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The "Inconvenient Tale" of the Original King James Bible
Handsonapologetics ^ | Gary Michuta

Posted on 03/17/2012 7:26:45 AM PDT by GonzoII

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To: HarleyD

Harley,

God gives us Grace to follow His will, but we are free to accept that Grace and follow His will for us. We are also free to reject Grace and follow our own will against what God wants us to do

Saint Paul is an example of freely not following the will of God when as Saul he approved of the stoning of Saint Stephan and than later followed the will of God freely when he followed the Catholic Church and Pope Saint Peter;)


601 posted on 04/24/2012 4:11:15 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
God gives us Grace to follow His will, but we are free to accept that Grace and follow His will for us. We are also free to reject Grace and follow our own will against what God wants us to do

God has laid out a perfect plan for our lives (Jer 29:11). It is our nature to constantly want to reject God's perfect plan because we are rebellious. God graciously prods us back on course with either His rod (harshly) or His staff (softly) every time we start to stray simply so He can protect His good name (Psalm 23). How far God will allow us to stray is understood only by Him.

We no more will follow God's commands than a two-year old would listen to us telling him not to touch a bit of candy in a candy store. It is like God giving us manna from heaven. We take the food of the angels and grind it, boil it, fry it and pervert it in every way imaginable. We just simply cannot take what God has given us, thank Him that He was kind enough to provide such a feast and be satisfied. Instead we grumble for the quail of earth when He has given us the bread of heaven. We are never satisfied. And if any of us Christians think we freely will follow God, all we need to do is ask ourselves how many times have we really wanted that quail instead of accepting what God has graciously provided.

Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

We HAVE to be led by the Holy Spirit, otherwise we would never do the things of God.

I believe we would agree that Paul was not a Christian when stoning Stephan. He wasn't given much choice when on the Damascus Road in his conversion. And as far as following Pope Peter, it seems like it was almost the other way around or at the very least they were coequal. Paul stood up to Peter (Gal) and felt his mission was to the Gentiles while Peter was to the Jews.

602 posted on 04/25/2012 4:04:34 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
And if any of us Christians think we freely will follow God

Harley , God provides us with the Grace to follow His will,it is our will coming into line with His will when we freely accept this Grace and it is our Will being self serving if we decide not follow the Will of God.

I believe we would agree that Paul was not a Christian when stoning Stephan. He wasn't given much choice when on the Damascus Road in his conversion

Saul(Paul) obviously was given a choice when Christ said to him in the form of a question... "Saul,Saul, why do you persecute me?(Acts 9) "

Saul(Paul) was given Grace to see his error,but still had a choice to go into the city to follow Christ's will.

For all we know someone like Nero might have been given the same CHOICE as Saul(Paul) and chose to continue to kill Christians

Harley, this denial of free will is nothing more than Gnostic determinism or fatalism that is Manichean teaching that was condemned throughout Christian history and was revived with a fervor with the gnostic John Calvin .

From the words of Saint Irenaues....

“Forasmuch as all men are of the same nature, having power to hold and to do that which is good, and having power again to lose it, and not to do what is right; before men of sense, (and how much more before God!) some… are justly accused, and receive condign punishment, because they refuse what is just and right.” Saint Irenaeus

You're now free use your free will to believe whatever you want,dear brother!

This topic has been discussed at nauseum here of FR

603 posted on 04/26/2012 11:01:24 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
Harley, this denial of free will is nothing more than Gnostic determinism or fatalism that is Manichean teaching that was condemned throughout Christian history and was revived with a fervor with the gnostic John Calvin.

I wouldn't say that. IMO, to deny the sovereignty of God over our lives is far worst then to deny the free will of man. One has scriptural support.

This topic has been discussed at nauseum here of FR

That is very true. That is simply because from this error springs a host of other errors.

604 posted on 04/27/2012 5:34:26 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
to deny the sovereignty of God over our lives is far worst then to deny the free will of man

Catholicism does not deny God's sovereignty

Calvin, and seemingly your idea of God's sovereignty is within man's concept of time, while the correct sovereignty of God is God knowing everything in one NOW-all at once.

Calvin made the grave mistake of not understanding God is beyond our concept of time and applied everything to his heretical beliefs of denial of free will- in doing so he applied human concept of time to God

605 posted on 04/27/2012 6:08:18 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
It is, in fact, a denial of the sovereignty of God when one states that God does not have control over every aspect of one’s life-including the decisions one makes. It is of great comfort to know that whatever decision I may make, I cannot goof up my life simply because God will correct it. Not because He loves me (although that's true enough). But since I represent God, He will make sure that I don't besmearch His glorious name or dishonor His Son's name. God leads me in the path of righteousness for His name sake. (Ps 23) And, you know, in all honesty that is far more important to me then God's love for me.

You keep insisting on the “denial of free will”. There is only man's will and there is God's will. Man's human will is simply out of step with God's will-otherwise we would ALWAYS be doing God's will. One has to ask themselves that if they are free to do what they want, why in heaven's name don't they do God's will all the time. I certainly wished I could. But I'm corrupted and I make those choices to be like this. That is not free will. That is giving in to my will. Even as a Christian I'm rebellious and wicked. I don't do the things that I want to do and the very things that I don't want to do is what I do. (Romans) This is our dilemma. And it is Christ who paid the price for the sins of my rebelliousness so that God the Father can look past all of my folly and see the perfection of Christ.

It isn't that Calvin couldn't understand the time-space continuum. It's that Calvin understood the nature of man-man does not want to do the things of God. All one has to do is look inside their heart to understand this problem.

606 posted on 04/28/2012 5:56:00 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
It is, in fact, a denial of the sovereignty of God when one states that God does not have control over every aspect of one’s life-including the decisions one makes.

Nonsense, Harley. It is the denial of the sovereignty of God not to realize that he allows free will decisions that does not effect His sovereignty while still being in control.

Here is a good explanation from a protestant AW Tozer

“An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities. Nothing can change it. This is at least a faint picture of Sovereignty. On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port. Both freedom and Sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other.” -A.W. Tozer (The Knowledge Of The Holy, XXII, p. 111)

607 posted on 04/28/2012 10:13:23 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
With all due respect to A.W. Tozer, he's simply wrong. Where his analogy breaks down is people are not set adrift to some destination with no control over what they will do. There is no sovereignty in that. (While heading for NY will God protect you on the shuffleboard course?)

And this is NOT what Psalms 23 states. The Lord is my shepherd. He make me lie down... He leads me besides still waters... He restores me... He leads me into righteousness... Honestly, I wonder if people really think about what Psalms 23 actually means. Do people think they just board a cruise ship and off they go? This isn't the Love Boat.

Here is a better example not from Tozer but from God:

Under the "free will" paradigm this story would make no sense. Once Jonah decided to go to Tarshish that would be that. Jonah's activities most assuredly were determine by decree and not only did Jonah know it but so did the people who threw him overboard.

We know Jonah's "choice" and God's "choice". God has a way of convincing His people to do what He wants done. Our choice is how do we want to smell after we get there.

And this is a recurring theme of scripture...

But, as Nebuchadnezzar points out, one only understands this when their reason returns. ;O)

608 posted on 04/28/2012 11:41:51 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

Another brilliant Bible lesson, Harley.

Thank you for God’s Scriptural truth and Christ’s abiding promises.


609 posted on 04/28/2012 4:00:18 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: HarleyD

Harley,

The whole story of Jonah builds up God giving the stubborn Jonah many free choices to follow His will and Jonah did not. Finally the stubborn Jonah went into Nineveh when he decided to freely follow God’s will.

Mary on the other hand freely followed the Will of God perfectly!


610 posted on 04/28/2012 5:05:36 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
Perhaps our definition of "free" is different. In my mind "free" will is NOT free if a giant fish swallows you and vomits you up on the shore of where you're suppose to go. It's not exactly like God telling Jonah, "Hey, want to rethink your decision? Please?"

As far as Mary goes the scriptures tells us that she submitted to God.

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the servant [fn] of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.

Mary's "choice" was to submit to the will of God regardless of the consequenses. But even Catholic doctrine is goofy and inconsistent. If God kept Mary absolutely pure, then of course her choice would be to choose the will of God rather than her own will. That is the definition of purity. There is no free choice. You either do your will or God's will.

And, btw, this was not an easy decision for Mary. The whole situation "troubled" her but she was willing to submit to God's will in this instance. And as she exclaim, from this one act of obedience she will be blessed forever.

But to say that Mary followed the Will of God perfectly in every instance and every aspect of her life is simply not so.

Mary could not see the will of God here otherwise she would have known Christ to be in God's house. Like all of us, she simply did not understand God's will. We have to be led to do His will.

Not to minimize the great feats of people like Moses, Abraham, Mary and others, but it makes it a bit easier if an angel pops in and tells you what is God's will for your life. When you don't have these anchor points it is far more difficult to trust that your path is controlled by God and it is the very best for your life. Trust me-I know.

Jhn 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

611 posted on 04/29/2012 3:44:35 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
Mary's "choice" was to submit to the will of God regardless of the consequenses.

So far so good,dear brother. It was a choice and not forced.

If God kept Mary absolutely pure, then of course her choice would be to choose the will of God rather than her own will. That is the definition of purity. There is no free choice

The Blessed Mother always CHOOSE the will of God freely-that is free will, Harley. What part about the word choice don't you understand? Choice is a free decision to choose one thing or another,good or bad, love or hate etc...

But to say that Mary followed the Will of God perfectly in every instance and every aspect of her life is simply not so Than you went on to quote Luke 2:48-51

The following illustrates Catholic teaching on these verses by Tim Staples

First verse is Luke 2:48-51: "And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." And he said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?" And they did not understand the saying which he spoke to them. And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart." In this passage, Jesus was already beginning to show his glory wasn't he?. He was preaching to the teachers in the temple, and they all were amazed. A twelve year old stumping these learned teachers of the Law. And by Jesus' remark " Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?", you would think that He was indeed planning on showing his glory. But what happens? Mary basically says: "It's not time yet, son, let's go home." Jesus obeyed and "And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart."( Luke 2:51).

Hope this helps you understand the Catholic teaching?

612 posted on 04/29/2012 7:00:54 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
The Blessed Mother always CHOOSE the will of God freely-that is free will, Harley. ...The Blessed Mother always CHOOSE the will of God freely-that is free will, Harley.

According to Augustine's logic this was not the case.

According to the teachings of Augustine our Lord Jesus was unique in his ability to freely choose not to sin.

Now, if you would like to lay claim to say that Augustine was wrong and that Mary had the same unique property, then what you are saying is that Mary is Co-Redemptix with Christ. That is, they are on the same level and equal in every sense of the word.

If you make this claim, then as Augustine's points out, Mary's will was not free. As Christ's will was free but bounded to do the will of the Father-to redeem the earth, so Mary's will would have been bounded.

So there is the dilemma and the arguments.

1) Mary's will was bounded like Christ to do the Fathers will (and Augustine is wrong in suggesting that Christ was unique). Mary, like Christ, gave up her will and is equal in every sense of the word as Christ as Savior. Just like Christ said, "Not my will but Thine." so it would be for Mary.

2) Christ's will is unique in that He alone gave up His will to be subject to the Father's will. Mary never gave up her will but (let's say for sake of argument) that she "freely" submitted herself to every will of the Father throughout her life. This would not make her Co-Redemptrix-just someone who lived a perfect life. This means that she was not tainted by the curse of original sin, Paul would have been wrong to say that "All have sinned and fall short...", and Mary would not be in need of a Savior contrary to her own words in Luke. Thus anyone could live a perfect life without Christ. There is no such thing as original sin as Mary is clearly a child of Adam and she lived a perfect life.

So do you believe Mary to be Co-Redemptrix and agreeing that her will would not be free; or do you believe there is no such thing as original sin? Those are the choices of your argument.

BTW-Please note the numerous heresies. This is why I constantly discuss "free will". From this one concept springs just about every heresy imaginable.

613 posted on 04/29/2012 1:51:59 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

“”According to the teachings of Augustine our Lord Jesus was unique in his ability to freely choose not to sin.””

Perhaps you should stop reading Augustine through calvanist websites and realize that Augustine made retractions on things and also wrote that Mary CHOSE as is illustrated in his own words from his writings on Holy Virginity

Saint Augustine On Holy Virginity
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1310.htm

“that in her by fitting miracle the Son of God should receive the form of a servant, but, being to be a pattern to holy virgins, lest it should be thought that she alone needed to be a virgin, who had obtained to conceive a child even without sexual intercourse, she dedicated her virginity to God, when as yet she knew not what she should conceive, in order that the imitation of a heavenly life in an earthly and mortal body should take place of vow, NOT OF COMMAND; THROUGH LOVE OF CHOOSING, not through necessity of doing service.” Saint Augustine

“”then what you are saying is that Mary is Co-Redemptix with Christ. That is, they are on the same level and equal in every sense of the word.””

Co-Redemptrix does not mean equal , Harley

Here is good article from Monsignor Calkins that illustrates this

http://motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=833&Itemid=40

God included Mary in His plan for our salvation, including her sorrows with and under Christ for the sake of His Church during the actual event of our Redemption on Calvary. A dogma on Mary’s spiritual motherhood as Mediatrix of Grace and Coredemptrix would clarify that she is not equal to Christ in her role, yet would uphold her unique participation in the work of our salvation and her unique role in dispensing God’s grace to her children.

Harley, even you can participate with Christ when you bring others to him,as Saint Paul said “Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.” Col 1:24 - We do participate in the Redemption

Perhaps you should say a few Hail Mary’s yourself and your eyes might be opened to the Love Our Blessed Mother has for you too. She brings every prayer through her to her Son and it always glorifies Christ.


614 posted on 04/30/2012 4:08:22 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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615 posted on 12/25/2012 4:50:18 PM PST by narses
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616 posted on 12/25/2012 4:50:54 PM PST by narses
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617 posted on 12/25/2012 4:51:57 PM PST by narses
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