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Skip to comments.Saul And The Charismatics...
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
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Great piece Bill. I was a child back in those days of the 70’s and my parents came to know Christ personally through that renewal while in the Catholic church (among a group who were relegated to meeting in the basement of the church). (I was raised well by them and later in life came to receive Christ as well.) They left the Catholic church right after then as did most of their friends.
I think this is a familiar situation that happens throughout church history. Martin Luther and other Protestants had the same type of conversions as they through off the shackles of the old church that became more about money and religion and wanted little to do with Christ.
Look at the status of all those reformers churches -now. They became the thing that their founders despised an now reject truth.
The same thing happened with the churches in the “charismatic movement”. It became about money, power, influence and compromise. These clowns with all their books and mega-churches won’t stand up against anything as sin.
The one thing that remains constant is Christ and his truth. America itself can be lumped in with those churches heading to apostasy. Like Israel - we will probably be handed over to our enemies. But at least Israel has an eternal covenant with God and can count on being restored at some point.
Uhhhhhhhh . . .
there was in the Old Testament . . . some folks who tossed a dead man’s body into a grave of a prophet.
When the new dead body touched the prophet’s bones, the newly dead came back to life.
Nonsense is nonsense.
However, none of us have it all figured out.
The errors and assists to hell in the non-charismatic, non-Pentecostal churches may be less obvious, less flashy, less garish . . .
However, they are AT LEAST
And, as varied and plentiful.
Ping to OP and my response at
Your piece is interesting regarding the Charismatic movement. I was very young when it took root. But, I remember how easy it was to call yourself a charismatic because it didn’t threaten anyone! You could call yourself a Christian and it didn’t come with the stigma of judgement. Yet, as much as Jesus loved, forgave, and blessed others; He never backed away from telling the truth about sin and the Father’s punishment. Many Christian churches have run from preaching fire and brimstone and yet isn’t that the very reason why Jesus allowed himself to be hung on a cross?
Quix you are right, there are many things we don’t understand, and e don’t have it all figured out. However please consider;
* The men who threw the body into Elisha’s tomb, weren’t seeking God or His anointing. It was a miracle!
* We are not told that pilgrims went to Elisha’s tomb or any other of the known burial sites of God’s servants, after the miracle in 2 Kings. People then would have understood such as an idolatrous practice.
* True also that the “non charismatic” world equally has errors. I think the whole subject of the apostasy is worth discussing, to “snatch some from the fire” and that we might be prepared for Jesus
* I believe in the baptism of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. I believe Satan has raised up Hinn, Crowder and Bentley to discredit the Spiritual gifts, The problem is that too much of the Charismatic World accepts or at least refuses to discern these charlatons and buffoons.
I am flattered that you think I wrote this, but it was pastorbillrandles in post one. :)
Its (Past) Time for a Charismatic Reformation
1. Lets reform our theology. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is God and He is holy. He is not an it. He is not a blob, a force, or an innate power. We must stop manipulating Him, commanding Him and throwing Him around.
2. Lets return to the Bible. The Word of God is the foundation for the Christian experience. Any dramatic experience, no matter how spiritual it seems, must be tested by the Word and the Holy Spirits discernment. Visions, dreams, prophecies and encounters with angels must be in line with Scripture. If we dont test them we could end up spreading deception.
3. Its time for personal responsibility. We charismatics must stop blaming everything on demons. People are usually the problem.
4. Stop playing games. Spiritual warfare is a reality, but we are not going to win the world to Jesus just by shouting at demonic principalities. We must pray, preach and persevere to see ultimate victory.
5. Stop the foolishness. People who hit, slap or push others during prayer should be asked to sit down until they learn gentleness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
6. End all spiritual extortion now. Christian television ministries must cease and desist from all manipulative fundraising tactics. We must stop giving platforms to ministers who make outlandish claims of supernatural financial returns, especially when Scripture is twisted, deadlines are imposed and the poor are exploited.
7. No more Lone Rangers. Those who claim to be ministers of Godwhether they are traveling evangelists, local pastors or heads of ministriesmust be accountable to other leaders. Any who refuse to submit their lives to godly discipline should be corrected.
8. Expose the creeps. Churches should start doing background checks on traveling ministers. Preachers who have been hiding criminal records, lying about their past marriages, preying on women or refusing to pay child support should be exposed as charlatans and shunned if they do not repent.
9. Stop faking the anointing. God is God, and He does not need our help to manifest Himself. That means we dont sprinkle glitter on ourselves to suggest Gods glory is with us, hide fake jewels on the floor to prove we are anointed or pull chicken feathers out of our sleeves to pretend angels are in the room. This is lying to the Holy Spirit.
10. Lets return to purity. Weve had enough scandals. The charismatic church must develop a system for the restoration of fallen ministers. Those who fall morally can be restored, but they must be willing to submit to a process of healing rather than rushing immediately back into the pulpit.
11. We need humility. Ministers who demand celebrity treatment, require lavish salaries, insist on titles or exhibit aloofness from others are guilty of spiritual pride.
12. No more big shots. Apostles are the bondslaves of Christ, and should be the most impeccable models of humility. True apostles do not wield top-down, hierarchical authority over the church. They serve the church from the bottom up as true servants.
13. Never promote gifts at the expense of character. Those who operate in prophecy, healing and miracles must also exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. And while we continue to encourage the gift of tongues, lets make sure we dont treat it like some kind of badge of superiority. The world needs to see our love, not our glossolalia.
14. Hold the prophets accountable. Those who refuse to take responsibility for inaccurate statements should not be given platforms. And prophets who live immoral lives dont deserve a public voice.
15. Lets make the main thing the main thing. The purpose of the Holy Spirits anointing is to empower us to reach others. We are at a crossroads today: Either we continue off-course, entertained by our charismatic sideshows, or we throw ourselves into evangelism, church planting, missions, discipleship, and compassionate ministry that helps the poor and fights injustice. Churches that embrace this New Reformation will focus on Gods priorities.
In due time--when the group of KC prophets (...and again the Toronto airport renewal...) --began exalting spiritual experience over sound doctrine and refused the correction gently offered by the recognized elders & leaders, there were (Biblical) partings of the ways.
God blessed John's devotion to ministry and faithfulness to His Word with many verified healings and powerful works of the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, John Wimber personally led many people to personal salvation in Christ -- usually one at a time-- before any of his detractors even knew his name.
I recommend the pastor/author check his church and movement history carefully before painting the memory of Godly men with such a broad brush.
Romans 14:4 might contain a word of wisdom.
There are lots of people I put on a high shelf and wait and see what God does with or about them.
Off the wall charismatics are easier to throw rocks at.
I don’t know if UNFITTING judgment of others is worse than the gross junk of such folks . . . or not.
It is a hazard.
We reap what we sow.
And haughty judgment has a very ugly harvest.
And that's REGARDLESS of how kosher or off the wall the one being judged is.
The Lord Jesus said: “It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing, the words that I speak, they are spirit and they are life.” (John 6:63)
In another place Jesus said: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but the words that I speak shall never pass away.”
Again, Jesus said: “I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
“....He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name.” (Philippians 2;8b-9)
I met Wimber personally 1:1 in Taipei.
He’s the real deal.
He’s one of the most humble, most authentic, most balanced, most practical most Biblically accurate Bible teachers and Pastors I’ve ever known or known of.
I’ve heard that Billy Graham speaks in tongues privately. If so, his theology may be in the ball park of the standard I observed in John Wimber. Otherwise, John is head and shoulders above Billy Graham, in my book.
There are a couple of books out now by his wife and his daughter. They are well worth reading.
EVERYONE GETS TO PLAY
By John Wimber author and Christy Wimber ed
THE WAY IN IS THE WAY ON by John Wimber:
THE WAY IT WAS by Carol Wimber:
And Kris Vallotton of Bethel’s HEAVY RAIN: RENEW THE CHURCH—Transform The World
& his: DEVELOPING A SUPERNATURAL LIFESTYLE: A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO A LIFE OF SIGNS, WONDERS AND MIRACLES
are GREAT, Biblical, edifying, practical
& his SPIRIT WARS looks good but I haven’t read it yet.
If folks followed any of us around 24/7 and published even 20% of what we said every day . . . we’d all be in trouble with big groups of people, detractors, professional rock throwers.
Thanks for your kind & respectful words about the man whom God used to ruin me for the cause of Christ.
His video series are very edifying and greatly humorous.
And virtually all his staff I’ve ever met with or talked to on the phone have been top flight in fruits of The Spirit, too.
“ruined me for . . . “ . . . is that now a well known term? LOL.
The anointing for ministry comes from the Holy Spirit.
Anything anyone contracts or inherits from a dead person is not Him.
I don’t think there’s any comparison between Elijah or Elisha and those high profile charasmatic leaders of today who don’t have half the integrity of those OT prophets.
I’m with pbr on this one. I believe in the baptism of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. I also believe that a lot of error and deception has crept into the Pentecostal movement with it’s emphasis on the gifts, flashy, showy, name it and claim it theology.
People are too busy seeking the Spirit, the power, the healing, tongues, whatever manifestation du jour they hear about and not seeking Christ alone, the author and finisher of our faith.
The Holy Spirit’s job is to point to Christ and lift Him up. People are no longer looking to Jesus but the Spirit.
When I was in church Sunday, the pastor was praying that the Holy Spirit would come and be with us, that He was *invited* etc. No mention of Jesus, who said, where two of three are gathered together, there I am in the midst.
The gifts and manifestations can be faked or counterfeited.
The fruit of the Spirit and Christlikeness can’t.
I graduated from an Assembly of God college in 1992. I left the Pentecostal / Charismatic movement 12 years ago and have never looked back. I am an ordained Southern Baptist pastor today. I have never once regretted my decision and departure from the movement. I am spiritually stronger today than ever. I have a much greater insight into spiritual truth, with a much greater illumination and understanding into the things of God.
Nevertheless, the enemy would love us to throw out the baby with the bath water.
My curiosity would be . . .
what % of such transitions, changes, shifts on the part of how many people
are psychological, emotional, sociological
Back in the day--
I was plodding along with low expectations for the traditional American denominational way of "easy (western) Christianity" --
You know... the four-speed four-door well-marked high-speed expressway to Heaven...
...singing and smiling and picnicking at my leisure along the way...
Our mutual friend sent me home from a conference with a very personal prayer assignment-- and when God answered my heart-cry in that season... It was Christ's calling on my life...
I knew the remainder of my faith journey would require a steep climb--not an easy path; with many risks-- no crowded expressways... no picnic basket...
I also learned that the long distance between "calling" and "commission" was the high road of maturity in Christ's character--and the fruit and power of the Holy Spirit--
...And I wouldn't have it any other way.
Hope this explains...
His grace and peace be with you every step of the way!
So are the Spiritual Gifts actually active today or not? All that I have ever witnessed, especially by these Charismatic types, have always been emotional frauds. They celebrate false prophets and false prophecy, and they hate you when you challenge them.
My conclusion, as a result of all of this, was “blessed are they who have not seen, and yet still believed”. They are focused on “seeing” God, but not on serving Him.
So what is the conclusion here regarding spiritual gifts? Is such a thing as prophecy, healing, or whatnot, active in this day and age? I tend to think not.
I Cor 12-14
should answer such questions for anyone used to taking God at His Word . . .
Given the Power of Holy Spirit, certainly satan has a huge investment in counterfeiting and tarnishing the real thing.
Those who PRESS-IN to God personally know the validity.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
He’s also not about to leave satan with all the supernatural manifestations in this END TIMES period.
However, He tends to do things HIS WAY, AND HIS TIMING and in contexts of His choosing.
And, He seems to like to slice catty wumpus across mortals prissy expectations.
**I have a much greater insight into spiritual truth, with a much greater illumination and understanding into the things of God.**
Has this greater illumination and understanding led you to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins? That’s how people’s sins are remitted according to Jesus and his ordained apostles.
I was raised in a rural, bible study intense, protestant church with much in common with southern baptists, except for sprinkling vs immersion (and like baptists, it was just ‘an outward sign of an inward cleasing’, which is about as anti Acts 2:38 as one can get). Yet, I knew there had to be more to believing; an experience had to be out there. But, my leaders could not testify of something they had yet to experience themselves.
So when I saw the Acts 2 message, and how it culminated in vs 38 and 39, I knew that it was truth, and I had been missing it.
It’s the fulfilling of Jesus command, just as he had told Nicodemas to be born of the water and the Spirit. Just as the Lord said “He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned” (They that don’t believe in His baptism are also unbelievers).
It’s strait and it is narrow and few there be that find it.
quix, am I guilty of “haughty judgment” ? Is that what you are saying? Are we not to be Bereans?
And sadly, that's what happens. Because of people like that and the excesses done, people then react by rejecting all the gifts or some of them. There's very little balance and what I've noticed is that the number of people who are really familiar with how the gifts are to be exercised as laid out in 1 Corinthians 12 & 14 are precious few.
Then what gifts ought to be asked for, and how does one go about asking?
**Given the Power of Holy Spirit, certainly satan has a huge investment in counterfeiting and tarnishing the real thing.**
And the devil was most likely busy before sundown on Pentecost, transforming himself into ‘an angel of light’. Paul spoke of it as a present tense threat...”Satan...IS transformed..”.
He’s tireless, even using our ‘fearless leader’ (cough) to quote Jesus concerning the sharing with others, yet still endorsing the killing of the unborn. Satan’s had thousands of years to trick man in every way imaginable. Thankfully his time is about up.
We should “Desire all of the spiritual gifts”, but that also involves truly understanding them, for that is where much of the spiritual confusion comes from, an inadequate understanding of the nature of spiritual gifts as the New Testament defines them.Furthermore, we should “desire spiritual gifts”not so much as individual properties but for the edification of the Body.
I tend to think that they are active in this day and age but not nearly to the degree that many claim.
The Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is shallow. It pays too much attention to its own traditions and not enough to Scripture, too much to the Holy Spirit and not enough about Jesus, too much on the gifts and not enough on the fruit, too much about manifesting power and gifts and not enough manifesting Christ, too much on what they can get out of it in experience and not enough on how they can serve others and lead them to Christ.
by A. B. Simpson
Once it was the blessing, Now it is the Lord;
Once it was the feeling, Now it is His Word.
Once His gifts I wanted, Now the Giver own;
Once I sought for healing, Now Himself alone.
Once ‘twas painful trying, Now ‘tis perfect trust;
Once a half salvation, Now the uttermost.
Once ‘twas ceaseless holding, Now He holds me fast;
Once ‘twas constant drifting, Now my anchor’s cast.
Once ‘twas busy planning, Now ‘tis trustful prayer;
Once ‘twas anxious caring, Now He has the care.
Once ‘twas what I wanted, Now what Jesus says;
Once ‘twas constant asking, Now ‘tis ceaseless praise.
Once it was my working, His it hence shall be;
Once I tried to use Him, Now He uses me.
Once the power I wanted, Now the Mighty One;
Once for self I labored, Now for Him alone.
Once I hoped in Jesus, Now I know He’s mine;
Once my lamps were dying, Now they brightly shine.
Once for death I waited, Now His coming hail;
And my hopes are anchored, Safe within the vail.
There is no command in Scripture anywhere that I can think of where the gifts are to be asked for.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
What gifts each believer is to receive is the HOLY SPIRIT'S choice, not ours.
That is where I see the MAJOR problem in the Pentecostal movement, the huge emphasis on tongues, the least of the gifts, and its misapplication and use.
“People are too busy seeking the Spirit, the power, the healing, tongues, whatever manifestation du jour they hear about and not seeking Christ alone, the author and finisher of our faith.”
Yes, some folks are just like Simon Magus, except they don’t even have the courtesy of offering a bribe.
That link about ‘soaking anointing’ was disturbing.
That was one of my major problems with them as well. I suspect that tongues is emphasized because it is the easiest one to fake, and because they claim that it doesn’t have to be an actual Earthly language.
I do see lots of scripture in favor of spiritual gifts being still active, and not ceasing; however, I just don’t think they’re the real deal. I also suspect a great deal of gifts... are gifts like wisdom, ability to teach the Gospel, things of that nature. Things that aren’t flashy like, for example, calling fire down form heaven, but just as valid as the gifts of prophecy or any of the ones they covet.
The rapture may be today! :)
I don’t know your heart.
Your tone was more moderate than some.
However, your post was extremely lop-sided.
You’d be the best one to answer the question.
Hes tireless, even using our fearless leader (cough) to quote Jesus concerning the sharing with others, yet still endorsing the killing of the unborn. Satans had thousands of years to trick man in every way imaginable. Thankfully his time is about up.
Praise God for The Return Of The King.
Of all the gifts, if I had a choice, it would be discernment.
Above all else, I want to know what is of God and what is not.
It depends on the congregation.
The Lord’s PRESENCE in any demonstrable form
THE GREATEST ‘SHOW’ ON EARTH in a list of ways.
And for most individuals sick of phoney, shallow, milque toasty fare that passes for most of Christianity—HIS PRESENCE is a dramatically DIFFERENT experience easy to get excited about.
I don’t blame folks for getting excited and wanting to do any and everything they can to facilitate a ‘repeat performance.’
However, it is true that solid Biblical teaching needs to be thoroughly involved before, during and after any and everything we do in Christianity—including experiencing God’s Acts 2 maniffestations etc.
I now have a couple of the translations from the Aramaic on my Kindle. Interesting to see the comparisons.
I’m not KJV only but I’m thankful that’s what my memory is of.
Thanks Quix, I will consider. It is because I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the present day excercise of the gifts, that I offer ny critique. I am a blessed Pentecostal, and much of what I wrote about has been my journey.
As a mostly life-long Pentecostal . . . I certainly understand your concerns.
There is so much judgment involved in the Charismatic movement, all based on outward appearances instead of the inward working of God in one's life which does not draw attention to self.
The reasons we are given power are these, not for show or display.....
Ephesians 3:14-19 14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faiththat you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Colossians 1:9-14 9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.