To My "Bible Only" Christian Brothers and Sisters, From A Catholic Convert [a humble vanity]

[editor-surveyor]

>> “It is necessary to obey the presbyters in the Church-those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the Apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father.” <<

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A delightful example of Gnosticism and Nico Laitanism all blended together. And then blaming it on “the Father.”

This is specifically why traditions were rejectd by Christ, along with the nico laitanism as had been practiced by the sanhedrin, and now is the backbone of the catholic church.

Traditions change on a whim, as evidenced by the injection of goddess worship under the name of Mary in the third century.
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[EnglishCon]

No worries. No offense taken.

I honestly do not know what you mean by the term “higher criticism” so I simply cannot comment on it until I understand. I work 16 hours a day, and my religion, though the core of my life is not something I spend a lot of time thinking about unless I have to. One of the joys of talking here is I have to.

I tried to explain my personal understanding of evolution as part of Gods will and plan. One additional reason to praise God and his works.

[mgist]

Sorry friend but a Catholic priest saying a baby would go to hell is completely against Catholic doctrine. Since our priests have years of theology training along with academic training I find that impossible to believe. Not saying you are lying, just that a real Catholic priest could not even believe it much less say it. I do believe that lost lay people would repeat that myth. That comment may have come from a lay person, but not a priests.

[Natural Law]

"Nico Laitanism"

What is this?

I am not going to engage in any kind of debate with you regarding the validity or merit of the historical writings other than to point out that the students and near contemporaries of the Apostles share a decidedly different version of doctrines and events that you report. Your argument is with them and history, not with me.

Peace be to you.

[editor-surveyor]

Your argument is apparently with the Greek language.

Especially since Christ addressed the comment with high praise to the churches that had roundly rejected it.

Catholicism is of its father the devil.

[Natural Law]

"Catholicism is of its father the devil."

I forgive your outburst and will pray that you overcome those demons that trouble and cause you to behave is such an un-Christian manner with those who share your profession to love Jesus but do not follow your way.

Peace and Blessings.

[editor-surveyor]

Peace and blessings from the angriest attack postor on FR?
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I guess that’s a keeper.

[Natural Law]

"I guess that’s a keeper."

If, in the past, it was me and not the truth that offended you I ask your forgiveness.

[Zuriel]

He’ll get to your request when he gets back from this trucking run. (maybe a couple of days)

Thanks, and God bless.
the Mrs.

[xzins]

Thanks, Mrs. Z

[Heart-Rest]

There are a couple things in your post I wanted to respond to, because I used to see some of these issues in a similar way to the way you see them.    (I hope they don't run me right out of here on a rail because of the length of this reply to your own lengthy post.)    :-)

Here goes.

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Issue 1 - Bible only? Where in the Bible does it specifically say that someone was instructed or inspired by God to write the "Gospel of Matthew"? (Please give me the actual Bible book, chapter, and verse where it explicitly says that.)

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

Thanks for illustrating exactly what I was talking about.    The words "Gospel of Matthew" are not found anywhere in the text you provided.    In fact, there is no text to be found anywhere in the Bible which says that the "Book of Matthew" belongs in the Bible, or the "Book of Mark" belongs in the Bible, or that says that any other Book or writing that is in the Bible belongs in the Bible. There was no "Table of Contents", or list of books to include, provided within any of the original Bible sources themselves.

In other words, there were no instructions inside the Bible itself that spelled out exactly which books or writings actually belong in the Bible.    That was decided by "Holy Tradition" -- Church Councils -- human beings, under the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit, who met and discussed which books/writings should be included in the Bible, then acted upon those discussions, defining exactly which books should be made part of the Bible.

If you are a believer in the Bible, you HAVE to rely on Holy Tradition, involving those human beings in those early Church Councils who decided which writings were going to be included in the Bible.    (You don't have any other choice -- that is exactly what happened.)    That was my point in my post -- you can't truly be a Bible-only Christian -- you have to rely on other sources, such as the Church Councils which defined precisely which writings were to be included in the Canon of Holy Scriptures.    Those Church Councils and their decisions about which writings were to be considered part of the Scriptures are NOT discussed in the Bible, anywhere. They came ONLY through Holy Tradition in those early Church Councils.

(By the way, Paul's second letter to Timothy could not have been referring to the New Testament, as the New Testament was not even finished being written yet, let alone compiled into the final form of the New Testament yet. That Epistle (2 Timothy), which Paul was still writing there in that text you quoted, is itself actually part of that New Testament, and was selected to be included in the Bible by those Church Councils).

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Issue 3 - The Biblical Basis for the Catholic teaching concerning the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. Many Scriptural passages affirm the Catholic teaching about the Holy Eucharist, including "John 6", "1 Corinthians 11", and many others. To get a good overview for the Scriptural basis for this teaching about the Eucharist of the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Church), I would recommend a good small book

Meaningless. Asking me to get a "good overview for the Scriptural basis" by directing me to Catholic material is like me asking you to read Reformed material. (BTW-I frequently read Catholic material with an open mind. I doubt if many Catholics read Reformed material.)

So, using that logic, since the entire New Testament was written by Pro-Christian Christians, it is "meaningless", and you cannot possibly accept any of it, since there are no opposing writings from anti-Christians included in there?

I think you should trust a little more in Jesus Christ who solemnly promised that when he built his Church, the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He meant it, and he didn't lie.

(Plus, two of those four books I mentioned in that particular issue were actually written by former Protestants, one of whom (Scott Hahn) used to be a highly respected Protestant (Presbyterian) Pastor, with a strongly "reformed" background.)

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Issue 4 - The Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary. No, it does not. It is a complete misperception and misunderstanding. When you see people kneeling before a statue

Exo 20:4-5 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

However Catholics like to try to justify themselves on this point, they are in clear violation of one of the top ten of God's commandments.

So, five chapters later in Exodus, when God commands them to make some graven images of angels, you think he is violating that earlier commandment he made, as you understand it?

Exodus 25:18-19 --- And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.    Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.

Then, in the next chapter...

Exodus 26:1 --- "Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen and blue and purple and scarlet stuff; with cherubim skillfully worked shall you make them.

What God was talking about in the Ten Commandments was idolatry -- the making and worship of images as idols of "other gods", not artistic spiritual images (non-idols), such as the angels mentioned just a few chapters later (spiritual images), which were (obviously) perfectly permissible with God, as he actually ordered that they be made.

Perhaps one could mistakenly think that God (or his Bible) was somehow confused about this issue between these two texts in the book of Exodus, or, more likely, one might think that you just may be misinterpreting one or both of those commands from God.    Now, when assessing whether God was confused, or whether you are misinterpreting that commandment and the Bible, I'll go with the latter every single time.    (You should too - God is not confused.)

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Issue 5 - The Catholic Church teaches the worship of statues, icons, and paintings.

Please explain the term venerating. It's not any different than worshipping.

Veneration means "giving honor", like the commandment says to give to your parents.    Worship is what you give God alone.    They ARE completely different.    (You don't worship your parents, do you?)

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Issue 6 - The Catholic Church advocates and employs meaningless repetitious prayers. No, it does not. Catholics pray both

Do you mean, "Hail Mary, full of grace...."?

Yes, since that was one of the prayers I specifically mentioned in that first post, that certainly WAS one of the prayers I was referring to.    I told you back there in that post why considering that as "meaningless repetition" is bogus and false, generated by the father of all falsehoods.

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Issue 7 - The Catholic Church does not place any or much emphasis at all on the Bible. While we could all certainly benefit from a lot more time spent with the written Word of God, I think it is pretty ludicrous to claim that Catholics ignore the Bible.

And how many bible studies do they allow? How many commentaries do they have? You'll find that there aren't a whole lot.

No, I will NOT find that there aren't a whole lot.    (There most certainly ARE a whole lot.)    Do a Google search on "Catholic Bible Commentaries", for example.)    And there is absolutely no limit to the number of Bible studies allowed in the Catholic Church.    They are going on all the time.    Several of the books in the list of books I included are Bible commentaries, written by highly esteemed Biblical experts/scholars, and actually there are a huge number of other Catholic ones available.    I would also urge you to check out EWTN some time.    They are always doing all kinds of Bible studies -- please check them out.

In addition, many of the books on the first list I provided were Bible Study related books.    (See especially books by Scott Hahn, Edward Sri, Tim Gray, Jeff Cavins, and Stephen Ray, for starters.)

Also, there are many Catholic Bible Commentaries available.    Here are just a couple examples:

Navarre Bible & Commentaries

Ignatius Catholic Study Bible: New Testament

The Great Adventure / Bible Timeline - Bible Study Series

Also, check out this web site for a lot of Catholic Bible resources:

Saint Joseph Communications

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Issue 8 - Instead of building large, beautiful, ornate Cathedrals and Churches, Catholics should use that money for the poor.

Nothing wrong with having a nice building. Something is wrong when you have beautiful mable bathrooms with gold fixtures.

Got a Bible text for that assertion, or is that from gospel according to you?

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Issue 9 - Do Catholics teach and believe that they can save themselves, or that salvation comes from God alone? The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes from God alone. ... However, Well, you started out well.

Let me ask you something from a slightly different angle -- when God with his sovereign power and will chose to enter this world (Jesus), beginning the path that would lead to Calvary and our only hope for salvation, did he choose to do that without any human involvement (as he easily could have), or did he choose to involve a human being in that process, being born of a human woman named Mary?    Was Mary involved in any way in giving birth to Our Savior, raising him, and helping him on HIS path to providing us our salvation, or is the Bible lying?    Can you distinguish in your mind the concept that HE brought that salvation to us, but that he also chose to involve a human Mother on his path to that sacrifice?    Are both of those things true, or not?    If God himself chose in his sovereign power and will to involve a human Mother to bring Jesus to us, and eventually see him be crucified for our sins, are you denying that he chose to involve a human Mother in that path of Jesus to our salvation?

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Issue 10 - The Biblical meaning of "Church", as used in Matthew 16:18, 1 Timothy 3:15, etc. Some people who have disagreed with the Catholic Church in the past have insisted that the Greek term looking roughly like "ekklesia" has been repeatedly mistranslated, and in "the Bible according to them",

Never heard this. However, are you saying the the ONLY church is the Catholic Church and you can be saved ONLY through the Catholic Church?

This issue was discussed in response to some people who were saying in a number of prior threads that the Greek word used in some of these passages could not possibly be translated as "church" (like it is in most of the English Bible tranlations in modern use), but had to be translated as "assembly".    Many respected Biblical Greek-English Dictionaries do not truthfully bear out that assertion they made.

[Heart-Rest]

Welcome Home!

I would also like to congratulate you on a exhaustive apologetics posted in support of the Catholic Church. May our Lord continue to guide you on your chosen path. May He bless you and your family.

Thanks!    If that term "exhaustive" also meant or implied "exhausting" to read, I am sorry!    (I guess I got just a bit carried away.)    :-)

(This is a hit-and-run post, as I have to go do something else for a while right now, but I do really appreciate your "Welcome Home" message.)

[D-fendr]

Please correct me if I’m wrong here:

You disagree with all Christians, Protestant and Catholic, on our most fundamental belief that Christ is God; but, your primary, or sole, focus on Christian threads is Catholic’s view of evolution.

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[EnglishCon]

Brother, it is no problem.

You want to see them when we start talking string theory ....

[editor-surveyor]

For what little need there is, yes, without question.

[Zionist Conspirator]

You disagree with all Christians, Protestant and Catholic, on our most fundamental belief that Christ is God; but, your primary, or sole, focus on Christian threads is Catholic’s view of evolution.

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Oh, do please excuse me. It's just that as a Catholic student at a large university I was advised by my "denominational counselor" to leave the Catholic Church because the way I believed "wasn't Catholic" while the Pelosis, the Kennedys, the Morans, and the Sibelius' go their merry way taking communion week after week because, having been born in the Catholic Church, they can't possibly be un-Catholic.

Excuse me also for getting fed up with the hypocrisy that believes in magical babies and heavenly women playing basketball with the sun (drying people's clothes in the process) but who can't stomach the first eleven chapters of Genesis because "we don't want to be confused with that white trash" (an attitude impossible to defend considering Catholics depend on Fundamentalist Protestants to do so much of the heavy lifting in the culture war while they take pot shots at "Bible-thumpers" and "brain-dead bibliolators." Nice to see such pan-chr*stian love on display.

And pardon me if I get tired of hearing how the Catholic faith "has never changed once in two thousand years" while the church fathers are written off as scientific ignoramuses because "they didn't know what we know today."

[Zionist Conspirator]

I tried to explain my personal understanding of evolution as part of Gods will and plan. One additional reason to praise God and his works.

You didn't understand a single word I said, did you?

Did you read the article I linked?

[NYer]

If that term "exhaustive" also meant or implied "exhausting" to read, I am sorry!

No ... on the contrary, you have done a masterly job of defending the faith! Oftentimes, given the poor catechesis of so many catholics, the bishops worry about who will catechize the catholic community. I truly believe that catechesis will come from the converts. They have journeyed into the church by addressing all of the tough questions. Who better to bring back the lost sheep.

Kudos and THANK YOU! May our Lord richly reward you for your defense of His church.

[Natural Law]

"It's just that as a Catholic student at a large university I was advised by my "denominational counselor" to leave the Catholic Church..."

Do you or did you believe that the afore mentioned "denominational counselor" or for that matter any collection of lay persons or clergy could establish or revise Church doctrine and dogma?

However, it sounds to me that if you held and expressed the position of believing that the virgin birth was "magic babies" or that the assumption of Mary was akin to "celestial women's basketball" the advice given you was pretty good.

[EnglishCon]

OK FRiend. I am sorry, I did not realize what you were going through.

Our faith gets tested. Badly, sometimes. Yet every single day.

I am not one who thinks he has the only way. It took me years to find my way - and that is pretty much normal from what I have seen.

May the Lord guide you and keep you - no matter what path you choose to the Truth. You need to talk, we are here. Both to talk AND to listen.
My priest and my heart both say that God speaks to us all individually. My preference is for a fairly rigid way of worship. I am a hierarchical person.
Know yourself, right?