Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies.
Locked on 03/05/2012 8:20:32 PM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:

Childish behavior



Skip to comments.

Saul And The Charismatics...
http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/saul-and-the-charismatics/ ^ | 02-14-12 | Bill Randles

Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: apostasy; charismatics; jesus; truth
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 101-150151-200201-250 ... 901-919 next last
To: Zuriel
Born of water = physical birth.

In context, He is talking about being born physically to Nicodemus. He never said that one had to be baptized. He used the word elsewhere so if He meant baptism in john 3, then He could have said it.

In Matthew, all He commands is that the disciples baptize. He never said that it was a requirement for salvation in that book.

The passage in Mark is controversial as to its authenticity and I see LOTS of people with lots to lose in their doctrine and theology hanging a lot of emphasis on a passage of Scripture of uncertain origin. I suppose that you also agree with the rest of that quote in Mark where Jesus finishes up by saying.....

Mark 16:15-18 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Therefore I trust that you also hold to the belief that all believers will speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick and see them healed, will pick up serpents with their hands and no deadly poison will hurt them.

I've noticed that certain groups like to use that passage to support their doctrine of baptism being necessary for salvation and ignore the rest of it (the signs that follow), while the charismatics like to use that verse to support the signs that follow but deny the necessity for baptism. Both groups pick which part of the passage to allow and disallow.

I can't recall that I've seen anyone hold to ALL that it teaches, that is the necessity of baptism for salvation and the signs which are to follow.

Salvation is a GIFT (Eph 2:8-9) and there is nothing you can do to earn it or qualify for it. There is passage after passage in the gospels where Jesus says that all one has to do is believe. The tax collector at the temple simply cried out for God's mercy and Jesus said that he want away justified. The thief on the cross didn't have time to be baptized.

Galatians 2:15-21 15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Baptism has become a work which people have added to faith in Christ so that they can feel like they did something to earn God's favor or that somehow they contributed to their own salvation somewhere, but all that does is leave room to boast. If the works of the Law didn't save, then no new work that man has decided to add to faith is going to save either.

151 posted on 02/20/2012 6:38:49 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: Zuriel
Likewise obedience to Acts 2:38 is not to be treated as an option, or not even necessary. The dead are in God’s hands. The living are to hear and obey his word, which is being faithful.

Thanks for the many comparisons you have assembled in this comment. They are interesting, and I wish a little time to consider them all. I saw your OTR association in another post to this theme. I have pressing commitments also. Certainly I believe that in the Old economy, the blood of bulls and goats propitiated The God by covering sin, but could never take it away. And that only the Blood of The Christ would both cover and wash it away. I've done more, but it's not complete -- economics call -- more later --

152 posted on 02/20/2012 7:28:31 AM PST by imardmd1 (Jude 3c "... earnestly contend for The Faith which was once delivered to the saints.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 138 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
So love never fails, but tongues - the supernatural power of tongues - will cease just as prophecies and partial knowledge will. Why Paul spoke of tongues and not healing, I don't know other than it is something God always will do. Because he said "prophecies" and "knowledge" is why I believe it is speaking of the completed revelation of God - the Bible. No new prophecy or unrevealed knowledge was omitted from it.

OK, I see the reasoning there. That makes sense.

153 posted on 02/20/2012 8:39:46 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: boatbums; metmom
I agree. Compare 1 Cor. 12:7 with Eph. 4:12-16 and 1 Cor. 13:8-13.

"For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the stature of the FULNESS OF CHRIST." Eph. 4:12,13. Also, we know that in 2 Tim. 3:15, it is the Scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation. That the man of God may be PERFECT, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Tim. 3:17.

If the Scriptures can make a man PERFECT, and these gifts were given to make us into a PERFECT MAN, and when that which is PERFECT is come, then I believe it is the PERFECT WORD of God, that Paul is speaking of in 1 Cor. 13. When God's perfect word has been completed. Which it has. And why in Revelation, Jesus Christ warns that if any man take away or add to this book, his part will be taken out of the book of life. "This book" refers to the whole word of God; not just Revelation. I believe the Book of Revelation is the end of God's Revelation to mankind, for His reasons and purposes. His Word has a beginning and an ending. IOW, that which is PERFECT HAS come: God's complete Word to mankind. All that He would have us know. There is now no reason for prophesy, or tongues, or partial knowledge. But love and charity never fail.

My opinion only. :)

154 posted on 02/20/2012 9:06:07 AM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: smvoice; boatbums

And a good one at that.


155 posted on 02/20/2012 10:45:41 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 154 | View Replies]

To: smvoice; metmom; boatbums

Am beginning to wonder what has happened to Holy Spirit’s leading and working in y’all’s lives.

Am busy on other writing projects . . . but goodness . . .

Please don’t let the tedious prissy junk from hell discombobalate you!

These still ARE the END TIMES

and

HOLY SPIRIT STILL IS VERY MUCH ALIVE AND WELL AND OVERTLY ACTIVE IN THEM.

All the counterfeit stuff is chaff. Why get lost amongst the chaff?


156 posted on 02/20/2012 2:25:49 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 154 | View Replies]

To: Quix

Not to worry. It’s just a matter of sorting some things out.


157 posted on 02/20/2012 2:54:26 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 156 | View Replies]

To: Quix; metmom; boatbums
Dear Brother in Christ, I will explain my thinking on this subject as it applies to the "last days" Paul wrote about in Scripture. And compare them to the "last days" Peter spoke about in Acts 2.

Peter's "last days" speak of revival, when all ISRAEL will be saved. I don't have my Bible in front of me, but I believe it is Acts 2 or 3 that he references Joel's prophecy of the last days before Christ returns. (Visions, dreams, tongues, etc.)

Paul's "last days" speak of apostacy. See 2 Tim. (people having itching ears, turning their ears from the truth, following doctrines of deceit, etc.).

The question is, are they speaking of the same "last days"? They can't be. One is speaking of REVIVAL. The other is speaking of APOSTACY.

I believe Paul's "last days" refers to the last days of the Church the Body of Christ. Everything we have now is by faith. Not by sight. And remember, tongues are for a "sign". To who? Israel. But Israel is blinded and set aside during this age of grace. So what good would tongues and other signs be to us? When the Body of Christ is raptured, signs will once again be forefront. Because Israel is forefront. They will be NECESSARY for tribulation saints.

At this time, they are not necessary for the body of Christ. All our blessings and inheritances are in the heavenlies. Not on things on this earth. That's why Paul tell us not to be concerned with things on this earth. We have the perfect Word of God, the COMPLETE REVELATION, as He has seen fit to give us. We know the beginning, the middle, and the end. What more could be added as extra-prophetic in order to make his final Amen in Revelation be added to?

I am NOT saying He doesn't perform miracles today. He most certainly does. He heals who He will and He doesn't who He doesn't. It is HIS will, not man's power of laying on of hands that He responds to .

We are told that we know how to be hungry and how to be full, how to be with and how to be without, how to be on top of the world, and how to be down in the ditch (so to speak), and that it is ALL through Christ strengthening us that we iive this life in this age of grace.

I pray you understand what I'm saying here. God Bless! smvoice

158 posted on 02/20/2012 3:17:09 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 156 | View Replies]

To: smvoice; Quix; boatbums

I know many charismatics use the Joel prophecy about the last days to justify what they consider the practice of the gifts as it seems to have been increasing in these days, but I agree with you here.

It’s obvious the *last days* prophecy referred to in Joel was fulfilled in Acts 2. We now have the Holy Spirit indwelling the hearts of believers everywhere since He has been poured out on us. I don’t think that that can be used to justify the claims of the apparent sudden rash of signs and wonders people are claiming.

And I hate to have to qualify it also, but that does NOT mean I don’t think they happen. It’s just that I don’t think they happen to the degree that many people claim. I think there’s a real lack of discernment about when it’s genuine and when it’s not that’s the problem.


159 posted on 02/20/2012 3:25:05 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: metmom; Zuriel
I agree. The ordinance of Baptism was never meant as a substitution nor an added part of faith for salvation. It is done as a testimony for what has happened internally. Even the Jewish ordinance of "mikvahs", which were ceremonial washings, were outward acts. The acts, in and of themselves, were not what caused the cleansing, it represented purity and holiness. No outward act can ever be what effects the purification. According to http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1541/jewish/The-Mikvah.htm:

    The mikvah as an institution is the victim of a popular misconception. Immersion in water is naturally associated with cleansing. To further complicate the issue, Jews historically were often barred by the authorities from using rivers in their cities for bathing. In response they built bathhouses, many with mikvahs in or near them. Together, these factors forged an inextricable link between the idea of mikvah and physical hygiene. But the mikvah never was a monthly substitute for a bath or shower. In fact, the Halachah stipulates that one must be scrupulously clean before immersing. To facilitate this requirement, preparation areas -- with baths and showers, shampoos, soaps, and other cleansing and beauty aids -- are a staple of the modern mikvah.

Hebrews 6:1,2 speaks of the "doctrine of baptisms" (plural). From http://www.scribd.com/doc/21641047/Baptism-or-Mikvah:

    The water of immersion (mikvah) in Rabbinic literature was referred to as the womb of the world,and as a convert came out of the water it was considered a new birth separating him from the pagan world. His status was changed and he was referred to as "a little child just born" or "a child of one day".We see the Brit Kadasha (New Testament) using similar Jewish terms as "born anew," "new creation," and "born from above."

    In a similar way, Rabbinic literature uses the term "born again"to refer to at least 8 different occurrences, each of them a life changing experience:

    •When a Gentile converts to become an Israelite (Hebrew).
    •Immersion of repentance (John’s baptism), similar to the previous point.
    •At age 13 when a Hebrew boy chooses to embrace God's covenant and be numbered with the believers.
    •When an individual gets married.
    •When an individual is crowned king
    •As a disciple of a Teacher/Rabbi, you are immersed in his name to show that you follow him.
    •When an individual becomes a Rabbi (Teacher).
    •When an individual becomes the head of a rabbinical school.

    The water is not used to remove any physical uncleanness, but rather as a symbolic spiritual cleansing and rebirth. The mikvah symbolizes moving from one state to another - from ritual impurity to ritual purity, from one phase of life to another.

When we respond to the message of the Gospel through repentance and faith, the ceremony of baptism is then done as a confirmation and testimony of the inward change. The ceremony, in and of itself, is not what imparts spiritual cleansing but the faith and trust of Jesus Christ by God's grace. Therefore, baptism is not what saves us nor does it cause the remission of sins, only the blood of Christ is able to do that.

160 posted on 02/20/2012 4:39:43 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies]

To: Quix; metmom; smvoice
Am beginning to wonder what has happened to Holy Spirit’s leading and working in y’all’s lives. Am busy on other writing projects . . . but goodness . . . Please don’t let the tedious prissy junk from hell discombobalate you! These still ARE the END TIMES and HOLY SPIRIT STILL IS VERY MUCH ALIVE AND WELL AND OVERTLY ACTIVE IN THEM. All the counterfeit stuff is chaff. Why get lost amongst the chaff?

I understand why this is such a critical issue with you, dear Quix, but please know that I am not attacking you. The Holy Spirit has never ceased working and leading in my life nor do I discount God's power and miracles but on this specific area I trust what Scripture clearly says. What you call "prissy junk from hell" is no such thing, but a calm assurance after decades of study in God's Word as well as observation and personal contact with those in the Charismatic movement. I can disagree with you without calling what you do demonic and evil because I have come to know you are sincere and have a heart for the Lord. Your experiences are what you seem to be using to interpret Scripture rather than letting Scripture interpret your experiences.

This is between you and God and it is not my place to tell you what you can and cannot do in your walk with Christ. In the same way, you should not automatically presume those who do not have your same life experiences or see things the same as you do are evil and wrong. I allow that God deals with each of us in his own way, please give us that same consideration.

161 posted on 02/20/2012 4:56:18 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 156 | View Replies]

To: metmom; smvoice
And I hate to have to qualify it also, but that does NOT mean I don’t think they happen. It’s just that I don’t think they happen to the degree that many people claim. I think there’s a real lack of discernment about when it’s genuine and when it’s not that’s the problem.

That is exactly why I doubt the majority of claims to have the "anointing of the Holy Spirit" as demonstrated by signs and miracles. When the Apostles and early disciples went out establishing the church those gifts were used by God to signify authority of their words and teachings. In the same way, those today who use these supposed "powers" as signs of their authority for God, draw believers to their ministries and, if they were genuine, would NEVER have to be faked. What we KNOW from Scripture, is that when the Apostles set out to lead the lost to Christ, their primary purpose in using those gifts was to save souls. Afterward, they established local assemblies of believers and traveled on to the next mission field.

Paul corrected the Corinthians for showing off their "gifts" during their meetings and he told them it was NOT for the believers, but the unbelievers to bring them to Christ. For that reason, I do not believe what "passes" for tongues today - and it IS strange that this one gift is singled out because it is the only one that can be "faked" - simply because it is rarely ever the same experience as that spoken of in Acts, where people hear the Gospel in their own language and come to saving faith in Christ.

Too many false teachers are out there today who use this as a hook to bring people in and they preach an accursed Gospel. That, to me, proves that it is not from God. Like you, I do not discount that God still works miracles today and that is why I do not condemn people - that is the job of the Holy Spirit - I just ask for better discernment, too.

162 posted on 02/20/2012 5:19:58 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 159 | View Replies]

To: metmom; boatbums

Glad my driving got rerouted for a couple of days. I shall be able to respond tonight, and possibly tomorrow night, as well.

boatbums, since you agree with metmoms, I’ve invited you in this response, and have included the Hebrews 6:1,2 passage you chose to point out.

**Born of water = physical birth.**

That’s man made tradition, in an effort to discount the Lord explicit commands for baptism. The comparison of natural and spiritual birth are clearly explained two chapters earlier: “which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” John 1:13. No mention of water in that verse.

**In context, He is talking about being born physically to Nicodemus.**

No he’s not. Give the Lord credit for knowing that he didn’t have to tell Nicodemas, that for a man to be born of the Spirit, he first had to born naturally.

An interesting fact to consider concerning John 3:5: The is no comma in the phrase “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit”.

**In Matthew, all He commands is that the disciples baptize. He never said that it was a requirement for salvation in that book.**

“He never said..”?
No, he just said to teach ALL nations, baptizing them....

**The passage in Mark is controversial as to its authenticity**

Really? While you’re at it, why don’t you go ahead and place Acts 2:38 in the same questionable authenticity category.

Are you saying that there are no miracles in the church today? I’ll tell you that there are none where there is no faith.

**Therefore I trust that you also hold to the belief that all believers will speak in tongues**

How do you interpret John 3:8? “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but CANST NOT TELL whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is BORN of the SPIRIT.”

When someone says they accept the Lord as their savior, I understand it, and know where it came from. When Peter and John laid hands on the Samaritans, they received the Holy Ghost. Simon the sorcerer, who had witnessed the miracles that Philip did (and didn’t offer money for that power) offered money to Peter and John for the power to give people the Holy Ghost. Yes, I believe he had witnessed them speaking in tongues. The most unruly member of the body tamed by the Spirit of God. Are there people faking it? No doubt, but they are dealt with, one way or the other.

**Salvation is a GIFT (Eph 2:8-9) and there is nothing you can do to earn it or qualify for it. There is passage after passage in the gospels where Jesus says that all one has to do is believe.**

Do you see your own contradiction......”there is nothing you can do........all one has to do..”?

You have to believe, he made that plain, and a couple of my favorite verses are: He that believeth on me AS THE SCRIPTURE hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39

**Galatians 2:15-21**

From Romans thru Revelation, those letters were written to the church in that city, and to the church as a whole. Most start out in the first chapter refering to those ‘called to be saints’ or ‘the saints at...’. They are written to people that have already been born again, or people that already know what makes one born again.

While Hebrews doesn’t start out with a similar phrase, the writer reminds them of their beginnings in 6:1,2:

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying AGAIN the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement.”

The people that the writer is talking to already have their ‘foundation’ laid. They followed the ‘principles of the doctrine of Christ’, which happens to include the ‘doctrine of baptisms’.

The logical conclusion is that the emphasis of water baptism in the NAME of Jesus, and it resulting in remission of sins, is that that is when he applies his blood to that persons soul. How else can it remit sins as he says it will.


163 posted on 02/20/2012 8:49:54 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies]

To: smvoice; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; jeremiah; Lera; ..
TONGUES ETC POST FEB 20 2012 TO SMVOICE ET AL

Dear Brother in Christ, I will explain my thinking on this subject as it applies to the "last days" Paul wrote about in Scripture. And compare them to the "last days" Peter spoke about in Acts 2.

Thanks for your kind reply Dear Sister in Christ.

Peter's "last days" speak of revival, when all ISRAEL will be saved. I don't have my Bible in front of me, but I believe it is Acts 2 or 3 that he references Joel's prophecy of the last days before Christ returns. (Visions, dreams, tongues, etc.)

Are you claiming that Peter's "last days of revival" have run with increasing revival the last 2000 years?

Certainly I believe there will yet be at least another wave of 'revival' before A) The Rapture and/or B) the Great Tribulation. There will also be a great falling away.

And, I believe the children of Israel will be witnessed to by the 2 Witnesses as well as the 144,000.

I personally believe those efforts will be directed primarily toward Israelites. There may be some carry-over toward others who've known the Bible but failed to make the grade spiritually until wayyyyyyy late in the schedule.

Paul's "last days" speak of apostacy. See 2 Tim. (people having itching ears, turning their ears from the truth, following doctrines of deceit, etc.).

I don't know when there has NOT been such goings on. And, certainly this era is INCREASINGLY rife with such stuff. However, GOD WILL STILL LIKELY BRING ABOUT HIS MAJESTIC DEMONSTRATIONS OF HIS POWER; HIS TRUTHS AND HIS REVIVAL prior to lowering the boom wholesale. It's His nature.

The question is, are they speaking of the same "last days"? They can't be. One is speaking of REVIVAL. The other is speaking of APOSTACY.

Of course they can. This church era is a long time. The birth pangs leading up to the Great Tribulation from the formation of Israel to the specific day of the beginning of the Great Tribulation is a long time--decades long.

The Welsh Revival and the Azusa St revival were both against a backdrop of rank apostasy in the culture at large.

God is well able to sweep a region, a State, a Nation, the world with Revival before He lowers the boom horrifically during the Great Tribulation. It might be for a week or a month or 3 months or whatever--He is not limited by world wide apostasy IF HE WANTS TO DO IT 'strongly enough.'

imho, it would be His Nature to trigger a massive last revival; harvest those souls at the peak of their relationships with Him and then let the world sink back into its raging apostasy and go thusly into the Great Tribulation having witnessed a last grand demonstration of His Grace, Mercy and Salvation.

I believe Paul's "last days" refers to the last days of the Church the Body of Christ. Everything we have now is by faith. Not by sight.

Everything? What verse declares that? There is none.

The exhortation is that WITHOUT FAITH, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD. And WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH, IS SIN.

Perhaps you missed my exhortation on receiving the gift of tongues above--BY FAITH.

The LAST DAYS also includes the TRIBULATION PERIOD--when, hopefully, the Church is in Heaven at the Married Supper of The Lamb. And, some have, rightly, I think, asserted that The Tribulation period is designed partly to bring Israel back into intimate relationship with Jehovah and their Authentic Messiah.

And remember, tongues are for a "sign". To who? Israel. But Israel is blinded and set aside during this age of grace. So what good would tongues and other signs be to us? When the Body of Christ is raptured, signs will once again be forefront. Because Israel is forefront. They will be NECESSARY for tribulation saints.

Uhhhhhhhhh hello? Is it your impression that demons and demonic demonstrations have been on vacation the last 2000 years?

Is it your impression that Christians have been expected to battle demonic forces IN THEIR FLESH?

Is it your impression that Christians are called to wage war with principalities & powers in high places spiritually neutered with their portion of Holy Spirit's miraculous potency in the closet or 'gone fishing?'

That's definitely NOT my Biblical understanding by a great long shot.

And that's DEFINITELY NOT BEEN MY EXPERIENCE either. It has frequently taken all the praying in tongues, praying for healing; praying for supernatural assistance of various types etc. to do whatever God was calling me to do in various situations.

My understanding of Scripture is that tongues are for believers in some respects/contexts and unbelievers in others.

PAUL’S INSTRUCTIONS FOR
NORMAL CHURCH
MEETING & CONGREGATIONAL LIFE
IN THE CHURCH AGE
ARE IN
I COR 12-14:

New Living Translation (©2007)
So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.

.

That sounds like for unbelievers, period, I assume many would think. Not so fast. Stay tuned.

I Cor 13:
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

.

Folks who point to I Cor 13 as a rationalization for Cessationism must not have their thinking caps on. For their shabby argument to hold a drop of water, they’d have to consider that INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE HAS ALSO ALREADY PASSED AWAY. . . . that we fully know GOD AND EACH OTHER 100% thoroughly and completely. Cue laughing gif.



1 Corinthians 14

Intelligibility in Worship
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

.

Hmmmmmmm Is Paul contradicting himself? Not at all.

He’s merely noting that when one is speaking to God only—e.g. when praying in tongues—ONLY GOD UNDERSTANDS. “No one” else understands—which SHOULD take care of the nonsense that tongues CAN ONLY BE known languages of earth.

So, one verse is emphasizing one type of tongue AND INTERPRETATION and/or a known language in front of unbelievers.

And the other verse is emphasizing a different operation of tongues praying alone to God.

I Cor 14:
4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves {NOT UNBELIEVERS},

.

Here we see a verse again emphasizing tongues edifying one’s self—a BELIEVER.

but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

.

Here we see again . . . clearly . . . for those with eyes to see and ears to hear—PAUL EQUATES the gift of prophecy prophesying in a group with the gifts of tongues AND INTERPRETATION in a group. This passage seems to emphasize tongues and interpretation as well as prophecy edifying both believers and unbelievers.

Sooooo when does tongues help an unbeliever? WHEN there’s interpretation and the unbeliever’s ‘mail is read.’ It also happens when an unbeliever hears a tongues that is his own language and he knows that the speaker does not know his language. This happened with a friend of mine in 3 different Native American tribes on one trip. She just thought she was praying quietly in tongues. Turns out, according to old timers who came up to her afterwards, in each case, she was presenting a summary of the Gospel story in the more ancient and more formal version of each tribal language.

Evidently she should have told the unsaved hearers to ignore the Gospel she’d just shared with them because she was a woman and speaking in tongues. /sarc

Dr Walter Martin—not normally given to applauding such things . . . was touched by a case involving his throat Dr. The Dr had received a message in tongues and interpretation by a couple in a house church prayer meeting about the DR becoming a missionary to Armenia, I think it was. Everything the message in tongues and interpretation shared was true or came true over the following months, to the letter . . . and gave the Dr the confidence to follow his leading to become a powerful missionary to Armenia.

Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

.

Again—what is the purpose of the tongues—prayer alone to God or ministry to others and the group? Behave accordingly. God uses each accordingly.

13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

.

That should silence the folks who seemingly mindlessly claim that ALL TONGUES MUST INVOLVED KNOWN LANGUAGES AND INTERPRETATION. Paul just noted that HIS MIND WAS UNFRUITFUL. IT is his spirit that is being built up, edified by Holy Spirit’s conveying the meaning to God via a sequence of sounds Paul does not know as a language.

15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. {BOY IS THAT AN INCONVENIENT VERSE for cessationists! Sigh} 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

{OF COURSE. As explained above}

20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:

“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]

{INDEED. When they won’t listen to relatively plain Scripture, don’t expect them to listen to sound teaching!}

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

.

See my explanations above. They should be clear enough for those earnestly seeking God’s clarity on such matters.

At this time, they are not necessary for the body of Christ.

REALLY? Who said? The Bible doesn’t say that.

Logic doesn’t say that.

Mankind hasn’t changed.
Satan hasn’t Changed
God hasn’t changed!

Given the lawlessness and massive demonic forces unleashed uniquely in the END TIMES, THE GIFTS OF HOLY SPIRIT ARE DESPERATELY NEEDED FAR MORE NOW THAN EVER IN HISTORY—INCLUDING IN THE ACTS 2 ERA.

All our blessings and inheritances are in the heavenlies. Not on things on this earth.

Where’d you get that notion? Not from Scripture! It’s not in there.

Scripture teaches we are to walk IN HIS SPIRIT, IN HIS BLOOD, IN HIS ABUNDANT LIFE, IN HIS HEALING, IN HIS EMPOWERING, IN HIS SUPERNATURAL GUIDANCE, IN HIS SUPERNATURAL PROVISION . . . SILVER AND GOLD HAVE I NONE—IN THE NAME OF JESUS—GET UP AND WALK . . . THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE . . .

!NOW!

That Scripture does NOT SAY “shall follow them that believe after they get to Heaven.”

Who needs such in heaven??? Sigh.
There’s no need for healing there!
There’s no need for supernatural provision there.
There’s no need for a banquet in the presence of our enemies there.
There’s no need for supernatural guidance there.

That's why Paul tell us not to be concerned with things on this earth.

Oh, really? There’s no evidence in Scripture that’s why Paul said such a thing!

Paul talks about keeping our eyes on Christ . . . on The Prize . . . and not getting bogged down by the dreadful and deceitful things of the earth. He’s talking about our proper focus while running the race. That has nothing to do with spiritual gifts . . . except perhaps that those who keep their eyes on Jesus are more powerfully anointed in their spiritual giftings.

We have the perfect Word of God,

Actually, we don’t. We have flawed translations. The original autographs are not available.

the COMPLETE REVELATION, as He has seen fit to give us. We know the beginning, the middle, and the end.

Yeah, we have sufficient Word to establish and maintain our end of an intimate walk with God well able to land us in Heaven by His Grace, Blood and Spirit. Though John noted that probably the world could not contain all the books necessary to describe all Christ said and did. And, we do know something of the beginning, middle and end.

However, we do NOT know–from strictly the printed word--who to marry vs who not to marry;
Which house to buy or not buy;
Which job to take or not take;
Which city to move to or not move to;
Which stranger to reach out to with the Gospel or not reach out to;
. . .

What more could be added as extra-prophetic in order to make his final Amen in Revelation be added to?

There’s no need to add rebelliously to Revelation or anything else in Scripture AS ENSCRIPTURATED SCRIPTURE.

However,

IF

Cessationists were CONSISTENT on that score—their churches would never ever hear another sermon. All they’d do is stand up and read Scripture to one another. And if they had anything to say to one another, they’d just quote Bible verses to one another.

Sigh.

I am NOT saying He doesn't perform miracles today. He most certainly does. He heals who He will and He doesn't who He doesn't. It is HIS will, not man's power of laying on of hands that He responds to .

Yes and no. Most times, if hands are NOT laid on . . . or a word of knowledge is not pronounced over someone, they don’t get healed.

God DOES SOMEWHAT restrict His miracles to the operations of His Spirit THROUGH His gifted kids. He chooses to do it that way MOST OF THE TIME. It IS HIS design. THAT IS HIS delight. CERTAINLY IT IS ALL HIS DOING directly and through His kids. Certainly everything good comes from above as the Bible says.

We are told that we know how to be hungry and how to be full, how to be with and how to be without, how to be on top of the world, and how to be down in the ditch (so to speak), and that it is ALL through Christ strengthening us that we live this life in this age of grace.

AMEN. TRUE. Doesn’t have anything to do with minimizing the Gifts of Holy Spirit in this age, however.

Paul said that he would that ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES. Rationalizing that away is NOT BIBLICAL.

I pray you understand what I'm saying here. God Bless! smvoice

158 posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 4:17:09 PM by smvoice

I think I did. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.

164 posted on 02/20/2012 9:31:08 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: Zuriel; metmom
The logical conclusion is that the emphasis of water baptism in the NAME of Jesus, and it resulting in remission of sins, is that that is when he applies his blood to that persons soul. How else can it remit sins as he says it will.

No, it is NOT a logical conclusion that water baptism is when the blood of Christ is applied to a soul and sins are remitted. To be baptized "for the remission of sins" simply means it is symbolic of what happened by faith. Jesus said his blood was shed "for the remission of sins" (Matt. 26:28) and in Acts 10:43 it says, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Ephesians 1:7 says, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace". Remission of sins means the forgiveness of sins. It is ONLY by faith - the act of will that believes and trusts in the promises of God. Belief, then is not a "work" in the sense of it being a deed or act, but one of receiving the gift of God. The way you are saying it, it sounds like until one is physically water baptized, he is not spiritually saved. Add to that the contention that even those who ARE water baptized are not saved unless there is saving faith first.

Titus 3:5-7 says, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

The act of being water baptized is a "righteous" thing we should do, because it is an act of obedience demonstrating an identification with Christ's death, burial and resurrection, but the act itself is NOT what saves us. The "washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit" has been poured out on us through God's grace when we first believed - it is not even talking about water baptism here.

You can believe what you want, of course, but know that any good works or deeds added to faith makes salvation by grace void and changes it to merit based. That is exactly why those religions that teach water baptism is required to be saved will also add other works into the mix in order to STAY saved. And no matter how you cut it, that is no longer grace that saves. One more thing...do you really believe that water baptism "saves" a person? Can they become "unsaved" by their deeds? If someone has accepted Christ as Savior but gets killed on his way to be water baptized, is he saved anyway in your religion?

I know you're probably glad to be off the road for a bit. We had some trucker friends and they HATED winter driving. Thanks for including me in the discussion.

165 posted on 02/20/2012 9:57:21 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 163 | View Replies]

To: Quix

Quix, thanks, well written. You are a blessing.

= = =
REF

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2846555/posts?page=164#164


166 posted on 02/21/2012 1:11:03 AM PST by Joya (http://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/the_coming_of_the_lord_jesus_his_church.html)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 164 | View Replies]

To: Joya

THANKS for your kind reply.


167 posted on 02/21/2012 3:49:21 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 166 | View Replies]

To: Quix

Prayers for the People has a new header, “The Time Appointed: The Just Shall Live By Faith”

Swiftly approaches the day when all will not continue as it has since long before the fathers fell asleep. Many are the mockers, few are the just who live by faith. Behold, the warnings have been proclaimed, “A day has been stored for judgment! Repent!” Dear Faithful, do not weary or fret at the works of the unjust, the time appointed comes, judgment will be rendered.

The LORD has not looked the other way, nor is HE slow to respond. The LORD is patient; not wishing that any soul should perish, but that all would come to repentance. Repent!

For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Habakkuk 2:3

Prophetic revelation insures the reality of fulfillment; in time all things divinely uttered by the HOLY SPIRIT must come to pass. The WORD was declared before the foundations were laid, HE is KING, HE has won, and HE will rule for all eternity. Sin must be judged and the wicked will be trodden in their wickedness, do not doubt this.

Do not be disheartened, do not fear, and do not worry about tomorrow.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,

The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17

= = =

http://www.prayersforthepeople.com/

= = =

The current phase of the moon is now on the home page of that site also, fyi. Have a good Tuesday. Joya


168 posted on 02/21/2012 4:30:08 AM PST by Joya (http://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/the_coming_of_the_lord_jesus_his_church.html)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 167 | View Replies]

I should have said, that was a QUOTE.

Link to the actual article

http://www.prayersforthepeople.com/id137.html


169 posted on 02/21/2012 4:34:14 AM PST by Joya (http://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/the_coming_of_the_lord_jesus_his_church.html)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 167 | View Replies]

To: Joya

THX THX


170 posted on 02/21/2012 4:52:54 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 169 | View Replies]

To: Quix
1 Corinthians 14:22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.

Here is a link to John G Lake ministries and Curry Blake. http://www.jglm.org/

Curry Blake has a very interesting and Scriptural perspective on healing and the gifts.

John G. Lake Ministry Divine Healing Technician Training Course
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Healing/JGL/JGL_Ministries.htm

It's a long session to listen to but has a really balanced perspective on the gifts and their practice in the church today. While I don't agree with 100% of what he says, I believe that he's absolutely right about much of our theology surrounding healing, at least

171 posted on 02/21/2012 5:26:57 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 164 | View Replies]

To: metmom; GiovannaNicoletta; smvoice; boatbums

It’s obvious the *last days* prophecy referred to in Joel was fulfilled in Acts 2. Uhhhhhh . . . depends on what one means by “fulfilled.” Acts2 was the INTRO, the BEGINNING of the CHURCH ERA.

Acts 2 and Paul in I Cor 12-14 are indicating what is expected to be normative for Christian life and witness IN THE CHURCH ERA.

We now have the Holy Spirit indwelling the hearts of believers everywhere since He has been poured out on us. I don’t think that that can be used to justify the claims of the apparent sudden rash of signs and wonders people are claiming.

I don’t know that the authentic ministry and manifestations of Holy Spirit NEED justification, per se.

I don’t know what you mean by a “sudden rash of signs and wonders.” Signs and wonders have been going on from well before John Wimber and will be continuing to escalate in frequency and dramatic flavor up to the end.

GOD IS NOT ABOUT TO leave all the fireworks to satan.

How could anyone think that God Holy Spirit begins dramatically in Acts 2 and ends DURING THE MOST CLIMACTIC TIME IN THE HISTORY OF ALL CREATION with a

Muffled whimper??

!NO WAY!

And I hate to have to qualify it also, but that does NOT mean I don’t think they happen. It’s just that I don’t think they happen to the degree that many people claim. I think there’s a real lack of discernment about when it’s genuine and when it’s not that’s the problem.

OF COURSE discernment is needed.

Yet, y’all seem to make it sound like DISCERNMENT is ONLY needed with dramatic manifestations ostensibly of Holy Spirit’s doing.

Nonsense. There’s plenty of discernment needed at the frozen chosen congregations by the dozen. Do you actually believe that such ministers ONLY get the Holy Spirit stuff wrong? LOL.

Folks who refuse to hear Holy Spirit about gifts of The Spirit get a lot of things wrong. And, even when they get a lot right, there’s plenty of spiritual self-righteousness; organizational idolatry and the like . . . plenty stuff to need discernment about.

What confuses me a bit is . . . the operation of the gifts of Holy Spirit tends to attract tons of assaults from satan’s crew as well as their allies in denominations hostile to such. What on earth are folks who supposedly BELIEVE in Holy Spirit’s work in this era throwing so many rocks at such operations?

Have the RC’s & Replacementarians et al taken a vacation from their rock throwing that we need to start throwing rocks at ourselves?

Sigh.

172 posted on 02/21/2012 5:34:30 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 159 | View Replies]

To: metmom

I think Curry Blake is accurate on a lot of that stuff, too.


173 posted on 02/21/2012 5:36:07 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 171 | View Replies]

To: boatbums; GiovannaNicoletta; smvoice; metmom
The Holy Spirit has never ceased working and leading in my life nor do I discount God's power and miracles but on this specific area I trust what Scripture clearly says.

Good. Though I don’t know how much we’d disagree about “what Scripture clearly says.”

What you call "prissy junk from hell" is no such thing, but a calm assurance after decades of study in God's Word as well as observation and personal contact with those in the Charismatic movement.

Uhhhh . . . depends on what we’re talking about.

IF we are talking about the cessationist contention that the Biblical gifts of Holy Spirit in I Cor 12-14 and Acts 2 have CEASED and do not operate in our current era . . .

THAT believe and doctrine IS from the pit of hell. It would be unloving to avoid telling anyone that truth. That truth can set folks free and bring folks closer to God.

Am happy to give folks respect for their earnest Biblical walks with God.

I’m not very willing to respect hogwash and certainly not hogwash from hell.

I can disagree with you without calling what you do demonic and evil because I have come to know you are sincere and have a heart for the Lord.

Your experiences are what you seem to be using to interpret Scripture rather than letting Scripture interpret your experiences.

Sigh. Again . . . that is a nonsensical distinction.

1. That’s not what I do.

2. There is NO AWARENESS THAT THERE EVEN IS A BIBLE

APART FROM one’s EXPERIENCE of the paper and ink.

Pretending that one’s EXPERIENCE of Holy Spirit’s workings is worthless EXPERIENCE while one’s EXPERIENCE of paper and ink is flawless EXPERIENCE

IS unmitigated, duplicitous, double-standard, irrational NONSENSE.

This is between you and God and it is not my place to tell you what you can and cannot do in your walk with Christ.

Thanks. In the same way, you should not automatically presume those who do not have your same life experiences or see things the same as you do are evil and wrong. I allow that God deals with each of us in his own way, please give us that same consideration.

True, to a point. God does NOT support doctrines of demons from hell. It is not loving to flatter, molly-coddle and excuse doctrines of demons from hell. If you expect me to do that, you will be greatly disappointed.

I would expect any loving Brother or Sister to tell me anything they saw me doing or saying that Scripture would indicate was a demonic doctrine from hell.

I appreciate your kind reply.

174 posted on 02/21/2012 6:09:13 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 161 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
God has begun to deal with those claiming to be Christian and doing awful things. He’s not done yet.

Nevertheless, the counterfeits of tongues, healings, miracles, . . . the sham whatever does not truly negate the authentic. The authentic will always rise to the top, sooner or later.

I’m super thankful for tongues and what it has meant in my relationship to God and my ministry to others.

I’m not abused by abuses of any kind pretending to be kosher Christian. And there are plenty abuses of Scripture in the frozen chosen churches as much as in the Pentecostal churches. They are just of a different, less flashy variety.

175 posted on 02/21/2012 8:33:28 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 162 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
It isn't saying that all the gifts to the church or the fruit of the Holy Spirit - which also includes love - will cease. I Corinthians 13:8-10 says, "Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.".

So love never fails, but tongues - the supernatural power of tongues - will cease just as prophecies and partial knowledge will. Why Paul spoke of tongues and not healing, I don't know other than it is something God always will do.

Because he said "prophecies" and "knowledge" is why I believe it is speaking of the completed revelation of God - the Bible. No new prophecy or unrevealed knowledge was omitted from it.

Sounds like a flying leap of illogic, to me. In I Cor 13 . . . INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE CEASED for that passage of Scripture to have been FULFILLED. Therefore, using I Cor 13 as a justification to claim ANY CESSATION of Holy Spirit’s gifts is GROSSLY BOGUS.

Perhaps folks are different where you are . . . but all the even authentic Christians I know are NOT omniscient, like God—about ANYthing. They don’t even know ALL the FULL KNOWLEDGE about THEMSELVES! I doubt you do, either.

Some people even say that tongues is some kind of "heavenly" language, the language of angels, but I know it can't be that simply because Paul said it would "be stilled" or stop. Obviously we will all speak some kind of language in heaven, but it will not be the same as the tongues in I Cor. 13.

Uhhhhhh . . I don’t think that assumption is well thought-out. Paul is talking about the gifting of tongues and of tongues and interpretation as gifts of Holy Spirit for the Church Age being ended—NOT necessarily any of the language(s) tongues speakers used—including any “Heavenly languages.”

However, I do agree that too much emphasis is placed on the "showy" outward demonstrations of tongues - which Paul said was the least of the gifts. Each person will answer to God for however he uses the gifts God gives and all of them are for the ultimate glory of God.

Plenty true.

Just as folks where buttons were labeled unChristian began to wear flashy Chinese frog knot closures . . . Man has an infinite capacity to be vain-glorious; self-righteous; arrogant; given to grand standing; power-mongering; !!CONTROLLING!!; preening; prancing; pontificating; etc. etc. etc. The counterfeit never negates the authentic. It only makes the counterfeiter subject to judgment.

176 posted on 02/21/2012 8:51:14 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 147 | View Replies]

To: imardmd1
My suggestion is that if you want to "hear" the voice of The Comforter, you take down your Bible and get under a qualified discipler who has "been there before," and start learning more about the Man whose Kingdom is not of this world. He will testify of The Lord Jesus Christ, (quietly) bringing your entire attention upon The Christ, His Person, and His Work. There is no shortcut to being discipled to learn His Will and His Way. "But whoso looketh into the Perfect Law of Liberty and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (Jas 1:25)

Are you following another gospel of a different kind than that proclaimed by Paul?

your link re the Kingdom of God vs The Kingdom of Heaven.

1. I’ve been discipled by some wonderful men. . . . most faithfully and en-durably by One from Galilee.

2. Have long been faithful to the Gospel of Jesus Christ whom Paul preaches.

3. Evidently you have not read Cessationist Randy Alcorn’s well done HEAVEN.

4. The distinction between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God is a moot one relative to the issues related to Cessationism. Slick dodge, though.

5. The fact remains . . . The coming Kingdom of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is a most plausible focus of the I Cor 13 mention of “when that which is perfect comes.”

6. You might consider returning to your disciple. Seems to me some things in your theology were left undone or need a tune up or overhaul. Though I'd suggest finding one more Biblically grounded, this time.

177 posted on 02/21/2012 9:18:17 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies]

To: Zuriel; boatbums
The logical conclusion is that the emphasis of water baptism in the NAME of Jesus, and it resulting in remission of sins, is that that is when he applies his blood to that persons soul. How else can it remit sins as he says it will.

You need to be really careful about applying the wisdom of man or the wisdom of the world, or human reasoning to Scripture.

Galatians 3:1-14 1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

178 posted on 02/21/2012 9:29:48 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 163 | View Replies]

To: Zuriel

You may be sincere, but you’re been very misled on the issue of water baptism. You have imposed works (water baptism) upon salvation. That’s a serious no, no my friend! You’re adding to the proper understanding of God’s word. You’re involved in an errant sect.


179 posted on 02/21/2012 1:28:14 PM PST by evangmlw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 144 | View Replies]

To: Quix; metmom; smvoice
Folks who refuse to hear Holy Spirit about gifts of The Spirit get a lot of things wrong. And, even when they get a lot right, there’s plenty of spiritual self-righteousness; organizational idolatry and the like . . . plenty stuff to need discernment about. What confuses me a bit is . . . the operation of the gifts of Holy Spirit tends to attract tons of assaults from satan’s crew as well as their allies in denominations hostile to such. What on earth are folks who supposedly BELIEVE in Holy Spirit’s work in this era throwing so many rocks at such operations?

And folks who refuse to hear the Holy Spirit inspired Holy Scriptures about their "favorite" gift tend to also get other doctrines wrong, too. Why is there such a fierce defense of tongues? Even to the point of accusing fellow Christians - who agree on ALL the major tenets of the Christian faith - as being pawns of Satan or in league with the enemies of Christ? There is something strange going on whenever this one issue is in dispute and it tells me that those caught up in it are held hostage by their experiences.

When I spoke about judging experiences by Scripture rather than the other way around, what I so earnestly wanted to communicate is that, no matter what our experiences are, are we able to stand back from them and see them objectively in the light of God's word? Apparently, some can't. If someone claimed to have the gift of healing, wouldn't their experiences prove to them and others if, that was indeed their gift, it was genuine? Now, I know that alleged "faith healers" have fabricated and faked healings in order to dupe supporters but, if I came to them for physical healing from, say, blindness, wouldn't I know if I had truly been healed? If I could go from darkness to clear vision because of their laying hands upon me, then I could verify that had happened. Yet, how many of these charlatans have huge "revivals" and tent meetings and people line up 2 blocks long to be healed and they go away disheartened because they went away no better than they came? Their faith is blamed for why they weren't healed instead of who really is to blame - the false teacher giving false hope.

Why is it that these same teachers also claim other gifts such as "slaying people in the Spirit", giving them the gift of tongues, "holy laughter" and other things that are nowhere found in Scripture that are showy and heap praise upon the preacher rather than the Lord? In the same way, tongues can be and are used as a badge of spirituality when Paul said it was the least of the gifts and the others should more earnestly be desired. The Corinthians were admonished by Paul because they were doing just that and his corrections to them were NOT to praise them but to get them to see the seriousness of seeking after glory that belongs to God alone.

Will there be an outpouring of the Spirit in the last days? Yes, Scripture says so. But does this mean He will do that in ways that the devil can fake? I do not believe He will. Will the two witnesses and the 144,000 be given supernatural abilities to lead people to the Messiah? Absolutely! But this will not be a time where it will need to be faked in order to convince people simply because it will be REAL! Signs and wonders WILL happen in those last days - to me, that is speaking of the Tribulation - but we are not there yet. And God will not allow Satan to counterfeit his power - it will be impossible for him to do so anyway. Everything Satan ever did was try to imitate God and every time he failed. He will ALWAYS fail. God's gifts are genuine. But they are HIS to give and to remove when their purpose is fulfilled and when he says that certain ones HAVE BEEN, I accept that no matter what my experiences may say.

180 posted on 02/21/2012 6:05:54 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 172 | View Replies]

To: boatbums; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; ...
And folks who refuse to hear the Holy Spirit inspired Holy Scriptures about their "favorite" gift tend to also get other doctrines wrong, too.

Where is the evidence that I refuse to hear Holy Spirit inspired Holy Scriptures about anything? Where is the evidence that tongues is my ‘favorite’ gift? Neither applies to me.

Why is there such a fierce defense of tongues?

I’ll tell you, Dear Sister in Christ. When I see no one else standing up for a valid Biblical Gifting of Holy Spirit greatly useful in these end times, I’m willing to step in the gap.

HOLY SCRIPTURE DECLARES GOD’S ATTITUDE ABOUT TONGUES:

I COR 14:
5 I wish you could all speak in tongues,

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

.

I know from Scripture AND from experience that tongues ARE authentic gifts of Holy Spirit for anointed use in our era.

I also know that because God uses them—particularly initially—to tweak up folks’ humility—that satan is particularly doubly eager to trash them every way he can.

I’m happy to support something of Holy Spirit he’s so intent on corrupting, counterfeiting and trashing.

Even to the point of accusing fellow Christians - who agree on ALL the major tenets of the Christian faith - as being pawns of Satan or in league with the enemies of Christ?

Wellllll . . . I prefer to avoid accusing loved ones of anything negative. However, love also, in my construction on reality, includes being candid about loved ones in error or headed for a ditch.

And when folks seem to be gratuitously taking potshots at an authentic gift of Holy Spirit—without anyone standing up to be counted in behalf of Holy Spirit’s work—then I’ll be glad & honored to do it.

There is something strange going on whenever this oneissue is in dispute and it tells me that those caught up in it are held hostage by their experiences.

Nonsense, in my case. I consider it, Biblically, a secondary priority but an authentic gifting of Holy Spirit of significant potency in behalf of The Kingdom.

The vigor and zealousness comes from so many on Holy Spirit’s side seeming to be so comfortable taking pot-shots at an authentic gift of Holy Spirit.

When I spoke about judging experiences by Scripture rather than the other way around, what I so earnestly wanted to communicate is that, no matter what our experiences are, are we able to stand back from them and see them objectively in the light of God's word? Apparently, some can't.

True. Some can’t. Not my problem.

Seems to me some have so much mystifying hostility to an authentic gifting of Holy Spirit that THEY can’t stand back and see them objectively in the light of God’s Word.

If someone claimed to have the gift of healing, wouldn't their experiences prove to them and others if, that was indeed their gift, it was genuine?

Of course.

Now, I know that alleged "faith healers" have fabricated and faked healings in order to dupe supporters but, if I came to them for physical healing from, say, blindness, wouldn't I know if I had truly been healed? If I could go from darkness to clear vision because of their laying hands upon me, then I could verify that had happened.

Of course.

Yet, how many of these charlatans have huge "revivals" and tent meetings and people line up 2 blocks long to be healed and they go away disheartened because they went away no better than they came? Their faith is blamed for why they weren't healed instead of who really is to blame - the false teacher giving false hope.

Sadly horribly true.

Thankfully, Curry Blake is greatly different:

http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Healing/JGL/JGL_Ministries.htm

Great teaching and practice . . . and humorous as well.

Why is it that these same teachers also claim other gifts such as "slaying people in the Spirit", giving them the gift of tongues, "holy laughter" and other things that are nowhere found in Scripture that are showy and heap praise upon the preacher rather than the Lord?

Some such are hokey; some aren’t. Some are counterfeit; some aren’t. Some such are demonic; some aren’t.

Mostly, I agree with you on such scores—particularly about exalting a teacher rather than The Lord.

In the same way, tongues can be and are used as a badge of spirituality when Paul said it was the least of the gifts and the others should more earnestly be desired. The Corinthians were admonished by Paul because they were doing just that and his corrections to them were NOT to praise them but to get them to see the seriousness of seeking after glory that belongs to God alone.

Of course tongues can be so used. So can preaching. So can teaching. So can healing. So can prophecy.

Yes, Paul gave the Corinthians stern exhortations about the abuses. HOWEVER, THEY WERE GETTING THINGS DONE VIA HOLY SPIRIT’S GIFTS—which was more than some other groups. LOL.

Will there be an outpouring of the Spirit in the last days? Yes, Scripture says so. But does this mean He will do that in ways that the devil can fake? I do not believe He will.

I don’t know that God’s criteria is things that the devil can or can’t fake. Some things he can and many things he can’t fake—just as in Moses day. God’s criteria is to do what He wants to do—period.

Will the two witnesses and the 144,000 be given supernatural abilities to lead people to the Messiah? Absolutely! But this will not be a time where it will need to be faked in order to convince people simply because it will be REAL!

There seems to be an implication that Holy Spirit’s giftings today are extremely rarely real. I don’t find that true. It depends on where one looks. We have healings routinely in our congregation. We have authentic prophetic ‘words’ in our congregation that are borne out later or by those receiving such.

Signs and wonders WILL happen in those last days - to me, that is speaking of the Tribulation - but we are not there yet. And God will not allow Satan to counterfeit his power - it will be impossible for him to do so anyway. Everything Satan ever did was try to imitate God and every time he failed. He will ALWAYS fail. God's gifts are genuine. But they are HIS to give and to remove when their purpose is fulfilled and when he says that certain ones HAVE BEEN, I accept that no matter what my experiences may say.

There’s no Biblical basis for asserting that God is holding Holy Spirit’s giftings in the closet until Tribulation. None.

Certainly the giftings are for God’s purposes and to glorify Jesus. Certainly satan will always ultimately fail.

However, leading up to the Tribulation and during the Tribulation—there may be some interesting Mt Carmel type confrontations between God’s agents and satan’s.

I think, usually, it will be no contest—particularly for those with discernment—to know who’s manifestations belong to whom . . . and who’s winning. Certainly that’s to be the case, ultimately.

Thanks for your kind reply. I respect you and care for you.

181 posted on 02/21/2012 7:55:16 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 180 | View Replies]

To: boatbums; Quix; smvoice
Again,.....

1 Corinthians 14:22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.

And yet here we have believers by the churchful claim that tongues is the sign of the filling of the Holy Spirit to and for believers. It's become a status symbol for the have's compared to the have not's; a matter of spiritual pride.

Tongues is NOT a sign for believers. Those who claim so are wrong because they are contradicting the clear teaching of Scripture. Also, there is not ONE verse of Scripture anywhere that says that tongues is the sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that it's meant to be or be used as a prayer language, or that there's any more power in praying in tongues than praying in one's native language. It's all based on experience, ie traditions of men.

1 Corinthians 14:13-19 13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

In addition is the wrong teaching that every believer should have the gift of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:11 All these (gifts) are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

When a gift given to believers for the edification of the church becomes a status symbol, it's well past time to reevaluate what the church is teaching.

Additionally, Curry Blake has very unorthodox teaching on signs. That is that they are meant to validate or verify the message of the gospel of the kingdom, therefore what we've been doing, practicing them within the church, is wrong. They need to be being practiced out in the world before unbelievers to confirm the message we bear. (A very brief summary).

There is danger in accepting EVERYTHING as from God all in the name of nor wanting to reject what really is from God. But I agree with bb here. What God does will stand the test. For my part, I don't accept what I see on television as genuine because there is simply no way of knowing or verifying it.

I find the lifestyles, some of the teaching, and many of the methods of most of the so-called charismatic evangelists absolutely unScriptural, therefore I feel no obligation to believe that the miracles and tongues they claim are genuine.

182 posted on 02/21/2012 8:30:03 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 180 | View Replies]

To: Quix; boatbums; smvoice
I also know that because God uses them—particularly initially—to tweak up folks’ humility—that satan is particularly doubly eager to trash them every way he can.

When I hear people claim that speaking in tongues is a sign of having been filled with the Holy Spirit, it immediately creates a class of have's. It does NOT contribute to humility.

For the record, when one is truly filled with the Holy Spirit, they KNOW it. You don't NEED a *sign* to tell you that a God thing happened. It's such a powerful experience that it stands on its own.

If someone has or had an experience that is so indeterminate that they need a sign to validate that it was from God, then it wasn't. You CANNOT have an encounter with the living God and not know it.

By using tongues as the sign, people are sent away being told and sometimes believing, that something happened to them that in fact did not happen at all.

As far as being slain in the Spirit, I wish just one person would show me just ONE verse of Scripture to back that one up. Nobody 's done that yet.

183 posted on 02/21/2012 8:41:16 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 181 | View Replies]

To: evangmlw; metmom; boatbums

You folks probably hold Romans 10:9 and 13 as pillars in your message of salvation, along with Acts 16:31 and John 3:16.

Romans, like the other epistles, was written to believers, ‘those called to be saints’. They already knew about being ‘born of the water and the Spirit’, and that ‘he that believeth (no comma in the KJV) and is baptized shall be saved. And a clear confirming of those folks faith was addressed in Rom. 6 by Paul, who alluded to their being “buried with him in baptism into death” (that’s not Holy Ghost baptism, for the Spirit is not death but life). A few verses later Paul joyfully says to these church members:

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being THEN made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.” vrss 17,18.

Right after Acts 16:31, the keeper of the prison, and his household, was taught the word of the Lord and was baptized straightway. (doesn’t say ‘water’, but doesn’t say Spirit baptism either. It may have been both. But, per scriptures, Paul baptized folks in Corinth and Ephesus.

John 3:16 is a concluding statement of what the Lord spoke of in the previous words to Nicodemas.

To believe on Jesus, you have to believe on him ‘as the scripture hath said’, which includes his words.

But, you choose for baptism to mean water baptism when it is unavoidablely so (as the eunuch was plainly baptized in water), and not to be water baptism (as your interpretation of John 3:5) when convenient for your theology.

The eunuch is actually a perfect example of the Lord’s “believeth and is baptized” command.

Nicodemas, upon wondering how to be born of flesh again (”enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?”), was corrected by the Lord, who made it clear that the second birth is not natural (”that which is flesh is flesh”) but a spiritual birth; “born of the water (no comma) and of the Spirit”.

He goes on to explain the supernatural phenomenom of hearing one receive the Spirit in vs 8. He says it is that way for EVERY ONE that is BORN of the Spirit.

The Lord’s commissions (all of them are great commissions, by the way) all point to Acts 2:38,39, and his prophecies pointed there as well (i.e. John 3:8; 7:38,39).

You all say I am imposing works, when I am saying I’m following his and his apostles words (remember his prayer that people would believe on him according to THEIR words).

By Faith:

-Able offered unto God..
-Enoch...pleased God..
-Noah....moved with fear, prepared an ark
-Abraham, when he was called to GO....WENT..
-Sara received strength to conceive seed. (She probably was eating right, no doubt.)
-Isaac blessed Jacob..
-Jacob ..blessed both his sons..
-Joseph made commandment concerning his bones (Faithful in the promise of God taking his people out of Egpyt in the future)
-Moses was hid by his parents..
-Moses ...kept the passover..
they (the children of Israel) passed through the Red sea.. (they were baptised unto Moses in the cloud [no comma] and in the sea. excellent type and shadow of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38,39)
-the walls of Jericho fell down...compassed
-Rahab...received the spies

The OT heroes of faith offered animal sacrifices, as well as many works of faith, as the above list points out. We have been given the opportunity to experience, by His blood, this ‘new and living way’ We live in physical bodies, and faith in God’s ordinaces require physical effort. That’s God’s will.

Yes, Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:16, and Luke 24:47 all harmonize with Acts 2:38.

**You’re adding to the proper understanding of God’s word.**

Your opinion. You say that water baptism in the NAME (that’s key) of Jesus is not for the remission of sins. Then my opinion is that you folks are deleteing from the proper understanding of God’s word.

I’ll be glad to keep the discussion going as time permits.
Lord bless.


184 posted on 02/21/2012 9:01:17 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]

To: metmom
Guess where my Bible is turned to right now? I Corinthians 14! I have been studying it preparing to respond a bit more and you have said it so well. Thank you.

I Corinthians 14:6-12

Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

The true gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit was the ability to tell the Gospel to someone who did not speak the same language. In some cases, the person speaking in tongues was heard by others who all spoke different languages from each other - like those in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost from all over the known world - and they HEARD in each of their own languages. This gift was ALWAYS used for preaching the Gospel to the lost to win them to Christ. If that same gift is restored during the Tribulation, we can see exactly how God will use it - the same way for the same reason.

185 posted on 02/21/2012 9:10:32 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 182 | View Replies]

To: metmom
When I hear people claim that speaking in tongues is a sign of having been filled with the Holy Spirit, it immediately creates a class of have's. It does NOT contribute to humility.

I agree and some even intimate that this is the ONLY way for anyone to truly experience the filling of the Holy Spirit. That couple in my old church that I talked about before believed that "praying in the Spirit" meant praying in tongues, even though we are told not everyone will be given that gift. We are told in Ephesians 6:18, And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. So much for everyone being able to obey that if they don't have the gift of tongues! That's what I meant by judging experiences by Scripture and not the other way around. Too many people simply swallow whatever they're told and never search out the Scriptures to see if these things be so. How many people are NOT living their Christian lives to their fullest because they have the wrong teaching about the gifts of the Spirit? How many miss out because they never realize that their gift is faith, guidance or helping instead of tongues?

I Corinthians 12:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. And yet I will show you the most excellent way.

186 posted on 02/21/2012 9:30:54 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 183 | View Replies]

To: Zuriel; metmom; smvoice; evangmlw
All those Old Testament heroes demonstrated their faith by their deeds, of course, just as James speaks about showing our faith by our works BUT Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. He was declared righteous BEFORE he offered Isaac upon the altar in obedience to God. Rahab acted upon her faith when she hid Joshua and the other spies in Jericho, but it was by her faith that she was declared righteous. Genuine, new birth faith ALWAYS results in a changed life because the Holy Spirit takes up residence when faith is first exercised. The ordinance of baptism is also an act of obedience but faith MUST precede it and it is faith that brings righteousness. Paul only baptized a few people in water and he said to the Corinthians, "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius" (I Cor. 1:14) because he didn't want anyone to brag about being baptized by Paul. Strange thing for an Apostle to say if water baptism is what causes the remission of sins, isn't it?

And, BTW, I DO hold to Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:13 isn't too bad either, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 16:31 is Scripture, too "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Certainly the words of the Lord Jesus Christ in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." My particular favorite is John 10:27-30, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

You can go on believing it was your water baptism that was the moment you were saved and your sins were remitted, that your faith alone is not sufficient to save you - regardless what Scripture says. You can certainly go on holding that your obedience to all God's commandments keep you saved but just remember this, we are saved through God's grace BY faith and grace means unmerited and undeserved so if anything else must be added onto faith, it can no longer be through grace that we are saved.

Do you also believe that you can lose your salvation if you fail to keep all God's commandments or if you do not confess all your sins before you die? Is eternal life still a gift then if you have to earn it? Go back and read Hebrews chapter 11 again, I think you may have missed the point. Have a good night.

187 posted on 02/21/2012 10:13:39 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 184 | View Replies]

To: Quix
4. The distinction between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God is a moot one relative to the issues related to Cessationism. Slick dodge, though.

It is not moot and it is no dodge -- sorry you couldn't grasp the concept. Just helping you to navigate as to which Kingdom is the one that will be on the earth's surface when Jesus returns after the Tribulation. It will not be the Kingdom of God (which is not of this world ="kosmos"). It will be the Kingdom of Heaven, reconstituted and instituted, therefore it will not be perfect inasmuch as it will contain humans who still are infected with sin (but will not be permitted to engage in sinning (not until, that is, that their father is released from bondage for a short time and they rebel).

5. The fact remains . . . The coming Kingdom of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is a most plausible focus of the I Cor 13 mention of “when that which is perfect comes.”

You've published a lot of opinions not backed up by Bible facts. Please give me the Scriptural exegesis for your assumptions that leads directly to your conclusions, and which is compatible to the broader context.

The commands of The Christ is that His disciplers were to make disciples, who through maturation would then become disciplers for the next generation of disciples, successively through hundreds of generations of this method down to our time.

The purpose of a discipler is to have engrafted enough of the Scripture to draw a disciple's attention to the teaching of the Holy Spirit through the correct handling of that Precious Infallible Holy Word; and be under enough control of the Holy Spirit (infilled) to impart the instruction with both absolute precision and selfless love, despite resistance and rejection of false prophets and false doctrine. (Mt. 28:18-20, 2 Tim. 2:1-2, Phil. 3:17-19, 3 Jn. 9-11 for starters)

It is clear that life-long discipling is absolutely necessary in Christ's operations of the churches -- and that knowing the mind of The Christ would not be a bootstrap operation of an individual operating outside of the sphere of discipling. If one is trying to be a "self-taught" Biblicist, that would be contrary to the system that was decreed, set up, and practiced in the New Testament churches --as practiced by The Christ directly with His own disciples, and as a mechanism and a model to them.

Unhappily, though, this "self-taught" paradigm has spread throughout Christendom, "charismatic" or otherwise, and has supplanted prolonged personally supervised Biblical discipleship as God's principal method for bringing spiritual maturity by which The Faith is spread and implemented.

Such self-taught individuals, being undiscipled, seem to invariably produce incorrect doctrine (2 Pet. 3:15-18, where "unlearned" or "untaught" means "undiscipled"). One such variation is the false doctrine of "the perfect" (where perfect = finished, completed, mature, fully-formed, of full age) being something else than the complete, full, and now closed progressive revelation of His Word. That Word which is completely available to mankind now is completely sufficient for both imparting The Faith, and instructing in every phase of obedient practice.

- Today, a word of wisdom apart from that which already exists in the Word would make the Word imperfect (and it is not). A believer-disciple who can digest "strong meat" (Heb. 5:14) can discern both good and evil, when guided by the Holy Ghost speaking through the Word of Righteousness, is sufficient to find God's Will in a situation as The Spirit gives wisdom of application. Since the arrival of the completion of revelation, another word of knowledge cannot surpass it.

- Today, if there were inspired prophecy (and there is not) which could add to that which is already given, it would falsify the concept of the completion of revelation. But since it cannot, it would be redundant.

- Today, an unearthly tongue cannot move a soul more greatly to repentance and belief than the Holy Spirit's conviction spoken from the pages of The Bible, especially when on the tongue of a full-aged teacher/evangelist who is under the control of the Spirit. Neither can it improve a believer's practical maturity than when engaged in rightly dividing the Word of The Truth does.

- Discerning of spirits is not produced by some unevenly distributed talent outside that produced by Biblical maturity. Discernment is based on knowing the scope of that which The Holy Ghost has already revealed and which the mature disciple has exercised.

- Today, there is no forcing of the instant healing of a physical wound, infection, or debility on demand by, say, laying on of hands or slapping on the forehead. That kind of result is claimed but rarely, if ever, experienced; it is anecdotal and always seems to be reported but not judicially provable (though it is true that doctors provide the "hospitable" conditions, but The God applies the healing).

Without arguing or debating, it is my belief that the gospel characteristics of the so-called "charismatic renewal" is incorrect according to the Holy Scriptures, so it is another gospel of a different kind. What this practice seems to be is an attempt to short-circuit the otherwise lengthy experiential process of growth toward spiritual maturity developed through extended discipling and application. The claim by "charismatic" practitioners is that instant wisdom, knowledge, healing etc. can somehow be magically summoned on demand without obedience to Christ's commands to know the truth. Instant spirituality didn't work for the apostles. They had to impart spiritual development by progressive teaching (1 Thess 2:2,15), followed up by implementation of that teaching and rejecting an alternate doctrine.

In actuality, newborn spiritual infants today do need milk (1 Peter 2:2), the Word of The God (they do not need practice in glossolalia or divination by waiting for unlearned and untaught knowledge to suddenly appear)! But the corollary is that every one that useth milk (alone) is unskilful in the Word of Righteousness, for he(she) is a (spiritual) babe -- no matter what the chronological age or education. They have yet not been discipled through the newborn babe stage (brephos)(1 Pet 2:2); the infant (naypios)(Heb. 5:12-13) stage; the children stage (paidion)(1 Jn 2:13c); of which at that point have not yet brought acceptable fitness to instruct others in The Faith. They think they can lean on their own understanding.

The "strong meat" belongs to them that are grown up in the Lord--are of full age--who by reason of using Scripture (not infant-church gifts which have now ceased of themselves, vanished, been replaced by the perfect completed revealed Word of God), can discern by careful application. These are the ones who have graduated to the young adult (neaniskos)(1 Jn. 2:13b, 14b) stage, and then, through continued study and application grow into the fatherhood/elderhood final wise counselorship quality.

You will note that the ones displaying adulthood have overcome the Wicked One, and it is the Word of God (not charismatic gifts stated) that abides strongly in them. They will also be strong in administrations (pastors and ruling elders), operations (teachers and deacons), and evangelists, who can successfully wield the Sword of the Spirit, the "hrema" = spoken Word of God (Eph. 6:17b; Rom. 10:8,17), while controlling their mouth and its written products (Jas. 3:1,5,8,10).

The problem here is that today, Spiritually-awakened (converted but not regenerated) seekers may come into the assembly, desiring growth; but in the wrong company become sidetracked into seeking instant spirituality promised through acquisition of gifts described as active in the first-century (but which are in fact no longer available to them), thus leading to frustration and disbelief.

These gifts helped confirm The Lord's proclamation of The Kingdoms to them that saw and heard Him. They also helped confirm their testimony to the ones who had not seen or heard Jesus--all according to His Own Will. This special exercise of the gifts produced the "teleo" = finalizing (perfection) of The Truth in its final unrolling. But upon The Completion, the elements that produced the final Fruit, those elements (supernatural signs, wonders, and miracles gifts from the Spirit, Founding Apostles, Inspired Prophets) could no longer improve on The Perfection, and hence were dismissed. Therefore they disappeared, once the Greatest Gift of The God was now in the hands of the churches.

If one draws a seeker into trying to possess gifts they are not to seek after, gifts that are now not available, gifts which were always dispensed by the Will of the Spirit, not ours. they will be doing that instead of seeking after The Faith (1 Tim. 1:5) and The Scriptures which produce salvation (1 Tim. 3:16), and spiritual maturity through engrafted Scripture (Jas. 1:25). Faked gifts cannot produce this.

The sign of abiding in the Vine is that the fruit of disciples is more disciples (Jn. 15:8, 16)! The fruit of the Spirit is the character of The Christ formed in the regenerated believer-disciple, progressively visible and achievable through greater submission to the control of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18-21, Gal. 5:24-26,Phil. 2:3-8). Seeking after dead "giftedness" will only produce, at the best, dead branches; and at the worst, dead souls afire forever; whereas in whom the generative seed, the Holy Word would have produced gestating and new-born souls into the Kingdom of The God. What a tragedy.

6. You might consider returning to your disciple. Seems to me some things in your theology were left undone or need a tune up or overhaul. Though I'd suggest finding one more Biblically grounded, this time.

As a matter of fact, I did exactly what you suggested, excepting the pejorative part. I have within the last hour called my discipler, Dr. Fred Wittman, and run the exchanges and this counsel to him verbatim. His pronouncement was that my comment here is precise and thorough, and completely within limits of the context of the whole Bible. That's two earthly witnesses. But it is also the Spirit witnessing with my spirit, and his spirit--but apparently not with your spirit.

Apparently my theology engine seems to be well tuned up, firing on all 3 cylinders for the Word of His Power (Heb, 1:3), and rolling well on Route 66. This road includes the section through Romans, and the ground is not only Biblical, it is the theme of the whole Bible. (It's so hard to be humble, isn't it?)

Just for the record, though, is it the indwelling Holy Ghost that is furnishing the tone of your responses, is it your current discipler, or is it just -- your spirit? This is not an attack, just a request for sourcing. It would be nice to know to whom to attribute your answers and "corrections." Is it the Holy Ghost that is teaching you to vilify both myself and the one missionary, discipler, and servant of The God, who has precisely translated the New Testament, toward which he has dedicated many years? Living without salary and other work, trusting in the Lord's provision? And through the Happy Heralds site giving you sound counsel? Freely?

(This is me asking these questions, but God does not seem to be putting brakes on--I hope I am not disappointing Him in contending for The Faith. But blame me for putting it this way. I'm not approaching you sidewise.)

Thank you for demonstrating your stage of erudition and graciousness! It will be remembered -- in prayer for your vision and growth.

(Gal. 6:1-5)

188 posted on 02/22/2012 4:03:44 AM PST by imardmd1 (Jude 3c "... earnestly contend for The Faith which was once delivered to the saints.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 177 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
Excellent comment. Actually, there are seven baptisms mentioned in the NT, eight if one counts mikvah ritual purification. And I do, when teaching baptisms.

Did you know that I read that for a woman (every month), she is actually to undo any hairdos or braids, right down to the roots, so that the immersion is quite complete?

Thanks for the extra detail!

I understand that a synagogue = "shul" must not only have a minyan of mature men, but also for the building a mikvah (with "living" water)? That's what I've been told --

189 posted on 02/22/2012 4:26:05 AM PST by imardmd1 (Jude 3c "... earnestly contend for The Faith which was once delivered to the saints.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 160 | View Replies]

To: imardmd1

Mikvah first, then the other structures.


190 posted on 02/22/2012 4:30:13 AM PST by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 189 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah

Great! Thanks! My education is improved — with few words!


191 posted on 02/22/2012 4:45:12 AM PST by imardmd1 (Jude 3c "... earnestly contend for The Faith which was once delivered to the saints.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 190 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
Paul only baptized a few people in water and he said to the Corinthians, "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius" (I Cor. 1:14) because he didn't want anyone to brag about being baptized by Paul. Strange thing for an Apostle to say if water baptism is what causes the remission of sins, isn't it?

Exactly.

192 posted on 02/22/2012 5:18:15 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: metmom; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ...
1 Corinthians 14:22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.

And yet here we have believers by the churchful claim that tongues is the sign of the filling of the Holy Spirit to and for believers. It's become a status symbol for the have's compared to the have not's; a matter of spiritual pride.

Sigh.

YET AGAIN I’ve agreed with several of y’all’s points. And YET AGAIN y’all have refused to agree with a single one of my Biblical points. Fascinating. Talk about spiritual pride! Sheesh.

As I documented above—Paul made clear that TONGUES WITH INTERPRETATION was equivalent to prophecy—WHICH WAS A SIGN TO BELIEVERS and unbelievers as well, actually.

Yes, AS I NOTED ABOVE, humans have a capacity to even turn something God sends for humility into an occasion for pride. I agreed. Which part of the Scripture below is unclear?

I Cor 14: 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves {a case of tongues edifying a believer—the one speaking!},

but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

I COR 14 NLT:
5 I wish you could all speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying [or the prophecy equivalent of tongues with interpretation as Paul made clear above in verse 5], they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

.

Folks can go on REJECTING SCRIPTURE on that score, if they choose. I don’t recommend it. I obviously didn’t write the Scripture, GOD DID. Take it up with HIM.

Tongues is NOT a sign for believers.

As I documented above from Corinthians, WHEN accompanied by interpretation, IT IS a sign for believers as the equivalent to prophetic words.

Those who claim so are wrong because they are contradicting the clear teaching of Scripture. Also, there is not ONE verse of Scripture anywhere that says that tongues is the sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit,

Nonsense. Have you ripped I Cor 12-14 out of your Bible? What do you think tongues have to do with—a spicy taco? Where do you think tongues come from, if not Holy Spirit? Are you presuming to edit God’s list of Gifts of Holy Spirit? Are you insisting that 100% of all manifestations labeled “tongues” are of satan? That’s a very eternally hazardous assertion, if so.

It sounds like that y’all are telling Holy Spirit that HE GOOFED when He distributed & distributes tongues in the body of believers . . . just because some abuse tongues and use it as an occasion for spiritual pride.

Welllllllllll, la T Da! Let’s just get rid of everything other Biblical Holy Spirit gifting that perverse humans use as an occasion for spiritual pride! Why stop with tongues!

We’ll have to also throw out:

--discernment—plenty of folks get prideful and smug about their Holy Spirit gifted discernment.
--scholarship and study of God’s Word. LOTS of folks get prideful, arrogant about that.
--gift of healing—plenty get prideful about that
--gift of wisdom—few seem to get arrogant about that but probably a few do here and there, so toss it out.
--gift of knowledge—plenty get prideful about that. Toss it out.
--gift of powerful faith. Some get prideful over that. Toss it out.
--gift of miracles. Goodness—plenty get prideful over that. Toss it out.
--gift of prophecy. Lots get prideful over that. Toss it out.
. . .
Better send Holy Spirit a notorized snail mail that He totally erred and blew it when He distributed & distributes spiritual gifts since our pride totally neuters and destroys their usefulness. /sarcasm

What unmitigated balderdash. Do y’all think through your convictions on such scores further than your noses—AT ALL?

Also, there is not ONE verse of Scripture anywhere that says that tongues is … meant to be or be used as a prayer language,

WRONG again.

2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[a] you will be talking only to God, [MOST folks consider that PRAYING] since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit,[b] but it will all be mysterious. . . . 4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, . . . 14 For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is PRAYING, but I don’t understand what I am saying.

15 Well then, what shall I do? I will PRAY in the spirit,[e] and I will also pray in words I understand.

.

Y’all can DENY and refuse to believe the Scriptures above about PRAYING IN HOLY SPIRIT until the cows come home, until Jesus comes. I don’t recommend it.

or that there's any more power in praying in tongues than praying in one's native language. It's all based on experience, ie traditions of men.

Y’all can DENY and refuse to believe the Scriptures above about the added benefit and clout spiritually from praying on tongues until Jesus comes. I don’t recommend it. If there was no added, extra benefit, Paul would not have noted:

I COR 14:
5 I wish you could all speak in tongues,

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

.

Y’all can tear those words out of every Bible y’all have. It won’t change The Word of God. And it won’t change God’s expectation that you apply EVEN THAT PART of The Word of God to your own spiritual lives—at least in understanding and support thereof.

In addition is the wrong teaching that every believer should have the gift of tongues.

I suppose it depends on what “should” means. However, I’ll take St Paul’s convictions on the matter over yours.

I COR 14:
5 I wish you could all speak in tongues,

Y’all can DENY that’s part of THE WORD OF GOD 24/7. I don’t recommend it.

1 Corinthians 12:11 All these (gifts) are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

I totally agree.

And, individuals and the Church in general live far below what Holy Spirit WOULD DO in terms of spiritual gifts—IF individuals were more submissive TO HIM on such matters.

When a gift given to believers for the edification of the church becomes a status symbol, it's well past time to reevaluate what the church is teaching.

TRUE. Why single out tongues on that score? THAT’S TRUE about a LONG LIST of status symbol stuff as I illustrated above.

I believe it is BECAUSE tongues is MORE offensive to folks’ pride—one way or another.

Additionally, Curry Blake has very unorthodox teaching on signs. That is that they are meant to validate or verify the message of the gospel of the kingdom, therefore what we've been doing, practicing them within the church, is wrong. They need to be being practiced out in the world before unbelievers to confirm the message we bear. (A very brief summary).

I don’t believe Curry would insist on STOPPING their operation IN the church. He just rightfully insists they MORE belong out on the street where they’ll have more impact for The Gospel.

There is danger in accepting EVERYTHING as from God all in the name of nor wanting to reject what really is from God. But I agree with bb here. What God does will stand the test. For my part, I don't accept what I see on television as genuine because there is simply no way of knowing or verifying it.

Reasonable enough. Personally, I prefer to avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water. However, if that’s y’all’s favorite hobby—help yourselves. Y’all can take it and the consequences of such a habit up with Holy Spirit and The Lord Jesus later.

I find the lifestyles, some of the teaching, and many of the methods of most of the so-called charismatic evangelists absolutely unScriptural, therefore I feel no obligation to believe that the miracles and tongues they claim are genuine.

Who’s asking you to believe in something that is not genuine? Not me!

What’s wrong with some discernment. Is y’all’s discernment so anemic that EVERYTHING is ALWAYS 100% black or 100% white?

Do y’all have NO capacity to spit out the bones?

How on earth did you ever raise any kids? Did you smack them silly over everything less than perfect?

Sigh.

193 posted on 02/22/2012 6:58:18 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 182 | View Replies]

To: imardmd1

A quick response.

I “vilify” ideas, doctrines, perspectives from the pit . . .

not individuals—though I may chide individuals. In all that, I do as I’d prefer to be done unto.

In terms of the Kingdom of God . . . evidently y’all do not believe that after Armageddon, The Kingdom of Heaven and The Kingdom of God on earth will MERGE.

Curious.

Sometimes your posts remind me of folks who

can get seemingly

exactly right

tithing on their cinnamon and cumin and 100’s of other things

and still miss the boat by a wide margin.

Curious.


194 posted on 02/22/2012 7:11:52 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 188 | View Replies]

To: Quix; boatbums; smvoice
Are you insisting that 100% of all manifestations labeled “tongues” are of satan? That’s a very eternally hazardous assertion, if so.

Are you insisting that 100% of all tongues IS from God? That is likewise a hazardous assertion.

I know of people who wanted to be filled with the Holy Spirit and went forward for prayer and the people praying wouldn't let them go until they *spoke* in tongues, so after more than 20 minutes of being prayed for, they started *speaking* in tongues (aka faking it) just to get everyone to back off and let them go. And then everyone was happy because they all thought that the person had spoken in tongues and had been baptized (filled) in the Holy Spirit.

And not all times people speak in tongues is there an interpretation, and even then, you have to know somehow, that the interpretation is accurate.

There is not one recorded instance of Jesus speaking in tongues, and there still are no verses which say that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit. When people ask me if I've been filled with the Holy Spirit, what they are asking is whether or not I've spoken in tongues. And when I tell them I have been without tongues, they don't accept it.

I don't doubt for one minute that God can give people the gift of tongues, but don't tell me I HAVE to and don't try to tell me I have to believe something about it which has no Scriptural backing; and that is, that it's a prayer language and has some sort of special power in prayer that my praying in English does not.

There is not one verse of Scripture that says that praying in tongues is praying in the Spirit.

And don't even go there about my kids...... For the record, all three of my kids who have been raised with the same theology on tongues and miracles as I have, are all walking with Christ in vibrant relationship with Him. They seek His will and pray about major life decisions such as where to live, where to go to school, WHO TO MARRY (yes, my son wasn't going to do even that without God's direction), what job to take, etc. They have been effective witnesses for Him and led friends to Christ. And their views on tongues are the same as mine and not one of them has spoken in tongues. Imagine that.

None of us are discounting miracles and genuine works of God. What we are discounting is errant teaching about the gifts, particularly tongues, as it is being presented in the church today. Too much traditions of men and not enough Scriptural backing. Too much emphasis on the least of the gifts and too much attention on the person doing the speaking.

195 posted on 02/22/2012 7:44:18 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 193 | View Replies]

To: metmom

I’ve repeatedly agreed with you on most of those main points.

I don’t understand your refusal to agree with me on the valid points I’ve made.

THAT comes across as spiritual pride and pique.

I have NOT taken the stance of those who’ve offended your pride with a stance on tongues contrary to Scripture.

You are twisting my illustration/analogy about your kids. I’ve long praised you in terms of your kids.

Sigh.


196 posted on 02/22/2012 7:57:11 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 195 | View Replies]

To: metmom
There is not one verse of Scripture that says that praying in tongues is praying in the Spirit.

That is simply VERY UNTRUE, MetMom.

Verses 14 and 15 below document how untrue that assertion is.

I documented that above and below here:

I Cor 14:
2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[a] you will be talking only to God, [MOST folks consider that PRAYING] since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit,[b] but it will all be mysterious. . . . 4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, . . . 14 For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is PRAYING, but I don’t understand what I am saying.

15 Well then, what shall I do? I will PRAY in the spirit,[e] and I will also pray in words I understand.

I believe you KNOW me well enough to know emphatically that I do NOT believe that everything labeled as tongues is authentically from Holy Spirit.

However, you ought also to know that labeling things which ARE of Holy Spirit as from satan is dangerously close to the unpardonable sin . . . if not over that line.

197 posted on 02/22/2012 8:08:51 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 195 | View Replies]

To: Quix
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

198 posted on 02/22/2012 8:29:44 AM PST by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 196 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator

AYE AYE.

Sorry.


199 posted on 02/22/2012 8:34:42 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 198 | View Replies]

To: Quix
In terms of the Kingdom of God . . . evidently y’all do not believe that after Armageddon, The Kingdom of Heaven and The Kingdom of God on earth will MERGE.

I knew that. What I said still sticks. You persistently read into responses, and Scripture as well, interpretations that are not there. We're at loggerheads, and I won't wrangle. Read about KOH vs KOG on the Happy Heralds site, quite a few pages.

"to teleion" is still neuter and " hay basileia" is not the referent, be it "ton ouranon" or "tou theou." Finis.

200 posted on 02/22/2012 9:33:08 AM PST by imardmd1 (Jude 3c "... earnestly contend for The Faith which was once delivered to the saints.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 194 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 101-150151-200201-250 ... 901-919 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson