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On Fifteen Years a Catholic ("How can you join a church that tells you how to think?")
Catholic World Report ^ | April 20, 2012 | Carl Olson

Posted on 04/22/2012 11:23:32 AM PDT by NYer

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To: editor-surveyor
First of all, you are equating two things that are not synonymous: necromany, and intercessory prayer to the saints. The word "necromancy" derives from the Greek “nekrós, ("dead body"), and “manteía”, (“prophesying or divination”) and refers to a type of sorcery involving the conjuring of spirits of the dead for the purpose of cortune-telling: predicting the future.

Intercessory prayer to the saints does neither of these things: it does not conjure up spirits, and it does not attempt or pretend prophecy/divination. It's not necromancy,and if anyone were to try to use Christian prayer as a form of necromancy, that would be a sin.

Are you a member of a church that teaches that the faithful departed are cut off from the Body of Christ and have no more interest in us or are in no position to pray for us? I would like to understand more of where this view comes from, since I can't seem to find a Christian source. Can you suggest a website that links to your church's teachings?

Second, why don';t you respond to what I asked? Do you believe in the Trinity? In the Communion of Saints? Do you believe we are members of the Body of Christ?

141 posted on 04/26/2012 8:28:18 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Stet.)
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To: CynicalBear

You wrote:

“and of course you could show where the apostles taught that or at least instituting the office of “queen of heaven”.”

Can you show me where the Apostles taught that the gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew or that it is inspired? No, you can’t. Not all truths are in the Bible.

“So you’re saying that the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary?”

Yes, and Israel and the Church. All three, and differing according to the verses. I already said this.


142 posted on 04/26/2012 9:03:02 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Lera; CynicalBear

I doubt CynicalBear could answer your questions.

You wrote:

“What was Collyridianism ?”

A heretical movement in Arabia in the 5th century which worshiped the Virgin Mary as god.

“What exactly did the Collyridians do that they were considered heretics ?”

They worshiped Mary as god. Thus, they were excommunicated - and that would happen to anyone who did that today as well.


143 posted on 04/26/2012 9:06:30 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998; Lera
>>They worshiped Mary as god. Thus, they were excommunicated - and that would happen to anyone who did that today as well.<<

Well, maybe we should break it down. Let’s take the prayer of Prayer of Pope Pius XII. [http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm]

I’ll use just the bolded excerpts from the prayer.

we cast ourselves into your arms

1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. (When did we need to replace God with Mary?)

confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (once again Catholics replacing Christ with Mary)

O crystal fountain of faith

Romans 12:3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. or "a measure of faith." (but Mary is the “fountain of faith” for Catholics)

Lily of all holiness

1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (for Catholics however, “all holiness” is given to Mary)

Conqueress of evil and death

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (but Catholics claim it was Mary who conquered death)

Convert the wicked

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Catholics have even replaced the Holy Spirit with Mary)

Statement by catholic Bishop Liqouri “.......We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus.....” She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help”

Mary is their salvation? If that’s not worship and blasphemy I don’t know what is.

Need I go on? Catholics have replaced virtually every attribute and working of God and given that to Mary in their worship.

144 posted on 04/26/2012 9:32:49 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“Intercessory prayer to the saints” is truly necromancy.

We are not permitted to pray to dead saints. We have no real way of even knowing whether the dead are truly ‘saints,’ that is for YHWH and his angels to know.

All of our needs are fulfilled through prayer to the Father.
.


145 posted on 04/26/2012 12:13:45 PM PDT by editor-surveyor
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To: editor-surveyor

Repetition is not argument, and a statement reiterated does not contribute additional insight or evidence. This is unhelpful. Good bye.


146 posted on 04/26/2012 12:32:48 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Stet.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Repitition of what we are instructed in the Bible by Jesus Christ contributes all there is to contribute in insight and evidence.

Have an incitfull and edified day!
.


147 posted on 04/26/2012 12:52:56 PM PDT by editor-surveyor
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To: Natural Law; CynicalBear; MarkBsnr

“”If we are to take Strong’s Concordance we have to first admit that it is not infallible and that it is based upon the King James translation which itself is flawed.””

You hit the nail on the head on this because it has lead unimaginable modernist Christian thought and teaching because of Strongs Concordance error and the KJV

Here is just 1 good source on this, there are many

http://www.avpublications.com/avnew/downloads/PDF/HazMat/H-pp_157-202_Chapter_7_Strong_Delusion-James_Strongs_Dang.pdf


148 posted on 04/26/2012 3:42:48 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
"You hit the nail on the head on this because it has lead unimaginable modernist Christian thought and teaching because of Strongs Concordance error and the KJV..."

I attribute that more to the practice of self interpretation than to anything else. I can't understand how those who profess to be so Bible literate, who argue over Koine Greek punctuation and conjugation, can ignore the simple portions that they don't like.

"This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. 29 The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”

"Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked."

“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him."

- Acts 8:26-31

149 posted on 04/26/2012 3:57:25 PM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: Natural Law
attribute that more to the practice of self interpretation than to anything else

I agree with you,a flawed Bible does not affect a well educated Catholic/Orthodox who know their faith well because we understand the correct interpretations and meanings of Scripture and can trace these teachings back to the writings of the Church Fathers consensus and final dogma at some point on many important teachings

150 posted on 04/26/2012 4:08:20 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: CynicalBear

You wrote:

“we cast ourselves into your arms”

Nothing wrong with poetic speech. First, the phrase you posted and the verse from Peter are not the same. Anti-Catholics, blinded by their hatred and bigotry, are often too numbed to reality to actually get basic facts straight.

“When did we need to replace God with Mary?”

We didn’t. Mary works for God. When people sought miracles from the Apostles were they replacing God with the Apostles? No. Clearly your attempt at a point here completely fails. That was the only way it could go, of course.

“confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.”

Nothing wrong there. First, there’s no hint of worship. The fact that Mary is loving has nothing to do with worship. Ditto for “safe harbor” or anything else in the prayer.

“Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”

Nothing the verse you cites goes against anything in the prayer.

“once again Catholics replacing Christ with Mary”

Nope. You failed to demostrate how that is even happening. The reason why is simple - because it isn’t happening.

“O crystal fountain of faith”

No problem there.

“Romans 12:3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. or “a measure of faith.””

Mary was the mother of Jesus. God is the source of Faith and He came through Mary. Hence, she’s a fountain of faith.

“but Mary is the “fountain of faith” for Catholics”

Again, Mary was the mother of Jesus. God is the source of Faith and He came through Mary. Hence, she’s a fountain of faith.

“Lily of all holiness”

Nothing wrong there.

“1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.”

Nothing in the verse goes against the prayer.

“for Catholics however, “all holiness” is given to Mary”

Jesus is all holy by His very nature. The Holy Bible is holy because of it’s source. The Church is holy because of its source. Mary is holy because of the gifts given her by her perfect Son.

“Conqueress of evil and death”

Yep. Nothing wrong there.

“Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.”

Nothing in the verse goes against the prayer.

“but Catholics claim it was Mary who conquered death”

Adam and Eve gave us death. Jesus and Mary conquered death. Jesus is the New Adam. Mary is the New Eve. Eve disobeyed God. Mary was submissive and obedient.

St. Irenaeus of Lyon (d.202), put it this way:

“Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a Virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race.... And so it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by Mary’s obedience. For what the virgin Eve bound fast by her refusal to believe, this the Virgin Mary unbound by her belief.”

“Convert the wicked”

Absolutely, through her prayers.

“John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Catholics have even replaced the Holy Spirit with Mary)”

Nope. I have aided the Holy Spirit in converting sinners. Haven’t you? Perhaps anti-Catholics live lives so alienated from God that they are never called upon by the Holy Spirit to minister to sinners and be instruments to encourage them to conversion. That would not surprise me.

“Statement by catholic Bishop Liqouri “.......We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus.....” She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help”

Since all anti-Catholics lie - they must sooner or later do so for the facts do not support their hatred - we know not to trust their use of ellipses. Let’s look at the first passage as it actually stands rather than as the bigoted anti-Catholic would deceptively present it:

“’Sooner,’ says the devout Blosius, ‘ would heaven and earth be destroyed than would Mary fail to assist anyone who asks for her help, provided he does so with a good intention and with confidence in her.’30 Saint Anselm, to increase our confidence, adds, that ‘when we have recourse to this Divine Mother, not only we may be sure of her protection, but that often we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to Mary and call on her holy name, than we should be if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour and the reason he gives for it is, ‘that to Jesus, as a Judge, it belongs also to punish; but mercy alone belongs to the Blessed Virgin as a patroness.’ Meaning, that we more easily find salvation by having recourse to the Mother than by going to the Son—not as if Mary was more powerful than her Son to save us, for we know that Jesus Christ is our only Saviour, and that He alone by His merits has obtained and obtains salvation for us; but it is for this reason: that when we have recourse to Jesus, wo consider Him at the same time as our Judge, to whom it belongs also to chastise ungrateful souls, and therefore the confidence necessary to be heard may fail us; but when we go to Mary, who has no other office than to compassionate us as Mother of mercy, and to defend us as our advocate, our confidence is more easily established, and is often greater. ‘We often obtain more promptly what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus. Her Son is Lord and Judge of all, and discerns the merits of each one; and therefore if He does not immediately grant the prayers of all, He is just When, however, the Mother’s name is invoked, though the merits of the suppliant are not such as to deserve that his prayer should be granted, those of the Mother supply that he may receive.’31

‘Many things,’ says Nicephorus, ‘are asked from God, and are not granted: they are asked from Mary, and are obtained.’ And how is this? It is ‘because God has thus decreed to honour His Mother.’”

So, did you actually read the full passage now? Did you see this: “FOR WE KNOW THAT JESUS CHRIST IS OUR ONLY SAVIOR, AND THAT HE ALONE BY HIS MERITS HAS OBTAINS SALVATION FOR US”

So, the very thing you quote from Ligouri ACTUALLY SHOWS THAT YOUR QUOTING OF THE PASSAGE IS DECEPTIVE. Typical.

And the second quote - not surprisingly - completely leaves out “through her intercession”. Yeah, typical. Anti-Catholics have to be deceptive don’t forget. The facts just don’t support their claims.

“Mary is their salvation? If that’s not worship and blasphemy I don’t know what is.”

As I noted “through her intercession”. Ask yourself now, who left out that portion of the passage? Was it you or the website you found this at? Why would someone leave out something that important? Why would someone leave out something as important as “FOR WE KNOW THAT JESUS CHRIST IS OUR ONLY SAVIOR, AND THAT HE ALONE BY HIS MERITS HAS OBTAINS SALVATION FOR US”? Can a person who leaves out something so important be trusted? Can he or she be a serious Christian and lie that much? You tell me.

“Need I go on?”

Yes, please do. The most important thing we have learned is that anti-Catholic are not afraid to lie to attack the Catholic Faith. So why do you use their websites when it is so obvious they are deliberately lying? We orthodox Christians believe lying is a sin. How about you?

“Catholics have replaced virtually every attribute and working of God and given that to Mary in their worship.”

Nope. As I demonstrated, that is completely false and anti-Catholics literally have to lie just to make it appear that way. Do you know who the father or lies is? Do you believe bearing false witness serves him?


151 posted on 04/26/2012 4:13:47 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: stfassisi
"...does not affect a well educated Catholic/Orthodox who know their faith well because we understand the correct interpretations and meanings of Scripture..."

It is not so much what we understand as what we hold to be true. During my religious education and conversion process I encountered numerous difficulties with areas of interpretation, doctrine and dogma. Where the modernist or relativist Protestant, and even the lapsed Catholic would take the position that their own capabilities of discernment and rationalization were what must determine the truth I had faith in the teaching authority of my Church. Rather than truncate my studies and starve my understanding of the truth I am humble enough to admit that the difficulty and shortcoming is in me, not my Church and that I owed it to God, my Church and myself to keep studying and praying until I "got it". In every case, when pursued to the end, I have found the Church to be right.

Those whose authority is themselves or highly flawed persons they cite as authorities on par with the Magisterium simply on the basis that their expert agrees with them, are demonstrating a lack of faith. I feel as compelled by charity to aid them by feeding them the truth as I do to feed hungry children bread.

152 posted on 04/26/2012 4:24:57 PM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: Natural Law
It is not so much what we understand as what we hold to be true.

Agreed.

I am humble enough to admit that the difficulty and shortcoming is in me, not my Church and that I owed it to God, my Church and myself to keep studying and praying until I "got it". In every case, when pursued to the end, I have found the Church to be right.

Well said, I feel the same way.

I feel as compelled by charity to aid them by feeding them the truth as I do to feed hungry children bread.

Persecution is to be expected,even within our own families when we hold to the truth of our faith

153 posted on 04/26/2012 5:04:03 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi; Natural Law; metmom; CynicalBear; boatbums
"It is not so much what we understand as what we hold to be true."

Eph. 1:17-19 doesn't quite match up with what you are saying here.

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may GIVE UNTO YOU THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM and revelation in the knowledge of him: THE EYES OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING BEING ENLIGHTENED; that ye may KNOW WHAT IS THE HOPE OF HIS CALLING, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness OF HIS POWER TO USWARD WHO BELIEVE, according to the working of his mighty power."

It is only through UNDERSTANDING His Word that a person can KNOW that what they hold is in fact TRUTH. And notice also, that the Spirit of Widsom and revelation in the knowledge of him is given to you BY HIM. NOT by your Church, or your doctrines, or your traditions. It is through His Word that a person understands and knows what is the hope of his calling.

154 posted on 04/26/2012 5:19:06 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice
It is only through UNDERSTANDING His Word that a person can KNOW that what they hold is in fact TRUTH. And notice also, that the Spirit of Widsom and revelation in the knowledge of him is given to you BY HIM. NOT by your Church, or your doctrines, or your traditions. It is through His Word that a person understands and knows what is the hope of his calling.

Believing you know the truth is like me believing satan knows the truth, which I don't believe

155 posted on 04/26/2012 5:28:31 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: BigCinBigD

It is the hallmark of every RELIGION. That’s how you can spot religion a mile away and run from it.

God is interested in relationships, not religions. If He wanted a religion, He could have stuck with what the Pharisees turned Judaism into.


156 posted on 04/26/2012 7:03:20 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: vladimir998; CynicalBear; daniel1212
You (CB) wrote: “The RCC wants people to think that it generates truth.”

v998: The Catholic Church has NEVER, EVER taught that or supported that idea.

Really? Does that mean that the FRoamn Catholics will now quit telling us how the Catholic church wrote the Bible and that it has the ability to speak infallibly in the matter of faith and morals?

157 posted on 04/26/2012 7:12:58 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

You wrote:

“Really?”

Yes, really.

“Does that mean that the FRoamn Catholics will now quit telling us how the Catholic church wrote the Bible and that it has the ability to speak infallibly in the matter of faith and morals?”

No, since the Church wrote the Bible and can infallibly define doctrine and since neither has to do with “generating truth”.


158 posted on 04/26/2012 7:30:19 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: stfassisi; metmom; CynicalBear; boatbums
You don't believe satan knows the truth? Satan found out the TRUTH at Calvary. Satan thought that the crucifixion of Christ would DESTROY Him. There must have been lots of high fives going on in satan's domain as Christ died in shame and disgrace on Calvary's cross.

But it was short lived. And THAT is when satan realized THE TRUTH. When Christ arose from the dead. That is when satan discovered that he had tricked HIMSELF by crucifying Christ- that God had actually PAID FOR MAN'S SINS by the death of Christ. That is the good news of the Cross that Paul proclaimed. That God had sent him forth to offer "redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7).

Satan reached the climax of his career of deception when he deceived HIMSELF at Calvary.

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world KNEW; for HAD THEY KNOWN IT, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY." 1 Cor. 2:7-8.

Satan KNOWS the truth. He KNOWS his time is short. He KNOWS his defeat was at Calvary. That is why he hates and opposes the message of grace, the preaching of the cross, more bitterly than he ever hated or opposed the prophetic program. Nor is it strange that it is GOd's purpose:

...that NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God." (Eph. 3:10).

If you don't believe he knows the truth, you are deceiving yourself and being deceived.

159 posted on 04/26/2012 7:30:49 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice
"Eph. 1:17-19 doesn't quite match up with what you are saying here."

The Holy Spirit does not give everyone all of the gifts but none receive any of the gifts without faith.

“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.” - 1 Corinthians 12:7-11:

God, infinite and infinitely perfect, is beyond the capacity of humans to fully understand. Faith is the acceptance of things not understood.

160 posted on 04/26/2012 7:38:43 PM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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