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Skip to comments.Saul And The Charismatics...
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didnt He promise us that
it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didnt begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by its leaders and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he felt was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldnt go by the Word, but by feelings. God called that rebellion and even witchcraft,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all little gods, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the deliverance movement which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive shepherding movement?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into spiritual drunkenness and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul
At the end of Sauls life, he went into the occult. God wasnt speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlmans tomb, to get an impartation of her anointing!
One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimees tomb in California. This Thursday Im on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlmans tomb. Its close by Aimees in Forest Lawn Cemetery. Ive been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where shes buried is closed, they built walls around it. You cant get in without a key and Im one of the very few people who can get in. But Ill never forget when I saw Aimees tomb. Its incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. Asas incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, II, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimees tomb. I was shaking all over. Gods power came all over me. I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimees body. I know this may be shocking to you. And Im going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. Theyre gonna come with me. Youyouyou gonna feel the anointing at Aimees tomb. Its incredible. And Kathryns. Its amazing. Ive heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by Gods power. You say, What a crazy thing. Brother, theres things well never understand. Are you all hearing me?11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinns followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult Gods instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to honor the Generals of revival, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
Honoring them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a generals library for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally soaking the anointing by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students Soaking Anointing Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but the delusion, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
Amen! They are not the answer....Christ Jesus is...and until they "focus" on the Christ rather than the Healers, and on Christ rather than the healing. Then it's most difficult to take these false events as anything other than what they are...a farce and deception to distract from the Gospel message of Christ in me the hope of Glory... and damaging to the Body of believers and those who might come.
So stand tall in Him ...in righteous judgement... on all which opposes the clear teachings of Christ.
Now we have to wait for God to tell us we're healed?
Whatever happened to just believe and it will be so?
You forgot the first part of that verse, as follows, and which clarifies in what context doubt is being used...important to consider....
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. .....PERSEVERANCE MUST FINISH ITS WORK..... so that .....you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything...... If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given him...... But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does .....(James 1:1-8).
Perseverance is the ability to keep right on going with joy in our hearts despite apparent setbacks and disappointments, illnesses, hardships etc. and this seems to be a quality that the Lord values almost beyond all else.
There is another passage in the Bible that teaches exactly this same thing. .....in Romans 5...... Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.... Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance .
Notice the same sequence Sufferings joy perseverance .
Suffering produces perseverance;.. perseverance,.. character;.. and character,.. hope... And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.
From our perspective, stress and strain and problems and pain are those things that mar our lives....... but from Gods perspective, those are the things that develop our faith ....and our perseverance and make us people of maturity..... James said: Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Ah...Just to clarify what the 'stripes' Christ suffered accomplished..and of which we are healed as follows:
The healing here referred to, is 'spiritual healing', or healing from sin...... Pardon of sin, and restoration to the favor of God,.....these are not unfrequently represented as an act of healing.
The fact sinners are often represented as crushed,.. broken,... bruised ...by the weight of their transgressions, and so the removal of the load of sin is repesented as an act of healing.
'I said, O Lord, be merciful unto me; heal my soul, for I have sinned againt thee' Psalm 41:4.
Have mercy upon me, O Lord, for I am weak; O Lord, heal me, for my bones are vexed' Psalm 6:2.
The idea here is, that the Messiah would be scourged; and that it would be by that scourging that health would be imparted.... 'to our souls'.
'Sin' is a disease belonging to all men, a natural, hereditary, nauseous, and incurable one, ...but by the blood of Christ; forgiving sin is 'a healing of this disease'; and this is to be had in no other way than through the stripes and wounds,.. the blood and sacrifice,.. of the Son of God.
"By My Stripes you were healed" Really? That's a quote from Scripture? Chapter and verse please?
And while healing comes through His stripes, the verse does NOT say that everyone will be healed on demand.
It just states that the mechanism for healing is through the stripes so that if we're healed, we know how it came about.
With all the emphasis on physical healing, people often forget that there’s emotional healing and mental healing as well and they are not insignificant.
I’ve gotten a LOT of emotional healing recently, but it doesn’t show, now does it?
But no, that’s not good enough either. It HAS to be physical healing, although I wouldn’t trade off for that in a heart beat. The not eating is nothing compared to the emotional mess I was before.
I’ve been on most sides of such issues.
I’ve also extended everyone on this thread enormous understanding and compassion repeatedly over a lot of years hereon.
It’s been quite interesting to see what’s NOT RETURNED in such regards to the slightest degree. Very impressively “Christian” in all the terms y’all have been screaming at me so much about.
Quix, the rest of us see you on a dangerous path to deception.
We are trying to warn you of what we see as a danger to you that you seem to be unaware of. We are posting Scripture to substantiate ourselves and get cartoons in return.
You want to see that as rock throwing and lacking in compassion and understanding, well, nobody can stop you. However, as a psychologist, you ought to be able to see the projecting that we see you engaging in.
Disagreeing with you does not make a martyr out of you. Warning you of danger we see to you does not make a martyr out of you. That label isn’t wearing well on you. Let it go.
On Sickness and afflictions:
Some sicknesses are from God....
....”Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?” ...Exodus 4:11
God made the disabled and infirm..... Babies are born every day with defects. ....Many children grow up with congenital deformities. ....Some people have illnesses that last for years..... While it is unexplainable according to our human logic, it is all part of God’s sovereign, loving plan.
Some sicknesses are from Satan......
God may allow Satan to inflict illness for His own sovereign reasons..... The classic example is Job... Job chapter 1 also Luke 13:11-13
Some sickness is God’s chastisement for sin. .....
....”Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep Thy word” .....Ps. 119:67.. also Numbers 12.. Deut. 28:20-22... 2 Kings 5
God tormenting the Egyptians with skin boils... Ex. 9:8-12
Inflicting King Jeroboam with leprosy....2 Kings 15:5
Striking Saul with blindness ....Acts 9:1-19
The Bible also tells us plainly that God disciplines the Church through sickness, hardship, and even death... 1 Cor. 11:28-30... Heb. 12:7... Acts 5:1-11 ......
That we should joyfully accept trials “of many kinds” because God uses them to make us mature James 1:2-4... Psalm 119:71,75. .......
Clearly God allows and even causes sickness for His own sovereign purposes.
Nothing like having health problems to get our attention focused on God.
I don’t know of really any people who sought God when they were fat, dumb, and happy. When things are going well in any area of our lives, we don’t see the need to seek God. We think we can handle it on our own.
Nothing like having health problems to cut the ego down to size. It can force us into a corner that forces us to look up instead of in, just like financial hardship. People only cry out to God when they’re having problems and there’s nothing so near and dear to our hearts as our health and prosperity.
You are not supposed to be engaged in martyrdom. You are supposed to be engaged in being an ambassador for Christ. Preaching to the lost the reconciliation that God is offering man based purely on the finished work of Christ. That is our commission. When is the last time you laid aside your signs, wonders, miracles, speaking in tongues, etc. for the gospel of the grace of God?
As God is my witness, I have no animosity toward you. It is the deceit and deception that concerns me. You cannot be a watchman if you are focused on yourself.
1. Thanks for your caring . . . I think.
2. Thankfully, God’s opinion matters most.
3. Thankfully, those I most respect who know me best face to face, as well as on the net, are great accountability Brothers and Sisters.
4. I still think y’all’s perspective is off the wall UNBiblical.
5. As well as dangerously close to ascribing to Holy Spirit evil doings—an extremely hazardous spiritual stance and perspective.
Nowhere has anyone done that.
Depends -- Assemblies of God don't preach quite the same...
PERSEVERANCE MUST FINISH ITS WORK..... so that .....you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Immaturity = thin skinned.
Nowhere has anyone done that.
Bookmark for later reply if I have time: there may have been one or two remarks upthread which I took as close to a categorical denial of the gifts of the Spirit "nowadays".
"Warning, Will Robinson, Danger, Danger."
Stay focused. You brought it up She obviously had enough faith that God could and did heal her to go off her medications. You know this mystery person, I don't.
Whatever happened to just believe and it will be so?
Go to The Word, meditate on it and perhaps it will be found.
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