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Posted on 02/28/2012 10:31:29 PM PST by Teófilo
Now that's a new spin on it...We can expect to see you then bowing down before each other and praying to each other to venerate Christ in each other...
Perhaps you then can ask each other to perform miracles for you as you do with the wood, paint and concrete graven images...
I understand that reasoning, and how the Orthodox believe that they are guiltless in engaging in these practices. However, you can rationalize anything that you want to, if you are intent on finding a way to justify it. I’d rather be on the safe side, and take God at His word, rather than hope that the rationalizations of men will turn out to hold water with Him.
“So what you’re really asking is that we stop bowing before Christ. We respectfully decline.”
No, I really just asking why we aught not to obey the letter of the commandment, instead of trying to find a way to justify an apparent violation of it. Apparent, meaning it has every appearance of a violation to an outside observer. Perhaps your arguments are correct, and the violation is not real and only apparent. I’m not at the point of accepting that myself, but I’m willing to concede it’s a possibility. I believe, though, in a matter of such grave consequence, we aught to have more than a simple possibility before we throw caution to the wind.
There are quite a few other issues I have with this topic, but that’s the big one. Nobody can demonstrate with any true certainty, in this world, that God won’t reckon these acts to be grossly sinful, while we can demonstrate with certainty that abstaining from these acts would not be sinful at all. Tis better to err on the side of caution.
Yes, there’s a hint of that, but at least with Christians, we know there was a time of unity, and so there is at least a possibility of unity again in the future. I can’t say the same with political divisions.
I think it’s logical, on issues like this, to hearken back to that time before the division arose, and then try to trace the origin of the division. The first Christians, who were united, did not use images. Later, some began using images, while others did not. There were swings back and forth with Popes and Councils saying that images were bad, or images were acceptable, and then they settled on the current “compromise”, where they allowed the images, while admitting that at least certain uses of them were still sinful.
So, by my reckoning, the controversy didn’t arise from disputing the use of images, but rather began with the first acceptance of images. Before they were accepted, there was no controversy, and therefore, no division on this issue. It stands to reason, then, that we can’t eliminate the division without re-addressing the acceptance of images which contributed to it.
Only in hindsight. The letters of Paul deal with a lot of divisions, as does the book of Acts. From there through the Gnostics, Arians, Iconoclastics, Orthodox, Protestants, etc. the history of the church has been to a considerable extent the history its divisions.
In fact, I would suggest that the only periods in which the Church has not been divided has been in periods when it conspired with the State to crush divisions by force. Which I don't consider a particularly Christian way to handle anything.
Well, I was thinking of just the division on this issue, which is a pretty big one, but I see your point. Of course, the other side would probably look at the same history and say that the “real” church never changed, they just had a never-ending series of heretics splitting off from them. If you take that perspective, then I guess you never have to worry much about Christian unity at all. Anytime there is an argument, you can just arbitrarily make a line, then say everyone on the other side of it is suddenly not a Christian anymore. Problem solved!
Exactly. To a very considerable extent, that is exactly what happened. The winners decided what doctrine was orthodox and what was heretical.
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Liturgical Vestments (and prayers the priest says while vesting for Mass)
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The Sacrifice of the Mass: Liturgical Vestments
Of Miters and Men (brief look at symbolism of bishop's vestments) [Ecumenical]
Purification of Sacred Vessels in U.S. (and more on the Purification of our Lord)
Why We Need Sacred Art
Being Catholic: Sacred Things, [Holy] Water
Being Catholic: Sacred Things, [New] Fire, Paschal Candle
Being Catholic: Sacred Things, Holy Oils
Being Catholic: Sacred Things, Crucifixes and Crosses
Being Catholic: Sacred Things, Sacred Images: Statues and Other Icons
Being Catholic: Sacred Things, Incense
Being Catholic: Sacred Things, Palm Branches
Being Catholic: Sacred Things, Ashes
Being Catholic: Sacred Things, Relics and the Incorruptibles
Baltimore Catechism: On the Sacramentals (Catholic Caucus)
Thanks for affirming that not everyone has "put on Christ."
We have complete faith that God will judge us based upon what is in our hearts and not on the misjudgements of others.
...while we can demonstrate with certainty that abstaining from these acts would not be sinful at all.
Abstaining from humility might not be sinful in and of itself, but how do you think He will respond to you having judged the faith of His brothers?
“We have complete faith that God will judge us based upon what is in our hearts and not on the misjudgements of others.”
Christian liberty is great, but it doesn’t give absolute freedom. There are certain acts which are evil, no matter what is in a person’s heart when they commit them. Now, I’m not the one who determines what those acts are, but certainly they do exist. If all that matters is what is in your heart, then why will many people who believed that they served God be told, when the time comes, that He never knew them?
“Abstaining from humility might not be sinful in and of itself, but how do you think He will respond to you having judged the faith of His brothers?”
Where have I “judged the faith” of others? Where have I said so-and-so is going to hell, or they have no faith, or some statement like that? I’m making a theological argument, exhorting others to, what I believe, is a more sound worship of God. Or is what is in my heart not important after all?
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
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Exodus 25 is filled with instructions regarding the construction of icons for the Temple. These instructions appeared after the ten commandments were presented, and essential in telling the story of Jesus, Mary and the disciples for hundreds of years to a largely illiterate audience that pre-dated the printing press.
What does Exodus 25 mean to you?
Explain the instructions contained in Exodus 25?
Jesus repeated and strengthened all prohibitions of the Ten commandments. Except the one about graven images.
Leave your worries about “bowing down to graven images” to the Jews and become Christian, and read the Holy Gospels every now and then.
Here's my theological argument: we Catholics and Orthodox worship God how He told us to worship Him, in the Holy sacrifice of the Mass, where His body is offered to the Father. You are dumbfounded by bowing down to statues and icons because you, being Protestant, don't know how to worship. You think that your congregations do worship. They don't. They read the Bible together, listen to their semi-educated pastor about what his thoughts are, and understand on the average zilch. Then they turn around and lecture others.
Leave your sect and come to Jesus.
“become Christian, and read the Holy Gospels every now and then”
Well, I can see you don’t care to have a civil discussion.
“You are dumbfounded by bowing down to statues and icons because you, being Protestant, don’t know how to worship.”
I’m not dumbfounded, I just object to it. God objected to it too, so I think I’m in good company, at least in that regard.
That’s funny, I missed the parts in scripture—Old Testament AND New Testament, where the Prophets, the Apostles, or Jesus Himself recommended pondering images.
It’s too bad they missed that. Great that later, wiser, more godly, mature Christians figured it out though, eh?
As each of your pictures show, the images on the ark were BOWING....to God, unseen above.
Unlike icons or other images used by Rome or the Eastern they were NOT facing the worshipers, as if they were hearing prayer and adoration.
Veneration of images themselves is NEVER called for, or even allowed, in either the Old Testament or the New Testament.
When Church bodies with their traditions think they know better than the collected wisdom of all the Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles and Jesus Himself in the Bible....there is a serious problem...
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