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Saul And The Charismatics...
http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/saul-and-the-charismatics/ ^ | 02-14-12 | Bill Randles

Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: apostasy; charismatics; jesus; truth
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To: boatbums
The point was that sickness is not always because of particular sins but that God is over all and when he allows sickness, he has a purpose. Sometimes that purpose is to not take it away, to not heal it, and that seems to be what "faith-healers" and those that promote their works often miss. As to whether or not there are specific people who have the first-century "gift" of healing, I say look at what they do, how they do it, who they use to demonstrate this supposed power, who gets the glory, and how they deal with people who do not respond to their actions. In most cases, the sick person is blamed for the failure of the faith healer. If people were honest about it, they would understand that God no longer uses men with this power, that his Word is the standard by which to measure the source of the power and that it is God, alone, who heals or does not heal - all for HIS glory.

Why do you feel the NEED to tell me this? Let's be honest - YOU are the one that went to a faith healer - NOT ME.

I was healed by MY FAITH. And I don't serve a 'sometimes' God.

801 posted on 03/03/2012 4:41:31 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
>> If they felt the HS leave, why didn't they leave, also, I wonder.<<

Why do you make the assumption they didn’t? They did leave as did I.

>> No one should make what he does a reason for their own failure.<<

Who make it about their own failure?

>> All we can do is hope he gets back 'to his first love'.<<

I think his first love was the adulation that his hero Kulman (sp?) had.

802 posted on 03/03/2012 4:45:52 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: boatbums
If we are told to "test the spirits to see if they are from God" and "prove all things" by the Word of God, then Scripture IS our authority as our ONLY infallible rule and measuring rod. This means that we must NOT base our beliefs upon experiences or subjective feelings but upon the objective Word of God.

It's good to see you know that. 'I am The Lord that heals you', God never changes and 'He is no respecter of persons'. Now, according to your experience DON'T CHANGE IT!!

We also are warned more than a few times that there will be false teachers who are able to deceive through signs and wonders, so we MUST have an objective source with which to determine what is and is not from God. If nothing else I have said so far gets through, I pray at least this does.

Is that the snooty attitude you speak of? Like you are some teacher and no one 'gets it' but you? Guess what - 'My sheep hear My voice...".

So pray for yourself that you do 'get it' and stop the finger pointing. We are warned about false teachers from God's Word - we know it, so get over it - they aren't going away because you are so offended by their existence.

803 posted on 03/03/2012 4:52:02 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; metmom
Why do you feel the NEED to tell me this? Let's be honest - YOU are the one that went to a faith healer - NOT ME. I was healed by MY FAITH. And I don't serve a 'sometimes' God.

I wasn't making my comments TO you, but as an answer to what you were saying. You implied that physical healing is part of the atonement and that God WILL always heal anyone who asks him in faith. I disagree with you though I agree that no one can tell you anything as it seems your mind is already set.

For the record, I did not go to a faith healer, but followed Scriptural guidelines for the pastor and elder of my church coming to my home and praying for my healing. I was not healed and I accept that God has his purpose in allowing this suffering in my life as he has done in others lives, as well. That was the point of my comment lest anyone reading yours would go away thinking they had to add a failure of their faith to the pain they were already experiencing.

This does not in any way imply that God is a "sometimes" God, quite the contrary. Almighty God is sovereign over all, nothing is outside of his power to do, He ALONE is to be glorified even when it appears His answer to prayers for healing is "not now" or, even, "no". The TRUE test of faith is how we accept his will when it goes against our own "druthers". Again, I repeat, God is not Santa God. He does not perform on command. He does not bring into our lives anything - even healing - if it does not conform to His perfect will and a mature faith grows as it realizes He never stops loving us.

804 posted on 03/03/2012 4:59:57 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: CynicalBear
Why do you make the assumption they didn’t? They did leave as did I.

The thousands who were full faith left. OK. I didn't make an assumption, it was how your post read.

Who make it about their own failure?

I've read here that some had their faith shaken.

I think his first love was the adulation that his hero Kulman (sp?) had.

Did he become a Christian thru her ministry?

805 posted on 03/03/2012 5:02:17 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; boatbums; CynicalBear; caww; metmom
"It's good to see you know that. 'I am The Lord that heals you', God never changes and 'He is no respecter of persons.'...

Shouldn't you have put an asterisk right there with a footnote that reads: "well almost never. There IS Paul...and Timothy..."

It only takes one to make your statement Scripturally wrong. And here are two. Another reason to compare Scripture with Scripture to find TRUTH.

806 posted on 03/03/2012 5:04:45 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: presently no screen name
I'm not sure where this negative, condemning attitude is coming from other than that I simply disagree with you about some points and, apparently, your pride is hurt. We are all advancing the conversation, or trying to. Perhaps if my words come across as "snooty" or "teachery", it is because you don't like to be disagreed with because you DO think you know it all. I can take it because I don't expect everyone to see things exactly as I do all the time and I can respect the path each person is going down as they mature in their faith. Try it sometime.
807 posted on 03/03/2012 5:09:59 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: smvoice
Three.....

2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus remained at Corinth, and I left Trophimus, who was ill, at Miletus.

808 posted on 03/03/2012 5:13:33 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: boatbums
You implied that physical healing is part of the atonement and that God WILL always heal anyone who asks him in faith.

Can't you get anything right. I never said who 'asks' HIM. If I ask what does that say about my faith? I believe.

I disagree with you though I agree that no one can tell you anything as it seems your mind is already set.

You certainly can't - on that my mind is set.

coming to my home and praying for my healing.

My mistake, you didn't go anywhere - he came to you. Details, details.

I could get into how wrong you are but I'm am not inclined in the least as your mind is set that God has a greater purpose for sickness. That's really an offensive to God.

809 posted on 03/03/2012 5:14:55 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: metmom; boatbums; presently no screen name; caww; CynicalBear

ooops...you’re right. Three, and counting...


810 posted on 03/03/2012 5:21:57 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: presently no screen name; boatbums

Keep listening to Curry Blake. He addresses the issue of the role of the faith of the sick person in healing.

And I strongly suspect that you’re going to like it.


811 posted on 03/03/2012 5:31:56 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name; metmom; smvoice; CynicalBear
Can't you get anything right. I never said who 'asks' HIM. If I ask what does that say about my faith? I believe.

I get quite a bit "right" because I know the word of God. Again, where is this bitter hostility coming from?

My mistake, you didn't go anywhere - he came to you. Details, details.

Details? It wasn't a "faith healer" that came but the pastor and an elder like in James 5:14-16 "Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven." You've read that part, right?

I could get into how wrong you are but I'm am not inclined in the least as your mind is set that God has a greater purpose for sickness. That's really an offensive to God.

You have certainly tried to tell me how wrong I and others are but when we disagree as well as quote from Scripture, you seem to refuse to hear it. That would be offensive to God.

812 posted on 03/03/2012 5:32:12 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums
I'm not sure where this negative, condemning attitude is coming from other than that I simply disagree with you about some points and, apparently, your pride is hurt.

There you go again - saying what you don't know - just that is sounds good to you. One only has to read your posts and have them self a good laugh at how much you think of yourself. You are projecting.

my words come across as "snooty" or "teachery", it is because you don't like to be disagreed with because you DO think you know it all.

There you go again. You words didn't come across other than what they were. And that I DO know. I really could give a flip if you agree with me or not - it has NO bearing on my life at all. Not strange of you to think you are that important though.

I can take it because I don't expect everyone to see things exactly as I do all the time and I can respect the path each person is going down as they mature in their faith. Try it sometime.

You did it again. That is not a sign of maturity but a self imposed superiority.

813 posted on 03/03/2012 5:32:54 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; boatbums; metmom; caww; CynicalBear
"...that God has a greater purpose for sickness. That's really an offensive to God."

Then you need to tell Him that Paul lied. "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most GLADLY THEREFORE will I rather glory in my INFIRMITIES, that the POWER OF CHRIST may REST UPON ME. Therefore I take PLEASURE IN INFIRMITIES, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses FOR CHRIST'S SAKE; for WHEN I AM WEAK, THEN AM I STRONG." 2 Cor. 12:9,10.

I know, an oldie but a goodie. It's amazing how many times this Scripture MUST be given to remind some that God has HIS purposes for us.

814 posted on 03/03/2012 5:34:23 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

But.... but...... but......


815 posted on 03/03/2012 5:41:29 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

:)


816 posted on 03/03/2012 5:55:38 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: boatbums; presently no screen name; smvoice; CynicalBear; caww
Details? It wasn't a "faith healer" that came but the pastor and an elder like in James 5:14-16 "Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven." You've read that part, right?

OK pnsn, then could you please explain why, after God giving us through the divine inspiration of Scripture instructions as to go about procuring healing and someone follows those instructions, that they are NOT healed?

And the excuse of the afflicted person not having enough faith doesn't wash for two reasons.

First off, Luke 17:5-6 5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” 6 And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

Matthew 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”

And....

How is calling for the elders and being anointed with oil according to Scripture NOT demonstrating enough faith to be healed? The person obviously had enough faith to act on it.

Now if the amount of a person's faith is is the criteria for being healed, then when they aren't healed, what happens? Their faith is judged as inadequate by those around them who based their judgment on outward signs, IOW, because God didn't do in their lives what everyone else thought should have happened.

That is putting yourself in the position of judging God and your fellow believer based on outward appearances, something we are not to do.

Do you know what kind of damage can be done to a person's walk with Christ, particularly a baby Christian, when they are told that they don't have enough faith?

That is absolutely inexcusable.

I was by no means a baby Christian when I started encountering that mindset, and I still struggled with it, until I reached the point of realizing that they were WRONG and ignoring them. But not everyone has that kind of maturity or fortitude.

817 posted on 03/03/2012 5:58:21 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: smvoice

They forget we still have bodies under the fall....our souls have een redeemed but not our bodies. If all they say was true then they should all be in perfect health now. But even the healers were plagued with long term illnesses they kept under wraps until after they died and it was revealed.

God is gracious to take events and happenings and illnesses and use them for His good and purposes....we go thru life and life is difficult..He said it would be so...but along the way HE meets us and with us to see us thru.

As for those who cannot accept your scripture reference....to do so would rob them of the “other” add ons and they just won’t give them up.


818 posted on 03/03/2012 6:03:06 PM PST by caww
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To: caww; metmom; boatbums; CynicalBear; presently no screen name
AMEN, caww. "For our conversation is IN HEAVEN; from whence also we LOOK FOR THE SAVIOUR, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." Philippians 3:20,21.

As long as we are in these bodies, they are VILE. We are told to put no confidence in the flesh. The outer man is perishing daily. And yet, there are those whose sole purpose is praying for a healing of this vile body? And if He chooses NOT to heal it, then WHAT? WHAT are they left with, if all their hope and faith is in that healing? Certainly this Scripture comes to mind:

Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made SHIPWRECK:.."1 Tim. 1:19.

If faith can only be in a healing experience, then IF that healing doesn't occur, that faith is made shipwreck. And it has taken all other forms of our faith right down with it. That is a person who is no longer an effective workman for Christ. Who will stand ashamed before Him one day, having lost all because their "faith" was placed in one "proof" that God WOULD, not that God has His own plan.

819 posted on 03/03/2012 6:19:47 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: caww; smvoice
They forget we still have bodies under the fall....our souls have een redeemed but not our bodies.

And even though we are perfect in Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places, we are not perfect yet. The old nature is very much alive, we still all sin, we are still here on earth, not up IN heaven.

The redemption of our souls and bodies is both completed and has not yet been completed.

Easy and pat answers just don't cut it. I've known far too many really mature Christians and very godly people who deal with health issues. They are not healed.

For that matter, the miraculous healings that the faith movement claims, just is NOT there. There is a staggering difference between the healings claimed and reality, and reality just does not line up with their doctrine of how it SHOULD be, or how they would like it to be.

James 1:2-4 2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

820 posted on 03/03/2012 6:23:16 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name
>>I've read here that some had their faith shaken.<<

Benny Hinn used that line often that it’s the persons faith that is weak if there is no healing. If that person came with respect for Hinn and believed he was indeed of God being told that can shake their faith especially if they are a new Christian.

>>Did he become a Christian thru her ministry?<<

As I remember it no. I believe he saw her first in 1974 when she did meetings in Israel. He followed her back to the US and continued to follow her until her death in 1976.

821 posted on 03/03/2012 6:44:34 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: smvoice
You post it as if I didn't know it. And there is NO lie in HIS WORD - just so you know.

One of the main reasons many people interpret Paul's thorn in the flesh as a sickness is because of the use of the word "infirmities." Yet the word "infirmity" is not limited to sickness. The word literally means "lack or inadequacy." It was used that way in Romans 8:26 when it referred to not knowing how to pray as we should. The NIV translates this word as "weakness" not sickness.

The Lord didn't remove Paul's thorn because Jesus didn't redeem believers from persecution. In persecution, the Lord doesn't deliver believers; He strengthens them to be able to bear all things, thereby bringing glory to Himself.

The Lord was telling Paul that when he gave up, then the Lord took over.

822 posted on 03/03/2012 6:47:37 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: grey_whiskers
I find it interesting that in your earlier conversation, you cut-and-pasted yourself directly from this site about Job being the only person afflicted by a demon when it wasn't their fault (paraphrasing, more or less), despite the fact that I was able to come up with multiple Old Testament examples off of the top of my head, and Quix later gave a New Testament example. So if they get the facts so wrong, and spend most of their time attacking other Christians, why give them the time of day?

Your "paraphrasing" is a little off. The quote said:

    Wimber's doctrine of Demonology was thoroughly unscriptural; he saw demons behind many physical illnesses, and most emotional problems, entering into people, both lost and saved, in varying degrees, either for "possession" or "oppression," so as to control all or some aspects of their lives. "There is no biblical basis for the notion that demons are free to cause illnesses outside the context of full demon possession. [And the power of Satan to enter and "possess" souls uninvited; i.e., at the whim of the demon, was ended at Christ's resurrection.] The only case in the Bible of a person who suffered from an illness caused by Satan without being demon possessed, is that of Job" (Masters, p. 86).

    But even then, Satan had to secure permission from God, which would indicate that Satan and his demons have no power to inflict illnesses in the ordinary course of events. To treat illnesses on the basis of a demon needing to be expelled from a particular organ, as Wimber taught, is an idea derived from pagan religious cults and/or the priestcraft of Rome, not from the Bible. Believers will certainly do battle with the wiles and temptations wrought by Satan, "but nowhere in the New Testament is temptation resisted by a process of commanding demons to loose their hold or leave a Christian's mind or body. Satan is resisted by being denied success in the temptation. Or if he mounts an attack of depressive suggestions, he is resisted as the believer strives to keep hold of the comfort and promises of God's Word" (Masters, p. 92). (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/wimber/general.htm

I don't blame you for not liking the author's views towards Catholicism, but they gave direct quotes from Wimber as well as personal witness testimony of his workings. I thought you would want to read about John Wimber to get a balanced look at a person you admitted you knew nothing about. I find it curious that some here are so gung-ho about him and his ministry that they totally neglect to see the many ways that he failed to uphold the Gospel as well as the truths from Holy Scripture. He was also either naive or knowingly advancing New Age philosophy within his own ministry. From the same link:

    Wimber was on Renovaré's "Board of Reference" -- Renovaré is an international, New Age, ecumenical organization that emanates from the religious traditions of Quakerism, whose message is that today's Church is missing out on some wonderful spiritual experiences that can only be found by studying and practicing the "meditative" and "contemplative" lifestyle "of early Christianity." In actuality, Renovaré espouses the use of the early pagan traditions of guided imagery and visualization, astral projection, "Zen" prayer techniques for meditation (i.e., Buddhism), and Jungian psychology (i.e., a blend of Eastern mysticism and Roman Catholic mystical spiritual tradition, which nicely fits the New Age model), all as means of obtaining "personal spiritual renewal" in the lives of believers. (For a more detailed analysis of Renovaré and the teachings of its co-directors, psychologist Richard Foster and William Vaswig, see Media Spotlight's Special Report of March, 1992: "Renovaré: Taking Leave of One's Senses.")

823 posted on 03/03/2012 6:59:34 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: metmom; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name; boatbums
>>For that matter, the miraculous healings that the faith movement claims, just is NOT there.<<

There are several people who have followed up on the healings claimed by Kuhlman and have exposed them as fake or at least psychosomatic. Conesus is more along the lines that she was a separatist. One of the hints when listening to a so called “faith healer” is the glory they give the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit always put Jesus first and gave glory to Him.

824 posted on 03/03/2012 7:01:42 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: boatbums
You apparently missed my point: before reading on Wimber, I evaluated the quality of the link with the information *about* him.

I concluded that the link itself was unreliable, so I didn't bother reading about Wimber.

Ergo, I still know nothing (nor care much) about him.

Cheers!

825 posted on 03/03/2012 7:02:25 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: metmom
And the excuse of the afflicted person not having enough faith doesn't wash for two reasons

Why tell me - I never said that "excuse".

That is putting yourself in the position of judging God and your fellow believer based on outward appearances, something we are not to do.

Watch yourself there! I see it is you that is judging and going on a rant of what I never said!

Do you know what kind of damage can be done to a person's walk with Christ, particularly a baby Christian, when they are told that they don't have enough faith? That is absolutely inexcusable.

Didn't Jesus talk about the mustard seed, the smallest of seeds and moving mountains? So why crumble what man says? Where is your faith in what God said?

Did someone tell you that it's easy sailing as a Christian? When you suffered what Paul suffered, then we can talk.

826 posted on 03/03/2012 7:10:41 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; metmom; boatbums; caww; CynicalBear

..and I guess that means Timothy had a thorn in his stomach...pnsn, at some point you need to believe God means what He says and says what He means. That He does what He does, when He wants, and WHY He wants. He does the things He does for HIS purposes, not ours. Faith KNOWS this. And accepts it, knowing it is for HIS GLORY. EVERYTHING is for His Glory. Strengths, weaknesses, sufferings, victories, safety, in peril, rich, poor, faith remains unwavering.


827 posted on 03/03/2012 7:16:21 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: grey_whiskers

Okee, dokee. Nevermind. :o)


828 posted on 03/03/2012 7:23:37 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: presently no screen name; metmom
WHOA..wait a minute. "When you suffered what Paul suffered, then we can talk."

What? Why, according to your beliefs, did Paul suffer? Lack of faith? Not praying hard enough, long enough, loud enough? No one to lay hands on him? From what you've been saying, Paul suffered needlessly. All he had to do is have faith that God would relieve him from his suffering. And it would have been answered.

829 posted on 03/03/2012 7:26:09 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: metmom
Yeah, yeah - some people have tried to use the fact that Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletum, to teach that healing is not for everyone. The reasoning is that if Paul left Trophimus sick instead of healing him, then that shows that God doesn't always want to heal us. After all, this was the mighty Apostle Paul, and if his associate wasn't healed then why do we think we can always be healed?

First, it is wrong to think that someone can be healed solely on the faith of another. Jesus couldn't heal all those He wanted to heal in His hometown of Nazareth Mark 6:5-6 because of their unbelief Matt 13:58, not His.

Also, it sometimes takes time to receive a healing. This verse didn't say that Trophimus stayed sick. He may have but he may have just had a little difficulty receiving his healing and Paul didn't have time to wait on the manifestation. It's possible that Trophimus was healed and caught up with Paul or ministered in some other way.

It's also possible that Trophimus just quit believing God so Paul decided to leave him there sick. There are other possibilities, but there is no reason to interpret Paul leaving Trophimus sick at Miletum, as some indication that God doesn't want us to be healed. You can, though, if it makes you feel better.

830 posted on 03/03/2012 7:47:33 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; metmom
Metmom: And the excuse of the afflicted person not having enough faith doesn't wash for two reasons

PNSN: Why tell me - I never said that "excuse".

PNSN(in this thread post #639):
AMEN!!! INDEED they ARE!!! But those who don't believe will never receive healings, etc.. They will get what they believed for.

If you have "never said that excuse", then what HAVE you been saying all this time?

In post #801, you said, "I was healed by my faith." So, do you believe a person's faith is what heals their sicknesses and those who are not healed do not have enough faith? This dialog started out disputing that certain people today have the gift of healing from the Holy Spirit. You seemed to be arguing FOR that position. No one is "ranting", just trying to pin down what your point really is. So far you have been as clear as mud.

831 posted on 03/03/2012 7:52:15 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: presently no screen name; metmom

pnsn, you are quickly twisting yourself into a pretzel of explanations to try to explain away the clear meaning of God’s word. Very close to defending something that is indefensible. Prayerfully study God’s word of truth.


832 posted on 03/03/2012 7:52:34 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice
He was imprisoned, shipwrecking, left for dead - take you pick and there is more.

All he had to do is have faith that God would relieve him from his suffering. And it would have been answered.

Suffering persecution is not sickness - surely, you know that.

833 posted on 03/03/2012 7:55:19 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: smvoice

Thanks for your concern - but I believe HIM. Go have a pretzel on me.


834 posted on 03/03/2012 8:01:26 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; metmom

So you believe GOd will heal your sickness, with enough faith, but not your other sufferings?


835 posted on 03/03/2012 8:02:28 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: presently no screen name; smvoice; metmom; CynicalBear; caww
All he had to do is have faith that God would relieve him from his suffering. And it would have been answered. Suffering persecution is not sickness - surely, you know that.

Yet Paul DID get martyred didn't he? As did ALL the apostles, except John - though they certainly tried to do him in several times. Whatever the "affliction" Paul suffered - and many theologians believed it was an eye problem - he learned a lesson IN FAITH when God did NOT take it from him. I highly doubt this affliction was persecution as he had already experienced some and knew he had much more to suffer for the name of Christ. He would not have prayed for God to give him a cushy life free from persecution. In fact he said he knew what it was like to abound and to be abased and the lesson he learned was that in whatever state he was, therewith to be content. What kind of witness would it have been for Paul to be asking God repeatedly to take away persecution from him when people all around him were suffering it, too?

836 posted on 03/03/2012 8:05:48 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums
You seemed to be arguing FOR that position

You 'seemed' wrong again!

No one is "ranting",

LOL!!!!!

just trying to pin down what your point really is. So far you have been as clear as mud.

Clear as mud to you? Well it can stay that way for you. Some more for you to sling.

837 posted on 03/03/2012 8:10:01 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: smvoice

He already did and please, read the Word, as it is very clear about persecution.


838 posted on 03/03/2012 8:13:14 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: metmom; presently no screen name; grey_whiskers

REALLY?

I don’t know where you got that notion about folks think they can say only good things.

Oh, perhaps from a SCRIPTURE about

speaking only

whatsoever things be lovely, of good report etc.?

LOL.

The FR Religion forum !!!!TRADITION!!!!

is to throw dozens of buckets

of rocks, first, middle, last and always.

Say positive things only when absolutely forced to.

Impressive.

NOT.


839 posted on 03/03/2012 8:22:57 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: presently no screen name; metmom; boatbums; caww; CynicalBear
So...Paul's infirmity wasn't "illness". And Trophimus' healing may not have been an "immediate healing", but one that "took some time". Or Paul "didn't have time to wait on the manifestation". Or perhaps "Trophimus just quit believing God" so "Paul, (whose infirmity "wasn't illness) just decided to leave him there". Maybe to check on Timothy to see if his thorn in the stomach had gotten better...

CAN'T YOU SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING HERE? Making up stories to "prove" your point. There was another FReeper who recently went through this. "Maybe it was this, or maybe it was that. But it CERTAINLY wasn't what God said it was. Because that doesn't match what I believe."

Deny the truth and defend the deceit. It seems to be the new craze with some.

840 posted on 03/03/2012 8:32:34 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice
Making up stories

You think so? Does God reveal all? You better simmer down. It doesn't bother me what you believe, you don't see me going nuts - you believe God doesn't heal and you don't get healed. No biggie. You get what you expect. I KNOW HE HEALS. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

Now I'll leave your children to play in the mud.

841 posted on 03/03/2012 8:47:13 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

ONCE MORE TIME: I did NOT say God does NOT HEAL. I said, as we all have said, that God does not have HEALERS. There are NO PEOPLE who can command God by the laying on of hands to heal someone. God heals who HE heals. Not because of a divine healER. There is no gift of divine HEALERS in this age of grace. Get it straight.


842 posted on 03/03/2012 8:51:33 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: presently no screen name
No one is "ranting",

LOL!!!!!

I was trying to be generous. There ARE several ranters here especially the ones unwilling to explain their jigs and jags while accusing others of slinging mud and throwing rocks while they are doing exactly that AND those who are unable to answer a question from another Christian without derogatory comments and snide asides.

Clear as mud to you? Well it can stay that way for you. Some more for you to sling.

Thanks for the excellent example of what I just stated. It wasn't all that long ago that we were allies in the cause of the Gospel. Is this issue THAT important to you that you cannot carry on a respectful conversation? Your comments have NOT been consistent and I'm not the only one saying so. Is it more important to insult that to just give an answer?

843 posted on 03/03/2012 8:57:58 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: presently no screen name
Simmer down?

"Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE." 2 Tim. 4:2.

I bet you DO wish I would "simmer down". But alas, I am going to continue to follow 2 Tim. 4:2 everytime I see false doctrine being given.

Don't like the Scripture I give? Relax. Have a cigar. It's all good behind rose-colored glasses.

844 posted on 03/03/2012 8:58:54 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: boatbums
Oh, incidentally (not incendiary) your post failed to address what I intended to be one of the main points about my earlier post: which is that the source which talks about Job, *incorrectly* claimed that Job was the only one who suffered from an illness caused by Satan *without being demon possessed* : Saul the King before David was afflicted by a demon, which affliction was relieved by David's music.

The point I was stressing wasn't whether or not the Demon got permission (that is common to all Biblical accounts) but whether Job was the only one it happened to.

Cheers!

845 posted on 03/03/2012 9:03:42 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers
Oh, incidentally (not incendiary) your post failed to address what I intended to be one of the main points about my earlier post: which is that the source which talks about Job, *incorrectly* claimed that Job was the only one who suffered from an illness caused by Satan *without being demon possessed* : Saul the King before David was afflicted by a demon, which affliction was relieved by David's music. The point I was stressing wasn't whether or not the Demon got permission (that is common to all Biblical accounts) but whether Job was the only one it happened to.

The article that I used was in response to John Wimber's who "saw demons behind many physical illnesses, and most emotional problems, entering into people, both lost and saved, in varying degrees, either for "possession" or "oppression," so as to control all or some aspects of their lives." the article continues "There is no biblical basis for the notion that demons are free to cause illnesses outside the context of full demon possession. [And the power of Satan to enter and "possess" souls uninvited; i.e., at the whim of the demon, was ended at Christ's resurrection.] The only case in the Bible of a person who suffered from an illness caused by Satan without being demon possessed, is that of Job".

When you mention that Saul was "afflicted" by a demon, in Samuel 16:14, we are told that the spirit of the Lord had left Saul and an "evil spirit from the Lord tormented him". This does not say Saul was suffering an illness, but that he was "tormented" and David's music relieved him. In verse 23 of Samuel 16, "Whenever the spirit from God came on Saul, David would take up his lyre and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him." In Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, we read:

    And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul,.... See 1 Samuel 16:14 though the word evil is not in the text here; wherefore Abarbinel thinks that this here was the Spirit of God, which stirred up in him thoughts of divine things, put him in mind of what God had said, that he had rejected him from being king, and had rent the kingdom from him; and this filled him with grief and trouble, and he became melancholy:

    that David took an harp, and played with his hands; upon it; and, as Josephus (r) says, at the same time sung hymns and psalms; made use both of vocal and instrumental music:

    so Saul was refreshed, and was well; became cheerful, his grief was removed, his black and gloomy apprehensions of things were dispersed, and he was cured of his melancholy disorder for the present:

    and the evil spirit departed from him: at least for a while; he had his fits and intervals; of the effects of music in a natural way; see Gill on 1 Samuel 16:16, though no doubt the music of David was more than natural, being attended with the power and blessing of God, in order to raise his fame and credit at court.

The gist of the criticism of Wimber was his teachings that nearly all sickness and most emotional problems were a result of demons entering into both saved and unsaved people to control and oppress them. The author was stating that there is no Biblical basis for the notion that demons are free to cause illnesses outside the context of full demon possession. With the example of Job, Satan was permitted by God to afflict Job. And this "would indicate that Satan and his demons have no power to inflict illnesses in the ordinary course of events. To treat illnesses on the basis of a demon needing to be expelled from a particular organ, as Wimber taught, is an idea derived from pagan religious cults and/or the priestcraft of Rome, not from the Bible. Believers will certainly do battle with the wiles and temptations wrought by Satan, "but nowhere in the New Testament is temptation resisted by a process of commanding demons to loose their hold or leave a Christian's mind or body. Satan is resisted by being denied success in the temptation. Or if he mounts an attack of depressive suggestions, he is resisted as the believer strives to keep hold of the comfort and promises of God's Word."

In the case of Saul, it is STILL not a demon, of its own will, afflicting a person and not possessing them. This was the point of the article then and I do not think they made an error by speaking of Job being the only example of illness afflicted by Satan. Whatever Saul was troubled by - an evil spirit from God - it does not say it was Satan. In the common Hebrew text, the word "evil" is not there. In Wesley's Notes, he says, "16:23 Departed - Namely, for a season. And the reason of this success, may be, partly natural, and partly, supernatural, respecting David; whom God designed by this means to bring into favour with the king, and so to smooth the way for his advancement." So men who teach like Wimber that demons are the cause of all suffering and they must be "bound" in order to heal people, is simply not backed up by Scripture.

I don't know if this will get you to read the whole article or not, but it IS interesting what gets passed off as Biblical in the realm of "faith-healers" and their ilk. Have a good night!

846 posted on 03/03/2012 10:40:58 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums
You and I are apparently talking past each other. No animosity, but I prefer to spend my time on FR on other things.

Have a good night.

847 posted on 03/03/2012 10:54:22 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: presently no screen name; boatbums; CynicalBear; smvoice; caww; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; ...
I was healed by MY FAITH. And I don't serve a 'sometimes' God.

Back when I first became a Christian, some 30+ years ago, late 70's, there was an incident of a woman who went to a faith healer. She had epilepsy and diabetes. He prayed for her and told her she was healed.

He believed it. She believed it. She believed it enough that she went OFF her medication, BELIEVING that she had been and was healed.

She died from her UNHEALED after all, conditions.

I remember it so clearly because of the response of all the non-Christians to the incident. I heard *That's what you get for following the Bible*.

Now, what she did is perfectly in line with the current teaching of the charismatic/pentecostal movement today.

He believed she was healed and told her she was. She believed it to the point of going off her medications, which I have heard people advocate to *prove* that they (I) had enough faith to be healed. She was *walking out* her *healing*. (And I've been told the same thing by plenty of well meaning but misguided Christians)

I have actually heard and been told that when I am prayed for I am healed and that if I continue to have symptoms, that they are just lies of the enemy, his deceit to make me think that I haven't been healed. I should not accept that, but *pray it through*. What I need to do in that case is rebuke the lie and deny the reality of the symptoms because they really aren't real, and walk out the reality of my healing, claiming it for it to be so, acting as if it is so and it WILL BE so.

Now, likely this is what this lady was also told, although I do not know for sure, but what I do know is that according to the theology of the current charismatic/pentecostal movement today, she was doing everything *right*. And yet she died.

OK, pnsn, what went wrong? Did he not have enough faith? Did she not have enough faith? Where was God in that?

Someone with enough faith in their healing to go off their meds has more *faith* than I have because if I'm still having symptoms, I am not presuming that I have been healed yet.

I have no doubt that when the time comes that God should heal me of this health issue, that I will KNOW it. I KNOW I will feel it in my body and I am sure that there will be a concurrent healing in my mind that will allow me to accept that and eat without fear. I am not more powerful than God's healing that I can block what He's going to do.

848 posted on 03/04/2012 1:23:52 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name; smvoice
One of the main reasons many people interpret Paul's thorn in the flesh as a sickness is because of the use of the word "infirmities."

How about the fact that the thorn was in his FLESH? Forget the word infirmities, which CAN mean anything. It clearly says *flesh*- his physical body was affected.

Maybe God didn't remove it to keep him from getting all puffed up about himself and the amount of his faith and acting like a know it all with a condescending attitude towards them because he was great enoguh to get healed and they weren't, as I see allllll toooo often in church.

849 posted on 03/04/2012 1:30:41 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name
Yeah, yeah - some people have tried to use the fact that Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletum, to teach that healing is not for everyone.

Sorry that doesn't fit in with your theology but facts are facts.

Your litany of excuses as to why that is the case is without basis.

It take s time to be healed, eh? And Jesus did how many delayed healings?

And how long do I have to wait? Ten years? Twenty years? Going on thirty years now.....?

I've been prayed for and anointed with oil time without count. I've done it the James way and the pentecostal faith healer way, and nothing.....

So then what? It all gets back to it being my fault because my faith is "inadequate".

Well, there's that judgment and condemnation again, more lies of the enemy from the lips of those who claim to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Nice.

850 posted on 03/04/2012 1:40:07 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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