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Pope says arrogance drives infertility field, tells couples to shun artificial procreation
Brandon Sun ^ | February 25, 2012

Posted on 02/26/2012 1:22:06 PM PST by NYer

In this picture made available by the Vatican newspaper Osservatore Romano, Pope Benedict XVI greets the faithful of the Pontifical Academy for Life during a private audience at the Vatican, Saturday, Feb. 25, 2012. (AP Photo/Osservatore Romano, Handout)

VATICAN CITY - Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday urged infertile couples to shun artificial procreation, decrying such methods as a form of arrogance.

Speaking at the end of a three-day Vatican conference on diagnosing and treating infertility, Benedict also reiterated church teaching that marriage is the only permissible place to conceive children. Matrimony "constitutes the only 'place' worthy of the call to existence of a new human being," he said.

The pope pressed the church ban against artificial procreation, saying infertile couples should refrain from any method to try to conceive other than sex between husband and wife.

"The human and Christian dignity of procreation, in fact, doesn't consist in a 'product,' but in its link to the conjugal act, an expression of the love of the spouses of their union, not only biological but also spiritual," Benedict said.

He told the science and fertility experts in his audience to resist "the fascination of the technology of artificial fertility. Benedict cautioned the experts against "easy income, or even worse, the arrogance of taking the place of the Creator," an attitude he indicated underlies the field of artificial procreation.

Sperm or egg donation and methods such as in vitro fertilization are banned by the church for its faithful.

The emphasis on science "and the logic of profit seem today to dominate the field of infertility and human procreation," the pope said.

But he added that the Church encourages medical research into infertility.


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Science
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To: trisham

Why are you asking a question I have already answered very clearly? And why are you pinging these Moderators, as if they should feel a need to investigate me? Haha! So I think women are spiritually equivalent to men, able to guide and learn as equals. And you don’t. That’s where we stand. And for the record, I’m embarrassed for you.


51 posted on 02/26/2012 6:22:52 PM PST by Flightdeck (If you hear me yell "Eject, Eject, Eject!" the last two will be echos...)
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To: NYer

Ah, okay, the CHURCH (sound the gong) is THE pillar and ground of the truth. Maybe Timothy didn’t count on people like Ferdinand II and Cardinal Law being policy maker in the church... As I stated in my last post to the other annoying dogmatist, “I think women are spiritually equivalent to men, able to guide and learn as equals. And you don’t. That’s where we stand. And for the record, I’m embarrassed for you.”


52 posted on 02/26/2012 6:26:29 PM PST by Flightdeck (If you hear me yell "Eject, Eject, Eject!" the last two will be echos...)
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To: NYer

I just wanted to say thank you for your series of beautiful and thoughtful posts.

The daughter of a good friend has just confirmed she is pregnant by IVF (her husband has some problems “south of the border,” shall we say). Like most, I was both pleased - known her from two days old and she will be a wonderful mother - and concerned.
I asked her what she is going to do with the spare embryos and she was refreshingly blunt. She said “There are no spares. Only two eggs were taken and fertilized, both were implanted successfully.” No culls, no waste of life, and she reduced her chances hugely by insisting on that.

I am pretty proud of her. She walked a fine line.

And I stand with you on filling your home with kids and laughter. Our two youngest (both girls) are adopted, after 4 of our own. We fostered for a few years as well - something I would encourage every family to consider. Fostering is harder - most of the children have serious problems - but is so worthwhile.


53 posted on 02/26/2012 7:30:11 PM PST by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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Comment #54 Removed by Moderator

To: Mr Rogers
What is the teaching on treatment for those with medical issues preventing pregnancy, such as laparoscopic surgery for endometriosis?

Such surgeries, which are intended to restore damaged or diseased organs to their proper function, are commendable. Note that the surgery is addressed directly to repair the malfunction organ; it is not an attempt to replace or bypass it.

Sadly, they are not always successful.

55 posted on 02/26/2012 7:43:06 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: abercrombie_guy_38

You do have a point and just because the pope states something, its for Catholics not everyone. Not all fertility clinics use hormones to cause a woman to produce multiple eggs for fertilization. There are many ways to bring about a baby...


56 posted on 02/26/2012 7:43:17 PM PST by goat granny
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To: EnglishCon

She didn’t “walk a fine line.” She closed her eyes and stepped over a bright shiny moral line with all the others who are Entitled. To. Have. Children. At any price.

The thousands and thousands of human embryos who were slaughtered to develop this ghoulish procedure — which RARELY works as you reported it did in this case — are on her.


57 posted on 02/26/2012 8:42:41 PM PST by Blue Ink
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To: se_ohio_young_conservative

IVF is the methods of animal husbandry applied to human life. Any cattleman could tell you about the problems associated with it. Any ordinary person back in 1968 could tell you about the moral dilemmas that would arise. “The lady or the tiger?”


58 posted on 02/26/2012 9:20:29 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: OldNavyVet

Since Streep won tonight, a more telling example occurs to me: Sophie’s choice.


59 posted on 02/26/2012 9:23:49 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: lsucat

One of the most wicked things feminists have done is to discredit adoption as the moral alternative to abortion. I am alive today because my mother, long ago, decided not to have me killed but to put me up for adoption.


60 posted on 02/26/2012 9:29:03 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: Tax-chick

One can depend on the press to show their ignorance of the English language. Our concern about Obama is not his pride but his willingness to arrogate to himself the legislative power that the Constitution has vested in Congress. He is a tyrant.


61 posted on 02/26/2012 9:33:28 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: Blue Ink

She is like the woman with a brutal husband who hires someone to shoot him to death. We put aside the injustice that has been done to her, and while we understand, we cannot ignore the horror she has let loose.


62 posted on 02/26/2012 9:37:01 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: Tax-chick
getting close to a mother of ten (and her adorable pink bundle) might somehow rub off!

Given that she only has two kids, maybe she hasn't yet figured out how children are made?! ;-)

63 posted on 02/26/2012 10:04:28 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: Flightdeck
defend church doctrine that was invented by corrupt men in an organization that takes second place to few in the history of organized corruption.

Four questions then:

1) If it's as corrupt as you claim, why stay?

2) When did you receive Anointing of the Sick?

3) Why is there no record of a single woman being ordained a Priest in Scripture?

4) Explain specifically what you disagree with in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis?

64 posted on 02/26/2012 10:13:31 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: trailhkr1
From Wikipedia.:

Whackypedia?! You've got the world's largest library at your fingertips and you select Whackypedia as your source.

65 posted on 02/26/2012 10:16:41 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Salvation

im pro-life.. I have been pro-life since I learned what abortion was..this is a HUGE stretch

this is NOT biblically wrong or unethical


66 posted on 02/26/2012 10:17:15 PM PST by se_ohio_young_conservative
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To: VictoryGal
I often wonder if part of the reason some couples are unable to naturally bear their own children is because God wants them to parent an orphaned child. There are many reasons why children end up parent-less and that happened even thousands of years ago - much worse, in fact. The Christians were the ones who started some of the first orphanages taking in babies and children abandoned or discarded. In Rome, unwanted newborns were thrown into garbage heaps to die of exposure, starvation, wild animals, etc. It was horrific and, sadly, some of it still happens in the world. God holds all life as sacred and I do not doubt for a minute that he wants all children to be raised in Godly, two-parent homes.

There are also many older children that are bypassed for adoption because many couples only want babies today. But these children have the same needs for loving homes and could be a blessing to families. Perhaps this may be God's will for you and your husband?

67 posted on 02/26/2012 10:47:02 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Tax-chick

I agree, that was a dumb thing for her to say! Your children are very blessed to have you as their mother.


68 posted on 02/26/2012 10:50:47 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Someday, I’m going to flip out and reply, “Why don’t you have more children? Erectile dysfunction? That must be a real trial for you ...”


69 posted on 02/27/2012 4:29:50 AM PST by Tax-chick (I used to be difficult, but after watching 46 episodes of "Lie to Me," I'm impossible!)
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To: RobbyS
Our concern about Obama is not his pride but his willingness to arrogate to himself the legislative power that the Constitution has vested in Congress.

Excellent example! That would get you an A++ and a bouquet of flowers on the "Word of the Day" thread.

70 posted on 02/27/2012 4:33:30 AM PST by Tax-chick (I used to be difficult, but after watching 46 episodes of "Lie to Me," I'm impossible!)
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To: ELS; boatbums; Mrs. Don-o

The cultural consensus that children are very frightening, so *of course* we all want to limit their numbers, is overwhelming. People don’t even realize they’re being rude, because they’re just expressing what “everyone” knows.

The Pope, I believe, has hit on a key point: “arrogating” the power and authority to control life. It’s more socially acceptable to have a large multiple birth through IVF or ovulation stimulation that it is to have a large number of children, over many years, through the natural processes of marriage. The former shows that you’ve taken control, and the latter is frightening because you haven’t planned and deliberately caused it.


71 posted on 02/27/2012 4:42:09 AM PST by Tax-chick (I used to be difficult, but after watching 46 episodes of "Lie to Me," I'm impossible!)
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To: Tax-chick

oh well....lucky for you, you didn’t have to stand next to an arrogant jerk, because that might have rubbed off somehow. ;)


72 posted on 02/27/2012 4:53:41 AM PST by Scotswife
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To: Scotswife

LOL - good point.


73 posted on 02/27/2012 5:01:16 AM PST by Tax-chick (I used to be difficult, but after watching 46 episodes of "Lie to Me," I'm impossible!)
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To: Flightdeck; trisham
I think women are spiritually equivalent to men, able to guide and learn as equals.

If Christ chose only men despite his willingness to break many social norms where women are concerned, then it is because he wished to institute the ministerial role for men alone. Ordination does not simply give a man permission to perform the functions of a priest; it imparts to him an indelible (permanent) spiritual character that makes him a priest, and since Christ and His Apostles chose only men to be priests, only men can validly become priests.

The New Testament priesthood is the priesthood of Christ Himself. All men who, through the Sacrament of Holy Orders, have become priests (or bishops) participate in Christ's priesthood. And they participate in it in a very special way: They act in persona Christi Capitis, in the person of Christ, the Head of His Body, the Church. Christ was a man.

The movement for women's ordination in the Catholic Church, therefore, will never get anywhere. Other Christian denominations, to justify ordaining women, have had to change their understanding of the nature of the priesthood from one which conveys an indelible spiritual character on the man who is ordained to one in which the priesthood is treated as a mere function. But to abandon the 2,000-year-old understanding of the nature of the priesthood would be a doctrinal change. The Catholic Church could not do so and remain the Catholic Church.

74 posted on 02/27/2012 5:09:01 AM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer
Is the pope concerned about this, I wonder?

For Women Under 30, Most Births Occur Outside Marriage

75 posted on 02/27/2012 5:29:01 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: se_ohio_young_conservative
this is NOT biblically wrong or unethical

In your opinion.

76 posted on 02/27/2012 5:30:11 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: DaveMSmith

No, of course not. The Pope (and the Catholic Church, and the Christian faith in general) don’t give a flying freep about fornication or the harm to children of unmarried parenthood. Why, St. Paul didn’t say a word about sexual immorality ... it was all, “Whatever feels good to you ... as long as you’re not judgmental ...”

(/s)


77 posted on 02/27/2012 5:46:15 AM PST by Tax-chick (I used to be difficult, but after watching 46 episodes of "Lie to Me," I'm impossible!)
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To: redgolum; Campion
Dear redgolum,

“If you know someone who has or you have experienced infertility, comments like yours will wound them.”

Maybe. But it didn't wound me.

Presented with the choice of having no children or going the IVF-and-other-technology-route, we chose no children. Or so we thought.

Realizing we wouldn't need all the money to raise children, we were all set to buy his-and-hers Mercedes-Benz roadsters when something unexpected happened...

... I still don't have the roadster, but I have - not one, but two - wonderful and excellent sons. I figure college tuition for both of them would have paid for two roadsters for each of us, my wife and me.

Having been there, I'm very sympathetic toward couples experiencing infertility. But the truth is the truth. There was nothing wounding about Campion's remark.


sitetest

78 posted on 02/27/2012 6:26:51 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Tax-chick; ELS; boatbums; don-o
I find meaningful --- and moreso as the years go on --- Pope Paul VI's repeated statement, "We are the ministers of the Design of Life, not its masters."

Five hundred years from now ---- if the human race has not erased itself line by line and gene by gene, has not replaced itself with some race of Orcs, half-chimp and half-machine --- people will way that the turning point in our preservation as a species was the publication of Humanae Vitae in 1968.

Paul VI was thought a weak, Hamlet-like, vacillating pope. But he was a prophet: for those who have ears to hear.

79 posted on 02/27/2012 6:53:18 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("The Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." - 1 Tim 3:15)
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To: sitetest; Campion

Look up thread. There are many people hurt by it, and have attacked.

I was set to get a nice cabin, when we got pregnant. Wouldn’t trade my daughter for the world. But the pain many experience is very sharp.

We never considered IVF, because we didn’t want to kill the “extra” babies.


80 posted on 02/27/2012 7:17:27 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: redgolum; Campion
Dear redgolum,

I don't know, I looked up-thread and didn't see too many attackers. There is one poster claiming to be Catholic who, nonetheless, seems to consider the Magisterium lacking in any authority to teach authoritatively about much of anything. There are a couple of folks who appear to be indignant about the whole topic, but no one appears to be particularly “wounded” by Campion’s words.

And even if anyone were, objectively, there is little to criticize in his post. What he wrote was consonant with the truth, with objective reality, and it wasn't said in a hurtful way.


sitetest

81 posted on 02/27/2012 8:46:56 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
But he was a prophet: for those who have ears to hear.Absolutely. Everything he wrote has turned out to be 100% correct ... or even more than that. All one's old dystopian predictions have fallen short of today's reality.
82 posted on 02/27/2012 10:10:28 AM PST by Tax-chick (I used to be difficult, but after watching 46 episodes of "Lie to Me," I'm impossible!)
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To: Flightdeck; vladimir998

I’m not a Roman Catholic, rather a bible-believing evangelical.

Here’s the Apostle Paul on female ministers/priests:

“Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, rthen Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but sthe woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (I Timothy 2:11-14)

“As in yall the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but ashould be in submission, as bthe Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” (1 Corinthians 14:33-35)

Here are the qualifications for pastors:

“if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife,3 and his children are believers4 and not open to the charge of rdebauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer,5 sas God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not tbe arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent uor greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, vand disciplined. 9 He must whold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in xsound6 doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” (Titus 1:6-9) (Notice the “husband” and “he” pronouns. Clearly Paul assumed only men would be Church overseers. 1 Timothy 3:1–13 also has the same language....for elders and deacons—very clearly talking about men, not women)

The 12 Apostles in the Gospels, all men. The 1st Council of Jerusalem in AD 50 found in Acts 15....of the top leaders of the Church, all men.

2000 years of Christians—looking at scripture, have also said, it is wrong to make women pastors/priests/ministers over men.

If the bible really is God’s Word, than all Christians must obey it.

Now, given all those specific instructions in holy scripture—from the New Testament (not the Old Testament), why isn’t the burden of proof on YOU to tell us why women should be made pastors/priests/ministers?

Do you know better than Saint Paul, the Apostles, the New Testament Church, and all the generations of Christians since?


83 posted on 02/27/2012 4:45:31 PM PST by AnalogReigns (because REALITY is never digital...)
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To: Flightdeck
The church could never have spread its message (or become profitable) without abiding by social norms including centuries of discrimination of women. For the church to fail to acknowledge this sin and change their doctrine, they simply prove their own message that we are all primitive and imperfect.

Actually, the Catholic Church is one entity that has treated women more equally than most others throughout the centuries. The Church doesn't ordain women because Jesus didn't choose them to be his apostles. The Church teaches that even though men and women are equal in the sight of God, they each have different gifts and strengths.

There are women who have served in positions of power and authority within the Church, most notably Abbesses of organizations of women religious, that certainly didn't conform to the 'social norms' of the day.

I don't understand this whole animus some women have for the Church, feeling they're slighted somehow; I've never, in all my almost 59 years EVER felt that in any Parish in which I've been a member.

84 posted on 02/27/2012 6:51:44 PM PST by SuziQ
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Comment #85 Removed by Moderator

To: SuziQ

Read the quotes from Timothy and Corinthians in Post 83. Obviously the church itself has wholeheartedly rejected these portions of its own scripture. Women are not required to keep their mouths shut in church; they often read as lectors. Anything else would be absurd. They need to get around to rejecting the other absurdities as well.


86 posted on 02/29/2012 7:40:00 AM PST by Flightdeck (If you hear me yell "Eject, Eject, Eject!" the last two will be echos...)
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To: RobbyS

And God bless your mother for that, as well as all the mothers out there who choose life for their children.


87 posted on 03/02/2012 6:46:03 AM PST by lsucat
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