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Skip to comments.Saul And The Charismatics...
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didnt He promise us that
it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didnt begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by its leaders and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he felt was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldnt go by the Word, but by feelings. God called that rebellion and even witchcraft,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all little gods, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the deliverance movement which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive shepherding movement?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into spiritual drunkenness and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul
At the end of Sauls life, he went into the occult. God wasnt speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlmans tomb, to get an impartation of her anointing!
One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimees tomb in California. This Thursday Im on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlmans tomb. Its close by Aimees in Forest Lawn Cemetery. Ive been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where shes buried is closed, they built walls around it. You cant get in without a key and Im one of the very few people who can get in. But Ill never forget when I saw Aimees tomb. Its incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. Asas incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, II, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimees tomb. I was shaking all over. Gods power came all over me. I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimees body. I know this may be shocking to you. And Im going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. Theyre gonna come with me. Youyouyou gonna feel the anointing at Aimees tomb. Its incredible. And Kathryns. Its amazing. Ive heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by Gods power. You say, What a crazy thing. Brother, theres things well never understand. Are you all hearing me?11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinns followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult Gods instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to honor the Generals of revival, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
Honoring them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a generals library for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally soaking the anointing by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students Soaking Anointing Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but the delusion, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
that’s a wholesale pile of irrational Unbiblical assertions, to me.
It shocks me that anyone would ascribe to it.
I see it as a matter of legalism and leading to bondage. In some circles, the legalism is in what you don't do. There is judgment and condemnation if you do certain things (drink, dance, smoke, or chew) and commendation if you don't do those things.
In the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, its a kind of reverse legalism. You are judged based on what you don't do (don't speak in tongues, don't get *slain in the Spirit*, don't whatever the sign of the day is) and you are commended if you DO do them.
I see that as being under bondage, a yoke of slavery, slavery to perform in certain ways or judgment and condemnation are the result, only from a different perspective.
I refuse to be under anyone's judgment and condemnation based on what they think of my works or signs. My walk with Christ is not to be measured by what someone else thinks God should be doing in my life or style with which I worship or pray. Been there, done that and am NOT interested in going there again.
That is all basing judgment on outward appearances and making people respecters of persons, the have's vs the have not's.
When everyone quits telling me I MUST DO _______ for them to think I am filled with the Spirit, then maybe it'll happen. But don't try to make me fit in THEIR mold.
Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Slavery to a law is slavery to a law, no matter whose law or conditions it is.
I wish you God's grace and peace wherever you go in your life. Regards, smvoice
I did not observe
any significant logical connection
between the Scriptures you offered
and the assertions purportedly made ‘based on’ those Scriptures.
I wish you God’s utmost for your highest and the closest possible relationship with Him and His Truths.
In no place in the book of Ephesians does Paul even mention the word "tongues". When he says we should pray at all times in the Spirit, he IS NOT speaking of the sign gift of tongues. I know this not only because of the context of the passage but because he said in his letter to the Corinthians that not everyone speaks in tongues, not everyone has that gift and that the OTHER gifts are more to be desired because they edify the church.
One more point WRT those that lure people in by a manifestation of miracles of tongues, God said, "Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith." (Jeremiah 23:31) The Bible is our authority, NOT self-proclaimed prophets. And it is the ONLY offensive weapon in our spiritual armory.
**..BUT Abraham believed God..**
He sure did: “Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country...........so Abram departed.
It was a long trip, probably over 600 miles, done the old fashioned way. He didn’t stop half way (repentance) and call it good. He obeyed the whole gospel, so to speak.
God wasn’t done seeing how strong Abraham’s faith was. After stopping him from slaying Isaac, the Lord said, “for now I know that thou fearest God......”. I’m sure that you agree, that in that context, ‘fearest’ is a form of faith.
The men lowered the man with the palsy through the roof “into the midst of Jesus. And when he SAW their faith, he said unto him, man, thy sins are forgiven thee”.
**Rahab acted upon her faith when she hid Joshua and the other spies in Jericho, but it was by her faith that she was declared righteous.**
Like so many others, Rahab had heard of the amazing stories of how God brought Israel out of Egypt, and how they were recently clobbering any and all opposition. Her faith was that she believed those stories, and acted upon it. When the spies showed up, she BELIEVED that she needed to hide them. AFTER hiding the spies, and HELPING them escape she believed their promise of protection, hanging the scarlet line out of her window.
**The ordinance of baptism is also an act of obedience but faith MUST precede it and it is faith that brings righteousness.**
I would suggest you re-word Mark 16:16 to suit you position: “He that believeth, is saved, and should be baptized....”
**”I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius” (I Cor. 1:14)**
“And I also baptized the household of Stephanus” (which doesn’t say how many ) “besides, I KNOW NOT whether I baptized any other”.
KNOW NOT?!? If he had only baptized a few in his missionary travels, he certainly would not have had any problem remembering who he baptized. I believe he probably baptized hundreds, if not thousands. He didn’t have to baptise very many in Corinth, for one of his first converts, Crispus, was the chief ruler of the synagogue. Paul no doubt ordained him, and Crispus was then performing baptisms, too.
The cases of baptism in Acts are hurried, and without delay, so urgent was the command:
Acts 2:41 About three thousand the first day. Peter and the rest of the apostles were surely left with wrinkled hands and feet after that.
Acts 8:12-17 Philip got right after the Samaritans, baptizing them sometime before Peter (the man with the ‘keys’) and John showed up.
Acts 8:36-39 Philip preached Jesus unto the eunuch, which must have included baptism; for he promptly requested it when coming by a ‘certain water’.
Acts 9:18 Paul believed and was baptized. In 22:16 Paul retells the event; how that Ananias said, “And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord”. (It’s GOT to be in his NAME)
Acts 10:47,48 Upon witnessing the pouring out of God’s Spirit on Cornelius and his household, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord”.
Acts 16:14,15 Paul and Silas baptise Lydia and her household.
Acts 16:30-34 Paul and Silas baptise the keeper of the prison and his household, AFTER speaking unto them ‘the word of the Lord’.
Acts 18 Paul in Corinth (already covered that)
Acts 19:1-7 Paul get’s right down to business RE-baptizing certain disciples in the name of the Lord Jesus.
**You can go on believing it was your water baptism that was the moment you were saved and your sins were remitted, that your faith alone is not sufficient to save you - regardless what Scripture says.**
Acts 2:38; is it from heaven or of men? If you believe it, you’ll obey it, as did those ‘called to be saints’ at Rome: “but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctine which was delivered you”. Paul had told them that they were justified by faith. Yep, they faithfully obeyed that form of doctrine. That’s how we have access into this grace. (remember, Paul had just a few verses earlier, in chp 6, reminded them of being ‘buried with him in baptism’. “Therefore we are buried with him BY baptism into death..”. That’s not talking about Holy Spirit baptism, for the Spirit is life.
**Is eternal life still a gift then if you have to earn it?**
Faith is active or it is non existant. “”..the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.’ Acts 5:32
Also: “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” Heb. 5:9
**Do you also believe that you can lose your salvation if you fail to keep all God’s commandments or if you do not confess all your sins before you die?**
The parable of the five wise and five foolish virgins show that some have the light, but do not keep their lamps aflame because of carelessness. The various conditions of the ‘seven churches’ show that devotion is expected, inspite of the different trials and temptations. All are told: “he that overcometh”.
“few there be that find it”.
It does not surprise me that this message is resisted by so many; for it causes separation, and for many the price is too high (family, friends, worldly lusts, ‘a comfort zone’).
I hope this makes my position clearer. Remember....”HE saw their faith..”.
Yet, no matter what I say, it is ridiculed, my motives are questioned, my discernment is doubted, my relationship with Christ is slighted and, although I will not give away the identity of the man and how I know, my observations are trashed. What exactly is your idea of NOT haranguing someone?
You should know by now that I defend you whenever I feel you are being unfairly attacked, do I not? I am also NOT in any way stating I do not believe God continues to work in this world and in our lives nor that he is unable to do miraculous things as HE sees fit. What I am questioning is the stranglehold this ONE thing (tongues) seems to have on some people. God, the power of God, is SO much greater than that! I do not believe those sign gifts are still active today and I have given the Scriptural reasons for why I hold to that. I do not desire to continue to discuss this with anyone who is incapable of looking at it objectively because it appears that, no matter how the argument is framed, it will be taken as a personal attack. I hope you can see that how you are reacting is how some of the Roman Catholics do whenever their church's doctrine is questioned. They are unable to step away and objectively discuss the points in a calm, respectful manner but take personally every criticism. Some of the exact same words and taunting are showing up here. Obviously, it is hitting too close to home. Is it wrong to ask why?
So, your answer is, YES, anyone who is saved must obey the commandments of God, do all the works he asks of them, be baptized, go to church services (keep the Sabbath?), participate in the Lord's Supper, give their tithes, did I miss anything? So in other words, salvation is not by grace through faith in your belief system?
Regardless, I know I HAVE eternal life right this very moment, because I have received the gift of eternal life - my redemption - through Jesus Christ's blood and I have been born again into the family of God by faith.
I John 5:4,5
For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, In you shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
I dont believe thats accurate. Thats far too blanket a statement for what I do vs what I dont do. I do commonly ridicule things I believe to come from the pit.
my motives are questioned,
Please show me where I questioned your MOTIVES. I dont believe I did. I have asserted that the idea that the Gifts of Holy Spirit described in Acts 2 and I Cor 12-14 have ceased to operate in our erathat THAT IDEA is from the pit. I still stand by that conviction.
Thats far different than questioning your motives.
my discernment is doubted,
Of course. You doubt my discernment wholesale on this topic. How is it righteous for you to doubt my discernment but evil for me to doubt yours? Where is that in Scripture?
my relationship with Christ is slighted
I dont believe thats accurate. Please show me where I slighted your relationship with Christ. I dont believe I said anything about that.
and, although I will not give away the identity of the man and how I know, my observations are trashed.
I have no idea what man you are talking about. I have no idea what observations you are talking about.
If you are talking about excesses regarding tongues and other silliness in Pentecostalism and CharismaniaIve agreed with all of you about the horrors of such things existing. That agreement with yall on such scores has evidently earned me MINUS 99.8% (-99.8%) respect from yall. Real sweet.
What exactly is your idea of NOT haranguing someone?
My idea of haranguing folks would involve relentless fierce to harsh personal assaults.
You should know by now that I defend you whenever I feel you are being unfairly attacked, do I not?
I believe thats true and have always appreciated it. I return the favor as often as Im aware of the need and feel an ability to do so.
I am also NOT in any way stating I do not believe God continues to work in this world and in our lives nor that he is unable to do miraculous things as HE sees fit.
Sounds good. Yet, on this issue and even in this post, that sounds like talking out of both sides of ones mouth quite inconsistently. You say that on the one hand and in the next breath or sentence insist that the Holy Spirit gifts in I Cor 12-14 and Acts 2 are not for this day. You cant logically have it both ways.
Either God sent Holy Spirit to operate as described for the whole church age or He did not. This is not a half pregnant possibility.
There is NOT A SHRED OF SCRIPTURAL indication that God sent Holy Spirit at Pentecost and then changed his mind a few decades later and withdrew Holy Spirit or put His manifestations in a straight-jacket. Not a shred.
1. The world, the flesh and the devil HAVE NOT CHANGED
2. The devils methods, goals and strategies have not significantly changed.
3. Mankind HAS NOT CHANGED.
4. GOD HAS CERTAINLY NOT CHANGED.
5. Demonic attacks HAVE NOT CHANGED.
6. Spiritual warfare has essentially NOT CHANGED.
7. Human NEED for Gods supernatural solutions to excruciating human problems HAS NOT CHANGED. 8. The Biblical logic of the Biblical exhortations about how to call for, facilitate, administer, pronounce Gods miraculous solution over human needs HAS NOT CHANGED.
What I am questioning is the stranglehold this ONE thing (tongues) seems to have on some people.
I dont observe such a person in my mirror.
God, the power of God, is SO much greater than that! I do not believe those sign gifts are still active today and I have given the Scriptural reasons for why I hold to that.
Ive observed that youve thrown some Scriptures on the table as relating to that issue. I find no connection between the Scriptures and your claim of the application of those Scriptures to this issue. None whatsoever.
It is as though you cite
The Lord is my shepherd. He makes me to lie down in green pastures.
As the Biblical proof requiring all authentic Christians to sleep in pastures with sheep.
Non-sequiturs after non-sequitur.
I do not desire to continue to discuss this with anyone who is incapable of looking at it objectively because it appears that, no matter how the argument is framed, it will be taken as a personal attack.
Show me where Ive done anything of the kind. I dont recall thinking or saying something like that.
I have noted that Ive agreed with a lot of what yall have said and none of you have agreed with a single Biblical thing Ive said. That doesnt feel wonderful but I havent considered it a personal attackjust something thats very very sad.
I hope you can see that how you are reacting is how some of the Roman Catholics do whenever their church's doctrine is questioned. They are unable to step away and objectively discuss the points in a calm, respectful manner but take personally every criticism.
Show me a single case where Ive taken things personally.
My fierceness and zeal are in behalf of Holy Spirits operation in this era in these matters. Im sick to death of Holy Spirit and His authentic manifestations being trashed by the enemys schemes. Ive heard it all my life and Im sick of it.
Its not per se persona. I dont give THAT BIG A RIP what yall think of me on the matter. I KNOW WHATS HOLY SPIRIT AND REAL IN MY LIFE whether anyone else does, or not. NO AMOUNT OF ARGUMENT can change my mind on whats real BECAUSE GOD HIMSELF HAS BURNED IT INTO THE MARROW OF MY BONES.
What angers me is the insult to Holy Spirit and the catering to the satanic perspective by folks who are otherwise usually open to END TIMES Biblical stuff. I hate seeing satan snooker folks of normally substantive authentic spirituality.
And I CERTAINLY hate to see HOLY SPIRIT QUENCED in direct disobedience to the Scriptural exhortation NOT TO QUENCE HOLY SPIRIT.
But againits no skin off my teeth. Our congregation operates Biblically and will continue to do soas will Iregardless of what even 100% of everyone else on FR thinks or doesnt think about such.
It does grieve me and anger me to see Holy Spirits efforts so maligned, dismissed, rationalized away, trashed etc. by folks who I think ought to know WAYYYY better. But even then, the anger is felt primarily toward satan for snookering such folks.
Some of the exact same words and taunting are showing up here. Obviously, it is hitting too close to home. Is it wrong to ask why?
Your assumptions on that score just happen to be off-the-wall wrong. Both your analysis and your interpretation about me are WRONG.
17 These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.[e] 18 They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it wont hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.
I didn’t write that.
John Wimber didn’t write that.
There is no verse in the Bible that states that all believers must speak in tongues. On the contrary, there is 1 Corinthians 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. and 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
There is no verse which says that it's a heavenly language as opposed to a normal earthly language or that it's a prayer language which someone is more effective or powerful than praying in one's native tongue.
On the contrary, James 5:13-18 13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.
It's the prayer of a RIGHTEOUS man which is powerful and effective.
There's no verse that even says that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit is..... Galatians 5:13-26 13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
MARK 16:17-18: 17 These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.[e] 18 They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it wont hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.
I didnt write that. John Wimber didnt write that. GOD DID.
Do you also hold to verse 16 which says? 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. because it IS part of the same passage. And I've noticed that the RC's like to quote 16 and ignore the rest, and the Charismatics like to quote 17 & 18 and ignore 16. I don't recall that I've ever seen anyone hold to ALL the teaching of that discourse. Not to mention that there is quite the controversy as to whether that passage was actually initially part of Mark.
I find it a rather weak support to hang such major doctrines on for these few reasons along with the teachings of other places in Scripture, particularly the instructions concerning the gifts (tongues) by Paul in 1 Corinthians.
You folks just don’t realize that our own works are OUR own works. Obedience to God is NOT our own works. Paul ripped the Galations for still trying to keep the Law after being taught the of the new and living way.
The Lord is not going to see your faith if you just sit there and say in your mind, “I accept the Lord”, but refuse his baptism.
Leaving Ur was not Abram’s own works, it was hearing the voice of God AND obeying it. You would have him hearing it and not moving ....at...all. “Blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it”. How do you leave Ur? By just sitting there and saying “I gotta leave UR”? How do you keep Acts 2:38? by just acknowledging it’s in the scriptures?
So, it appears you do fit the re-write of Mark 16:16, “He that believeth, is saved, and should be baptized.”
You ‘don’t move a muscle extremists’ would have everyone stay home, and expect the preacher go and find them, invite themselves in, preach and leave, mission done.
I’m sure the dead horse is very impressed with the continued beatings.
Then the Law should have saved because the Law was not man's creation but given from God.
And it couldn't and didn't.
You dont move a muscle extremists would have everyone stay home, and expect the preacher go and find them, invite themselves in, preach and leave, mission done.
When all else fails, engage in hyperbole and make it personal.
How many times do I have to say
with something before I'm believed?
WHEN I'm attempting dialogue with folks--particularly BELIEVERS--where the GOAL is mutual Christian understanding and unity--I tend to be very quick to note areas of agreement. I WANT the other side to encouragingly understand right away what common ground we share.
I observe no such similar attitude nor behavior on the other side, in these exchanges.
Evidently mutual understanding and agreement in Christian caring and unity are NOT the goals.
IT FEELS like horse-whip practice is the goal.
Nor even, evidently, is rightly dividing the Word of God the goal.
Evidently AGREEMENT is not the goal of the tirades, rants. Otherwise, my AGREEMENT, where I AGREED, would have been noted and warmly accepted, the FIRST time.
BTW, Hint: I don't horse-whip into agreement very well--if ever.
Evidently relentless hurt, angry, bitter spewing is greatly MORE the goal and need.
Well, IF it helps (research says it does NOT help--it just keeps rehearsing it and keeping it churned up), let it all out. I have a LOT of practice as a whipping post. Get it allll out, quite thoroughly. RANT/SPEW, RANT/SPEW to hearts' content.
Just MAYBE Holy Spirit will be easier to hear on such matters, then.
Obviously the problems on these issues are not with me. There must be earlier, other relationships that are still unhealed, unredeemed, unforgiven . . . where persistent woundedness has occurred and fairly intense bitterness has taken root. The doggedly persistent rants and spews are tenaciously dressed and dripping in bitterness and resentment.
I hope there's no thought that truly Holy Spirit edification and enlightenment spring out of bitterness and resentment. There's issues of spiritual TRUTH MUCH more important than tongues greatly in need of MORE attention.
Obviously, the issue is not even tongues. The pique HAS to be deeper, more fundamental and more viscerally primitive. Otherwise, there'd not be SOOOOOOOO much hurt, irrational, angry emotion attached . . . making reasonable, mutually understanding dialogue soooo impossible.
Your big letters make my mind hurt. Tone it down.
will solve it regardless.
I like the papyrus font. I don’t like what it does with all caps but I don’t always go back and fix each instance.
BTW, I assume you are aware that your brain has no pain nerves/sensors.
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