Posted on 03/18/2012 6:38:49 PM PDT by EnglishCon
Thank you for that. I will lean harder on that aspect for Genesis 2. Maybe, eventually, will re-write this one to expand and include more detail.
It is something, as I said, that pulled me back to God. Had the usual phase in my late teens where I did not believe. Was proudly (and aggressively) atheist.
I wasn’t intentionally ignoring you. You posted several links that I had to read, digest and, in a couple of cases, pray on. I thank you for the links. Pretty much killed half a day that should have been spent working, but it was worth it!
Hard science is rarely provisional, but it depends on existing knowlege. A poster upthread (courtesy pinged) is a Ph.D in semiconductors - those things may as well be magic to me by my understanding of how they work, since the only thing I know about them is n-p-n and p-n-p junctions, and that is hazy.
Sure, the whole idea of causality is having some problems at the moment (heck, it gives me a headache trying to follow the arguments), and for things you can’t see your are working through inference and inspiration more than observation, but that is no huge problem.
I read your link. If people take the time to read something I write and bother to reply, I owe them the courtesy to read what they link.
The official Church stance on evolution has, if you will forgive the pun, evolved. http://www.lastseminary.com/genesis-modern-science/Evolutionary%20Creation.pdf is a good summary of the position that
“Today, the Church’s unofficial position is an example of theistic evolution, also known as evolutionary creation, stating that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a special creation, and that the existence of God is required to explain both monogenism and the spiritual component of human origins. Moreover, the Church teaches that the process of evolution is a planned and purpose-driven natural process, actively guided by God.”
Gahh! I hate it when I hit post instead of preview!
Sorry, to continue:
Physical and biological processes are pretty well understood on the macro level now. We even know there are things we can never know - things that will forever be solely known by God.
Evolution has a mass of evidence for it. There is also a mass of evidence that it proceeds as God himself directs, even for the minor species.
Yet some things cannot be explained by evolution on it’s own. The soul, for example. Why do I have one and my cat (an extraordinarily affectionate beast) does not?
The timeline itself. 3 billion years is a long time, but simply not long enough for evolution to produce the diversity we have today without a few nudges.
Heck, life itself, that conversion of inanimate chemicals into something that eats, grows and breeds is simply impossible without God.
Creation has it’s problems too.
Extinctions, for one. We have living organisms that have been unchanged for millions of years. We have ones that simply no longer exist. Ones we have records of as having existed and simply disappeared.
As I said in the post. I have no interest in changing minds. That is not my job, or my desire. I found some interesting correllations between the Word and what we think we know.
Your thesis confuses me.
On one hand you state that you’re drawing a scientific understanding of creation from Scripture.
On the other hand, you discard what Scripture says and instead regurgitate evolutionary theory and timelines.
I sincerely don’t know what you’re trying to say.
Let me step back and ask a couple of questions. Did Adam have a father, or was he created by God and in His image from the dust? Did death exist before sin? These questions become very problematic if you don’t take Scripture at face value.
On one hand you state that you’re drawing a scientific understanding of creation from Scripture.
Other way around. Scripture clearly states, from thousands of years ago, the understanding we have of the universe now. It is phrased in a way a non-technical society can understand, but it is there.
Let me step back and ask a couple of questions. Did Adam have a father, or was he created by God and in His image from the dust?
Not done Genesis 2 yet. Working on it, and I will, again, be referencing the King James Version. Sorry if that seems a bit of a cop out at the moment, but I don’t particularly like releasing a post before it is ready.
Did death exist before sin?
It did. Why should it not? We all have our allotted term. we are told that. Everything dies in the end - even stars and rocks.
These questions become very problematic if you don’t take Scripture at face value.
I find no real problem with these. Scripture tells us the truth. The evidence of the world shows that it is right. Some people need evidence. While I admire immensely people who simply believe, I am more the proverbial guy from Missouri. “Show me.”
Now God may have pulled the biggest practical joke on us of all time. I find that something I cannot believe. He is the Way, the TRUTH and the Life. He’d not lie.
I'm interested in your reasoning from Scripture on this. In its simplest form "The wages of sin is death". So how could death exist before sin? Romans 5:12-21 also speaks of sin and death. Sin came into the world by one man. Sin was not in the world at creation. Sin came from outside the world. Sin caused death to enter the race. And both SIN and DEATH came by ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION OF GEN. 2:17.
Just curious as to why you believe death existed before sin? THere would be no reason for death.
I’ll have a go! Please note, I am terrible at remembering scripture.
Physical death has always existed. You eventually just lay your body down and move on. They wear out, even with the best care - anyone over 50 can confirm that! We are told our time - 3 score years and 10, and it is again accurate. Impressivly so for a culture that tended to die of old age in their 50s. Sure, some go over, some die earlier. The average though, with a good diet and modern medicine is around 70. (Men die a little younger - no nagged to death jokes please!)
There was a study of the body, purely on engineering principles that found the human spine will degrade to total uselessness in 200 years of use. Knees go out much sooner, about 120. Even the replacement of cells wears out over time.
Yet, we are promised eternal life, and God does not lie. That is my fixed thing here - God does not lie, he cannot.
“The wages of sin is death” to me means if you sin, don’t trust in the Lord and don’t repent, your chances of eternal life go down the tubes because you reject the freely given gift.
The body is not the person. We are admonished on that. The soul is the person. (Please, don’t ask me what a soul is, I have NO idea! That is an area where I trust the Word - I have to.)
Since sin arrived with the first person and before he died, we can’t know. Animals, so I am told, do not go to heaven. Not keen on that idea, but it is something I must accept.
The Bible does flat out tell us in several places that physical lifespans, at least for some, were not as they are now. Reports of people living 400 years, 700 years, for example. That, I must accept. It is in the book. Then again, I know people who are fit and vigorous at over 100 years old, and people who died of old age diseases in their early 20s.
Still working on this aspect - understanding the Word is a journey that is life long - but that is my take.
You wrote, “Some people need evidence.” I’m the same way.
You wrote, “God may have pulled the biggest practical joke on us of all time.” I’m not following you. What would the “joke” be? That He really did create “all this” in less than a week?
From your response, I take it that you don’t believe there was an Adam. And that there wasn’t an Eve. And that there’s no “Original Sin.” And that Scripture prophesies that the serpent’s head will be crushed by Jesus. And that God did not clothe Adam and Eve in animal skins. And that there’s consequently no need for a “Second Adam.”
Christian doctrine becomes very convoluted if you don’t accept some foundational things about creation and our place in it.
Two things to ponder as you continue going through Genesis:
1) Was Adam created with the appearance of age?
2) How much water is stored within the mantle of the earth? Is it more or less than all the water in the oceans?
People haven’t always lived a mere 70-ish years. There was a time when people lived hundreds of years.
Two questions to ponder, regarding lifespan:
1) What significant event took place the year 969-year-old Methuselah died?
2) Prior to that event, people lived hundreds of years. Following that event, people gradually came to live fewer and fewer years. Did that “event” change the environment in such a way that humans just weren’t able to live as long as before?
EnglishCon — there’s a lot in Scripture. A lot that can be missed by digging deep into secular evolutionary theories, rather than digging deep into God’s Word and creation. It really is fascinating how it all comes together to support what it plainly says.
Indeed. For example, Noah's name has a numerical value of 58, and Noah died when Abraham was 58 years old. Similarly, the numerical value of "Shem" is 340, and the Haflagah (scattering of the nations at Babel) took place 340 years after the Flood.
All human history falls within the lifespans of seven men: Adam, Methuselah, Shem, Jacob, Amram, 'Achiyyah HaShiloni, and Elijah (who is still alive).
Of course, Protestants don't get it right either.
Gotta be divisive, hm? You can't simply affirm Scripture. Nice.
Kabbalah and reincarnation???? Really???
Yeah, this Protestant refuses to "get" it, thank you very much. This does explain quite a bit about where you are coming from these many years. The Bible doesn't teach that reincarnation happens, but that a man lives once and then after wards faces judgment. The Messiah HAS already come as the suffering servant/the lamb of God of Isaiah and he WILL come again in glory as the triumphant King of Kings to set up his earthly kingdom.
For those interested in what ZC may be talking about, read http://www.tzfat-kabbalah.org/whatis.asp?p=699:
The Revelation
“From this day on, you must reveal yourself and tell the world what I have taught you” Achiya Shiloni told his student. Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov was in shock and deeply sorrowed. He was experienced in the practice of the hidden righteous and the kabbalists who acted in Europe in small groups, in great modesty. The concept of “revelation” was foreign to him and alien to the ways of the hidden kabbalists. Achiya HaShiloni revealed to his student that his soul was the reincarnation of the Jew who had lived in Tzfat in the late 16th century, whose soul had come back to earth for the purpose of revealing and being revealed. When the Baal Shem Tov heard about the origin of his soul and its special mission in the world, he accepted the task and began revealing and disseminating the teachings of Hassidism, which exposed and discovers the inner dimensions of the Kabbalah and the secrets of the Torah.
The Rise of the Soul
Thirteen years later, on the Eve of Rosh Hashanah, the Baal Shem Tov was granted a special rising of the soul, in which his soul reached the hall of the Messiah in the supreme worlds. Seeing great joy there, he asked the Messiah when he would come, the Messiah replied, “When your springs are disseminated, when your teachings and secrets are revealed to the entire world.” The story of the origin of the soul of the Baal Shem Tov in the Tzfat Jew of the 16th century and its reincarnation in the world, and the story of the rising of the soul, is told by the Baal Shem Tov himself in his letters, which were widely publicized and printed in several books
And in v. 2 the "was" = "existed" cannot be linguistically twisted to mean "became" = "the result of a process"?? Worth pondering on -- eh?
Yes. The Law of Double Reference.
Sorry for the delay in responding, first work got in the way and even I sleep sometimes! Bit tired and groggy still (no longer allowed to drink coffee, so waking is a chore some mornings!), so, once more, please forgive any formatting errors or misunderstandings.
You wrote, “God may have pulled the biggest practical joke on us of all time.” I’m not following you. What would the “joke” be? That He really did create “all this” in less than a week?
Let us say, for a second, that the universe and all that was in it were created in 6 24 hour periods, about 6000 years ago, with a rest of 24 hours before God created man. Sure, He could certainly do so. He is, after all, the Creator.
Yet why does all the evidence we can find - millions of man years of work by the most gifted minds - show everything as much, much older? Would the Lord headfake us like that? Plant false clues to lead us astray? I just can’t see that.
Sure, he has been known to be evasive from time to time - “I am who I am” springs to mind - but I can’t think of a single instance when either God himself or our Saviour lied.
“From your response, I take it that you don’t believe there was an Adam.”
No where have I said that, or indeed implied it. The fall is a fundamental part of the creed, one I believe with all my heart. I just wish to discuss that in the next chapter.
Your responses, and others, are REALLY helping with Genesis 2, showing me areas I still need to examine.
Thank you for that! Some, I honestly doubt I’ll be able to answer. No one person can comprehend everything, but the research is fascinating in its own right.
Arghh! Sorry friend, I thought I HAD replied to you! Let me do so now.
“Your entire note makes Genesis verse 1 a lie.
If Genesis verse 1 is a lie, the account of creation is a lie.”
Could you expand on this please? I THINK I know what you mean, but want to be 100% sure. I am not quite sure how my post makes Genesis 1 a lie. It points out some interesting congruences between the Word and reality as we see it.
I like your phrasing of the alternatives - by man came death or by death came man - elegant.
But, respectfully, it is not an either/or proposition to me. I firmly believe it is both. Skipping Adam for a second - he is, by definition, a special case - Where did you come from. Or I?
Not the flesh and bone part, any reasonably aware 7 year old knows that, but the part of you that IS you? The bit that both sees and can create beauty, loves without lust, and can wrap itself in the Lord like the child of a loving parent is wrapped in a blanket?
All the good bits, in other words. The bits that seperate you from the beasts of the field. Again, this is more a topic for Genesis 2, but I owe you for failing to respond to you earlier.
Sadly, you are one of the few. Search Bible: http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html
The question is, how could this be allowed without an EPA impact study? Just imagine if creation was a gov. project. Today’s gov. would have joined men with men, among other things.
The wages of sin is death. And Jesus promised eternal life. Was it eternal life only in this world? Was it that sin was death only in this world?
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