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Saul And The Charismatics...
http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/saul-and-the-charismatics/ ^ | 02-14-12 | Bill Randles

Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: apostasy; charismatics; jesus; truth
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To: caww

You go girl......


601 posted on 02/28/2012 8:36:49 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: grey_whiskers; metmom

..and it’s not like anyone cannot go somewhere in SCRIPTURE to find out what happened. In order to keep from making the VERY SAME MISTAKES the Corinthians made. “yeah, but that was them. WE are different..we have more discernment than they had..WE can’t be fooled, and IF we are, then shame on the fooler. NOT on us, because we do not need to compare the Scriptures and study them daily to see if those things are so..it just FEELS right, so it MUST be..” And whatever you do, do NOT post Scripture or attempt to show through God’s Word your belief on the matter. It WILL be NOT be met with a reasoned discourse and conversation, using the Scriptures to guide and longsuffering and doctrine to explain. It will be met with wrath, indignation, scorn, belittling, hostility, and ridicule. Everything but Scripture. Corinthian hospitality at its finest.


602 posted on 02/28/2012 8:38:42 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: caww
The miracles recorded in the book of Acts are simply not being reproduced in churches today as was done by the Apostles.

That cannot be overemphasized or stated often enough.

603 posted on 02/28/2012 8:39:25 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
There are lessons learned through affliction which I cannot imagine can be learned any other way.

That's because Jesus did say we would have trials and tribulations...you are right to say the expectations of how our life should be lived by the worlds standards is not how God said it would be for those of the faith.....

Additionally some things simply cannot be 'understood' without going through them. Also, that goes for those who stand with people going thru things...we do learn and understand how limited we are in helping another and so draw on God for Him to sustain us and be what we need to be for those afflicted.

Most of all we realize the joy of relying on God, we certainly recognize there are things which are impossible to endure apart from Him.....and often see His hand and heart reach to us then.

Either now, tomorrow or then, all who know Christ will come thru either in this world or the next...so his Promises are true just as He has said.

604 posted on 02/28/2012 8:43:19 PM PST by caww
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To: caww
Photobucket

605 posted on 02/28/2012 8:47:04 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom; presently no screen name
Photobucket
.
even though
It's simply an
untrue assertion?!
There are churches all around the world
where such
resurrections, miracles and healings are reasonably routine.

606 posted on 02/28/2012 8:50:53 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom; Quix
I think it's time to quote C.S. Lewis at you two.

From That Hideous Strength, Elwin Ransom interrupts a dispute between Dr. Grace Ironwood and Mr. MacPhee.

"I don't believe a word of all that other story," said MacPhee.

"I thought," said Miss Ironwood, "that we weren't to use words like believe. I thought we were only to state facts and exhibit implications."

"If you two quarrel much more," said the Director, "I think I'll make you marry one another."

Whatever happened to gentle admonishment and praying for each other?

(See also the chapter Protestant in Garrison Keillor's Lake Wobegon Days.)

Cheers!

607 posted on 02/28/2012 8:52:29 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: CynicalBear
I'm sorry, but it's past my bedtime. Everytime I read "Benny Hinn" my brain substitutes "Benny Hill".

Hilarity ensues.

Cheers!

608 posted on 02/28/2012 8:57:17 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers

In terms of Garrison Keilor . . .

I like the pontoon boat with 20 Lutheran ministers in hush puppies and . . .


609 posted on 02/28/2012 9:00:02 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: caww; metmom; boatbums; Quix; presently no screen name; CynicalBear
"For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:.."Col. 2:9-13.

As much as one would like to try, you CANNOT add anything to that which is COMPLETE. Please show me how that is done, and I will have to say God is a liar, that we aren't TRULY complete, without "tongues", "faith healers", all those signs that Mark 16:17-18 talked about and promised. Either that, or something CHANGED between Mark 16:17-18 and Col. 2:9-13.

My Bible tells me I am complete in Christ. And was the moment I was saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

610 posted on 02/28/2012 9:01:22 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

Non sequitur night?


611 posted on 02/28/2012 9:03:53 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: smvoice

Or taking the straw dogs out for a walk?


612 posted on 02/28/2012 9:04:40 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: caww
2 Corinthians 1:3-10 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

6 If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. 7 Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort.

8 For we do not want you to be unaware, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. 9 Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead. 10 He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will deliver us again.

God has taught me a lot of compassion for those who are suffering, something that had not been my strong suit. The ONLY way to learn compassion is to have been there. So instead of scorning them and looking down on them for being weak, I sympathize with the struggle they are going through. Instead of preaching at them and lecturing them to just suck it up and *have enough faith* I can understand the struggles they have in fighting the lies of the enemy and perhaps be of some help in helping the learn to resist the devil and take every thought captive.

613 posted on 02/28/2012 9:04:44 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Quix; caww
You're doing it wrong!

Could you be a little more specific in refuting her post which is very Scripturally sound?

614 posted on 02/28/2012 9:07:00 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: smvoice
I was waiting for you to introduce that old car commercial with Ricardo Montalban and "fine Corinthian leather"...

Cheers!

615 posted on 02/28/2012 9:07:41 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: metmom; CynicalBear; smvoice
I think the church would be far better off being a little more conservative and skeptical before blindly accepting everything that comes down the pike just because someone else claims it's from God. Only the gullible and naive would believe everything they hear without exercising enough discernment to check it out.

Wholeheartedly agree! There is a gift of discernment, too, that far too few people exercise. I've been reading this really good article, while waiting for FR to come back online, and it speaks about this exact problem in the church today as well as the link to "Ecumenicalism" and the One World Religion that will come about because people do not know God's word. It is http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/holylaugh.htm and it starts out speaking about the "Holy Laughter" phenomenon tying it into the Charismatic movement and the putting down of people for not diving head first into any supposed movement of the Holy Spirit or for questioning those who lead others into it. One section states:

    What we are witnessing in new evangelicalism and the charismatic movement is a subjective approach to God's Word. If something seems to work, it is accepted even if it cannot be validated by Scripture. Since it cannot be validated, it is assumed to be a new work of God. Those who reject it on the basis of its unbiblical or extra-Biblical character are regarded as faithless when, in fact, they are faithless toward the subjective religious philosophy of the "new thing" -- not toward God.

    This subjectivity is necessary if Satan is going to meld humanity into a one-world religion. As the masses open themselves up to beliefs and practices that are not validated by Scripture, they leave themselves open to deception of the highest order, often presented in the name of Jesus.

    The first step toward melding Christians into the New Age religion is not dissimilar to brianwashing techniques. The "yes set" is to get us to agree that all denominations share a common belief system. This is the motivating force behind the ecumenical movement sponsored by the Vatican and the major players in new evangelicalism and the charismatic movement.

    The "truisms" will be that we also share common beliefs and values with aberrant Christian cults and monotheistic religions such as cabalistic Judaism and Islam.

    The "suggestion" will be that we have a common spiritual bond with all of mankind. This suggestion will be implemented through the observation of signs and wonders construed to be of God. And if God can honor the faith of non-Christians, who are we to dissent from unity with them?

    We can expect the holy laughter people to defend their practices as being of God, while these other practices are counterfeits. But holy laughter as we know it today came lately. All attempts to link it to Scripture or early revival history are without merit. Its real precedent is coincidental to New Age philosophy. Does God mimic something Satan originates? Or is He taken off guard by Satan? I think not. Else He would be guilty of causing confusion among His people. And God is not the author of confusion. (1 Cor. 14:33).


616 posted on 02/28/2012 9:08:56 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: metmom

No.

IT’s NOT Scripturally sound.

And, I feel no compulsion to wade into it yet again.

My words are overwhelmingly not communicative nor respectable on this thread to y’all’s side so I’m decreasing the tedious futile exercises with them.


617 posted on 02/28/2012 9:13:28 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom
I really enjoyed seeing that come together from bits and pieces throughout this thread I looked into as well as authors and various writers. I especially liked learning more about how these “gifts” were so focused on the Jewish people, though it's one of those things you know ...it's pretty interesting looking closer at that...and then you have those ah-ha moments along the way.

I especially was drawn to the Jewish portions by Smvc posts...and can never remember her initials! Boatbums too brought it up and so I looked further....same with the “ who’ was being addressed ...the Apostles or the people. Makes a difference.

on another note....I can't recall specifically now of the woman who walked with the crowds following Jesus and thought if she could just touch the hem of her His garmet she'd be healed....she had been to so many Dr's without any relieve. Well I walked her walk some years ago....though not from a physical aspect but a personal aspect.

Like her, I was in my thinking just another person in the crowd who followed Jesus. And if I could just get close enough to touch Him...He wouldn't notice...and I didn't want Him to notice..... But from what's recorded... despite the noise, clamor, pushing and shoving of the crowd around Jesus....’He called her out! He more than noticed her. He addressed her up front and personal..... I recall that moment in my life too.

618 posted on 02/28/2012 9:17:36 PM PST by caww
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To: boatbums; Quix
I think you are missing the whole point of what Metmom, caww and I are trying to say here.

NO, I am not!

There is a misconception about the so-called "sign" gifts and their reality in today's world. We had been discussing "tongues" and the false use and snooty attitude some have who claim to have been gifted with that particular gift.

SNOOTY attitude? Sounds more like some are looking down on what they don't have what others do. I think this is spiritual warfare - the same what is going on with class warfare. "You have and I don't" mentality. "If I don't have it, it's you who did something wrong to get it or you don't have it, just faking it" mentality.

Today, we have men and women making a lot of money off of claiming to have this same power that Jesus gave to the disciples as they went about establishing the church and these miracles were confirmations of the authority of the Gospel they preached.

Lot of money - more class warfare. The command to "Go make disciples" didn't STOP and neither did preaching the gospel.

People today, such as Benny Hinn, put on these elaborate shows and productions to get people to respond to their pleadings for money - whereas the disciples NEVER healed for that reason.

Healed for what reason? Is that how you see benny, pleading for money? If so, don't go to him. I don't know anyone who has gone to him and if some want to give him money - what business is it of yours. If he is what you claim, people will learn. Because you didn't get, maybe others did. How many went to car mechanics and didn't get want they wanted - so now we have false mechanics. If you think he's false or misleading - ignore him. It's a simple as that. In fact, it would be wise to do that - because you really don't know. Neither do I. Seems those who aren't healed are his loudest critics.

Thousands of people have NOT been healed by these "faith-healers" and leave dejected and lost because they were PROMISED an experience just like in Jesus' days here.

Really? Thousands - do you have that personally verified? Why leave dejected and lost? If they have faith - that they know that they know - NOTHING would make one dejected and lost. Seems more like they were 'trying' it instead of believing it. Are there some false - sure, we know that from Scripture but are all false? Or as some are proclaiming - healing isn't for today. Try telling that to someone who has been healed.

1. God sometimes DOES cause sickness.

WRONG!! Sickness is a curse and Who took the curses on the tree? Either you believe His Word or you don't.

2. God uses sickness to bring about his plan.

He can use sickness for a greater good but HE DOESN'T cause sickness. Just like He uses anything problem we believe Him for.

3. God does not always take away sickness but has a much higher purpose in it remaining.

WRONG!! That's simply a 'to feel good' response.

4. God is glorified as much, if not more, when sickness remains.

Really, how? Sickness is glorying - straight from the pit, IMO. I am The Lord that heals you and God is no respecter of person.

So, I disagree that anyone has that gift of healing sign gift today for the same reason I reject that people speak in tongues.

You can reject all you want, you simply won't have it. No problem. And those that believe, have it. So everyone is happy. So what's your problem - telling others who have it, they don't? Spin your wheels all you want if it makes you feel better. In the meantime, don't say my God brings sickness on anyone! If you believe you are still under the curse, that's your problem.

I will continue to HATE all evil and sickness is evil. BUT, I do agree that God is able to do ALL things and nothing is impossible for him. God DOES sometimes heal and sometimes he does NOT heal and regardless of whether I am healed in this life or I must wait for my glorified, perfect body in heaven, I have learned to trust in God's grace to see me through. It is God who heals me spiritually and that is the more important. For someone to come along and say things such as "sickness is not from God" ergo the devil is doing this to

619 posted on 02/28/2012 9:19:27 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: CynicalBear
Should we assume then that any pastor, Preacher or Evangelist who does not follow up with miracles is not from God?

No, because the signs and wonders were to confirm the words the Apostles were preaching just as the Old Testament prophets were enabled by God. Now that we have the completed revelation from God - the Holy Scriptures - God-breathed and God confirmed truth is available to all. Any person who preaches and teaches the truths of the Christian faith HAS the Bible as their authority and all who would seek to know the truth should judge the truthfulness of anyone by what Scripture says. The Bible is the authority now and all doctrine must be measured by what it says.

620 posted on 02/28/2012 9:22:06 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: presently no screen name
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

!ABSOLUTELY INDEED!

621 posted on 02/28/2012 9:22:20 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: boatbums; metmom; CynicalBear; caww; Quix
I could not agree more.

The biggest shock I'm getting is that when Scripture is given to attempt to show where doctrine is going off the rails, it is called "straw dogs". Using Scripture is a "straw dog"?? Something is TERRIBLY wrong when that is the response to a Scripture based post. It's an out of control reaction to not being able to be reasonable and biblical and doctrinally sound in God's truth. The more Scripture that is given, the more hysterical and unreasonable the responses become. "Non-sequitor straw dogs"...because Scripture assures us that we are COMPLETE IN CHRIST? There is nothing to be added, and if there were, then by common sense, we would not be complete in Christ. Something very dangerous is happening here..

622 posted on 02/28/2012 9:24:22 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: Quix

How disappointing! There are a few on FR who can only post pictures and cartoons mocking what someone says because they have nothing else with which to comment.


623 posted on 02/28/2012 9:24:59 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums
What we are witnessing in new evangelicalism and the charismatic movement is a subjective approach to God's Word. If something seems to work, it is accepted even if it cannot be validated by Scripture. Since it cannot be validated, it is assumed to be a new work of God. Those who reject it on the basis of its unbiblical or extra-Biblical character are regarded as faithless when, in fact, they are faithless toward the subjective religious philosophy of the "new thing" -- not toward God.

Those who don't accept everything someone claims to be of God because it has no Scriptural basis are indeed not faithless, but rather faithFUL. Faithful to the integrity of Scripture.

Discernment is listed as a gift in 1 Corinthians 12, and who do I see clamoring for that one?

If there was ever a gift to ask for or seek after, that would be the one in my book. Lord, let me know what's from You and what is not that I not be in danger of being deceived.

624 posted on 02/28/2012 9:31:55 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: smvoice
Why is it so difficult to understand? Because immature, carnal Christians are always looking for the next experience or tangible evidence of God they can hold onto forgetting that faith does not need to see to believe. They don't know or don't care to follow Scriptural exhortations to "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1-3).
625 posted on 02/28/2012 9:35:04 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums; presently no screen name

WHEN

. . . comments obviously do not communicate seemingly at all

and . . . comments are seemingly not respected at all

it would appear that pics and gifs are all that’s left.

And that’s not acceptable either.

Tough tacos.

BTW, WHEN

Scriptures are used in a non-sequitur, straw dog sort of way . . . it is fitting and accurate to say so.


626 posted on 02/28/2012 9:35:24 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: smvoice; metmom

Amen!

And as Anne Graham Lotz said, describing some of the challenges and difficulties of her life,..... “Don’t give my sympathy..... Don’t give me advice..... Don’t even give me a miracle..... Just give me Jesus.”

(Jesus is both the journey and the destination.)


627 posted on 02/28/2012 9:43:00 PM PST by caww
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To: smvoice; metmom
And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM

Amen smvoice!

Anne Graham Lotz said, describing some of the challenges and difficulties of her life,..... “Don’t give me sympathy..... Don’t give me advice..... Don’t even give me a miracle..... Just give me Jesus.”

(Jesus is both the journey and the destination.)

628 posted on 02/28/2012 9:45:20 PM PST by caww
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To: Quix

..and when Scriptures are not used AT ALL to try to explain one’s beliefs, then “Tough tacos” is the best response that can be given. Yes, some comments are not respected AT ALL. Nor are they worthy.


629 posted on 02/28/2012 9:45:20 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: boatbums; Quix
Didn't finish this part - other things took precedence.

I do agree that God is able to do ALL things and nothing is impossible for him.

He does do all things - HE doesn't go against HIS WORD or LIE.

I must wait for my glorified, perfect body in heaven, I have learned to trust in God's grace to see me through. It is God who heals me spiritually and that is the more important.

Good attitude.

For someone to come along and say things such as "sickness is not from God" ergo the devil is doing this to.

For someone to come along and say things such as 'sickness can be from God' needs their oil checked badly!! Gee, I wonder if they are making money saying such things!

630 posted on 02/28/2012 9:46:28 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: grey_whiskers

AMEN!!! Thank you, GW. So that God is glorified.


631 posted on 02/28/2012 9:50:59 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: caww
II Thessalonians 2:8-10

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

632 posted on 02/28/2012 9:57:46 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: metmom

I doubt it. ;o)


633 posted on 02/28/2012 10:06:36 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Quix

PRAISE GOD for His Word.

God is good ALL THE TIME, not sometimes.


634 posted on 02/28/2012 10:12:48 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Quix

Of course you could just refrain from commenting in that case but, I guess, when something is hitting too close to home it is either somewhat face-saving or maybe pride that prevents one from letting another’s comment just stand.


635 posted on 02/28/2012 10:21:57 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: presently no screen name

Let me ask you, PNSN, do you believe that Christians have a responsibility to test or hold to a standard those that claim to speak for Christ to see if they are from God? Can you tell me what your interpretation of the gift of “discernment” is for?


636 posted on 02/28/2012 10:25:17 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Quix

Lots of strife going on here - don’t you think. This article is about hurt and some calling others mean and false because of supposed failed promises.

I don’t see where there is any rejoicing about those who were healed.

Gee, could it be bitterness causing some their problems. Bitterness, bitterness? What - I don’t see any bitterness./s


637 posted on 02/28/2012 10:28:52 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; grey_whiskers
For someone to come along and say things such as 'sickness can be from God' needs their oil checked badly!! Gee, I wonder if they are making money saying such things!

You seem to be missing all the Scriptural examples and teachings of that truth. Grey Whiskers gave one of them from John 9. Did you understand that part?

638 posted on 02/28/2012 10:29:27 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Quix
There are churches all around the world where such resurrections, miracles and healings are reasonably routine.

AMEN!!! INDEED they ARE!!! But those who don't believe will never receive healings, etc.. They will get what they believed for.

As they happen in churches - I KNOW they happen in homes, also. Where ever I am, so is The Spirit of God.

639 posted on 02/28/2012 10:37:17 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: boatbums

Yes, I understand,
Do You? You are the one that doesn’t believe, I DO!


640 posted on 02/28/2012 10:48:08 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: metmom
The miracles recorded in the book of Acts are simply not being reproduced in churches today as was done by the Apostles.
641 posted on 02/28/2012 10:53:10 PM PST by caww
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To: boatbums
missing all the Scriptural examples and teachings of that truth.

The thread evidences this is so. Though at what point does one discern it goes beyond simply "missing"...and it something else altogether?

There's enough evidence that some of the posters are stating exactly what they're repeatedly instructed to do and say from within the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements when confronted, (with the truth), on their "beliefs" and "practices".

So again at one point is it no longer seeking the truth of the scriptures but rather in opposition and rebellion of?

642 posted on 02/28/2012 11:36:33 PM PST by caww
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To: metmom
Some of us look at afflictions and infirmities as the refiner’s fire.

To burn up what? Something not from God? Wrong thinking? Unbelief? What's the fire burning up? We are all burning up something in our lives.

There are lessons learned through affliction which I cannot imagine can be learned any other way.

Yes, that God is right and man is wrong.

The problem with the name it and claim it theology that everyone should be prosperous and healthy, simply does not fit with us learning to depend on God for everything.

If that it their theology - what part do you think they aren't leaning on God for? If they got prosperity - where would it come from? If they regained health, Who did that come from?

Perhaps, if you drop the slur 'name it/claim it' and put in Truth - Read It and Believe It - it might be of value.

Pentecostals for the most part see affliction as something to be delivered from, not something to overcome.

I thought you said they weren't depending on God? WHO delivers someone from afflictions? Are they not overcoming their affliction in believing HE will deliver them from it?

Expecting health and wealth as our *right* is nothing more than entitlement mentality which has crept into and corrupted the church, the thinking being that since we are God’s children, we have the RIGHT to claim (demand) deliverance from anything unpleasant or uncomfortable.

Demand it? Is that the way you see it? Do children of kings DEMAND anything or is it their *right* as children of the king?

and just receive it with thanks KNOWING who they are?

because I am free in Christ. It will NOT stop me from living my life.

And that's a very good thing. You didn't give in or up. I say that's the attitude of one that says it may not look like I can do it but I don't have to 'see' that I can do it first, to believe I CAN DO IT. You did it despite any pre conceive obstacle that's in the natural. And, IIRC, it was smooth sailing to and from.

Deuteronomy 28:3-14 3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country. 4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. 5 Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed. 6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out. 7 The LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven. 8 The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you. 9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in obedience to him. 10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you. 11 The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you. 12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. 13 The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. 14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.

It's amazing the things we do for our children while some think God does less for HIS.

643 posted on 02/29/2012 12:22:55 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: boatbums; Quix
There are a few on FR who can only post pictures and cartoons mocking what someone because they have nothing else with which to comment.

And when they do, they are told they are wrong. I'll say a picture says a thousands words and even that is MOCKED by some who are now clamoring for words so they can refute.

Quix, Good job and smart move, IMO.

644 posted on 02/29/2012 12:33:32 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: boatbums; Quix
Let me ask you, PNSN, do you believe that Christians have a responsibility to test or hold to a standard those that claim to speak for Christ to see if they are from God?

Silly question, bb. OF COURSE! And that includes those who claim to speak for Christ and says HE causes sickness.

Can you tell me what your interpretation of the gift of “discernment” is for?

What gift? I thought you believed the gift shop is CLOSED!

645 posted on 02/29/2012 12:53:11 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: smvoice; Quix
My Bible tells me I am complete in Christ. And was the moment I was saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

So does mine! But my Bible says 'my spirit' is what is saved and sealed NOT MY BODY!! My body isn't even allowed in heaven. And I'm to renew my mind.

What does your bible say - your body, soul and spirit are complete in Him?

646 posted on 02/29/2012 12:59:55 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: caww; boatbums; smvoice; CynicalBear

I agree with her sentiments.

There’s also this from AB Simpson, who was the founder of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. He also had his share of health issues and did receive a healing of them but his perspective is one we would do all to keep in mind.

This is a link to a short sermon (I think) of his and a poem he wrote.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/simpson-ab_himself.html

HIMSELF by A. B. Simpson

Once it was the blessing, Now it is the Lord;
Once it was the feeling, Now it is His Word.
Once His gifts I wanted, Now the Giver own;
Once I sought for healing, Now Himself alone.

Once ‘twas painful trying, Now ‘tis perfect trust;
Once a half salvation, Now the uttermost.
Once ‘twas ceaseless holding, Now He holds me fast;
Once ‘twas constant drifting, Now my anchor’s cast.

Once ‘twas busy planning, Now ‘tis trustful prayer;
Once ‘twas anxious caring, Now He has the care.
Once ‘twas what I wanted, Now what Jesus says;
Once ‘twas constant asking, Now ‘tis ceaseless praise.

Once it was my working, His it hence shall be;
Once I tried to use Him, Now He uses me.
Once the power I wanted, Now the Mighty One;
Once for self I labored, Now for Him alone.

Once I hoped in Jesus, Now I know He’s mine;
Once my lamps were dying, Now they brightly shine.
Once for death I waited, Now His coming hail;
And my hopes are anchored, Safe within the vail.


647 posted on 02/29/2012 4:47:18 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: smvoice; Quix

I would like to see the Scriptural support for all believers speaking in tongues, that it is THE evidence of being filled/baptized (whatever you wish to call it) in the Holy Spirit, that holy laughter is of God, that being slain in the Spirit is of God, that shaking and making animal noises is of God, that healing is guaranteed to everyone and that everyone in the NT was healed, that healing ministries are mandated in Scripture........


648 posted on 02/29/2012 4:52:30 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name; boatbums; Quix; CynicalBear; smvoice; caww
For someone to come along and say things such as 'sickness can be from God' needs their oil checked badly!! Gee, I wonder if they are making money saying such things!

Can you say Job? Paul? The man born blind?

Sickness may not be directly inflicted on us by God Himself, it may indeed all be of the enemy, or just happenstance, but God allows it and God uses is and in that manner, it is from God as an instrument of correction and maturity in His sovereign will.

God's will is for us to be mature in Christ, to take every thought captive, to be conformed to the likeness of His Son who learned obedience through His suffering. (Heb 5:8).

I think God is far more concerned with out heart than our bodies. It's we who are so consumed with our own personal comfort levels that we obsess about it and judge God's favor in our lives over what we have in the terms of health and wealth.

When I got saved, I wasn't immediately whisked to heaven so while I did receive and do have my salvation secure for me in the heavenlies, I still have not experienced the fulness of what is mine by right.

And yes, healing is part of the atonement, and I have that by right as well, but may not experience that until I experience the fulness of my salvation when I die.

I can't go to heaven on demand even though eternal life is mine. Why should I expect to have healing on demand?

I don't know if I got what I'm trying to say across clearly at all, but just because we possess something in the heavenly, doesn't mean I experience it in totality in the earthly.

I have to die yet for my salvation to be completed.

649 posted on 02/29/2012 5:06:01 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
I can't go to heaven on demand even though eternal life is mine. Why should I expect to have healing on demand?

DEMAND?! You still calling it that to suite an agenda? It must make you feel better. A kings kid knows what he's entitled to - he makes no demands to get it. Maybe as a baby they do but when they are told otherwise, they conform. I guess co-heir takes a back seat for some while saying they are following Scripture.

Eternal life begins here, it's in those who have the Spirit of God within.

650 posted on 02/29/2012 6:03:29 AM PST by presently no screen name
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