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Hatch: Obama camp will 'throw Mormon church' at Romney [opening Ldsism...not throwing tis enough]
Politico ^ | April 4, 2012 | David Catanese

Posted on 04/04/2012 1:14:44 PM PDT by Colofornian

FARMINGTON, Utah -- Sen. Orrin Hatch predicted President Obama's campaign team would use Mitt Romney's Mormon faith against him in the general election.

Speaking to a group of GOP delegates at a campaign stop Tuesday, the six-term Republican incumbent warned, "You watch, they're going to throw the Mormon church at him like you can't believe."

Asked to elaborate in an interview later, Hatch fingered campaign adviser David Axelrod and White House aide David Plouffe as the masterminds who would insert the issue into the campaign.

"Let me tell you something. The Obama people have some of the best political consultants in the country and they don't get there because they're always wonderful people. They're very tough. I have respect for them. They're very tough. I've met with Axelrod, he's the best there is in the business. Plouffe, you've got to say he's one of the best. And there is nothing they won't do," Hatch asserted.

Hatch went even as far to say he thought the duo had already played the religion card against the likely GOP nominee, but failed to point to any evidence of it.

On Monday, Romney was confronted by a Ron Paul supporter with a question about whether he agreed with a passage in the Book of Mormon that describes cursing African Americans. Clearly annoyed, Romney answered with a swift "no" and moved on.

SNIP

"You can find some pretty outlandish statements by some of our early leaders that we've all had to live with from time to time..." Hatch told the gathering of delegates in this town about 20 minutes north of Salt Lake City.

SNIP

(Excerpt) Read more at politico.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: 2012electionbias; doublestandard; inman; jeremiahwright; lds; mittromney; mormon; orrinhatch; waronreligion
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To: Yaelle
Barack wouldnt dare go there. Insulting a man’s religion is so low he’d lose voters in an instant. In fact, that is why The One is all Jesus in the Garden today.

We know he won't have to. He's got a zillion proxy attack dogs in the media to do it for him.

It's already started.

51 posted on 04/04/2012 2:48:41 PM PDT by Caipirabob (I say we take off and Newt the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...)
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To: greyfoxx39
Or is this the new method of censoring mormon comments on FR?

the new method of censoring moron comments on FR

52 posted on 04/04/2012 2:48:51 PM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: greyfoxx39

That’s ridiculous. Obama’s going after Christians and the Catholic church with a vengeance.


53 posted on 04/04/2012 2:59:45 PM PDT by jersey117 (The Stepford Media should be sued for malpractice)
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To: Yaelle

You forgot the sarcasm tag.


54 posted on 04/04/2012 3:01:48 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: jersey117
It would be great if we could dig up past ties between obama and the [new] black panthers.

Obama is as red as he ever was. Just because he throws someone or some group "under the bus" doesn't mean he genuinely doesn't agree with them anyone. He does what he has to do at the time. They understand he doesn't really mean it.

55 posted on 04/04/2012 3:02:51 PM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: jersey117

>>It would be great if we could dig up past ties
>>between obama and the [new] black panthers.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2868156/posts?page=16#16


56 posted on 04/04/2012 3:06:21 PM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Colofornian
Cults, Movements, World Religions
Sects and Satanic Cults

57 posted on 04/04/2012 3:24:19 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Colofornian

“Obama has left UCCism...and Wrightisms...Romney hasn’t left Mormonism.”

1. Obama may no longer be a member of the so-called church, but he has hosted the leader of the NBPP at the WH at least twice. (They also advocate the racist Black Liberation Theology.)

2. The Mormon so-called church corrected its race policies in 1978.


58 posted on 04/04/2012 3:43:41 PM PDT by Gil4 (Sometimes it's not low self-esteem - it's just accurate self-assessment.)
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To: Gil4

“2. The Mormon so-called church corrected its race policies in 1978.”

Actually, they didn’t. Their official scriptures still contain racist statements that they haven’t backed away from or revised. All they did in 1978 was state that blacks could become priests.


59 posted on 04/04/2012 4:08:45 PM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: Turtlepower; Gil4
“2. The Mormon so-called church corrected its race policies in 1978.”

If the text of the book of mormon was transcribed as per the fellow below...

What could have possibly provided the basis for a change in the church's century old doctrine?

Just asking...

60 posted on 04/04/2012 4:43:57 PM PDT by Caipirabob (I say we take off and Newt the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...)
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To: EagleUSA

“All the fools that say they will not vote for the opposition candidate to Obama are just giving the election to Obama....regardless of who is the Repub candidate.”

No, the GOPe, by endorsing, pushing and funding RINOmney is giving the election to Obama.
You are just willing to accept it and pretend he can win.


61 posted on 04/04/2012 5:19:07 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (I wouldn’t vote for Romney for dog catcher if he was in a three way race against Lenin and Marx!)
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To: Colofornian
Well Mr. Hatch, if you were True Christian faith church, you wouldn't have to worry about that would you?

Being a Cult,I imagine it would bother you some.

62 posted on 04/04/2012 5:34:43 PM PDT by annieokie
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

“You are just willing to accept it and pretend he can win.”

:::::::::::::::::::

Nice try at putting words in my mouth.

YOU said it. I did not. And secondly, if this country is stupid and mindless enough to give Obama a second term by not voting for the Repub candidate, it deserves everything it will get and it will be very ugly.

Tyranny does not stop by itself.


63 posted on 04/04/2012 6:29:48 PM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: Colofornian; a fool in paradise

Jeez, and I thought all this time that our Bishop candidate was mormal?!


64 posted on 04/04/2012 6:34:44 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: Colofornian

People called me crazy but I really felt something was VERY off when the Mormons poured so much money and manpower into helping pass Prop 8 in CA. Not that their help was unwelcome, but it seemed strange because A) CA is not a major Mormon stronghold and B) why would the Mormons off all people, work so hard to pass a law defining marriage as being only between ONE man and ONE woman? It’s well known that they only gave up their dogma regarding polygamy reluctantly under extreme duress from the US government, so why were they SO devoted to this fight?

I personally believe it was to “pave the way” for Romney’s run, to expose themselves to evangelicals and other committed Christians who probably had limited interaction with them, in a way that made them seem like “the good guys” and discourage any deeper inquiry into their , erm, “non-mainstream” beliefs


65 posted on 04/04/2012 6:37:38 PM PDT by Lex Gabba
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To: greyfoxx39

to be fair, isn’t that what ALL missionaries of EVERY faith do? I doubt you’d be a great evangelist if you stood up on a stump and said “My way is a great way to get into heaven, but that guy over there? His is pretty good too, and that other church down the street? They’ve got some great ideas too, totally different from my own of course, but hey, whatever works best for you...”


66 posted on 04/04/2012 6:37:47 PM PDT by Lex Gabba
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To: dead
Mormophobia! Mormophobia!!
You're mormophobic!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

67 posted on 04/04/2012 6:41:03 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: freedomlover
 
...with his face stuck in a hat.
 



"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."
---Joseph Knight's journal.


"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.
(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),
"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,
as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,
and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."


"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"
reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881
in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:
 
 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,
Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12
June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)


Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:
 
"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"
("A New Witness for Christ in America,"
Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)


"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."
---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.




68 posted on 04/04/2012 6:42:01 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Caipirabob
Imagine the book of mormon, say from "Alma" being quoted by democrats in 30 second sound bytes over a period of 3 months.

 
THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 16
 
The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.
 
 
 1 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
  2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.
  3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
  4 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
  5 And it came to pass that they did ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.
  6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the avalley which he called Lemuel.
  7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the adaughters of Ishmael to bwife; and also, my brethren took of the cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
  8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
  9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ajourney into the wilderness.
  10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.
  11 And it came to pass that we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.
  12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.
  13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place aShazer.
  14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the aRed Sea.
  15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.
  16 And we did follow the adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.
  17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.
  18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
  19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.
  20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.
  21 Now  it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.
  22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.
  23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
  24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.
  25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.
  26 And it came to pass  that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.
  27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.
  28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
  29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.
  30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the adirections which were given upon the ball.
  31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.
  32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.
  33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.
  34 And it came to pass that aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called bNahom.
  35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.
  36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to areturn again to Jerusalem.
  37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.
  38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman bstir up their hearts to canger.
  39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.


69 posted on 04/04/2012 6:46:01 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Caipirabob
You guys DID catch that it was I; Nephi that wrote the above.

Me - NEPHI!

I; Nephi was the writer of the book with my name: me, Nephi; or, as I like to say...

I, Nephi


 
THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 16
The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.
 
1 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
4 And it came to pass   I, Nephi,did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
5 And it came to pass that they did ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.
6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the avalley which he called Lemuel.
7 And it came to pass that  I, Nephi, took one of the adaughters of Ishmael to bwife; and also, my brethren took of the cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also,   I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ajourney into the wilderness.
10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.
11 And it came to pass that we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.
12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.
13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place aShazer.
14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the aRed Sea.
15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.
16 And we did follow the adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.
17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.
18 And it came to pass that as  I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.
20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.
21 Now it came to pass that  I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.
22 And it came to pass that  I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.
23 And it came to pass that  I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.
25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.
26 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.
27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.
28 And it came to pass that  I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.
30 And it came to pass that  I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the adirections which were given upon the ball.
31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.
32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.
33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.
34 And it came to pass that aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called bNahom.
35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.
36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to areturn again to Jerusalem.
37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.
38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman bstir up their hearts to canger.
39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.


70 posted on 04/04/2012 6:48:22 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Caipirabob
Now that the important preliminaries are out of the way, I; Nephi, can explain to y'all just what I had in mind to write to you about....




THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 16
The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.
1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
4 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
5 And it came to pass that they did ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.
6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the avalley which he called Lemuel.
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the adaughters of Ishmael to bwife; and also, my brethren took of the cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
9 And it came to passthat the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ajourney into the wilderness.
10 And it came to passthat as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.
11 And it came to passthat we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.
12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.
13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place aShazer.
14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the aRed Sea.
15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.
16 And we did follow the adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.
17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.
18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.
20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.
21 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.
22 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.
23 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.
25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.
26 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.
27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.
28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.
30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the adirections which were given upon the ball.
31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.
32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.
33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.
34 And it came to pass that aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called bNahom.
35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.
36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to areturn again to Jerusalem.
37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.
38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman bstir up their hearts to canger.
39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.
 

71 posted on 04/04/2012 6:50:34 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: jersey117
Obama’s going after Christians and the Catholic church with a vengeance.

HMMMmmm...


Orson Pratt proclaimed:
 
 "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"
 
 (The Seer, p. 255).

72 posted on 04/04/2012 6:53:12 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Gil4
2. The Mormon so-called church corrected its race policies in 1978.

The LDS 'scripture'as NOT changed.

Also; you'd be VERY hard pressed to find ANY MORMON that would DISAGREE with what a PROPHET has said.





"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.



Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'



August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)



1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."



We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.



Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).



When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."



When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)





Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

 

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

 

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

 



 

73 posted on 04/04/2012 6:55:50 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: EagleUSA
Tyranny does not stop by itself.

Neither will HERESY.

74 posted on 04/04/2012 6:57:27 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: EagleUSA

“YOU said it. I did not. And secondly, if this country is stupid and mindless enough to give Obama a second term by not voting for the Repub candidate, it deserves everything it will get and it will be very ugly.”

If Republicans are stupid enough to run a lame horse, they deserves everything the country will get - and it will be ugly.


75 posted on 04/04/2012 7:50:35 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (I wouldn’t vote for Romney for dog catcher if he was in a three way race against Lenin and Marx!)
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To: Colofornian
Throw it back in Barry's face. Since Mitt is being asked his position on inter-racial marriage (as it applies to his faith) and GOP candidates were asked about creationism, ask Barack Hussein Obama the following questions:

1) Was it wrong for Mohammed to marry a six-year old?

2) You call yourself a Christian. Do you believe that Jesus physically rose from the dead and walked among men?

76 posted on 04/04/2012 8:38:52 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (Barack Obama continued to sponsor Jeremiah Wright after he said "G.D. AMERIKKA!"Where's the outrage?)
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To: Caipirabob

The Book of Mormon has had plenty of corrections, although they might not have fixed those parts (yet.)

“What could have possibly provided the basis for a change in the church’s century old doctrine?”

It became inconvenient? Don’t ask me, but they did make some sustantial changes on race at that time.

Some of the Mormon teachings are pretty strange, but I think there is also a large percentage that don’t care about the details and like the family atmosphere.


77 posted on 04/04/2012 9:00:06 PM PDT by Gil4 (Sometimes it's not low self-esteem - it's just accurate self-assessment.)
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To: Lex Gabba; All
People called me crazy but I really felt something was VERY off when the Mormons poured so much money and manpower into helping pass Prop 8 in CA. Not that their help was unwelcome, but it seemed strange because A) CA is not a major Mormon stronghold and B) why would the Mormons off all people, work so hard to pass a law defining marriage as being only between ONE man and ONE woman? It’s well known that they only gave up their dogma regarding polygamy reluctantly under extreme duress from the US government, so why were they SO devoted to this fight? I personally believe it was to “pave the way” for Romney’s run, to expose themselves to evangelicals and other committed Christians who probably had limited interaction with them, in a way that made them seem like “the good guys” and discourage any deeper inquiry into their , erm, “non-mainstream” beliefs

#1...Prop 8 wasn't the only defense of marriage ballot proposal in CA that Mormons entered into the pix on...There was another one in 2000...so...no I don't believe Romney was the catalyst for either ballot proposal in CA.

#2...You still, tho, asked a relevant Q...this one: why would the Mormons off all people, work so hard to pass a law defining marriage as being only between ONE man and ONE woman? It’s well known that they only gave up their dogma regarding polygamy reluctantly under extreme duress from the US government, so why were they SO devoted to this fight?

Why get involved in TWO CA ballot proposals defending one man, one woman marriage? Because, Lds like to conceal their past history (militating vs. one-woman marriage) by current PR campaigns...hence, their about-face of monogamy.

Sorry...Mormons...defending monogamy in just 1 out of 50 states...and only for two years out of about a dozen where homosexuals have attacked traditional monogamy...doesn't make Lds leading proponents of defending marriage.

78 posted on 04/04/2012 9:46:51 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Colofornian

Ask yourselves if you would rather have a Mormon or a Muslim as President of the United States. The rubber meets the road here.


79 posted on 04/04/2012 9:51:12 PM PDT by Irish Eyes
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To: Lex Gabba; greyfoxx39
[To greyfoxx39]: ...to be fair, isn’t that what ALL missionaries of EVERY faith do? I doubt you’d be a great evangelist if you stood up on a stump and said “My way is a great way to get into heaven, but that guy over there? His is pretty good too, and that other church down the street? They’ve got some great ideas too, totally different from my own...

You're responding to Greyfoxx's line: ...denigrate ALL non-mormon beliefs by claiming that theirs is the "one TRUE church" and the only way to salvation...

Allow me to make a few distinctions:

#1: Most Christian denominations don't denigrate most teachings of other denominations...yes, there's always some teachings that are targeted...but we don't do what Mormons do: Label 100% of Christian creeds as an "abomination" to God.

NO matter what denominations we are talking about, they all agree on the historic Christian creeds...and actually, even the Apostles Creed really doesn't disagree with Mormon doctrine...yet what did the entities that appeared to Joseph Smith call it and EVERY OTHER Christian creed? (Answer: An "abomination.")

I tell you what...if two unnamed entities appeared to you or me (like they did Joseph Smith)...and labeled 100% of Christian creeds as an "abomination," we could readily guess who these entities represented.

#2: Even when Christian missionaries have perhaps spoken negatively of other beliefs outside of their church body, more often than not, these are either...
...(a) their own opinions
-- or, they can cite specific Biblical "scripture" which counters those beliefs.

The opinions may not go further than the person speaking; and if they are citing the Bible, it's the Bible that may critique a given belief...not the missionary himself/herself.

Compare that to Lds: Mormons have used the Lds "first vision" account for 175 years to denigrate all Christians. This isn't an opinion. In the mid-1870s, Mormons decided to call that "first vision" Mormon "scripture." Hence, this isn't a mere "opinion" -- it's supposedly the Mormon gods' "revelation"...and that includes the Mormon accusation that ALL Christian professing believers are "corrupt"...[see Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History...verses 18-19]

And these denigrations directly contradict the Bible.

For example, Lds say the Christian church totally apostatized. Yet the apostle Paul said that God would receive glory in Christ THRU the church forever & ever! That was a prophesy by Paul -- Ephesians 3:21. How can BOTH be true? Mormons either have to label the apostle Paul a liar, or claim their general authorities who have labeled all us Christians "apostates" a liar. (Guess who they choose? Guess which "scripture" of theirs get cast on the lowest rung? -- The Bible)

80 posted on 04/04/2012 10:05:37 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: ETL; Turtlepower
Also, some of us seem to have a knack for compiling the evidence as to who and what Obama is in a manner which can be easily passed along.

By all means...shine any & all lights on the dark corners of Obama. I favor that. [Not enough Obama exposers as there is]

You see...tho...one of the reasons I choose other venues to convey content on Islam is because I don't see a lot of Muslims hangin' 'round FR. They just have ne'er been here in my yrs of posting.

All speakers know they need to customize their message to an audience.

So as you continue to convey stuff re: obama...who (on FR) are you trying to convince? We know conservative Lds hang around FR...some as FREEPERs; some as lurkers. There's also plenty of Romneybots on the loose on FR...including some "latter-primary day converts"...

Do you think there's potential Obama voters on FR who need to be convinced not to support zero? Who are you targeting with your posts?

81 posted on 04/04/2012 10:15:45 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Irish Eyes; All
Ask yourselves if you would rather have a Mormon or a Muslim as President of the United States. The rubber meets the road here.

You've got some bad assumptions here...

First of all...Obama had some Muslim primers as a kid...now prove (don't assume) that Obama is a Muslim.

I also have absolutely no doubt that Obama caters to Muslims. (Quite prove-able)...But do us a favor: Please prove Obama IS a Muslim. C'mon. Prove it. Don't just cast out gossip and make us conservatives look bad to the rest of the world -- that we don't ever back up what we say with documentation. Prove it. Stop being a gossip-monger. Prove it.

Second bad assumption: You think this is a two-person race...

Are most POTUS races two-person races? (Yup)
Are a lot of sports two-team contests? (Yup)
Is that the way 2012 POTUS race is sizing up to be? (Nope...it's sizing up to be a ONE-man race)

WHY do I say that? I explain this in a LOT more detail below...but if you want to know in a nutshell, here it is: (Write it down; or commit it to memory)...

The fact is...IF Romney is nominated...that means we'll have TWO liberal candidates running for POTUS.

Sorry...but we DON'T have enough LIBERAL voters in this country to support TWO liberal candidates!!!! Comprende????

If you think this is going to be one of those 40-something% to 40-something percent races...think again!!! Because, in order for that to happen, it would mean that we would need about 85-90% of all voters to vote liberal & vote socialist in this election!!!!!!

What? You think that's going to happen??? BAD ASSUMPTION!!!

(Keep readin' if you're interested in the 'details'):

If I was a forecaster -- and if I told you now that...
...one candidate would get 46% of the vote;
...another candidate would get 32%-33% of the vote;
...a protest candidate of some sort would get 13% of the vote;
...and the minority party candidates (green party, etc.) would get 8-9% of the vote...
...does that sound like a two-person race to you?

Sports Analogies to explain this:

Some sports fans who didn't have a dog in the hunt were pullin' for both Louisville & then Kansas to upset Kentucky in the NCAA basketball tourney...But neither of those teams had the offense to pull past Kentucky. Still, those fans wanted to "root" for the underdog. Their rooting didn't change a thing. It didn't make the games any closer. The underdogs still lost by significant margins.

Even those who weren't "botfans" of either Louisville or Kansas could have urged as many people as possible to "root on" these underdogs...No matter...

The analogy is simple: If Romney + a "protest" candidate still get less than Obama, it really won't matter who you voted for [romney or the protest candidate]. Why? Because they are BOTH statistical losers!!!

Not only is romney an atrocious candidate, but his racist background with the Mormon church is THE worst choice to match up vs. Obama...and don't assume that by the time the MSM & Obama dems get done with Romney expose' after expose' that Romney will be a viable candidate by the end of October.

(I firmly believe the polls then will bear that out)

It's really not that Obama is like some unbeatable Olympic competitor...I don't think he can capture more than 46% of the vote...But if you reviewed a lot of Olympic events...say speed skating...or some track events...there's times when the coaches put a competitor in there that's really not so competitive vs. the front-runner.

That's what we have in a non-viable candidate like Romney.

You -- or a few other FREEPERs "rooting" for Romney with your singular votes won't get Romney into even capturing 1/3rd of the popular vote. If I had to guess right now...
...Romney would get 'round 32%...perhaps some tenths over that...
...a third-party "protest" candidate (not sure who) may draw 13%...[Let's face it, do you REALLY expect 90%+ of the country would vote for A liberal???]
...Obama -- 46%
...Minority-party candidates (green party, etc.) would split the other 8-9%

If Romney won't even be able to capture 1/3rd of the nation's vote, how can you or others blame some conservatives who won't vote for him???

What do I base some of these figures on?

(a) Ya gotta understand that RIGHT NOW, the GoP ONLY has 29% of all registered voters...
...& almost half of them are NOT Romney supporters...
...another probable 25-30% of them won't vote for Romney no matter what...[And most of these won't vote for Obama, either]

That means that only about 1 in 5 registered voters will vote for Romney -- as Republicans.

(b) Most Dems aren't going to vote for Romney...
(c) Six to Nine % of all registered voters (who aren't Republicans) would rather support a green party or constitutional party candidate or some small party...

(d) What segment of the registered-voter pie does that leave? Independents, who are about 1/3rd of all registered voters...All Obama would need to do is to capture about 42% of Independent voters, and he has that 46% of the vote I mentioned above.

So you think that Romney -- after the MSM & Dems get done with him -- will be able to grab more than a quarter of registered Independents? (I don't think so)

And even if he could, getting 1/3rd of the Independents would probably only give him 35-36% of the overall vote; getting 1/2 of the Independents would probably only give him 41-42% of the vote...

He won't win.

So why waste your vote
and your reputation
and your FREEPER credibility
being his personal apologist????

82 posted on 04/04/2012 11:05:03 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Colofornian
Do you think there's potential Obama voters on FR who need to be convinced not to support zero? Who are you targeting with your posts?

I'm providing potent and convenient ammo for anyone who needs it to convince their friends, acquaintances or relatives as to the communist nature of BHO. ie, help them 'make the case'. Also, and perhaps more importantly, I'm providing damning evidence for the Useful Idiot libs and other assorted know-nothings (Mainstream Media, uninformed public school or college "educators") that are surely checking out these threads as to the same. Much of my material "pros" like Hannity and Limbaugh either don't know or don't get into enough. For example, the "Black Liberation" connection between Obama's "reverend" Wright and Bill Ayers's Weather Underground, also the New Black Panther Party. All advocate(d) communist-revolutionary "Black Liberation". Wright of course does so through his phony-baloney 'church' via James Cone's communist Black Liberation Theology.

There are so many things they never get into, most likely because they don't know themselves, such as the collaboration between the Black Liberation Army and the Weather Underground. I've never heard that talked about in any of the popular media. See my FR Home/Bio page for much more on that (Brinks triple murder, robbery, etc). In fact, Hannity very rarely even described the Weather Underground as being Communist. He only referred to them as "domestic terrorists". Bad enough, but it misses a major component of what was going on then and today.

Another example would be the Communist Party USA's open support for Obama and his "Change", "Transformation" agenda. I was the one who went into their site and dug those pieces up. Mark Levin spoke about one of them on his radio program within an hour of my first posting it as a thread here (a year or so ago). However, he gave the credit to American Thinker who had posted in on their site roughly half an hour after my (FR) posting. I knew I was their source because Levin used an identical comment that was added to my title, precisely, "Communist Party loves Obama". Also, the CPUSA piece was over a month old at the time and somewhat 'buried' on their site by the time. Yet they and he discussed it within a mere hour of my posting it here? A highly unlikely "coincidence". However, the mention of the identical personal comment nailed it.

Among other examples of things not seen or heard many other places is Farrakhan's sentiments for Castro and Mao. The Nation of Islam is another "Black Liberation" communist front movement like Wright's phony church. Both are entirely Communist-concocted 'religions'.

In short, education and wide exposure are our best weapons. Many Obama supporters, and/or Democrats in general, simply aren't aware of these things. The more the info is posted, the more likely it is that others will pick it up and share it, regardless of who gets the credit. I'm much more concerned that it gets out rather getting credit for it. No one knows who I am anyway. I apologize for the rambling. It's past 4AM here in NY. Can't sleep due to medication I'm taking for a badly infected tooth. In any case, I hope I at least made SOME sense. :)

83 posted on 04/05/2012 1:33:38 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: ETL

I repeat...why not start your OWN thread on Obama? FReepers don’t visit the Religion Forum for the kind of posts you are making. You are wasting your time here.


84 posted on 04/05/2012 5:33:55 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Zimmerman-Martin liberal press indictment: Maybe the new KKK robes are black.)
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To: Gil4
Thanks for the response. I never really considered the issue of faith in non-support of romney. I wouldn't support him simply because he's an open socialist posing as a republican. The mechanism behind his wealth is irrelevant, he imposed socialist policy once in power.

The research of the faith came up because my son and I felt it necessary to learn more of a group of people we have occasional interaction with and now might control the White House.

The GOP wants to lose this election. It's openly obvious now and we must resist, kicking and screaming to no end.

We cannot permit them to nominate romney or we are over.

Romney will be destroyed via hundreds of 30 second sound bytes on sections from the book of mormon. Doesn't matter what we know, it's the people who didn't research and never will who will be lead by these attacks to form a negative opinion.

Those who do research will find little to counter the attacks. Much of the attacks will be shown to be based on fact.

It will be the end of romney's campaign. The institutionalized discrimination of the church is too much, too recent, too incorporated into the doctrine to be hidden and completely, totally indefensible.

85 posted on 04/05/2012 5:40:06 AM PDT by Caipirabob (I say we take off and Newt the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...)
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To: Gil4; Elsie; Colofornian
I will try an experiment. I have a friend I call "my professor" of nearly 10 years who's recently told me he's black. After I asked him "When did that happen?" he said he always considered himself black. His black skin should have been a clue for me but his name is Latino so whatever. We'll have to explore the issue in the future over several bottles of rum, if we ever get it.

Anyways, I'm absolutely certain he's not familiar with this doctrine and what it says. I want to see how he reacts when I ask him to read it (and he will.) Then I want to hear what he thinks about romney after that or the book of mormon.

He's a genius and no one I know who has met him disputes that. If anyone will dig into an issue and uncover facts, he will. We can ask him to be our "barometer" for the coming storm this fall. Will it be springtime for romney or will he get blown away?

I'll contact my pal within the week, if not I know I'll see him in the next 10 days so maybe I'll put together a vanity post on it.

He deserves to know either way.

86 posted on 04/05/2012 6:06:32 AM PDT by Caipirabob (I say we take off and Newt the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...)
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To: greyfoxx39
I repeat...why not start your OWN thread on Obama? FReepers don’t visit the Religion Forum for the kind of posts you are making.

To have a discussion of Obama and religion and NOT get into his communist "Black Liberation Theology" is about as stupid and time wasting as it gets.

87 posted on 04/05/2012 6:12:13 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: greyfoxx39

In other words, the door should be slammed in his face if he even TRIES to talk about Romney’s or any other GOP candidate’s religion. This is why I provided some key details about it. Stuff you won’t read or hear about even from Hannity or Rush.


88 posted on 04/05/2012 6:18:53 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Caipirabob

“Where is the hope? I meet millions of people who feel demoralized by the decay around us. The hope that each of us has is not in who governs us, or what laws we pass, or what great things we do as a nation. Our hope is in the power of God working through the hearts of people. And that’s where our hope is in this country. And that’s where our hope is in life.”

—Charles Colson


89 posted on 04/05/2012 6:18:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Caipirabob; Gil4; Elsie
I will try an experiment. I have a friend I call "my professor" of nearly 10 years who's recently told me he's black. After I asked him "When did that happen?" he said he always considered himself black. His black skin should have been a clue for me but his name is Latino so whatever. We'll have to explore the issue in the future over several bottles of rum, if we ever get it. Anyways, I'm absolutely certain he's not familiar with this doctrine and what it says. I want to see how he reacts when I ask him to read it (and he will.) Then I want to hear what he thinks about romney after that or the book of mormon. He's a genius and no one I know who has met him disputes that. If anyone will dig into an issue and uncover facts, he will. We can ask him to be our "barometer" for the coming storm this fall. Will it be springtime for romney or will he get blown away? I'll contact my pal within the week, if not I know I'll see him in the next 10 days so maybe I'll put together a vanity post on it. He deserves to know either way.

Good experiment...

Here's the verses you need to show him:

Note: The Mormon church has only changed one Mormon "scriptural" verse on race since its 1978 "change."

No other of its racist verses have been altered or repudiated. They still stand "on the books" as "sacred" representations of the view of the Mormon gods. To review these rather disturbing Mormon "scriptures," click on these three links:
* Mormon Racism as doctrine, not merely folklore or tradition
* "Renounce and Repudiate": Will Republicans Hold Romney to Obama Standard?
* Pro-Rick Santorum pastor slams Mitt Romney’s religion [post #55 by Tennessee Nana...a post, btw, where TN challenges a Mormon about these verses -- but the Mormon doesn't respond]

Obviously many of these verses overlap within these three sources...but you can cut & paste them together...Also...on the 2nd link above, go directly to the original article...as it was excerpted for a 300-word count...and some of the words were elipsed...

90 posted on 04/05/2012 7:01:27 AM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: ETL; greyfoxx39; EagleUSA; Gil4; Irish Eyes; jersey117; lurk; colorcountry; Elsie; FastCoyote; ...
To have a discussion of Obama and religion and NOT get into his communist "Black Liberation Theology" is about as stupid and time wasting as it gets.

You know, ETL, what surprises me re: this thread is what I don't see among FREEPER responses to your posts!

Please allow me to take the time to explain:

Here in these various thread posts, you discuss Obama and...
* Rev. Wright/black liberation theology (post #12)
* Rev. Wright/black liberation theology (post #13)
* Rev. Wright/black liberation theology (post #14)
* United Church of Christ church Obama attended -- and its black liberation theology (post #25)
* Your comment that "Obama is not a Muslim, or a (legit) Christian." (Post #36) -- tho you also pointed out on another thread yesterday re: Obama's early Islamic influence Obama's early Islamic influence [post #7]
* Your response to Lurk's comment "if Obama’s "religious" connections don’t get the same scrutiny, it’s not pertinent." (post #38)
* Rev. Wright/black liberation theology (post #87)
* A generic comment about discussing a GOP candidate's religion (post #88)

Now why do I highlight this? Because REPEATEDLY -- as in THOUSANDS of FREEPER posts -- we "Flying Inmans" have seen something along the following...which I'll categorize into three FREEPER groups:

#1 There's the "laissez-faire" FREEPER approach to Romney's Mormonism: "I don't care about Romney's religion...It doesn't bother me what Romney's religion is...it's his [X, Y, Z] in his track record, etc."

#2 There's also the FREEPER "scolders": "Thou shalt NOT focus on religion. I'm not electing a pastor-in-chief. Stick to politics. Stick to the economy (like poster Night Hides Not says in post #15] Let's keep religion hermetically sealed!"

#3 And then there's those who up the ante and just start accusing as the self-appointed "bigot patrol" -- and they toss out the "b" labels like a good liberal tactic...[Who cares about the content discussion]

IOW...we see from the laissez-faire FREEPERs mentioned above all kinds of caveats and qualifiers; from the scolders plenty of chastisement over our refusal to "properly" "compartmentalize" worldviews; and from the "bigot" accusers all kinds of zealous intensified presentations of the "thou shalt not critique religious expressions" -- all as they critique our religious expressions! [Go figure that self-refutation out!]

My Question to THEM??? Where are these posters either on this thread -- or all of the other dozen or so threads you've dumped this same info within an 8-day span [perhaps more threads going back further???]??? [For those so interested to see all the threads ETL is putting this info out...look below the asterisk line] I'd like to know: Where are they in responding to your posts?

My questions to them -- not to you ETL:

* If Obama's big govt social utopia and social issues and driving-the-economy into the ground is where we need to put the emphasis, why no lectures that YOU, ETL, should stick to non-religious issues re: Obama?
* If we're supposed to compartmentalize all candidates' religion and religious leanings -- including Obama's -- as the compartmentalizers have scolded us over & over & over again, where are they to properly scold you into attempted silence?
* Finally, where's the self-appointed "bigot patrol" when you need them? How many times have they hurled that word at people on these threads...for dare mentioning Romney's other-worldly worldviews! Why haven't they entered this thread to call you a "bigot," ETL? [Not that I think you're one]

You see...what surprises me is the sheer lack of consistency conservatives have on these issues. If these are such key "convictions," they should apply them evenly across the board -- whatever stripe the candidate is...

But they don't...which tells me they are dual-faced...hypocritical.

Also...wonderin' why other posters on this thread -- haven't come under fire yet for bringing up Obama's religious ties...
Like...
...EagleUSA & Irish Eyes tries to link Obama & Islam (posts #3, #79)
...Poster Jersey117 astutely realizing that "That means obama’s “Muslim faith” and his 20 years of black liberation theolgy indoctrination are on the table." (post #47)
...Or Gil4 also mentioning Obama's black liberation theology (post #58)

*******************************

ETL 'making the rounds' commenting upon Obama's past "religious ties" in the past week or so:
* Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comment [post #11]
* Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comment [post #15]
*Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comments [posts #16 and #17]
*Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comments [posts #24 and #27]
*Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comment [post #86]
*Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comment [post #7]
*Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comment [post #5]
*Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comment [post #75]
*Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comment [post #12]
*Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comments [posts #16 and #20]
*Black Liberation Theology/Rev. Wright comment [post #37]

So, ETL...in light of the above...[both your series of postings AND my comments about the laissez-faire/scolders/& bigot patrol]...gotta ask you: Exactly how many FREEPERs have called you on the carpet for discussing Obama's past religious ties?

WE as commentators on Mormonism (Flying Inmans) get called on the carpet regularly for discussing a candidate's religion. Surely, you have repeatedly...right? [Or do I hold out too much hope for the non-hypocrisy of hundreds of FREEPERS?]

91 posted on 04/05/2012 8:01:03 AM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Colofornian

Are you feeling ok? You went through an awful lot of trouble to basically say nothing. Nothing sensible that is.


92 posted on 04/05/2012 8:27:49 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: EagleUSA
If Obama does that, his Muslim faith is fair game.

Obama doesn't claim to be a muslim, he "claims" Christianity, I personally believe he's a worshiper of self. Bishop Romney, on the other hand embraces every aspect of his cult and denies nothing.

93 posted on 04/05/2012 8:52:07 AM PDT by Graybeard58 (Haggai 1, V6.. and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes. (My plight))
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To: Colofornian
Your number 82 is the best explanation of the way things are, not the way we want them to be, that I've seen yet. With Romney as the "R" candidate, Obama's reelection is inevitable. No ifs ands or buts.
94 posted on 04/05/2012 9:21:28 AM PDT by Graybeard58 (Haggai 1, V6.. and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes. (My plight))
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To: Colofornian

The media’s been taking it easy on Romney, hoping he’ll get the nomination. Once he gets the nomination, just wait for all the stories about “magic underwear” and such to come out. Romney will be a laughingstock by election day.


95 posted on 04/05/2012 9:24:54 AM PDT by kevao
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To: Colofornian

Thanks, I’ll forward that to him. I’m pretty sure he’ll just read the whole thing. He’s one of those guys. Eats books like candy and could probably do the whole thing over a weekend.


96 posted on 04/05/2012 10:06:09 AM PDT by Caipirabob (I say we take off and Newt the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...)
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To: irishjuggler

Mr. Romney, is it boxers, briefs, or magic underwear?


97 posted on 04/05/2012 10:09:51 AM PDT by kevao
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To: Colofornian

I don’t view Mormonism as a religion of hate. Black Liberation Theology teaches to hate whites and jews. Islam just wants to kill us all.


98 posted on 04/05/2012 10:24:06 AM PDT by jersey117 (The Stepford Media should be sued for malpractice)
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To: jersey117
I don’t view Mormonism as a religion of hate

To accuse ALL Christians in the world as being "apostates" -- as BOTH Mormonism & Islam do [Muslims call Christians "infidels"] -- is the equivalent of the attempt to "eliminate" any & all Christians under the umbrella of the Protestant, Catholic & Orthodox churches.

It's worldwide "scorched earth" religio-politics.

It's an attempt to dig the biggest spiritual graveyard in the world & place ALL of Christianity there as spiritually dead.

What you don't seem to comprehend -- on Easter week of all weeks -- is that Muslims who kill Christians...those in Christ will rise & live again.

But Mormonism, upon keeping people entangled in spiritual death on this earth, wind up never living...for eternity. That's what the bible also calls the "second death."

Jesus clearly said NOT to fear those who can kill the body; but to fear the One who has the power to place somebody in hell.

Those who only respect the body-slaughterers -- and fail to respect what the Creator of that body says about where our ultimate cultural priorities are to be -- wind up ALWAYS putting physical considerations...usually their own...first.

99 posted on 04/05/2012 10:55:35 AM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Caipirabob

There is no denying that the Mormon teaching on race is and will be a problem for Romney.

Here is a good summary from catholic.com:

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/whats-the-real-story-on-mormon-beliefs-and-race

This is what it said about the 1978 developments:


Dated June 8, 1978, and released the following day, President Kimball’s “Official Declaration—2” (as it is now called in the Mormon scripture Doctrine and Covenants) came after “extended meditation and prayer in the sacred rooms of the holy temple.” He presented the changed doctrine to his counselors, the Twelve Apostles, and other leaders, who approved it unanimously. The day has come, he said, when the Lord now grants to “every faithful, worthy man in the Church . . . the holy priesthood . . . [and] the blessings of the temple.” The declaration was presented to the general membership and ratified pro forma on September 30, 1978.

Though this opening of the priesthood to all races moved the Mormon Church into a less racist position regarding its practice, Mormon teaching remained unaltered. The new “revelation” did not change the previous Mormon teaching that people are born black because of their sins in the pre-existence.


That definitely clarified some things for me. I’m still having a hard time seeing how “people are born black because of their sins in the pre-existence” is more offensive than “white people are the devil...right now,” although both are at least somewhat offensive.


100 posted on 04/05/2012 2:05:09 PM PDT by Gil4 (Sometimes it's not low self-esteem - it's just accurate self-assessment.)
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