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Skip to comments.Saul And The Charismatics...
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didnt He promise us that
it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didnt begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by its leaders and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he felt was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldnt go by the Word, but by feelings. God called that rebellion and even witchcraft,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all little gods, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the deliverance movement which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive shepherding movement?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into spiritual drunkenness and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul
At the end of Sauls life, he went into the occult. God wasnt speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlmans tomb, to get an impartation of her anointing!
One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimees tomb in California. This Thursday Im on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlmans tomb. Its close by Aimees in Forest Lawn Cemetery. Ive been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where shes buried is closed, they built walls around it. You cant get in without a key and Im one of the very few people who can get in. But Ill never forget when I saw Aimees tomb. Its incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. Asas incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, II, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimees tomb. I was shaking all over. Gods power came all over me. I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimees body. I know this may be shocking to you. And Im going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. Theyre gonna come with me. Youyouyou gonna feel the anointing at Aimees tomb. Its incredible. And Kathryns. Its amazing. Ive heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by Gods power. You say, What a crazy thing. Brother, theres things well never understand. Are you all hearing me?11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinns followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult Gods instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to honor the Generals of revival, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
Honoring them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a generals library for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally soaking the anointing by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students Soaking Anointing Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but the delusion, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
The thread evidences this is so. Though at what point does one discern it goes beyond simply "missing"...and it something else altogether?
There's enough evidence that some of the posters are stating exactly what they're repeatedly instructed to do and say from within the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements when confronted, (with the truth), on their "beliefs" and "practices".
So again at one point is it no longer seeking the truth of the scriptures but rather in opposition and rebellion of?
To burn up what? Something not from God? Wrong thinking? Unbelief? What's the fire burning up? We are all burning up something in our lives.
There are lessons learned through affliction which I cannot imagine can be learned any other way.
Yes, that God is right and man is wrong.
The problem with the name it and claim it theology that everyone should be prosperous and healthy, simply does not fit with us learning to depend on God for everything.
If that it their theology - what part do you think they aren't leaning on God for? If they got prosperity - where would it come from? If they regained health, Who did that come from?
Perhaps, if you drop the slur 'name it/claim it' and put in Truth - Read It and Believe It - it might be of value.
Pentecostals for the most part see affliction as something to be delivered from, not something to overcome.
I thought you said they weren't depending on God? WHO delivers someone from afflictions? Are they not overcoming their affliction in believing HE will deliver them from it?
Expecting health and wealth as our *right* is nothing more than entitlement mentality which has crept into and corrupted the church, the thinking being that since we are Gods children, we have the RIGHT to claim (demand) deliverance from anything unpleasant or uncomfortable.
Demand it? Is that the way you see it? Do children of kings DEMAND anything or is it their *right* as children of the king?
and just receive it with thanks KNOWING who they are?
because I am free in Christ. It will NOT stop me from living my life.
And that's a very good thing. You didn't give in or up. I say that's the attitude of one that says it may not look like I can do it but I don't have to 'see' that I can do it first, to believe I CAN DO IT. You did it despite any pre conceive obstacle that's in the natural. And, IIRC, it was smooth sailing to and from.
Deuteronomy 28:3-14 3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country. 4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestockthe calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. 5 Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed. 6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out. 7 The LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven. 8 The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you. 9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in obedience to him. 10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you. 11 The LORD will grant you abundant prosperityin the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your groundin the land he swore to your ancestors to give you. 12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. 13 The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. 14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.
It's amazing the things we do for our children while some think God does less for HIS.
And when they do, they are told they are wrong. I'll say a picture says a thousands words and even that is MOCKED by some who are now clamoring for words so they can refute.
Quix, Good job and smart move, IMO.
Silly question, bb. OF COURSE! And that includes those who claim to speak for Christ and says HE causes sickness.
Can you tell me what your interpretation of the gift of discernment is for?
What gift? I thought you believed the gift shop is CLOSED!
So does mine! But my Bible says 'my spirit' is what is saved and sealed NOT MY BODY!! My body isn't even allowed in heaven. And I'm to renew my mind.
What does your bible say - your body, soul and spirit are complete in Him?
I agree with her sentiments.
There’s also this from AB Simpson, who was the founder of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. He also had his share of health issues and did receive a healing of them but his perspective is one we would do all to keep in mind.
This is a link to a short sermon (I think) of his and a poem he wrote.
HIMSELF by A. B. Simpson
Once it was the blessing, Now it is the Lord;
Once it was the feeling, Now it is His Word.
Once His gifts I wanted, Now the Giver own;
Once I sought for healing, Now Himself alone.
Once ‘twas painful trying, Now ‘tis perfect trust;
Once a half salvation, Now the uttermost.
Once ‘twas ceaseless holding, Now He holds me fast;
Once ‘twas constant drifting, Now my anchor’s cast.
Once ‘twas busy planning, Now ‘tis trustful prayer;
Once ‘twas anxious caring, Now He has the care.
Once ‘twas what I wanted, Now what Jesus says;
Once ‘twas constant asking, Now ‘tis ceaseless praise.
Once it was my working, His it hence shall be;
Once I tried to use Him, Now He uses me.
Once the power I wanted, Now the Mighty One;
Once for self I labored, Now for Him alone.
Once I hoped in Jesus, Now I know He’s mine;
Once my lamps were dying, Now they brightly shine.
Once for death I waited, Now His coming hail;
And my hopes are anchored, Safe within the vail.
I would like to see the Scriptural support for all believers speaking in tongues, that it is THE evidence of being filled/baptized (whatever you wish to call it) in the Holy Spirit, that holy laughter is of God, that being slain in the Spirit is of God, that shaking and making animal noises is of God, that healing is guaranteed to everyone and that everyone in the NT was healed, that healing ministries are mandated in Scripture........
Can you say Job? Paul? The man born blind?
Sickness may not be directly inflicted on us by God Himself, it may indeed all be of the enemy, or just happenstance, but God allows it and God uses is and in that manner, it is from God as an instrument of correction and maturity in His sovereign will.
God's will is for us to be mature in Christ, to take every thought captive, to be conformed to the likeness of His Son who learned obedience through His suffering. (Heb 5:8).
I think God is far more concerned with out heart than our bodies. It's we who are so consumed with our own personal comfort levels that we obsess about it and judge God's favor in our lives over what we have in the terms of health and wealth.
When I got saved, I wasn't immediately whisked to heaven so while I did receive and do have my salvation secure for me in the heavenlies, I still have not experienced the fulness of what is mine by right.
And yes, healing is part of the atonement, and I have that by right as well, but may not experience that until I experience the fulness of my salvation when I die.
I can't go to heaven on demand even though eternal life is mine. Why should I expect to have healing on demand?
I don't know if I got what I'm trying to say across clearly at all, but just because we possess something in the heavenly, doesn't mean I experience it in totality in the earthly.
I have to die yet for my salvation to be completed.
DEMAND?! You still calling it that to suite an agenda? It must make you feel better. A kings kid knows what he's entitled to - he makes no demands to get it. Maybe as a baby they do but when they are told otherwise, they conform. I guess co-heir takes a back seat for some while saying they are following Scripture.
Eternal life begins here, it's in those who have the Spirit of God within.
Well let me introduce one to you. I began going to Hinns church just after he took over from his disgraced father in law. There was no better at teaching scripture than he was. Having grown up in the Middle East he had a perspective on local customs and history that lent understanding to Biblical history.
It took about two years for him to begin to leave his first calling and drift into the healing concept. It was at that point that most in the church could sense the Holy Spirit leave. You ask about the thousands? I can personally attest to thousands who, with full faith, went up to get healed and not once did we witness a true healing. It became all about him. I can attest without reservation that Hinn is a charlatan who measures his success by the amount of money he brings in.
At one point he tearfully confessed to have gone off track and for about six months was back to Biblical teaching but then again drifted off and hasnt been anything but a charlatan since.
It’s amazing that some folks seem to fail to see how often I do that.
And THAT poison tends to be insidious, pervasive and tenaciously entrenched.
Curry Blake is right that God heals many who don’t have faith for their own healing.
folks ENERGETICALLY PUT THEIR FAITH IN *FAILURE* OF HEALING PRAYERS—PUT THEIR FAITH SOLIDLY IN A NEGATIVE OUTCOME, they TEND to get just that . . . at least until they adjust their attitude—particularly when that attitude is rooted in bitterness and resentment against God and man.
God has indicated to some even that some will not make Heave because they failed to FORGIVE GOD for not running the universe and their lives according to their sensibilities and constructions on reality.
The miracles recorded in the book of Acts are simply not being reproduced in churches today as was done by the Apostles.
Some of us have better Biblical reading comprehension
as well as a capacity to learn from our experiences with God.
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