Skip to comments.On Fifteen Years a Catholic ("How can you join a church that tells you how to think?")
Posted on 04/22/2012 11:23:32 AM PDT by NYer
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I thought telling you how. To think was a hallmark of every religion?
What’s the problem with believing the truth?
the church doesnt tell you what to think...you have the free will to accept the grace offered, and think along the lines of the church and Christ’s teachings....
A matter not thought through is unsettled still.
I’ve heard him speak. He is also a dynamic speaker as well as writer.
The Church does not tell you what to think,
One Voluntarily Submits to it’s Teachings
some interpretations of Islam may force Submission,
but Christianity doesn’t
Voluntary Submission is required for
Confession, Contrition, and Penance
I just celebrated my 20th anniversary of becoming Catholic. Been growing ever since.
Very clear-minded view.
I must’ve been a mind-numb robot.
I was twelve when I wondered into a Catholic church, one Sunday afternoon during Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.
I saw a man in gold vestments, swinging a gold smoking object while pointing it at a gold monstrance which had a White Object in it, saw the smoke, smelled the incense, heard the bells while everyone was quiet. Looked at the many statues and, somehow I knew that this was for me. I shall always remember that scene.
That was a lifetime ago, and I never looked back.
What does a pillar do? It upholds something doesnt it. It doesnt create something or define something. It upholds or supports what is there. Its the same for a foundation. It doesnt generate something. It supports what has been built. The RCC wants people to think that it generates truth. That it can edict something which isnt in scripture and the followers must believe it. Mariology is completely made up by the RCC using age old pagan rituals and beliefs. It has no foundation in scripture. What the RCC wants followers to believe about the pillar and foundation of truth is a fallacy.
Here is another true story that can make us all think.
Although there is a TON of good stuff here, scroll down to
FATHER Lazarus El Anthony — THE LAST ANCHORITE — A hermit of the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Coptic Church in the Egyptian desert
Lazurus El anthony was a university lecturer in literature and philosophy in Australia, an atheist of 40 years and a Marxist. Then his mother died.
And he entered the desert.
His autobiography is MOST interesting.
“The RCC wants people to think that it generates truth.”
The Catholic Church has NEVER, EVER taught that or supported that idea.
Is "to edict" a sort of Protestant verb? like "to fellowship?"
Thanks for posting this. I am reading Pope Benedict’s book on the Eicharist, written while he was still Cardinal Ratzinger. He discusses the dissension after Vatican II and says that some poeple thought that making mass more “everyday” was what Christ wanted. He said this is why we had a series of churches built with multi-purpose areas rather than a separate church and parish hall. This struck me because that is how MY parish church was until about 8 years ago, when they gathered enough money to build a separate church and leave the mulit-purpose room to be the parish hall.
I also have struggled with parishioners who seem like they would be more happy as Methodists or something else non-Catholic, but instead are within the Church complaining and pushing false doctrine. I struggle with the abysmal music, my personal share in the sufferings of Christ.
Yet I cannot be anywhere else. One of the reasons I joined was BECAUSE of obedience, something I knew I needed to learn. And I joined because I cannot escape the idea that this is the Church Christ founded.
Now I must tell you I probably will not be here anymore. I have appreciated all the posts you have put up, but this place has become very unpleasant and is not on my list of places to visit. I came upon your post by accident.
So thank you for all of your work here over the years, and may God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit bless you for it.
Then show from scripture the bodily assumption of Mary.
“Then show from scripture the bodily assumption of Mary.”
Something doesn’t have to be explicitly in scripture to be true, nor does something not appearing explicitly in scripture mean it was “generated” by the Church. Also, the Assumption is seen by orthodox Christians in Revelation 12.
It depends upon the individual's focus. If the individual is focused upon the truth, then everything is good. If the individual has a particular belief system in place, then 'truth' becomes not an absolute, but a fluid.
A belief so central to Catholics wasnt taught by the Apostles or even mentioned in scripture? Give me a break. We can look to pagan beliefs to find the origin however.
>>Also, the Assumption is seen by orthodox Christians in Revelation 12.<<
LOL The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. In no way does it represent Mary.
This is ALWAYS the response, isn't it? "Show it to me in the Bible!" "Okay, here it is ..." "LOL ... That passage doesn't mean that"
Hear this, loud and clear: You have NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA authority to tell ANYONE else what the Bible means, and that's according to your own theology!! ... if you apply it consistently.
If you don't have to accept that the Pope can tell you what Scripture means, then logically I don't have to accept that you can tell me what Scripture means, either.
This is of course the fundamental flaw at the root of sola scriptura. Who gets to decide what the hard passages mean? You think you ought to get to decide what the hard passages mean for you, but I'm under no compunction to recognize your authority to decide that for me, am I? Of course not. Denying the Papacy in principle does not mean that you then get to appoint yourself to the office that you just rejected.
And, BTW, you're completely wrong about Revelation 12. The son is an individual, the dragon is an individual, and the woman is also an individual.
“A belief so central to Catholics wasnt taught by the Apostles or even mentioned in scripture? Give me a break.”
Learn to read. I said Revelation 12. That being said, no, something that we might all consider important does not have to be in scripture. Example = what books belong in the Bible.
“We can look to pagan beliefs to find the origin however.”
No, actually we can’t. We can’t do that anymore than all those claims that the story of Jesus is just a pagan story. Idiots make claims, but they are easily refuted: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm
There is, in fact, no demonstrable connection between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories.
“LOL The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. In no way does it represent Mary.”
No, actually the woman in Rev. 12 is Mary, Israel and the Church. That’s the way orthodox Christians have always seen it. Only modern Protestants don’t. Even early Protestants often saw it.
How wonderful for you, the Lord works in mysterious ways.
I was in Catholic churches fairly often because I live in a small town and went to weddings and funerals and I never even saw any of that stuff, I was probably so into myself I couldn’t see them.
I was around 38 when I seriously started asking questions and making my lazy Catholic friends answer them even if they had to go to the priest. I was 46 when I was confirmed, so the journey was long but wonderful.
Ah, I forgot to mention that this event took place way before Vatican II.
I grew up with the Tridentine Mass and I still miss it.
blah, blah, blah. The facts are that those who reject Christ’s teachings reject the Church and the wanderings from the teachings of Christ through His apostles leads to kooks like the Raelians, Benny Hinn and the like...
But...we need good people like you to provide the balance, wisdom, etc. We need to pray for those who are frustrated and help them think. This Caucus has become one of the best things here for me...and that is because these good people are faithful.
The makers of Royal Crown Cola want people to think that their product is a tasty beverage.
So you think Mary is coming back to earth to be persecuted and protected?
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Oh really? Jeremiah castigates the people for making offerings to the queen of heaven.
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
And isnt it interesting that the concept of Mary being the mother of God was declared in Ephesus where Diana was worshiped as the queen of heaven. We find the pressure put on the Apostles from Ephesus in Acts 19.
Acts 19:24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.
26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.
28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre.
30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not.
31 And certain of the chief of Asia, which were his friends, sent unto him, desiring him that he would not adventure himself into the theatre.
32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused: and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander beckoned with the hand, and would have made his defence unto the people.
34 But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?
36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly.
37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.
38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another.`
Incorporating pagan symbols, rituals, and practices seems to be the Catholic Churches way to placate those who it wants to become members.
There are other references to the queen of heaven concept in pagan religions which God called an abomination. Now would you find that concept contained in anything the Apostles or Jesus taught?
Im sure you would be so kind as to show us where Jesus taught the concept of the queen of heaven?
Why is it you think we use only scripture to interpret scripture?
Well put. I think what I will. When what I think seems against the magesterium, I figure it’s a mystery, and I’ll find out later, if its important. I didn’t necessarily BELIEVE everything I was told, but I ACCEPTED it. And honestly, the church and I were very closely matched before I decided to join.
Read the bit about honor your father and your mother. Jesus did and does honor His mother...
have you ever read rev 1:6 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - so, in heaven to reign as kings and Queens. Mary is in heaven (or do you doubt that?), so add those two ...
or lets take another one — Ba’al — that’s canaanite for Lord. So, ya saying that to call God Lord is pagan?
Not in biblical symbolism. Throughout Scripture a pillar is used as a symbol of God's presence and law.
-—fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn’t mean this term can’t rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary.-—
The key to understanding this for me is that Mary is the “Queen Mother” of Jesus, the King of the eternal House of David.
Solomon exalted the office of Queen Mother to be higher than that of the Queen.
Queen Bathsheba bows to her husband, King David. King Solomon bowed to her, his Queen Mother. The Queen Mother sat at Solomon’s right hand.
Isn't Jesus pretty clear? you MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE
Do you believe Jesus's words or not?
Note -- ALL of it:
the Father is 100% God
the Son is 100% God
the Holy Spirit is 100% God
All are co-equal
All are co-powerful
All are co-existing
All are omniescient (IOWs exist inifitously and outside of time and space)
That All live in All time and space
do you realize that it is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states?
Do you realize that this theory if you hold to it puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture?
Wow, folks use that to compare Odin's handing on a tree to condemn us Christians. wow...
Symbol is derived from the Greek word symbolon, meaning half of a broken object. Symbolon also means a gathering, collection or summary. Its earliest uses was as a proof of a pact or contract. Often a sacred object would be broken and the pieces distributed between the parties. The pieces remained the symbol of the agreement and the perfect fit with the other pieces, like a key, proved the legitimacy of the relationship.
All persons were created in His image by God and for God and have within their hearts a desire to return to God. Pagan symbols, rituals, and practices that fit perfectly with the Word of God are not a coincidence, unless one presumes that God would have been too damned dumb to plant and make use of them when calling His lost and separated Children home. Because God is the author of all truth and beauty, any traces of truth or beauty found in paganism was of God. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church"
1147 God speaks to man through the visible creation. The material cosmos is so presented to man's intelligence that he can read there traces of its Creator. Light and darkness, wind and fire, water and earth, the tree and its fruit speak of God and symbolize both his greatness and his nearness.
1148 Inasmuch as they are creatures, these perceptible realities can become means of expressing the action of God who sanctifies men, and the action of men who offer worship to God. The same is true of signs and symbols taken from the social life of man: washing and anointing, breaking bread and sharing the cup can express the sanctifying presence of God and man's gratitude toward his Creator.
1149 The great religions of mankind witness, often impressively, to this cosmic and symbolic meaning of religious rites. The liturgy of the Church presupposes, integrates and sanctifies elements from creation and human culture, conferring on them the dignity of signs of grace, of the new creation in Jesus Christ.
Lets let Jesus speak for Himself. Jesus didnt agree that Mary was to be venerated above others.
Jesus disagreed with the words spoken about Mary and said those who believed were the ones who were blessed.
Luke 11:27And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
The words spoken to Mary were no different then were spoken to Jael in Judges. In fact, Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,
Those words were also spoken of Noah, Moses, and David.
Further more, when Jesus was a child He rebuked His mother when she went looking for Him. Then you may remember when He made the statement who is my mother and who are my brethren.
Mark 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
So where is the veneration the Catholics like to bestow?
Whoever said she wasnt? No special place of veneration however. See my last post to you.
Lots of Christians aren’t in communion with the Roman Catholic Church; most of them happen to be in communion with some other organized religion. Why someone would claim to be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, but to disagree with its fundmental teachings is more than a little irrational.
Oh, we could get deep into where that name lord came from and how it began to be used wrongly. Ill just let God speak for Himself and leave it at that.
Hosea 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
Lets just say the correct names of Yahúweh and Yahushúa will once again be used in the not too distant future.
Sorry Bear, we've been through this before. The Greek word used was μενοῦνγε (menounge). It is used three times in New Testament Scripture; Luke 11:28, Romans 9:20, and Romans 10:18. The closest English idiomatic translation is "of course" or "and even more so".
"The words spoken to Mary were no different then were spoken to Jael in Judges. In fact, Jael was called blessed above women. Mary was called blessed among women."
Been through this one too. The Hebrew word used to describe Jael as blessed was a present tense verb. Jael lived about 1,000 years before Christ. No where does Scripture declare that Jael would remain the most blessed woman to ever live. It simply states that she was the most blessed in Israel at that time.
Idiomatically, when Mary is declared Blessed among women it means that within the group of all women Mary is the blessed one.
Um, NO. It was a cloud for Israel. Then there is the Shekinah but no pillar as such.