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To: JPII Be Not Afraid
I was gonna leave it alone, but... you've compelled me. Luther (and Calvin and Zwingli, et al) were not wrong. And they didn't destroy unity - there is ample evidence in the scriptures themselves that 'Christian unity' is a nice, but unachievable goal (start with Paul and Barnabus).

The crime of the Reformers was in pointing out the errors of the church. Each one of them did so knowing that they risked their lives to espouse their opinions against an unwilling-to-listen church, which ruled almost by compulsion (not unlike Islam of today). These men didn't act on a whim or out of revenge or for any other reason than simply wanting to fix an inherent problem. They were highly educated (by the church!), they wrote multiple volumes on the problems they saw, they tried to fix the church from within. Finally, an intransigent church forced them to break away. These were men of supreme courage and devotion. We would all do well to know the scriptures as they did, and to use that knowledge in the education of others.

What the Reformers did was twofold:
1. Provided necessary correction where error existed (and still does);
2. Brought God's Word to the masses, and thus brought choice... and, in truth, accountability as well.

I ignored this topic earlier. You can call what they did as a break in Christian Unity, but I don't -- it resulted in spreading the gospel to the world.

Yes, the RCC stands on its own.... but it stands apart from the foundational Biblical truths of God's Word which are hidden behind so-called traditions. Heck, I even have to take issue with the use of that very word. We 'traditionally' celebrate Christmas on December 25th. Scripture doesn't indicate this, but doctrinally, it is meaningless. But having important doctrines that flat-out contradict scripture or make up things not present isn't 'tradition'. There's another word for it. Heresy.

80 posted on 04/16/2012 2:00:24 PM PDT by alancarp (Liberals are all for shared pain... until they're included in the pain group.)
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To: alancarp
"Luther (and Calvin and Zwingli, et al) were not wrong."

Are you contending that they were infallible and that they agreed 100% with each other on every point of doctrine and dogma?

"Brought God's Word to the masses, and thus brought choice... and, in truth, accountability as well."

How did they bring God's Word to the masses differently that the Church had done or did they simply ride the crest of the printing press and relative middle class literacy. Across Europe literacy among men in the year 1500 was less than 10% and was nearly zero for women. By 1750 that number had risen to 30% among men and less than 5% among women. Very few instances are recorded where literacy in a vernacular was not preceded by a literacy in Latin.

How do you conclude that "choice" is a desirable thing when there is no innate ability to determine a right choice from a wrong choice? Or, for that matter, if that innate ability exists, that it only exists in Protestants and not in similarly educated and pious Catholics?

"Yes, the RCC stands on its own.... but it stands apart from the foundational Biblical truths of God's Word which are hidden behind so-called traditions. Heck, I even have to take issue with the use of that very word."

You would then be taking issue with Scripture, not with Catholics or the Catholic Church. The word that gives you trouble is Paradosis. In the New Testament context, translated into English simply as "tradition" is a passing on of oral teachings. It is used both positively (3 times) and negatively (5 times).

What we can take from this is that "Tradition" itself is not categorically condemned or endorsed, but rather what the content and origin of that Tradition is what determines its acceptance or rejection. This is always hotly contested in these threads because the categorical condemnation of Tradition is essential to Sola Scriptura Protestantism.

It is best, in this case to familiarize yourself with another Greek word; "kerygma" which is the proclamation of a religious truth. This is the type of paradosis taught by the Catholic Church.

Peace be to you.

83 posted on 04/16/2012 2:34:32 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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