Posted on 04/22/2012 11:23:32 AM PDT by NYer
A belief so central to Catholics wasn’t taught by the Apostles or even mentioned in scripture? Give me a break. We can look to pagan beliefs to find the origin however.
>>Also, the Assumption is seen by orthodox Christians in Revelation 12.<<
LOL The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. In no way does it represent Mary.
This is ALWAYS the response, isn't it? "Show it to me in the Bible!" "Okay, here it is ..." "LOL ... That passage doesn't mean that"
ALWAYS. ALWAYS.
Hear this, loud and clear: You have NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA authority to tell ANYONE else what the Bible means, and that's according to your own theology!! ... if you apply it consistently.
If you don't have to accept that the Pope can tell you what Scripture means, then logically I don't have to accept that you can tell me what Scripture means, either.
This is of course the fundamental flaw at the root of sola scriptura. Who gets to decide what the hard passages mean? You think you ought to get to decide what the hard passages mean for you, but I'm under no compunction to recognize your authority to decide that for me, am I? Of course not. Denying the Papacy in principle does not mean that you then get to appoint yourself to the office that you just rejected.
And, BTW, you're completely wrong about Revelation 12. The son is an individual, the dragon is an individual, and the woman is also an individual.
You wrote:
“A belief so central to Catholics wasn’t taught by the Apostles or even mentioned in scripture? Give me a break.”
Learn to read. I said Revelation 12. That being said, no, something that we might all consider important does not have to be in scripture. Example = what books belong in the Bible.
“We can look to pagan beliefs to find the origin however.”
No, actually we can’t. We can’t do that anymore than all those claims that the story of Jesus is just a pagan story. Idiots make claims, but they are easily refuted: http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm
There is, in fact, no demonstrable connection between the Virgin Mary and pagan stories.
“LOL The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. In no way does it represent Mary.”
No, actually the woman in Rev. 12 is Mary, Israel and the Church. That’s the way orthodox Christians have always seen it. Only modern Protestants don’t. Even early Protestants often saw it.
How wonderful for you, the Lord works in mysterious ways.
I was in Catholic churches fairly often because I live in a small town and went to weddings and funerals and I never even saw any of that stuff, I was probably so into myself I couldn’t see them.
I was around 38 when I seriously started asking questions and making my lazy Catholic friends answer them even if they had to go to the priest. I was 46 when I was confirmed, so the journey was long but wonderful.
Ah, I forgot to mention that this event took place way before Vatican II.
I grew up with the Tridentine Mass and I still miss it.
blah, blah, blah. The facts are that those who reject Christ’s teachings reject the Church and the wanderings from the teachings of Christ through His apostles leads to kooks like the Raelians, Benny Hinn and the like...
But...we need good people like you to provide the balance, wisdom, etc. We need to pray for those who are frustrated and help them think. This Caucus has become one of the best things here for me...and that is because these good people are faithful.
;-)
Nonsense.
The makers of Royal Crown Cola want people to think that their product is a tasty beverage.
So you think Mary is coming back to earth to be persecuted and protected?
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Oh really? Jeremiah castigates the people for making offerings to the queen of heaven.
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
And isn’t it interesting that the concept of Mary being the “mother of God” was declared in Ephesus where Diana was worshiped as the “queen of heaven”. We find the pressure put on the Apostles from Ephesus in Acts 19.
Acts 19:24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.
26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.
28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre.
30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not.
31 And certain of the chief of Asia, which were his friends, sent unto him, desiring him that he would not adventure himself into the theatre.
32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused: and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander beckoned with the hand, and would have made his defence unto the people.
34 But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?
36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly.
37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.
38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another.`
Incorporating pagan symbols, rituals, and practices seems to be the Catholic Churches way to placate those who it wants to become members.
There are other references to the “queen of heaven” concept in pagan religions which God called an abomination. Now would you find that concept contained in anything the Apostles or Jesus taught?
I’m sure you would be so kind as to show us where Jesus taught the concept of the “queen of heaven”?
Why is it you think we use only scripture to interpret scripture?
Well put. I think what I will. When what I think seems against the magesterium, I figure it’s a mystery, and I’ll find out later, if its important. I didn’t necessarily BELIEVE everything I was told, but I ACCEPTED it. And honestly, the church and I were very closely matched before I decided to join.
Read the bit about honor your father and your mother. Jesus did and does honor His mother...
have you ever read rev 1:6 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - so, in heaven to reign as kings and Queens. Mary is in heaven (or do you doubt that?), so add those two ...
or lets take another one — Ba’al — that’s canaanite for Lord. So, ya saying that to call God Lord is pagan?
Not in biblical symbolism. Throughout Scripture a pillar is used as a symbol of God's presence and law.
-—fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn’t mean this term can’t rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary.-—
The key to understanding this for me is that Mary is the “Queen Mother” of Jesus, the King of the eternal House of David.
Solomon exalted the office of Queen Mother to be higher than that of the Queen.
Queen Bathsheba bows to her husband, King David. King Solomon bowed to her, his Queen Mother. The Queen Mother sat at Solomon’s right hand.
Jesus said
Isn't Jesus pretty clear? you MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE
Do you believe Jesus's words or not?
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