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To My "Bible Only" Christian Brothers and Sisters, From A Catholic Convert [a humble vanity]

Posted on 03/11/2012 4:27:55 PM PDT by Heart-Rest

Like you, I too used to be a "Bible Only" Christian, who would have said, "I only accept it and believe it if it's in the Bible!"    With great regret and contrition, I also have to admit that I too was once very anti-Catholic, like many of you are right now, (and, coincidentally, like the unceasingly prevaricating President B.O. is, the lying foulmouth pervert Bill Maher is, the New York Times is, Muslims are, Communists are, atheists are, the main-stream-media in general is, anti-Catholic phony Catholics like Pelosi/Sebelius/Biden/Kerry/Kennedys/etc. are, democrats (in general) are, and many others ALSO are right now, unfortunately).    Then, somewhere along the way, I ran into some very difficult questions that I had to honestly confront in my search for the "Truth".    (Anything less than the full Truth is basically not worth much in this search for the Truth, the most important search we will ever do in this life.)

For some time, I explored a number of Christian denominations before I found the "fullness of Truth" and the Catholic Church which Jesus Himself built.    Eventually, I came to see that the Truth was a lot different than I had been perceiving it, and if I really wanted to be honest, I had to change to conform myself to that Truth, rather than trying to change that Truth to conform it to me and my own prior personal pet beliefs.

In a spirit of Christian love and sharing, I urge you too to begin ask yourself some of these same questions regarding some of the issues that are often discussed and argued here in this forum, and to honestly reexamine these beliefs for yourselves.    I want to just put these questions and issues to you honestly and bluntly, in the exact same way I always preferred to face them myself.    No matter what you currently believe, please just go wherever the Truth leads you.    It is, after all, our souls and eternity that is at stake, and finding the real Truth is far better than merely trying to win an argument.    Please remember that even one small, simple, and seemingly insignificant wrong turn can end up getting a person hopelessly lost.    It is my hope that, at the very least, we all will achieve a little better understanding of some of these issues we often dispute here and in other public forums.



Issue 1 - Bible only?   Where in the Bible does it specifically say that someone was instructed or inspired by God to write the "Gospel of Matthew"?     (Please give me the actual Bible book, chapter, and verse where it explicitly says that.)     And where in the Bible does it specifically say that the "Gospel of Matthew" was to be included in the Holy Scriptures, as part of the Bible?   I also ask you to apply those same exact two questions to the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, the Gospel of John, the Pauline Epistles, the other New Testament Epistles, etc.

If such specific statements cannot be found in the Bible (which truthfully, they cannot), then you have to be depending on sources outside the Bible to proclaim all those specific authors and writings (such as the Gospel of Matthew) to be inspired by God, and specifying that they should be included in the Sacred Scriptures, the Holy Bible.    So, obviously, you are not really Bible-only Christians.    You are relying on Tradition, whether you accept that the Tradition came from several Catholic Church Councils under the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit, or you somehow believe it was some other source that decided it, also from outside the Bible.    In either case, it would have to be based on some source not contained within the Bible itself -- some kind of non-Biblical "Tradition".    That is the simple, honest truth.

You also have to take the word of those same human beings in those Catholic Church Councils that such writings as the Gospel of James (the Protoevangelium of James), the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Barnabas, the Epistle of Barnabas, etc., should NOT be included in the Holy Scriptures (the Bible).

Another question you should ask yourself is, where in the Bible (Book, Chapter, and Verse please) does it tell you that you are to rely only on the Bible for your rule of faith?     (Once again, if you can't find that in the Bible -- which you can't -- you would have to be relying on some other non-Biblical source to tell you that that was what you were supposed to do.)    These are not new questions, of course, but they do have to be addressed directly by anyone who is seriously seeking the real and complete truth, and who do not want to be deceived by the great deceiver.

Another point to keep in mind concerning the Bible and the Church explicitly promised and built by Jesus Christ, is the fact that he established his Church long before the Bible was completed.    As can be seen in the Bible itself, the Church was already in existence (and being severely persecuted) before the New Testament was even completely written. Saul, who later wrote most of the "books" of the New Testament after changing his name to Paul (the Apostle), was persecuting the Church long before he even began to write his "Epistles".     (See Acts 7:58 through Acts 8:3, and Acts 9:1-5.)

This episode describing the beginning of the conversion of Saul / Paul from the Book of Acts, also is a very clear illustration of how Jesus Christ identifies his very Self with his Church, long before the Bible was complete. After Saul got knocked down by a light from heaven, Jesus said to him, "Saul, why are you persecuting me?" (He did not say, "Why are you persecuting my Church", but, rather, "Why are you persecuting ME?")   (See Acts 9:3-5.)    If his Church is that important to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who actually identifies Himself with his Church, please explain to me why his Church should not be important to all of us as well.    (And, again, please remember that Jesus was saying this to Saul long before the Bible was even completely written.)



Issue 2 - Rejecting the Catholic Church because of the Priestly scandals.     Over time, many posters here have expressed their unwillingness to even consider the Catholic Church because of the horrible Priestly scandals and coverups.    However, please think about this for just a minute.    It has been estimated that less than 2% of Catholic Priests were actually implicated in this kind of behavior, mostly back in the 1980's and before, and an even smaller number (and percentage) of Catholic Bishops were ever implicated in any kind of so called "coverup" of those kinds of Priestly misconduct.    There is absolutely no excuse for ANY sexual abuse, and perpetrators should be properly punished and removed from any possibility of doing such evil acts ever again, and all proper legal measures to deal with the perpetrators should be undertaken, respected, and obeyed.

However, the Catholic Church itself should not be rejected (as some obviously do here) because of what a small percentage of errant Priests and Bishops have done.    Please remember that Our Lord chose twelve special Apostles to travel around with him, and later to carry on His work.    While child abuse is horrible and completely wrong, one of those twelve Apostles did something even worse than what those Priests did -- he conspired and helped to effect the murder of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.    Using that same logic of those who reject the Catholic Church because of what a tiny minority of their Priests have done in the past, one would have to reject the whole group of thirteen (Our Lord and His twelve Apostles), because of what that minority of them (Judas Iscariot) did.    (He represented an even higher percentage -- over 7% -- of that group of thirteen, Our Lord and His twelve Apostles.)     To be truly and honestly consistent, one would have to reject Our Lord and all His Apostles because of what one person out of that group of thirteen did (7% of them), if one decides it is necessary to reject the Church because of what less than 2% of their Priests did.

Also, I've noticed that when some Catholic posters have pointed out from the available statistics that the numbers and percentages of abusers for other clergy in the Protestant world and in the Jewish world, as well as non-clergy (such as public-school teachers and such, and even the general public), are all just as bad or worse than the numbers and percentages for Catholic Priests, some anti-Catholic posters have attacked those Catholic posters, accusing them of trying to excuse or justify the horrible behavior exhibited by those few Catholic Priests.    That is patently erroneous and false.    The Catholic posters there are not trying to excuse or justify the horrible behavior exhibited by those few Priests.    Rather, they are just attempting to do the exact same thing Jesus did when he wrote in the sand, as they tell Protestants and the others that whichever "group/church" that is without sin should cast the first stone at the Catholic Church.   (That kind of deliberate mischaracterization and misrepresentation done by certain anti-Catholic posters regarding what Catholic posters are ostensibly "saying" and "meaning" and "intending" with their numerical comparison posts is clearly another obvious example of blatant falsehood.    Like all falsehoods, it comes from Satan - "the father of all lies".    Please don't do that.    Keep it honest.)    

We are all sinners -- Catholics, Protestants, and everyone else (even the people Jesus himself associated with in 1st Century Palestine, including the ones who needed the Great Physician the most).



Issue 3 - The Biblical Basis for the Catholic teaching concerning the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist.   Many Scriptural passages affirm the Catholic teaching about the Holy Eucharist, including   "John 6",     "1 Corinthians 11",    and many others. To get a good overview for the Scriptural basis for this teaching about the Eucharist of the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Church), I would recommend a good small book to start (a quick, fascinating, and delightful read),     "This Is My Body - An Evangelical Discovers the Real Presence", by Mark P. Shea.   (For a bit more in-depth analysis of this teaching, you might want to also read     "Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist: Unlocking the Secrets of the Last Supper", by Brant Pitre,    and    "With Us Today: On the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist", by John A. Hardon,    and     "The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth", by Scott Hahn.)

However, I also want to address one specific argument that I've seen pop up in FR discussions here a number of times, relating to how food enters one end of our bodies, and comes out the other end as waste, and that reference is then used to try to somehow denigrate the Catholic teaching about the Holy Eucharist.    For people who view the Blessed Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist (which, of course, was instituted by Jesus Christ Himself) in such a horribly disgusting and blasphemous and sacrilegious way, I'd like to earnestly implore them to please carefully consider the following thoughts.

When you sit down at your table to eat a regular meal (say dinner), I would guess that many of you first bow your heads and give thanks for the food which you are about to eat, and then ask God to bless that food.    After you do that, do you believe there is anything different about the food you just asked God to bless, or is it just exactly the same as it was before you asked God to bless it?    If you believe that your food which you just asked God to bless for you is somehow different from the way it was before you asked for that blessing from God, exactly how is it different?    Can you see the difference?    Can you taste the difference?    Can you feel the difference?    Can you smell the difference?    Can you hear the difference?    If your food is truly somehow different after God has blessed it, and you can't perceive it by any of your five senses, then it is obviously different in some way which is not detectable or observable by normal human perception.    (You would have to just take that on faith, not relying on your limited human perception.)

Then, you proceed to eat that food.    In that food, your body receives vitamins, minerals, protein, and various other nutrients, which will begin (and later continue) to provide or enhance your energy, healing and health maintenance, strength, growth, well-being, and, in general, serve to help enhance and extend your very life.    These helpful properties are extracted from your food long before it continues it journey down through the body and is excreted at the "other end".    (It is certainly hoped that no one here seriously considers that what they take in their mouth as food is the same exact thing that eventually comes out the other end of their bodies as waste matter.)

In an analogous way to our regular food and meals, Jesus stressed that his body and blood were to serve a special Sacramental function of putting his holy life into each of us, uniting with us in a most intimate way, and even when he said it the first time (see John 6), many people scoffed at him and did not believe him, and argued with him about it, then stopped listening to him, and finally just stalked off and left him.    Can you imagine what it would have been like to have been one of those disciples who turned and walked away from Jesus just because of that one specific teaching of his which is recounted in "John 6"?    The Bible says that teaching was too hard for them to take. nbsp;  For those former disciples who became deserters, it was just too hard to understand, too hard to believe, too hard to accept, too hard to follow, so they turned and just walked away from Jesus Christ.    Like many other people even today, those disciples just did not believe Jesus and his unusual teaching about this, and they made that very clear to everyone, then turned around and just walked away from Our Lord.    The Scriptures do not say what happened to them after that, but have you ever thought about whatever happened to those deserters after they walked away from Jesus and abandoned him like that, just because of that one new and unusual teaching Jesus made about eating his body and drinking his blood, which they just could not bring themselves to believe or accept with faith?

Eventually, Jesus was surrounded by other angry mobs who ganged up on him when they disagreed with his teachings (such as this one) and they mocked him, argued with him, scorned him, made fun of him, called him names, insulted him with their most devastating put-downs, sarcastic barbs, condescendingly snide remarks, etc., and generally derided him and his teachings.    In their own minds, they knew so much more than he did about everything.    It is easy today to picture those scoffers walking around patting themselves and each other on the back for some clever insult or put-down towards him, with their haughty, prideful, arrogant, sneering snoots held high up in the air.    Their aim was to win arguments and score debating points against him, not to humbly learn and embrace the holy truths he was teaching.    They eventually conspired to murder Jesus because of his unusual teachings, and (with other co-conspirators) carried that murder out on Calvary.

Later, that same kind of belligerent and obnoxious treatment was also aimed at the members of the Catholic Church built by Jesus, even to the point of inflicting physical martyrdom on many of them.    Sadly, that Catholic teaching which came straight from Jesus Christ, continues to this very day to be the target of that same kind of disbelief and verbal attack from many modern detractors as well.    Like many people back then who heard Jesus teach this truth, some people today also do not believe what Our Lord Jesus Christ so plainly said.    They seem to have no problem believing that it was possible for God to choose with his sovereign will and power to enter this world in the form of a simple human baby, but for some reason seem to think it is quite impossible for God to choose with his sovereign will and power to enter the world in the form of simple bread and wine, like Jesus so clearly and forcefully claimed.    While His Church is still often horrendously attacked for retaining that beautiful teaching which Jesus gave them directly, he also assured all his faithful followers (then and now) that they would actually be blessed when other people reviled them and said all manner of evil against them falsely for his sake, because he obviously knew others would do just that.

One last point on this issue - the Catholic Church, as guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit, teaches that the Real Presence in that Sacramental form remains inside a person only until the so-called "accidents" of the Blessed Sacrament (the term used to describe the ways the "Body and Blood of Christ" appear to our physical human senses) begin to change form inside our body (about 15 minutes for most people).  However, the "life" that Jesus Christ promised to those who partake of this sacred "food" worthily, remains within those worthy partakers, and they continue to receive the graces and blessings that God promised they would from a worthy reception of this Holy Sacrament.



Issue 4 - The Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary.   No, it does not.    It is a complete misperception and misunderstanding.    When you see people kneeling before a statue or picture of Mary (or some other saint) and praying, they are using the statue or picture to visualize Mary, as they ask her to pray together with them to God.    They do NOT see her as some kind of goddess or deity.    You have a total misconception about exactly what they are doing when you see them kneeling there.    No matter what it may look like to other people who might see you, if you kneel down and pray with a Bible open in front of you, are you worshiping the Bible?    If you kneel before a sick loved one's bed, are you worshiping that loved one?    Are you worshiping the bed?    If you kneel to pray in your church, are you worshiping the people or the pews in front of you?    Are you worshiping your Pastor in the front of your church?    If a person on a plane or bus saw that the person next to them was reading a porno book or magazine, then they saw someone else across the aisle reading a book that looked very similar, they might assume that other person was reading porno too, even if that other person was really reading a Bible.    It might appear the same, but that is a total misperception -- it is completely different.

You might think that people kneeling before a statue or icon of Mary are worshiping her or the statue, because it looks similar to the way people in other religions might kneel and pray to idols, but Catholics truly are not.    They use a statue or icon of Mary to focus their thoughts on her as they ask her to pray to God for them and with them.    The use of the statue or picture would be somewhat similar to a spouse who, when out of town for a business trip, might take a photo of his wife out of his wallet to look at when he calls her, to bring better focus to his mind.    He does not in any way mistake the photo for his actual wife, and he doesn't worship either the picture or his wife (in a "God" sense of the word).

Some posters here have claimed that Catholics worship Mary because they use so many different wonderful titles for her, or write some kind of flowerly and poetic love book to her.    I guess that means that if Grandpa calls Grandma a bunch of special names, like "sweetie-pie", and "honey-buns", and "sugar-baby", and "plum-pudding", and "flower-blossom", (etc.), or if he writes a long and syrupy love poem to her, he is somehow truly worshiping her as an actual deity, right?    (Not really.    We should always want to stick to the real truth in anything even remotely involving our search for God.    Do not read into things anything that isn't really there, as you would just be misleading yourself.)

As a good Jewish boy, Jesus surely would have fully honored his Mother as the Ten Commandments teach, and there should be no doubt that he would want all of us to honor his Mother too, and that he would strongly approve the fact that (as the Scriptures say) all generations would call her "blessed".    She played a vitally important role (given her by God) for ALL of us, of ALL generations, whether we are personally able to recognize that or not.

Humans can only see what you are doing from the outside, but God sees the heart.    God knows that I am not worshiping Mary when I am kneeling and praying there, and I know that I am not worshiping Mary, but other people may not know what I am doing.    So, now I am plainly telling you -- the assertion that I am worhiping Mary is a complete falsehood, and all falsehoods originate from the father of lies, Satan.    The Catholic Church does not teach the worship of Mary, no matter how many times and ways anyone might say that it does. You may be quite sincere in your belief about what you think I am doing, based on what you think you see and perceive, and you may not be deliberately lying about it, but it is (objectively speaking) a falsehood anyway, and all falsehoods come ultimately from Satan, whether someone sincerely believes them or not.    Once you learn that truth, make sure you are then aware that from then on, you are morally required to also speak the truth about it yourself, not continue to assert a falsehood (from the father of all lies) regarding it.



Issue 5 - The Catholic Church teaches the worship of statues, icons, and paintings.    No, they do not. Please see Issue 4 above (regarding Mary), as the same truths apply to both issues.



Issue 6 - The Catholic Church advocates and employs meaningless repetitious prayers.    No, it does not.    Catholics pray both non-formal, extemporaneous, spontaneous prayers, and certain formal, pre-defined prayers (such as the "Our Father", or the "Psalms").    Like many Protestants, many Catholics often "pray constantly, without ceasing, from the heart" with conversational prayers with God, but in addition to praying like that, they also utilize a huge treasure trove of prayers that others have composed and used before them in turning their face toward God.    Some detractors point specifically to the "Rosary", calling it vain and repetitious prayer.    That is simply false.    The Rosary uses a combination of Scriptural prayer repetitions to calm a person down and relax them, while at the same time using a series of specific meditations on various events in the life of Jesus, which together then facilitate a deep form of contemplative prayer.    The praying of the Rosary is quite often coupled with a special intention or purpose or "prayer request" or petition to God, such as a petition for the end of abortion.    It is certainly not "vain repetition" -- that is a falsehood (from the father of all lies).

Catholics advocate and make use of silent prayers, vocal prayers, individual and group prayers, formal and informal prayers, the prayer of the Mass, the "Divine Office / Liturgy of the Hours" prayers, "Lectio Divina", Rosaries, the "Chaplet of Divine Mercy", other Chaplets, Novenas, the "Stations of the Cross" prayers, musical prayers, chanting prayers, meditation, contemplative prayer, Eucharistic Adoration, and many other forms and types of prayers.    They use many rich and rewarding methods to approach and communicate with God.



Issue 7 - The Catholic Church does not place any or much emphasis at all on the Bible.     While we could all certainly benefit from a lot more time spent with the written Word of God, I think it is pretty ludicrous to claim that Catholics ignore the Bible.    A typical daily or Sunday Catholic Mass includes numerous Bible readings from the Gospels, the Psalms, and other Old Testament and New Testament books in the Bible.    In addition to that, the liturgical prayers are literally saturated with Biblical references.    Please attend some Catholic Masses, or see Dr. Edward Sri's book, " A Biblical Walk Through The Mass".    Also, check out this magazine called "Magnificat", available at this link:    Link for Magnificat Magazine   It contains the Bible readings for the month for every single daily and Sunday Mass, in addition to the liturgical prayers simply filled with Biblical references.    I can honestly say that I hear a lot more of the Bible during a typical Mass (daily or Sunday) than I ever did in any other kind of church service I ever attended in the many Protestant denominations I've been to.

Now, while we all should get a lot more familiar with the teachings contained in the Holy Scriptures, we also have to be careful how we look at other people and their own knowledge of the Bible.    The Pharisees and other Jewish religious leaders during the New Testament times looked down with immense boastful pride, sneering superiority, and arrogant haughtiness at all those who did not know the Scriptures quite as well as them (in the areas of technical knowledge, "chapter and verse" (so to speak), and the "letter of the law").    Of course, Jesus verbally shot them down again and again and again, as, in spite of their great and extensive knowledge of the Scriptures, they still did not really understand them in the correct way, and Our Lord was quick to correct them over and over and over again.    The teachings of the Bible entail so much more than a mere technical familiarity with them (and a knowledge of their numerical chapter and verse references) would indicate by themselves.

Some Catholics do not learn that "chapter and verse" of various Church teachings as well as they probably should, but they are exposed to so much more of the Scriptures in the course of their various liturgical services than people in many other denominations receive in their services.    (If you don't believe this, check it out for yourself by attending Mass a few times.)    (And, of course, just like all the various newer vernacular language translations, such as "English", the "chapter and verse" designations we use today were NOT a part of the original Bible whatsoever, but were added to the books of the Bible many centuries after they were written and transcribed.)

The "Catechism of the Catholic Church" also is just "loaded to the brim" with numerous Scripture references throughout, tying in the various teachings of the Catholic Church with their Biblical connections and roots in a deep and profound way, and giving the Biblical texts referenced.

This is just scratching the surface.    Please look into this just a little bit deeper, and you will very soon discover that the claim that the Catholic Church does not place any emphasis on the Bible is clearly just another falsehood.



Issue 8 - Instead of building large, beautiful, ornate Cathedrals and Churches, Catholics should use that money for the poor.     That eerily echoes the spurious argument used by Judas Iscariot, where he said that the woman who poured expensive perfume on Jesus should have used that money for the poor instead, but Jesus immediately rebuked him, and said the woman did exactly the right thing.    (See Matthew 26:6-11)

Catholics do try in all ways they humanly can to build the most beautiful Cathedrals, Basilicas, Churches, Chapels, and other structures, in order to do their very best to bring the greatest glory to God that they possibly can, and to provide the most magnificent facilities they conceivably can for the worship of God, and for honoring the special Real Presence of Our Lord.

The Catholic Church also happens to be the largest charitable organization in the world, in her extensive, world-wide, loving support of the sick and the poor and the needy.    (It is not an "either/or" kind of situation, but a "both/and" balance.)



Issue 9 - Do Catholics teach and believe that they can save themselves, or that salvation comes from God alone?   The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes from God alone.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph 169 - Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation. Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
Catholics do NOT believe they can save themselves, by works, or by any other means.    However, God, in his holy, sovereign will, has required that something be done on our own part, using our human free will, in order to be able to accept that salvation he offers.    God does not save us against our own free will which he gave us.    When he tosses us the lifeline of salvation from his ship of life, he wills that we have to do our part from within our own free will, by accepting that salvation he offers, and grabbing and holding on to that lifeline.    (We also do not believe in "once-saved, always saved", as that is neither Biblical, nor does it make any sense.)

Catholics look at salvation as an offering to us from God based on the saving blood in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary.    He wills that we accept this using our own free will, and this magnificent gift from God is like a beautiful diamond with many other facets to it as well.    For example, God might make use of a humble instruments such as fellow human creatures who share the Gospel with us, and he makes use of the Holy Sacraments he gave us to give us his Grace, and he uses the Holy Church he built and gave us, and he uses the Bible, and his commandments, and doing good things for the least of our brothers, and many other things as well, to help us get to the point where we freely accept the free gift he offers us, and then go on to actually demonstrate our acceptance of his gift in a truthful way by the way we live our lives.    Remember, Jesus once even used lowly, humble mud as an instrument to heal a blind man.    He could have just willed it, or snapped his fingers, or done whatever else he wanted to to effect that healing miracle, but he chose on that occasion to use a humble instrument to effect his holy will, and he still does that regularly today in many ways.

Protestants have all kinds of beliefs about salvation, and some of them are completely contradictory.    For example, some Protestants believe in that "once saved, always saved" doctrine, and some don't.    (They can't both be right.)    Some Protestants believe that some souls are predestined to be saved or lost, and some Protestants do not believe that, while other Protestants believe that God uses a way that we humans simply do not understand that allows us to use our free will to accept his offer of salvation or not accept it, even though God knows in advance what we are going to end up choosing.

Catholics believe that Christ's one-time sacrifice is made present ("re-PRESENTED") in an unbloody, Sacramental way in each and every Catholic Mass, NOT REPEATED, and that God supplies his grace from that gift to different people at different times.    We believe God is outside time.    (Most Protestants believe something similar, whether they realize it or not, as they do fully comprehend that they were not actually around PERSONALLY when Christ was crucified, so the saving grace from his sacrifice way back then has to be applied to us who are alive today in some supernatural way TODAY, as observed from OUR limited, human, time-based life perspective.)

Unfortunately, some Protestants blast Catholics for saying we do have a part given to us by God that we have to do ourselves in order to accept the gift of salvation he has offered us, and for our belief in a continual conversion process, where we have to reaffirm and re-establish that acceptance throughout our lifetimes, growing in holiness, based on the way God wills that it be done.    However, Protestants also believe that we humans have to do something on our part to accept that gift of salvation, whether it be to say a prayer to Jesus telling him of our belief and faith in him, and acceptance for the forgiveness his sacrifice on Calvary made available, or something else.    Some Protestants then believe no matter what you do after that, you will be saved (even if you turn around after that prayer and go out and rob a bank and all the people in it, rape a bunch of women, commit mass murder, then die).    Many other Protestants most certainly do not believe in that kind of "once saved, always saved" teaching.    There is a wide spectrum of differing beliefs in the Protestant world concerning these crucial salvation questions with mutually exclusive answers.

Catholics believe that only God saves us, we cannot save ourselves, but God wills that we cooperate throughout our lifetimes with that saving grace he offers, not to spurn his priceless gift, or throw it away, but to eagerly accept it, cherish it, and try our best (with God's grace and relying completely on his help and his compassionate mercy) to hold on to that precious gift for the rest of our lives here on Earth, and that from our human side, we should, as the Apostle Paul said, "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" - Phillipians 2:12.

Our Lord points out something extra involved in salvation in this text: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21.



Issue 10 - The Biblical meaning of "Church", as used in Matthew 16:18, 1 Timothy 3:15, etc.   Some people who have disagreed with the Catholic Church in the past have insisted that the Greek term looking roughly like "ekklesia" has been repeatedly mistranslated, and in "the Bible according to them", should have been translated only as the word "assembly", nothing else.    These folks should be made aware that, like virtually all words in all language-to-language dictionaries, high-quality Biblical Greek-English dictionaries have several different meanings listed for nearly every single word entry in the dictionary.    There is almost never a perfect, exclusive, clean, word-for-word translation capability between ANY two languages, as any reputable translator will tell you.    That Greek word that roughly looks like "ekklesia" using the English alphabet is no exception.    In numerous Biblical Greek-English dictionaries (including Strong's for the King James Version of the Bible - #1577), one possible English word given for ekklesia is "Church" , another is "Synagogue", another is "assembly", and there are several others given as well.

It is obviously very telling and significant that the translators who translated that Greek word for both Matthew 16:18 and 1 Timothy 3:15 for the vast majority of the Bible translations in current use in the English speaking world (in both the Catholic sphere and the Protestant sphere), translate that word to "church", deeming that to be the most exact word to use to appropriately reflect the precise meaning it would hold in our modern English language today.    To argue against that, one has to say that the Holy Spirit allowed all those Bible translators to get that "church" word wrong and only gives the "correct" translation to those individual readers/self-translators, who then try to use their own personal translation of that word to argue against the Church that Jesus Christ founded.

The list of translations that use the English word "church" include the "Revised Standard Version", the "King James Version", the "New International Version", the "American Standard Version", the "Douay-Rheims Version", the "English Standard Version", the "New American Standard Version", the "New International Reader's Version", the "New King James Version", the "Today's New International Version", and many other English translations.

Like the Catholic Church, most mainstream Protestant Churches today also accept that widespread "church" translation of that Greek word "ekklesia" in those Bible verses.

Some people have brought up that the word "church" is a more modern word derived from another language that was not around when the Greek books of the New Testament were written.    My guess is that a careful analysis of the matter will show that most of our modern English language was not around back then in its current form, and if we were to somehow be able to talk to those ancient people in our modern English language, no one in the whole ancient world would be able to understand what we were saying.    But, aside from that, the point they were making was completely irrelevant anyway.

Imagine (for example) that we discovered the long lost "Canadowizzy" tribe in the wilds of Canada somewhere.    Our missionaries then decided to make a new translation of the Bible for them in their native "Canadowizzy" language.    Then, imagine further that the translators discover there is no word in that tribe's language for "fig tree".    They find out the tribe calls trees "zeemies", and after showing them a real fig tree, and they eat the fruit of that fig tree, etc., the tribe decides they want to call fig trees "zug-zeemies", so they create that new term for this thing they had been totally unaware of before this.

So, in doing the tranlation, the translators use that brand new word, "zug-zeemy" (the tribe's singular form of the word) when translating the story of the fig tree.

Even though that is a brand new word, that is exactly the only word you should use for the translation for that "Canadowizzy" language, as that is the most exact, precise meaning of the word for "fig tree" used in their language right now.    The age of a word in the language that the Bible has been translated into has absolutely nothing to do with it.    You simply want to use the most exact, precise, correct word in ANY new translation, that gives the truest, most accurate meaning to the word as it was intended in the other language you are translating from.

Of course, unlike "Synagogues" and "Assemblies", the "Church" itself was a brand new concept in New Testament times.    Please remember that Jesus himself said he was going to build it upon a rock.    What he was talking about actually did not exist before he built it.    It was a brand new concept.





TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: billmaher; catholic; rome; rushlimbaugh; sandrafluke
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To: Jvette

Sorry for the lack of formatting in that post. Don’t know what happened.


501 posted on 03/14/2012 11:01:10 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: Religion Moderator

Very good.

Hmm, we haven’t discussed things in a while. Just saying hi. :)


502 posted on 03/14/2012 4:59:10 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: EnglishCon
Mind you, you’d arrive as meat paste. That is a vicious acceleration.

Nonsense. Bugatti drivers experience it all the time.


503 posted on 03/14/2012 5:02:34 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa
I think one of the cutest tactics here is the role of Sola Trafficus Copta, when they alone decide when enough has been said on a topic.

I know the type.

CountryGal did the same thing after telling us about the priest condemning babies to hell. Probably the same priest who ran the church she described, the one sans Stations of the Cross.

I found one of those too...

I understand, best to cut and run once it's clear you're hopelessly losing - but it's still amusing.

And so it goes.


504 posted on 03/14/2012 5:59:22 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: editor-surveyor
>> “Odd. I’ve been the one posting in-context Scripture with references to Apostolic teachings and early Church beliefs.” <<

. Exactly, no scripture, plus men’s attempt to cancel scripture and that is a rejection of God’s word. You never put a single line of relevent, contextual scripture in any post.

So the excerpts from Matthew backed up with other NT scripture aren't in your Bible either.

Umm, can you at least tell me what is in your Book of Matthew? I subscribe to the tradition version with 26 chapters.

Everything distinctly “catholic” is a stench in the nostrils of YHVH. (although it pleases satan)

Over the years, I have posted extensive Scripture as proof of Church practices. I guess that you have missed them.

505 posted on 03/14/2012 6:13:05 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Natural Law
I was reading 1 Kings this morning and I had to wonder how the first Temple was built without any drawings or images. I also wondered how the loophole was found to permit the engravings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers and how the massive olive wood statues of the cherubim were permitted. Makes you go hhhhmmmmmmmmm.

Exodus beginning in Chapter 24 is highly instructive as well. But I don't imagine that it's in their Bible either.

506 posted on 03/14/2012 6:16:31 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

>> “Umm, can you at least tell me what is in your Book of Matthew?” <<

.
Yes, total condemnation of Catholic practices:

Mat 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Mat 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mat 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Mat 23:9
And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Not in your Bible, are they?


507 posted on 03/14/2012 7:07:48 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: cuban leaf

Jim Jones was NOT Assembly of God. He founded his own religion.


508 posted on 03/14/2012 7:50:47 PM PDT by alnick
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To: alnick
Jim Jones was NOT Assembly of God. He founded his own religion.

so did Assembly of God!!

509 posted on 03/14/2012 7:54:44 PM PDT by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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To: alnick

Jim Jones was Disciples of Christ, a liberal flake-off of Baptists.


510 posted on 03/14/2012 8:19:32 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor

Jim Jones was a Marxist atheist, who realized by cloaking his Marxism in religion could be much more effective.


511 posted on 03/14/2012 8:20:58 PM PDT by dfwgator (Don't wake up in a roadside ditch. Get rid of Romney.)
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To: editor-surveyor
Not in your Bible, are they?

let's see not, the crucifixation has taken place and the apostles decide to fulfill their command to go forth and teach all nations. They have a copy of the Torah and a pile of various letters, documents, notes, submitted by followers up to date. As they try to decipher the various submissions, more keep coming in from apostles and other followers who have gone about their tasks. They recieve a gospel from James, Barrabas, Thomas, and letters and documents from all over the area. They decide to make a "book" compiling all the things that they recieve from their followers, but they must first edit it and decide what to use and what they will not put in their book.

They (the early Catholic church) take a look at Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and THEY decide that these will be the gospels, the good news of Christianity. They also include a bunch of letters from Paul, James, and many various and sundry writings which THEY considered relevant. They did, however, eliminate many which simply did not pass THEIR muster. They formulated the book and had someone HAND WRITE IT. As years went by, the monks and other clergy of the Catholic church copied the new bible many thousands of times. Only royalty and the wealthy could afford to purchase a copy hence the lack of distribution among the common people. Along came Gutenberg and his printing press.

from that point on, virtually anyone who could read (few at the time) could afford a bible, and soon one was available in many different languages (of course converted from language to language by Catholics. (there was no one else).The Catholics even left that pesky book of Matthew in...since they were the only ones around, they certainly could have eliminated it!!!

So, sit back, relax, read your Catholic protected bible, and let the true Christian church decide on how to handle St Matthew. I'm sure he will be impressed by their efforts!!

512 posted on 03/14/2012 8:21:10 PM PDT by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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To: terycarl

>> “They recieve a gospel from James, Barrabas, Thomas” <<

.
Absolute falsehood!

Thank God my Bible was secure 300 years before the Pharisees founded the pagan catholic church. The real church had the four real gospels and all of the epistles centuries before the catholic church existed.

It must feel good to belong to a ‘church’ that deliberately defies the commandments of Christ, and makes a seance mockery of his communion remembrance.


513 posted on 03/14/2012 9:02:11 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor; WmShirerAdmirer; lilycicero; MaryLou1; glock rocks; JPG; Monkey Face; ...
editor-surveyor wrote:
Thank God my Bible was secure 300 years before the Pharisees founded the pagan catholic church. The real church had the four real gospels and all of the epistles centuries before the catholic church existed.
Really? Care to try and document the dates? Say when "my Bible was secure 300 years before"? What date was "your Bible" secure? What translation is that? And what date do you claim the Catholic Church was founded by those pesky pharisees?
514 posted on 03/14/2012 9:36:12 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses

>> “What date was “your Bible” secure?” <<

In the late first century. The epistles had been circulated thoroughly around the Mediterranean.


515 posted on 03/14/2012 9:56:23 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor

“In the late first century.”

When and where did that happen and how do you know that?


516 posted on 03/14/2012 9:59:52 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses

I know it from reading Origen on how he assembled his codices. The pieces were just about everywhere anybody looked.


517 posted on 03/14/2012 10:19:38 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor

What translation is that?


518 posted on 03/14/2012 10:25:57 PM PDT by narses
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To: editor-surveyor
"In the late first century. The epistles had been circulated thoroughly around the Mediterranean."

The Bible wasn't possible that early The Jewish canon was not set until early in the 3rd century. It wasn't until the middle of the 2nd century that some written gospels and epistles began to be circulated. Remember that being Christian was a capital offense in the Roman Empire and the possession of Scripture could lead to a confiscation of all property and even martyrdom.

The bible was not necessary while the Apostles lived and while their students and direct witnesses lived. The Apostolic Tradition sufficed. It wasn't until there was a question about which readings were necessary to support the Liturgy that the Catholic Episcopacy began to debate the canon.

519 posted on 03/14/2012 10:29:03 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: editor-surveyor
"I know it from reading Origen on how he assembled his codices."

Origen didn't write anything until the 3rd century.

520 posted on 03/14/2012 10:33:02 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: editor-surveyor

What translation and what year is that?


521 posted on 03/14/2012 10:34:46 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses
It's the 1954 Armstrong Bricket Wood revision of the ancient Brooklyn translation.  Here's a group photo of the distinguished scholars who did the actual translation work:   

The crest on the pole behind them is rumored to be the official crest of the Orbital Select Mungus Fungus who those in the know recognize as the Nephilim responsible for developing the refined Lego Block Method of Scripture Interpretation and teaching that method to Martin Luther. Notice how little they've aged since the late sixteenth century.

522 posted on 03/14/2012 11:10:48 PM PDT by Rashputin (Only Newt can defeat both the Fascist democrats and the Vichy GOP)
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To: alnick

—Jim Jones was NOT Assembly of God. He founded his own religion.—

I was a member of AG at the time and we were told that he was AG. I’ll have to google.


523 posted on 03/15/2012 4:39:42 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: alnick

—Jim Jones was NOT Assembly of God. He founded his own religion.—
I just googled. He started out as AG and then started his own.

http://toddbentleyjimjones.blogspot.com/2008/07/jim-jones-and-todd-bentley.html


524 posted on 03/15/2012 4:43:28 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: editor-surveyor; narses

****I know it from reading Origen on how he assembled his codices. The pieces were just about everywhere anybody looked.*****

Really?, lol!!!

I don’t imagine you realized the absolute deliciousness of that statement when you typed it.


525 posted on 03/15/2012 9:21:47 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: Natural Law

The point was how widely dispersed the epistles were, and how consistent he found them to be.

God took care of spreading his word, and did it quickly.


526 posted on 03/15/2012 9:22:08 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: terycarl
5:00 1/186000 sec.

Why the fraction? Should have noted, your traveling at the speed of light from A to B. Constant speed, no stopping/accelerating.

527 posted on 03/15/2012 10:25:45 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: editor-surveyor

One would need to know clearly what an idol is in order to be taken seriously when accusing others of idolatry.


528 posted on 03/15/2012 10:29:45 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: editor-surveyor
"God took care of spreading his word, and did it quickly."

I think the point you are missing is how God differentiated between His inerrant word and the many, many other errant, inspired and not so inspired works being circulated at the time.

Although a recognized Church Father, Origen himself was never declared inerrant or a saint. In fact, there were a number of areas in which he was at odds with the Orthodoxy of the Church and well into heresy.

There were a lot of other documents with claims to Scripture that were ultimately rejected from Scripture. Among these were the Infancy Gospel of Thomas (the work of an actual Apostle), the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Andrew (which is mentioned by Pope Innocent I and St. Augustine) and the Epistle of Barnabas, who is actually mentioned in Acts. Additionally, there were a number of books that many of the time discounted and wanted left out. Not the least of these was the Book of Revelation.

So the issue is that without the Episcopacy (Magisterium) of the Catholic Church, through its councils, there would not be a concise, defined Bible today.

529 posted on 03/15/2012 10:35:44 AM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: Jvette

Ha-ha - excellent!!!


530 posted on 03/15/2012 12:50:10 PM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: narses; editor-surveyor

Ummmmm.....

The Catholic Bible outdates the King James version by well over a thousand years. The Canon of the Protestant Church wasn’t settled until the Reformation. The Catholic Canon was decided upon during the Roman era.

-—HOWEVER-—

In my humble opinion, now is NOT the time for doctrinal showdowns for either Church. In case anyone hasn’t noticed, this government of ours has declared war on Christianity and Judaism. If Jews of all denominations and Christians of all denominations don’t put up a united front and DEMAND that the First Amendment is upheld as written (and most definitely NOT the ACLU’s version), the United States will end up like the majority of Europe, a secular hell hole without the backbone to resist Shariah law. (If you don’t believe me, take a trip to “Londonistan”.)

That’s my take on the situation. I’m not saying that there aren’t Doctrinal differences between Jews, Catholics and Protestants, but now is definitely the time for unity. Differences can be settled later, but right now, survival must take precedence.

I now step off my soapbox.


531 posted on 03/15/2012 1:42:46 PM PDT by Absolutely Nobama (NO COMPROMISE! NO RETREAT! NO SURRENDER! I AM A CONSERVATIVE! CASE CLOSED!)
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To: Absolutely Nobama

Good point and well put. Thanks.


532 posted on 03/15/2012 1:51:18 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Absolutely Nobama; narses

>> “The Catholic Bible outdates the King James version by well over a thousand years.” <<

.
Really a misconception.

There really never was any movement to even have an official ‘catholic’ Bible until the KJV became available. The Douay Rheims is essentially a slightly modified KJV that was issued because catholics began to demand a Bible when so many Geneva and KJV Bibles began to be printed with the Gutenberg press.

Prior to that Bible codices were rare, and all differed slightly from one another because they were hand copied, sometimes from differing manuscripts that happened to be available to the particular scribe.

Prior to the printed Bible, the chief difference between protestant Bibles and catholic Bibles was the OT. Catholics mostly used the LXX, and Protestants used the Masoretic scrolls, each being translated mostly into latin if they were translated at all.


533 posted on 03/15/2012 2:06:02 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: Natural Law

Origen, and Clement were kind of squishey, wobbly, almost gnostic turkeys, but they did gather lots of manuscripts in the persuit of trying to support their gnostic leanings.


534 posted on 03/15/2012 2:18:03 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: D-fendr

An idol is any object that you might kneel before in worship, physically, or emotionally.


535 posted on 03/15/2012 2:24:08 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor
kneel before in worship, physically, or emotionally.

So if I kneel in worship at home and there's a chair in front of me, the chair is an idol?

536 posted on 03/15/2012 2:26:23 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

If that chair represents that which you are praying to, yes.


537 posted on 03/15/2012 2:29:11 PM PDT by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com/)
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To: ctdonath2

Is it necessary that I believe the chair is God in order for it to be an idol? And if I do not, then it is not?


538 posted on 03/15/2012 2:32:35 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: editor-surveyor
"There really never was any movement to even have an official ‘catholic’ Bible until the KJV became available."

I'm not sure either of us know the point you are trying to make here. Maybe you are trying to conflate "official" from Nihil Obstat and codex with canon.

Codices predated the Canon of the Bible in most cases and very few are considered anything more than an errant collection if both inerrant and errant works. None that I am aware of precisely reflect the canon as adopted by the Church at the Council of Rome and that has been used by Christendom for the subsequent 1,00 years until the Reformation sought to reduce it. And then, sot even the Reformation relied on any of these codices as a decisive Table of Contents.

If you are trying to rely on these as Scripture then you are on far shakier ground than the Catholics you accuse of elevating Tradition over Scripture. The Magisterial mandate of the Church strived to make every translation of the Bible, into every vernacular language, a true and faithful (orthodox) version and sought to ban those that fell short or advocated any heretical positions.

The purpose of a written Bible was to aid the various and growing Catholic Churches and Dioceses in determining the Traditions to be passed on and the Scripture to be read in the Liturgy.

Until error and heresy were introduced in a way that could affect more than the authors there was really no controversy and no need for anything to be banned.

539 posted on 03/15/2012 2:36:12 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: Natural Law

You need to learn how to follow a thread back, and you will ask way fewer silly questions.


540 posted on 03/15/2012 2:58:32 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: D-fendr

I think that you know that question was facetious.


541 posted on 03/15/2012 3:00:03 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor

Not at all facetious. I’m applying your definition. It fulfills all your requirements for an idol.

One would need to know clearly what an idol is in order to be taken seriously when accusing others of idolatry.

Would you like to clarify?


542 posted on 03/15/2012 3:03:51 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: editor-surveyor
"Origen, and Clement were kind of squishey, wobbly, almost gnostic turkeys,..."

I think you ought to rethink this. Origen may have held Platonic heretical positions, but gnosticism was not one of them. His writings were largely to refute gnosticism.

Clement is not much different. If you are referring to St. Clement of Alexandria you will find his works were not sympathetic to the gnostic heresies. If you were referring to Pope Clement I he compiled no codices and very little of his writings survive. There is only one reference to the Gnostic's that I am aware of in his 2nd Letter to the Corinthians and it isn't flattering of them.

543 posted on 03/15/2012 3:12:04 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: editor-surveyor
"You need to learn how to follow a thread back, and you will ask way fewer silly questions."

Please let's not get into a tit-for-tat exchange here. There is no need for rancor. I didn't ask any questions, silly or otherwise in my post. I have followed the thread within this thread regarding the origin's and the integrity of the Bible.

If you would care to point out an error in my postings and substantiate it with verifiable information I would love to see it. If I am wrong I will admit it and thank you for adding to my knowledge (and humility).

544 posted on 03/15/2012 3:20:56 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: editor-surveyor
>> “Umm, can you at least tell me what is in your Book of Matthew?” <<>{? . Yes, total condemnation of Catholic practices:

You keep posting the same things and we keep showing you that you are posting out of context and post the context, as well as supported Gospel and NT verses (as I have done several times here) and you simply ignore it and keep repeating your claim.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Perhaps we can say: when you make false claims, use not vain repetitions, as the bigots do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

You keep claiming Christianity, yet you have spoken often in the past about rejecting Christianity in favour of your own version of religion. One that is remarkable similar to the various spawn of Azusa Street from a hundred years ago.

We Christians on the other hand, believe in the Trinity (one of the last things that Christ told His Apostles about), and about their role in the Church that He created. You have rejected both of these ever on these boards.

545 posted on 03/15/2012 4:28:53 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Natural Law
"I know it from reading Origen on how he assembled his codices."

Origen didn't write anything until the 3rd century.

Don't you see that this is yet another Vatican plot to rewrite history and again persecute the mythological subterranean family of the true Christian who stayed underground like moles and popped up unexpectedly in 1905 after nearly 1900 years in a cave, goggling their eyes in the light of day. Some accepted that light. Others simply hooded themselves and used their own lanterns which they called Christianity, refusing to believe that their own invention was not what they thought it was.

546 posted on 03/15/2012 4:37:18 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: editor-surveyor; Absolutely Nobama; narses
>> “The Catholic Bible outdates the King James version by well over a thousand years.” <<

. Really a misconception. There really never was any movement to even have an official ‘catholic’ Bible until the KJV became available.

How is it that you are so wrong in so many ways so consistently?

You may bruit on about Origen, but Origen did not get the eventual canon correct. Scripture was accepted in a Catholic Council in 393 in Hippo and confirmed in Carthage in 397 and 419. Well, you only missed it by 1200 years or so.

547 posted on 03/15/2012 4:45:26 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: editor-surveyor

What translation and what year is that?


548 posted on 03/15/2012 5:09:06 PM PDT by narses
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To: Rashputin

Boy oh boy,you’d need a pretty big pointy hat to house a head like that! < rib >


549 posted on 03/15/2012 5:15:02 PM PDT by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: mitch5501

Yeah, the guys with the hats don’t have the pointy heads and the guys with the pointy heads don’t have the hats. Go figure.


550 posted on 03/15/2012 5:41:07 PM PDT by Rashputin (Only Newt can defeat both the Fascist democrats and the Vichy GOP)
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