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Tornadoes' Paths not Random, John Piper Says [Meteorology Caucus]
Associated Baptist Press ^ | 3/6/12 | Bob Allen

Posted on 03/07/2012 10:24:56 AM PST by marshmallow

MINNEAPOLIS (ABP) – An author and preacher popular in Calvinist circles says it is no accident that recent killer tornadoes followed paths that ravaged some communities while others were spared.

“Why would God reach down his hand and drag his fierce fingers across rural America killing at least 38 people with 90 tornadoes in 12 states, and leaving some small towns with scarcely a building standing, including churches?” John Piper of Desiring God ministries wrote in a blog March 5.

Piper, pastor for preaching at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, said it is wrong to ascribe power capable of causing an estimated $2 billion worth of property damage to Mother Nature or the devil.

“God alone has the last say in where and how the wind blows,” Piper said. “If a tornado twists at 175 miles an hour and stays on the ground like a massive lawnmower for 50 miles, God gave the command.”

Piper said he doesn’t know why if God has a quarrel with America that he wouldn’t show his displeasure in Washington or Hollywood instead of places like Henryville, Ind., but that “every deadly wind in any town is a divine warning to every town.”

(Excerpt) Read more at abpnews.com ...


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: baptists; christianity; theology
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God hates your trailer park.
1 posted on 03/07/2012 10:25:01 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
Piper said he doesn’t know why if God has a quarrel with America that he wouldn’t show his displeasure in Washington or Hollywood instead of places like Henryville, Ind., but that “every deadly wind in any town is a divine warning to every town.”

We have always had tornadoes even in the puritan gay 90's and the 1950's. Guys like this make Christians look like idiots.

2 posted on 03/07/2012 10:27:45 AM PST by trailhkr1
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To: marshmallow
“God alone has the last say in where and how the wind blows,” Piper said. “If a tornado twists at 175 miles an hour and stays on the ground like a massive lawnmower for 50 miles, God gave the command.”

Typical of a theological determinist.
3 posted on 03/07/2012 10:31:17 AM PST by aruanan
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To: trailhkr1

Most Calvinists are dour folks anyway.


4 posted on 03/07/2012 10:32:27 AM PST by nuke rocketeer (File CONGRESS.SYS corrupted: Re-boot Washington D.C (Y/N)?)
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To: marshmallow

I know that are not random because I know if one is coming in from the southwest and tracking toward my direction, the chances have been greater that they hit close.

Not so much if they come from another direction.

I don’t know what that has to do what what this guy is saying.


5 posted on 03/07/2012 10:32:34 AM PST by dforest
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To: marshmallow
Piper said he doesn’t know why if God has a quarrel with America that he wouldn’t show his displeasure in Washington or Hollywood instead of places like Henryville, Ind., but that “every deadly wind in any town is a divine warning to every town.”

Hmmm. 1925. Washington was much smaller. Hollywood wasn't a liberal-infested hellhole. And this happened:

Tri-State Tornado.

F5 on the ground for 219 miles.

These tinhorns should read up on their history before trying to claim that a medium-sized (historically) tornado outbreak like last Friday's is a sign of anything more than bad luck weather.

6 posted on 03/07/2012 10:34:01 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: marshmallow

The world’s just chock full of nuts and crackpots, isn’t it?


7 posted on 03/07/2012 10:34:59 AM PST by pgkdan (Rick Santorum 2012. Conservative's last, best chance!)
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To: marshmallow
“God alone has the last say in where and how the wind blows,” Piper said. “If a tornado twists at 175 miles an hour and stays on the ground like a massive lawnmower for 50 miles, God gave the command.”

And if he's going to be a theological determinist in the Calvinist tradition, what he says must also be true about each hemorrhoid that pops out and the exact number and depth of thrusts of the knife wielded by a serial killer or the steak knife of someone sitting in Ruth's Chris.
8 posted on 03/07/2012 10:34:59 AM PST by aruanan
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To: marshmallow
If a tornado twists at 175 miles an hour and stays on the ground like a massive lawnmower for 50 miles, God gave the command.

So when innocent people die, we're to conclude that God ordered their death? This idiot confuses "God is in control" with "God commands Mother Nature to kill innocent people because he's angry."

9 posted on 03/07/2012 10:35:17 AM PST by BuckeyeTexan (Man is not free unless government is limited. ~Ronald Reagan)
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To: marshmallow
Years ago seismologists were puzzled by randon 'squiggles' on their earthquake charts.
They were sure suprised when they learned that those 'squiggles' were tornadoes.
10 posted on 03/07/2012 10:35:31 AM PST by blam
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To: trailhkr1

More fodder for the barely human debris that is Mike Malloy.


11 posted on 03/07/2012 10:36:04 AM PST by cld51860 (Oderint dum metuant)
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To: aruanan

I guess Job was a determinist too:

18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will depart.[c]
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised.”

22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing


12 posted on 03/07/2012 10:36:14 AM PST by Augustinian monk
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To: marshmallow

God doesn’t punish people by generating natural disasters. Jesus addressed this issue in Luke 13:4, when discussing the collapse of a tower in Shilokha (Siloam), a suburb of Jerusalem, in which 18 people were killed:

4“Or those eighteen upon whom the tower of Shilokha fell and killed them; do you think that they were sinners more so than all the children of men who dwell in Jerusalem?” 5“No, but I say to you, unless you repent, all of you shall be destroyed like they were.”


13 posted on 03/07/2012 10:37:47 AM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: marshmallow

14 posted on 03/07/2012 10:38:22 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: marshmallow

It seems this paragraph clarifies his meaning:

“We are not God’s counselors, nor can we fathom all his judgments,” he said. “That was the lesson of Job. Let us beware, therefore, of reading the hand of providence with too much certainty or specificity. God is always doing a thousand things when he does anything. And we see but a fraction.”

I always think of that verse in Matthew 5 when it comes to natural disasters striking some and sparing others:

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.


15 posted on 03/07/2012 10:39:01 AM PST by dawn53
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To: marshmallow

Piper is exactly right. “Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?” Amos 3:6


16 posted on 03/07/2012 10:39:28 AM PST by circlecity
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To: MarkBsnr

Most of them are down to a tulip with the one petal of eternal security.


17 posted on 03/07/2012 10:40:28 AM PST by aruanan
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To: marshmallow
Basically, he's saying that God is sovereign over everything. He's in control.

That is a very common christian teaching.

18 posted on 03/07/2012 10:42:21 AM PST by what's up
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To: marshmallow

No, an event is good or bad based on whether it draws us closer to God or farther apart. Plus, an event which happens to us isn’t necessarily designed with us as the end-product. It could be happening to us in order to minister to someone else.

I can’t, because I’m not omniscient, tell you the particulars concerning the why of a thing. I just know that God is sovereign and his overarching “banner” is love. To me that is a whole lot more comforting than thinking we are either at the mercy of an arbitrary dice-thrower, or that some things are able to thwart God’s will.


19 posted on 03/07/2012 10:42:38 AM PST by Jemian
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To: nuke rocketeer

I have been called many things, but I don’t believe I’ve ever been labeled as “dour,” ... until today.


20 posted on 03/07/2012 10:44:57 AM PST by Jemian
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To: circlecity
And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Matthew 13: 1-5

This passage makes it clear that God may, if he so chooses, visit disaster upon us but that not every disaster is God's explicit doing.

21 posted on 03/07/2012 10:45:56 AM PST by marshmallow (.)
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To: marshmallow
God created nature and nature does as nature should.

God can bring good things out of the bad things that happen. For example:

Bad - Obama elected
Good - Millions awaken from their slumber as to their freedoms and are willing to fight, well only so far as I don't have to leave the house. (Tea Party members excluded)

Bad - Andrew Breitbart dies unexpectedly.
Good - Millions are again awaken, but this time are willing to stand up for God, Family and Country and speak the truth without fear as Andrew did.

God's ways are not our ways, but I have to believe God is in charge of everything!

B3!
22 posted on 03/07/2012 11:03:56 AM PST by JPII Be Not Afraid
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To: marshmallow

Marshmallow, would you please write a short post on “Why I rejoice in being Roman Catholic!” Something positive, inspiring, and uplifting! It would make your posts a delight to read!


23 posted on 03/07/2012 11:08:16 AM PST by WestwardHo
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To: marshmallow
"This passage makes it clear that God may, if he so chooses, visit disaster upon us but that not every disaster is God's explicit doing."

I don't see that passage as making your coclusion clear at all. All this passage says is that when God visits disaster on someone it doesn't mean it was because they were worse sinners than those who weren't victims of such a disaster. Judgment will come to all. As Amos tell us, all disasters are the work of God, we just have no business trying to assume we know God's reasons or motives for each act he does.

24 posted on 03/07/2012 11:10:35 AM PST by circlecity
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To: marshmallow

My old pastor likes Piper. I stopped liking my old church about the same time my old pastor started quoting Piper and friends.

It is horrible doctrine. It makes you feel like bad things happen to people because they have done something wrong (which can be the case, but not necessarily).


25 posted on 03/07/2012 11:12:16 AM PST by luckystarmom
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To: aruanan
Most of them are down to a tulip with the one petal of eternal security.

If you blab it and grab it, maybe you can overcome a deep insecurity and inferiority complex. It's all about them. "God" is simply a magical incantation.

Nobody is predestined to either follow or reject the Two Commandments of Christ.

26 posted on 03/07/2012 11:15:18 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: marshmallow

nutcase.


27 posted on 03/07/2012 11:17:18 AM PST by Matchett-PI ("Andrew loved the battle and he knew the stakes." ~ Mark Levin 3/2/12)
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To: marshmallow

28 posted on 03/07/2012 11:18:19 AM PST by bigbob
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To: MarkBsnr

Exactly


29 posted on 03/07/2012 11:18:56 AM PST by Matchett-PI ("Andrew loved the battle and he knew the stakes." ~ Mark Levin 3/2/12)
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To: circlecity

You are correct. Also, we are reformed because God caused it to be so. I’m thankful for it.


30 posted on 03/07/2012 11:21:45 AM PST by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: circlecity
As Amos tell us, all disasters are the work of God,.....

Is evil "the work of God"?

31 posted on 03/07/2012 11:21:49 AM PST by marshmallow (.)
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To: marshmallow

I’m always surprised to see Christians taking the lord’s name in vain.

When you say “God is punishing you because I am right and you are wrong.”, that’s your own vanity speaking, not God.

You’re just using God’s name as a cudgel.

That’s a sin bubba.


32 posted on 03/07/2012 11:25:52 AM PST by fruser1
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To: what's up
Basically, he's saying that God is sovereign over everything. He's in control.

Sovereignty of God is not synonymous with God instigating and orchestrating every physical, chemical and biological event. God gave us the laws of physics which govern creation, including weather patterns. This means there is no need for God to trace the path of a tornado any more than He must trace the path of the #15 bus which takes people home from work. Is he any less "sovereign" for this?

God sometimes intervenes and suspends these laws of physics. We call these events "miracles".

33 posted on 03/07/2012 11:30:02 AM PST by marshmallow (.)
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To: marshmallow

When man sinned the wheels were set in motion, God could no longer walk with man in the cool of the garden, and in many ways, was left on his own in a world without the overriding protection of God. We chose to go it alone, and so far, it ain’t been working out well, that’s all there is to it folks. We sinned, the world became a hazard instead of a blessing.


34 posted on 03/07/2012 11:32:36 AM PST by Scythian
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To: marshmallow
"Is evil "the work of God"?"

Evil isn't a thing - it's the absence of good. And it is all our (human's) fault and and has been since the first transgression of the fall.

35 posted on 03/07/2012 11:34:48 AM PST by circlecity
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To: Jemian; nuke rocketeer

To be fair, he said most. In which Calvinist church were you raised? It does make a difference.


36 posted on 03/07/2012 11:36:08 AM PST by SeaHawkFan
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To: marshmallow
“We are not God’s counselors, nor can we fathom all his judgments,” he said. “That was the lesson of Job. Let us beware, therefore, of reading the hand of providence with too much certainty or specificity. God is always doing a thousand things when he does anything. And we see but a fraction.”

Piper Himself is saying one cannot read the hand of Providence.

He's merely stating God's judging qualities and His authority over everything. I don't have a problem with a Preacher reminding people of that.

You're reading too much into this.

37 posted on 03/07/2012 11:37:44 AM PST by what's up
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To: marshmallow

The Arminians have Pat Robertson and the Calvinists have the likes of John Piper.

Piper is a hyper-Calvinists, but there are worse.


38 posted on 03/07/2012 11:40:17 AM PST by SeaHawkFan
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To: SeaHawkFan

I wasn’t raised in a calvinist church. Upon studying the Bible, I chose to be a calvinist (/heavy irony). I’m now a member of the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America, one of the conservative presbyterian churches).


39 posted on 03/07/2012 11:43:41 AM PST by Jemian
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To: SeaHawkFan

Poor Robertson. He can’t help being an Arminian. </more irony>


40 posted on 03/07/2012 11:45:28 AM PST by Jemian
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To: Jemian

Hey, you’re DOUR! You may not make jokes.


41 posted on 03/07/2012 11:46:14 AM PST by Jemian
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To: Jemian

Had you been raised in a hyper-Calvinist church; you would have understood the dour comment and likely agreed.

I know a now elderly guy who grew up in the Christian Reformed Church where the Gospel was never preached. He and his parents were faithful members and attenders.

His expression regarding the CRC was, “I was raised in the CRC, but praise God, I got saved.”


42 posted on 03/07/2012 11:50:49 AM PST by SeaHawkFan
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To: circlecity
Evil isn't a thing - it's the absence of good. And it is all our (human's) fault and and has been since the first transgression of the fall.

I'm just trying to understand what you mean by the word "disaster". You said that all disasters are "the work of God".

If the proximate cause of the loss of the life of a child is a murderer and not a tornado, is that "a disaster"?

43 posted on 03/07/2012 11:51:02 AM PST by marshmallow (.)
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To: circlecity
As Amos tell us, all disasters are the work of God

You are in error........

44 posted on 03/07/2012 11:54:15 AM PST by Osage Orange (Why do we eat Soylindra Green?)
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To: SeaHawkFan

I’ve heard the dour appelation all my life. I do understand it.

David Brainerd is my first cousin, seven times removed. That makes Jonathan Edwards an in-law.


45 posted on 03/07/2012 11:58:39 AM PST by Jemian
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To: SeaHawkFan

Explanation: while I’ve heard the term, no one has ever applied it specifically to me.


46 posted on 03/07/2012 12:00:00 PM PST by Jemian
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To: Jemian

I wasn’t applying the term ‘hyper-Calvinist’ to you.

I was referring to hyper-Calvinist churches. I thought I was very clear. If I was going to apply that term to you, it would have been very clear.


47 posted on 03/07/2012 12:08:45 PM PST by SeaHawkFan
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To: aruanan
Typical of a theological determinist.

The alternative is the handwringing God.

48 posted on 03/07/2012 12:50:28 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: aruanan
ROFL! Thats Funny!

But I think he is talking about chastisement for the nation which our saints declare can happen.

49 posted on 03/07/2012 12:53:25 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: SeaHawkFan

I didn’t think that you had, at any rate, I don’t feel any ill-will with what has been said.


50 posted on 03/07/2012 12:54:17 PM PST by Jemian
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