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On Fifteen Years a Catholic ("How can you join a church that tells you how to think?")
Catholic World Report ^ | April 20, 2012 | Carl Olson

Posted on 04/22/2012 11:23:32 AM PDT by NYer


(Photo courtesy of Fr. Lawrence Lew, O.P.)

“How can you join a church that tells you how to think?”

The question, uttered with equal parts puzzlement and anger, surprised me. In hindsight, it should have been about as surprising as an afternoon drizzle here in Eugene, Oregon, in early spring. The question—almost an accusation, really—was made one early spring day over fifteen years ago. It was said in the middle of an intense discussion about the reasons why my wife and I, both graduates of Evangelical Bible colleges, had decided to become Catholic.

I’m happy to note, all these years later, that I have a good and healthy relationship with the man who made the remark. We both uttered strong words that day, but time and some further conversations—more calm and measured in nature—have brought peace, if not perfect understanding.

I’ve sometimes joked, in recounting the full story to close friends, that I came up with the perfect retort several hours later: “At least I’m entering a Church that knows what the word ‘think’ means!” It would have been a low blow, but it touches on two issues that continue to resonate with me, now fifteen years a Catholic, nearly every day in some way or another.

The Mindless Scandal

The first is the intellectual life. The Fundamentalism of my youth was, in sum, anti-intellectual; it looked with caution, even fearful disdain, on certain aspects of modern science, technology, and academic study. But it wasn’t because we were Luddites or held a principled position against electricity, computers, or space exploration. The concern was essentially spiritual in nature; the guiding concern was that televisions, radios, “boom boxes” (remember?), and movies were potential tools for conveying messages—often subliminal in nature—contrary to a godly, Christian life. The general instinct was, in fact, actually sound. Only the creators of “Jersey Shore” can deny the power and influence of popular culture, and then only with a smirk. But the permeating fear was rarely controlled, critiqued, and concentrated through rigorous thought and study. It was reactionary and highly subjective, and so it became a sort of rogue agent, undermining the most innocent activities: reading the Chronicles of Narnia, listening to any “non-Christian” music, or studying art or literature not including any overt references to “Jesus” and “the Gospel”.  

My time in Bible college proved helpful in many ways, as several of my professors were certainly not fearful of going outside the box, even—gasp!—assigning books by Flannery O’Connor and Gerard Manley Hopkins (there was also some reading of Augustine, but in an extremely abridged form). But for every question answered, others sprung up like dandelions, multiplying with maddening surety. When I read Mark Noll’s controversial bestseller, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind (Eerdmans, 1994), I was confirmed in many of the intuitions and thoughts I had mulled and culled over the years. Noll opened his book with this withering shot of lightning: “The scandal of the evangelical mind is that there is not much of an evangelical mind.” Readers can disagree on the level of hyperbole used; Noll, a dedicated Evangelical scholar, seemed dead serious in his assertion. “For a Christian”, he wrote, “the most important consideration is not pragmatic results, or even the weight of history, but the truth.” These and other statements rang true. I had become convinced, at a relatively early age, that if something is true and good, it must be of God.

The Need for Authority

Of course, how did I know what was “true and good”? Enter the second issue: authority. I won’t regale readers about the details of my struggle with sola scriptura. (Readers can catch a few of them in my 1998 account our journey into the Church.) Instead, I’ll skip to something I wrote in February 1996, from a list of “several points of consideration” I put down regarding the claims of the Catholic Church. “I have become increasingly convinced”, I wrote, “that the idea of sola scriptura is in the end untenable … Again, this does not render judgment on the inspiration or infallibility of Scripture, it just moves the question to a different arena—that of authority.”

Nearly every non-Catholic adult who chooses to become Catholic will admit, or least should admit, the centrality of the matter of authority. As a Fundamentalist, I had been fed the standard, Jack Chick-ean version of Catholic authority: bloody, despotic, dishonest, power-driven, and so forth. The hike from there to looking squarely and honestly at authority in the Catholic Church was lengthy, but one key mile post was studying St. Paul’s description in his first letter to Timothy of “the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15). A passage by Abp. Fulton Sheen, written in the 1940s, sums up the matter quite well:

There is nothing more misunderstood by the modern mind than the authority of the Church. Just as soon as one mentions the authority of the Vicar of Christ there are visions of slavery, intellectual servitude, mental chains, tyrannical obedience, and blind service on the part of those who, it is said, are forbidden to think for themselves. That is positively untrue. Why has the world been so reluctant to accept the authority of the Father’s house? Why has it so often identified the Catholic Church with intellectual slavery? The answer is, because the world has forgotten the meaning of liberty.

One Surprise: The Bad

We entered the Catholic Church on March 29, 1997, Easter Vigil at Saint Paul Catholic Church in Eugene, Oregon. It was a joyful night and I can say with complete honesty I have never regretted becoming Catholic. But I have been surprised a few times as a Catholic. Two surprises stand out; they also, in a way related to the two points above, stand together.

As an Evangelical, I was very familiar with “church splits”. I endured my first as a four-year old (our family and several others left the local Christian and Missionary Alliance assembly) and my wife and I stopped attending our last Evangelical church while it was in the middle of a dramatic split. I soon learned, as a new Catholic, that “splits” aren’t really part of being Catholic. I also learned that disgruntled Catholics, especially those upset about Church teaching on sexuality, authority, and the priesthood, don’t always leave the Church; on the contrary, they often simply try to take over the Church. And by “Church”, I mean both the local parish and the Church as a whole. My first big surprise, then, was finding out that while I (and many other former Protestants) had spent months and years working through Church doctrine and moral teaching, we were entering a Church apparently dominated and largely run, at least in practical terms, by Catholics complaining incessantly and obnoxiously about Church doctrine and moral teaching.

Moving toward and then into the Church, I wasn’t unaware of such problems. But the sheer scope of the situation was confounding. It helped that I had a relatively low view of the human state; I didn’t expect pews full of Catechism-quoting saints. But I had hopes that most of them knew about the Catechism and had some desire to live holy lives. And so the farmer boy arrived in the city.

It’s not surprising that Catholics sin. It is surprising how some Catholic insist certain sins are not only sins in name only but are actually virtues in disguise!  It’s not shocking that many Catholics misunderstand the nature and mission of the Church. It is shocking how some Catholics deliberately distort and misrepresent the nature and mission of the mystical Body of Christ. It is not scandalous, per se, that many Catholics don’t have a close relationship with Jesus Christ. But it is scandalous when Catholics insist they don’t need Christ or his Church in order to be Catholic.

A case in point is the recent statement released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) about the status of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR). The CDF noted its serious concerns with long established patterns of “corporate dissent” indicating LCWR leaders often “take a position not in agreement with the Church’s teaching on human sexuality.” In fact, from its founding in the early 1970s, the Conference has thumbed its corporate nose at a host of Church teachings, including papal authority, the male priesthood, sexuality and contraception, the uniqueness of Christ, and so forth. It is the height (or depth) of irony that the LCWR site has this quote from Margaret Brennan, IHM, President from 1972 to 1973: “One danger for us is that we may become legitimators of society's commonly held values.” It ceased being a danger long ago, perhaps even before the quote was uttered. The CDF also highlighted the deep influence of radical feminist theology within the LCWR, and the undermining of the fundamental and “revealed doctrines of the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the inspiration of Sacred Scripture.” Details!

To judge by the mainstream news, the Vatican has been forcibly removing old nuns from convents and shuttling them to live beneath bridges and overpasses in southern Utah. One headline declared, “Vatican targets US nuns' reps”; another darkly stated, “Vatican condemns American nuns for liberal stances”. None of this surprising, of course, as the secular media is fixated on sensationalism, conflict, and opposition to traditional Christian teachings. You won’t see a headline stating, “Vatican offered LCWR a chance to save itself from self-inflicted death.” It would not fit the narrative, even if it fits the facts: the average age of LCWR women religious is at least twice that of those women religious in the CMSWR (Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious). Instead there are delicious sound bites, such as when Sister Simone Campbell, head of the lefty Network (named directly by the CDF), tells NPR it’s all about out-of-touch men in the Vatican who “are not used to strong women” and then blithely—arrogantly, really—says:

Women get it first and then try to explain it to the guys who - I mean, as the women did to the Apostles. So, we will try to explain it to the guys. We'll keep up our roles from the Scriptures.

Because every good Scripture scholar know that what Mary Magdalene and the other women did, to their eternal credit, was publicly thumb their noses at the Apostles' teachings and actions!

What the media also won’t say (again, understandably) is the situation with the LCWR is about a crisis of faith that has been festering and spreading for decades as an affront to genuine Church authority. One result of this crisis of faith is, I think, a laity weary, numb, angry, or simply confused. How to make sense of it? Stepping back as much as possible, one can situate it somewhere in the stream of parasitical, self-loathing, and self-righteous pseudo-religiosity that may be best defined as “modern, pantheistic-secularist liberalism”. Its heaven is earth; its authority is self (wrongly identified as “conscience”); its goals are horizontal (“social justice”); its rhetoric is both morally charged and completely bankrupt. “When you set out to reform a people, a group, who have done nothing wrong,” opined the endlessly opining Joan Chittister about the CDF statement, “you have to have an intention, a motivation that is not only not morally based, but actually immoral.” This is the same woman who praised and eulogized the radical, lesbian, Church-hating Mary Daly, saying Daly’s work “was an icon to women”. She fails completely, by any decent standard, to comprehend the meaning of “immoral”.

But this, I’ve learned, is the way of heresy within the Church, going back to the very beginning (think, for example, of Paul’s fight for the Galatians): to abuse trust and power, to misuse language, to undermine genuine authority, to dismiss essential truths, to claim the morally superior ground, to be a victim but never a martyr, and to distract and deflect at all costs.

The Second Surprise: The Good

This past Thursday marked the election of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to the Chair of Peter, despite the assurances of the usual suspects with unusually suspect intuition. This was a moment of great joy for me; Cardinal Ratzinger had long been a favorite theologian and author. His books helped me in becoming Catholic and they’ve helped me in becoming a better thinking and, hopefully, better living Catholic.

But, of course, just as the narrative about the LCWR presents disobedience as goodness, the narrative about Benedict XVI has often been as follows: an angry, narrow-minded, Nazi-sympathizing reactionary is now Pope, and he is intent on dragging the Church back to the dreaded Dark Ages. Perhaps some of this utterly banal silliness could be forgiven in the first week following the election. But since then it has reflected unlearned arrogance (a media specialty), or petulant and personal smearing (a media delight), or slovenly regurgitation of falsehoods (a media habit). Or all three (a media trinity).

I won’t bother with an apologetic. Simply read the man’s writings. And if you haven’t read the recently published collection, Fundamental Speeches From Five Decades (Ignatius Press, 2012), which contains a fabulous talk given in 1970, when then Fr. (and Professor) Joseph Ratzinger was just about my own age now, forty three or so. The talk was titled, “Why I am still in the Church”. It begins with a nuanced and thoughtful reflection on the confusion faced by many Catholics in the years after the Council, which Ratzinger described as “this remarkable Tower of Babel situation”. He noted some Catholics wish to make the Church into their own image, reflecting their desires and goals, not those of the Church herself. Behind all of the struggles over what the Church “should be”, Ratzinger said, is a “crucial” point: “the crisis of faith, which is the actual nucleus of the process”.

Then, answering the question implicit in his talk’s title, he said:

I am in the Church because, despite everything, I believe that she is at the deepest level not our but precisely “his” Church. To put it concretely: It is the Church that, despite all the human foibles of the people in her, gives us Jesus Christ, and only through her can we receive him as a living, authoritative reality that summons and endows me here and now. … This elementary acknowledgement has to be made at the start: Whatever infidelity there is or may be in the Church, however true it is that she constantly needs to be measured anew by Jesus Christ, still there is ultimately no opposition between Christ and Church. It is through the Church that he remains alive despite the distance of history, that he speaks to us today, is with us today as master and Lord, as our brother who unites us all as brethren. And because the Church, and she alone, gives us Jesus Christ, causes him to be alive and present in the world, gives birth to him again in every age in the faith and prayer of the people, she gives mankind a light, a support, and a standard without which mankind would be unimaginable. Anyone who wants to find the presence of Jesus Christ in mankind cannot find it contrary to the Church but only in her.

And therein lies the answer to the question that opened this essay, the question presented to me not long before I became Catholic. How could I join a Church that tells me how to think? How could I not join the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the household of his Father, infused with life by her soul, the Holy Spirit? How could I think—or desire, or choose, or will—to do otherwise? And how can I, given the grace to be a Catholic, not stand up for my mother, the Church? “Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith” (CCC 169). She teaches us how to think because, alone, we know not how. Or why. Or Who.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology; Worship
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To: Cronos
Not sure why you’re changing the subject other than you have no real response to my post.

I will however say that Yes I do believe Jesus words and use all of scripture to understand what they meant.

51 posted on 04/23/2012 3:18:00 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Cronos

LOL Had to revert to obfuscation I see. See ya.


52 posted on 04/23/2012 3:19:57 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
It ain't my fight, but doesn't Scripture tell us pretty clearly that Mary is to be venerated?

Luke 1:28:

And the Angel came unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art though among women.

53 posted on 04/23/2012 3:21:03 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Natural Law

Yep, been through this before. You keep telling me how it’s been translated and I insist on sticking with what it actually and literally means.

Menounge - nay surely, nay rather

http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=menounge&s=References&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+GRK


54 posted on 04/23/2012 3:24:35 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Mr. Lucky
>> It ain't my fight, but doesn't Scripture tell us pretty clearly that Mary is to be venerated? Luke 1:28:<<

Let Jesus speak for Himself. I have posted this in a previous post but you may have missed it.

Jesus disagreed with the words spoken about Mary and said those who believed were the ones who were blessed.

Luke 11:27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

The words spoken to Mary were no different then were spoken to Jael in Judges. In fact, Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women.

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,

Those words were also spoken of Noah, Moses, and David.

55 posted on 04/23/2012 3:37:05 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
"Um, NO. It was a cloud for Israel."

Depending on the translation you are using the term pillar appears about 140 times in the Protestant Bible. Only 12 times is it described as a cloud and 9 times as a pillar of fire. There is one reference to a pillar of salt and one reference to pillars being used structurally. That leaves over 120 times a pillar is a symbolic construct.

56 posted on 04/23/2012 3:39:45 PM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: CynicalBear
"http://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=menounge&s=References&rc=LEX&rc2=LEX+GRK"

What can you tell me about the qualifications of the contributors to www.biblesdtudytools.com that would compel me to believe their interpretations over those of my senior clergy and professors and the authors of the many books on the subject I have read?

57 posted on 04/23/2012 3:46:06 PM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: CynicalBear

I believe you’ll find that you’ve misquoted Luke 11:28.


58 posted on 04/23/2012 4:14:52 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Mr. Lucky

Nope. The word used there is “menounge” which means “nay rather”. No misquoting anything.


59 posted on 04/23/2012 4:36:46 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
Your were quoting from the King James translation. If you think that translation is in error, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. It's a little less than honest, however, to alter that translation to match your personal beliefs without noting that you've done so.
60 posted on 04/23/2012 4:40:53 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Natural Law

I look at the meaning of the word itself without trying to inject a meaning or explain a meaning given by someone else to a passage or verse.

Here’s another site just for reference. http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3304

If you look at every usage in scripture it is being used to disagree with or correct something that has been said.


61 posted on 04/23/2012 4:43:15 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Mr. Lucky

You did notice I bolded the “nay rather” right while injecting the real meaning of the Greek word used there?


62 posted on 04/23/2012 4:45:26 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
I'm not sure boldening a phrase without noting your intended significance helps much when the your perception of the "real meaning" is so novel that it has not been adopted by any published Bible translation I can find.

Which translation are you using?

63 posted on 04/23/2012 4:52:36 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Mr. Lucky

Don’t get lost in the bushes. I use the Greek interlinear a lot. The King James most of the time but always check the Greek meaning of words when I sense error. I didn’t come by my name by accident.


64 posted on 04/23/2012 5:03:22 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
"I look at the meaning of the word itself without trying to inject a meaning or explain a meaning given by someone else to a passage or verse."

You are looking at translations of translations. What in your judgment or experience qualifies you to validate the translations and infallibly interpret the original meaning?

"Here’s another site just for reference. http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3304"

This source too relies on contributors. If we are to take Strong's Concordance we have to first admit that it is not infallible and that it is based upon the King James translation which itself is flawed.

Since you seem so intent on appealing to authority, why don't you look to what the Early Church Fathers had to say on the subject, those who were either students of the Apostles or were no more than a generation or two removed from those who were?

65 posted on 04/23/2012 5:17:22 PM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: CynicalBear
OK, but, you'll have to forgive my going with the crowd on this one.

In Martin Luther's Die Bibel, he translated Luke 11:28 into:

Er aber sprach: Ja, selig sind, die das wort Gottes horen und bewahren,

which, in English can be translated to say:

He said: Yes (or indeed, or truly) are they that hear and keep the word of God.

Unlike the sisters this thread is about, I don't disagree with the teachings of my church.

66 posted on 04/23/2012 5:34:10 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: 353FMG

May God bless you for that leap of faith. Children see some things so clearly. God bless you for seeing the essence. As in Christ’s day, you knew His face in an instant.


67 posted on 04/23/2012 5:39:19 PM PDT by Melian ("Where will wants not, a way opens.")
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To: al_c

Congratulations! And thank you for continuing to grow as a Catholic soul. May God bless your journey!


68 posted on 04/23/2012 5:40:34 PM PDT by Melian ("Where will wants not, a way opens.")
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To: Melian

Sheesh, that was no leap of faith — I was just a punk kid with an inquisitive and hungry mind who, for some unknown reason, God took pity on.


69 posted on 04/23/2012 5:49:04 PM PDT by 353FMG
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To: Melian

Sheesh, that was no leap of faith — I was just a punk kid with an inquisitive and hungry mind who, for some unknown reason, God took pity on.


70 posted on 04/23/2012 5:49:04 PM PDT by 353FMG
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To: Mr. Lucky
>> OK, but, you'll have to forgive my going with the crowd on this one.<<

Following the “crowd” isn’t my way. I search for truth. Following the “crowd” will get you what the “crowd” gets.

71 posted on 04/23/2012 5:49:22 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Miss Marple

I will miss you, Miss Marple. Your posts have helped and sustained me throug the years and I thank you. Keep the faith. I too suffer at times with all the distractions caused by poor music, or too Glee-like music at Mass.

However, I remind myself that my job is to focus on what is going on at the altar and I will let no man lessen the Eucharist for me. It is just between me and God. Everything else is superfluous. I have begun a “Mass Journal” that I bring to Mass and in it I record the message of that Mass that struck me in my journey to be the best version of me I can be. Maybe doing that will help you too. It focuses the mind on the message.

When we suffer abuse for being Catholic we can count ourselves lucky to suffer those stripes for Him. God bless you always.


72 posted on 04/23/2012 5:51:07 PM PDT by Melian ("Where will wants not, a way opens.")
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To: NYer
The first is the intellectual life. The Fundamentalism of my youth was, in sum, anti-intellectual; it looked with caution, even fearful disdain, on certain aspects of modern science, technology, and academic study.

::Sigh:: Yet another "I became a Catholic because I believe in evolution and think the Bible is full of nonsense" story.

Here's a shocker: it's not that Fundamentalists don't think. They just think differently from you.

Just why Catholics think it's so "intellectual" to listen to "science" when it denies the historical truth of Genesis 1-11 while telling science to take a hike when it denies some precious Catholic "truth" (and thus to engage in hypocrisy and internal inconsistency) is beyond me. And I've quite worn out my brain thinking about it.

73 posted on 04/23/2012 5:51:18 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: 353FMG

God takes pity on us all and is always reaching out to us. You said, “Yes.”


74 posted on 04/23/2012 5:57:58 PM PDT by Melian ("Where will wants not, a way opens.")
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To: CynicalBear

You wrote:

“Oh really?”

Yes, really.

“Jeremiah castigates the people for making offerings to the queen of heaven.”

Those were pagans, not Christians. The queen of heaven they made offerings to was not the Virgin Mary. Again, there are no demonstrable connections between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories. You’re just proving my point for me.

“And isn’t it interesting that the concept of Mary being the “mother of God” was declared in Ephesus where Diana was worshiped as the “queen of heaven”. We find the pressure put on the Apostles from Ephesus in Acts 19.”

No concept was declared in Ephesus. At the COUNCIL of Ephesus, the DOCTRINE of Mary as the Theotokos was defined. As every orthodox Christian knows and acknowledges, Jesus is God, and Mary is His mother, therefore, Mary is the mother of God. Holding the council in Ephesus merely showed that paganism had been crushed by Christianity.

“Incorporating pagan symbols, rituals, and practices seems to be the Catholic Churches way to placate those who it wants to become members.”

Demonstrate that there is a connection between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories. Otherwise, everything else you say is just another anti-Catholic failure.

“There are other references to the “queen of heaven” concept in pagan religions which God called an abomination. Now would you find that concept contained in anything the Apostles or Jesus taught?”

Yes. They knew Jesus was a king. What do you call the mother of a king? A queen.

I knew you would fail to show ANY demonstrable connection between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories. You’ll keep failing too.


75 posted on 04/23/2012 8:24:26 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998; CynicalBear

>> “Those were pagans, not Christians. The queen of heaven they made offerings to was not the Virgin Mary” <<

.
Anyone who prays to “the virgin Mary” as queen of heaven or anything else is a pagan whether they know it or not. We are given prayer access to the Father only, and that solely in the name of his only begotten Son, Yeshua Hamachiac.

There is no other contact allowed, and there is no dead human that is consious of your prayers anyway; its the fallen ones that answer your contra-biblical prayers, if at all.
.


76 posted on 04/23/2012 8:33:17 PM PDT by editor-surveyor
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To: editor-surveyor; vladimir998; CynicalBear

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


77 posted on 04/23/2012 8:34:26 PM PDT by narses
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To: Melian
You sound like you may have heard Matthew Kelly somewhere, or seen his DVD "The Seven Pillars of Catholic Spirituality", and/or read his book "Rediscover Catholicism".

If so, wasn't that story about the blood from the boy powerful?

(He has a great sense of humor too.)
78 posted on 04/23/2012 8:37:46 PM PDT by Heart-Rest ( "The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: editor-surveyor

You wrote:

“Anyone who prays to “the virgin Mary” as queen of heaven or anything else is a pagan whether they know it or not.”

False. Pagans worship those other than God. No Catholic worships Mary. We pray to her through the power of Christ and ask for her prayers before the Lord. There is no worship involved on our part.

“We are given prayer access to the Father only, and that solely in the name of his only begotten Son, Yeshua Hamachiac.”

Christ shares His offices with His saints. That’s why He, the supreme judge, will allow saints to judge fallen angels at the end of time. (1 Cor. 6:3) Most anti-Catholics are too biblically illiterate to know that, of course.

“There is no other contact allowed, and there is no dead human that is consious of your prayers anyway; its the fallen ones that answer your contra-biblical prayers, if at all.”

The saints are alive in God. You make the same error as the Sadducees. Mark 12:24. Siding with the Sadducees is not a good sign.


79 posted on 04/23/2012 8:40:52 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: CynicalBear
Had to revert to obfuscation

Nah, asking you questions on your beliefs. Strange how some folks never want to talk about their beliefs.

80 posted on 04/23/2012 9:01:19 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
Whoever said she wasn’t?

Your post did. Also, as in heaven, we're to be made kings and queens by God, so hence Mary is a queen, isn't she?

81 posted on 04/23/2012 9:05:23 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear

and there you go again calling God by the Canaanite name Baal (Lord). why?


82 posted on 04/23/2012 9:06:23 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: CynicalBear
Yes I do believe Jesus words and use all of scripture to understand what they meant.

Then do you reject the false Gap Theory? And acknowledge that it is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states?

83 posted on 04/23/2012 9:07:31 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: narses

Hocus-pocus!

Gibberish!

Stick with the word of God.


84 posted on 04/23/2012 9:25:41 PM PDT by editor-surveyor
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To: editor-surveyor; lilycicero; MaryLou1; glock rocks; JPG; Monkey Face; RIghtwardHo; ...

editor-surveyor wrote:
Hocus-pocus!

Gibberish!

Stick with the word of God.

He was responding to me quoting a Canticle from Holy Scripture.

The text of the canticle is taken directly from the Gospel of Luke (Luke 1:46-55 ) where it is spoken by the Virgin Mary upon the occasion of her Visitation to her cousin Elizabeth. In the narrative, after Mary greets Elizabeth, who is pregnant with the future John the Baptist, the child moves within Elizabeth’s womb. When Elizabeth praises Mary for her faith, Mary sings what is now known as the Magnificat in response.

Then I quote Luther.

Odd that the poster has such a nasty, vicious response to the Holy Writ. Very odd. Here is exactly what I posted:

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


85 posted on 04/23/2012 9:34:23 PM PDT by narses
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To: vladimir998

The saints sleep. Paul made that very clear. When we die, we sleep until the rapture (first resurrection).

Anyone that you pray to you worship.

Christ gave no one the power to conjur up the dead.

Christ’s office is redeemer and priest, and he shares those with no one. (you can be glad of that, imagine hanging on the cross!)

The word is Christian, not anti-catholic. Catholics are anti-christian, or just plain numb.

Again, the saints sleep; they are not consious until they are changed, as Paul stated in his epistle to the Thessalonians.


86 posted on 04/23/2012 9:34:57 PM PDT by editor-surveyor
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To: editor-surveyor
Anyone that you pray to you worship.
What a bizarre repudiation of the Communion of Saints. What odd sect do you adhere to? Jehovah's Witness?
87 posted on 04/23/2012 9:36:43 PM PDT by narses
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To: editor-surveyor
Incidentally, that IS the word of God. That and some commentary by your boy Luther.

Why not consider a moment before spewing.

88 posted on 04/23/2012 10:00:43 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (The brain is the weapon; everything else is just accessories. --FReeper Joe Brower)
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To: Celtic Cross; editor-surveyor

editor-surveyor appears to belong to some odd non Christian cult. I am thinking one of the Millerite cults, but I could easily be wrong.


89 posted on 04/23/2012 10:05:46 PM PDT by narses
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To: editor-surveyor
"Again, the saints sleep..."

So why did Jesus descend into hell? To tell the saints, "wake up and go back to sleep"?

90 posted on 04/23/2012 10:06:46 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (The brain is the weapon; everything else is just accessories. --FReeper Joe Brower)
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To: Celtic Cross

An “Ancient Homily” of the early Church for Holy Saturday captured this event: “The whole earth keeps silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and He has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began.... He has gone to search for our first parent, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, He has gone to free from sorrow the captives of Adam and Eve, He who is both God and the Son of Eve.... ‘I am your God, who for your sake have become your Son.... I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be held a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.”


91 posted on 04/23/2012 10:10:40 PM PDT by narses
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To: Heart-Rest

I listened to Matthew Kelly’s Lighthouse Catholic Media CD and thought he had a really great idea about keeping a journal of the message you find especially meaningful in each individual Mass you attend.

I thought the whole thing was powerful, especially his comment that if all the fifty million Catholics in the U.S. would work harder at deepening their faith, that would simply change the face of America.

On the CD, he recommends just two steps to do that: Confession every month and a journal in which you record the message you hear at each Mass that allows you to be the best version of yourself you can be.


92 posted on 04/23/2012 10:26:27 PM PDT by Melian ("Where will wants not, a way opens.")
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To: vladimir998
>>What do you call the mother of a king? A queen.<<

No, the wife of a king is the queen. The only time his mother is also queen is if his father was king before him.

>>I knew you would fail to show ANY demonstrable connection between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories. You’ll keep failing too.<<

The only reference to the “queen of heaven” in scripture is pagan. The only women who were designated queen in scripture were if their husband was king. God the Father calls Israel His wife and Jesus bride is the church. The idea of the “queen of heaven” concept is a human construct of pagans and Catholics.

93 posted on 04/24/2012 5:14:52 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear; Mrs. Don-o; Cronos

-—No, the wife of a king is the queen.—

Bathsheba, King David’s wife, the Queen of the House of David, bowed to the King.

David’s son, King Solomon, bowed to the same woman, Bathsheba, his mother. The Queen Mother sat at the King’s right hand.

It’s in your abridged Bible:

1 Kings 1:15-16

So Bathsheba went to see the aged king (David) in his room, where Abishag the Shunammite was attending him.

Bathsheba bowed low and knelt before the king.

1 Kings 2:19

When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.

Jesus is the King of the eternal House of David.

Revelation 3:7

“To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words
of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. ...

Mary is Jesus’ Mother, the Queen Mother of the eternal House of David.

Revelation 12:1

A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. ...


94 posted on 04/24/2012 5:40:26 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: Cronos
>>Also, as in heaven, we're to be made kings and queens by God<<

Oh really?

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

If we are like the angels would you please find a reference in scripture to a female angel? For that matter, you said we would be “kings and queens” in heaven. Where in scripture is it found that there would be “queens” in heaven?

95 posted on 04/24/2012 6:10:59 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Cronos
>>and there you go again calling God by the Canaanite name Baal (Lord). why?<<

“I” called Him Baal? Look at that post again and you might notice it was scripture not “I”.

96 posted on 04/24/2012 6:13:39 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Cronos
>>Then do you reject the false Gap Theory?<<

Of course not. The six day reforming of the earth is in no way inconsistent.

97 posted on 04/24/2012 6:17:51 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Campion

Brilliant post, I’ve been trying to put into words exactly what you wrote for some time.

It’s also exactly why, with rare exception, I don’t let myself get sucked into a Bible verse war. It’s absolutely useless.

Exactly as useless (and unstable) as a chair with only one leg.


98 posted on 04/24/2012 6:20:50 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: knarf

Being taught what one should believe or being told what one must believe, while one is more passively suggestive and the other is more coercive and threatening, it still becomes a matter of personal choice to believe what is taught or is told to you!


99 posted on 04/24/2012 6:38:40 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Christ came not to make man into God but to restore fellowship of the Godhead with man.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Good grief man. Bathsheba was queen by having been king David’s wife which made her queen. Isn’t that what I said in my post? The queen is queen by virtue of her being married to the king not by being his mother.

Catholics always like to trot out the name of Bathsheba as being queen during the reign of king Solomon but never mention king David’s mother Nitzevet who was never queen even though she was the mother of David. If it were true that the mother of the king was the queen Nitzevet would have been the queen in David’s kingdom..

100 posted on 04/24/2012 6:43:31 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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