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Female Episcopal Priest Visits a Mormon Temple
The Mormon Dialogue ^ | April 23,,2012 | Danielle Tumminio

Posted on 04/24/2012 1:28:27 PM PDT by Jeff Head

As I stood in front of the new Mormon Temple in Liberty, Mo., it struck me as ironic that close to 175 years ago, Mormons were forced out of this same state.

Whereas the Missouri public once urged their governor to force Joseph Smith and his followers out of the area surrounding Kansas City, Mormons began to return to the region in the 1900s, eventually gathering in such large numbers that the Church organization decided the region needed a temple.

Which is why I came to visit.

Latter Day Saints restrict temple access to members of their denomination who have proven themselves to be faithful and dedicated adherents. Because Mormons believe temples are the most sacred places on earth, one needs to be prepared to enter them by being an active member of the Church. (In contrast, chapels, where Mormons hold Sunday worship, are open to everyone. Temples are used only for certain rituals and are not open on Sunday so that Mormons can be at their chapel services.)

When a new temple is built, anyone may enter prior to its dedication. So, always curious to learn about the faith of others, I didn't want to miss an opportunity to see a site normally closed off to an Episcopal priest like myself.

My visit seemed all the more timely because Mormons have been in the news a lot lately, and so have their temples. Elizabeth Smart recently married her husband in a temple in Hawaii during a ceremony called a sealing, in which the couple and close Mormon friends and family gather together to witness God joining the couple together for time and all eternity. In less complimentary news, Elie Wiesel took Mitt Romney to task for his faith's practice of baptisms of the dead, which also take places within temple walls.

These headlines, in addition to my own curiosity, motivated my visit to the new temple in Kansas City, and with my curiosity came some questions:

What does a Mormon temple look like, and what happens inside it?

Would I feel God's presence in this space, even though it's not a space that's sacred for me?

Before I go any further -- and because I know it's the question at the front of your mind, dear reader -- no one tried to convert me. In fact, everyone was very welcoming. Members volunteered en masse, clad in pressed suits and dresses. They offered guided tours, bent down to put protective boots onto my feet so my shoes wouldn't dirty the carpeting, and offered me a chewy snickerdoodle at the end of the tour. They showed me every space from changing rooms to sealing rooms where marriages take place and answered every question I asked, no matter how challenging or controversial.

And in the end, yes, I did have a God moment.

But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Mormons go to temples to be close to God. Much like the ancient Jewish people believed God lived at the heart of the temple in Jerusalem, Mormons believe that followers can meet God most intimately in the temple. The reasons they visit temples vary: In addition to having their marriages sealed in the temple, Mormons also have sealing ceremonies that unite parents and children for time and all eternity. Others come to participate in baptisms of the dead, which are intended to be used only for deceased family members of active Mormons, though the Church acknowledged in the wake of Elie Wiesel's comments that others -- such as Anne Frank -- have had baptisms performed on their behalf. These baptisms are not intended to convert the deceased but rather to give them a choice in the afterlife to embrace the revelation of Mormonism: Assuming an afterlife exists, the baptized deceased are free to say yes or no as they please. Finally, Mormons come to the temple to receive their endowment, a ritual ceremony where followers make promises to God and receive knowledge about God.

Unlike a cathedral, which is primarily composed of one large worship space, a Mormon temple has a variety of smaller rooms that serve different purposes. There are sealing rooms and rooms for men and women to change into white clothes (every male or female Mormon who enters a dedicated temple wears the same white clothing) and instruction rooms where individuals learn about God in preparation for receiving their endowments.

It was in these rooms, and the final Celestial Room, where I caught a glimpse of God.

You see, as part of our final stop on the tour, our guide took us to a room with a mural of the Missouri countryside painted by a local artist. The room had earthy colors, browns and greens and rows of cushioned seats. This was the first instruction room. From there, we took a step up -- as if ascending closer to heaven -- and entered a second room, similar to the first in shape and size but all white. This was the second instruction room. When we left that room, we took another step up and entered the Celestial Room, a space designed to give those who sit in it a foretaste of heaven.

It was a simple room yet ornate at the same time, all white with sparkling crystal chandeliers, large mirrors, and plump sofas and chairs reminiscent of those that must have existed in Joseph Smith's day. Our guide asked us to be silent and said we were welcome to sit wherever we liked and take a moment to pray. So I sat down on a sofa that seemed to envelop me, folded my hands on my lap and closed my eyes.

Like Dante, who saw God face to face but had no words to describe the encounter, I have few words to describe what I felt in that moment. But I can say this: While it did not convert me, nor did it make me want to be a Mormon, the silence and peace I felt reminded me of the many other times I've felt close to God, whether in an Episcopal cathedral, in a clear, warm ocean or in my ratty old car. And because of that, I came to understand why temples exist and why they are so important to Mormons across the world.

And along the lines of Mormons being across the world: As I wrote earlier, Mormons were ironically driven out of Liberty, Missouri and the surrounding region nearly 175 years ago. It cannot be lost on those who visit the new temple that almost two centuries later, Mormons are often still held in suspicion by society, but they are far from being as vulnerable as they were in their early years. They are building stronger foundations every day, and striving, as they do so, to catch a glimpse of heaven.


TOPICS: Ecumenism; Other Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: ecusa; femalebishop; lds; ldstemples; mormon; mormonhatersclub; mormonpropaganda; openhouse; religiousleft; wehatemormons
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To: cva66snipe; Jeff Head
 
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 89
 
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.
 
1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.
 
  1 A aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
  2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
  3 Given for a principle with apromise, adapted to the capacity of the bweak and the weakest of all csaints, who are or can be called saints.
  4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of bconspiring men in the last days, I have cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
  5 That inasmuch as any man adrinketh bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
  6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
  7 And, again, astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
  8 And again, tobacco is not for the abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
  9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
  10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
  11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with aprudence and bthanksgiving.
  12 Yea, aflesh also of bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used csparingly;
  13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or bfamine.
  14 All agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
  15 And athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
  16 All grain is good for the afood of man; as also the bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
  17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
  18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ashall receive bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;
  19 And shall afind bwisdom and great ctreasures of dknowledge, even hidden treasures;
  20 And shall arun and not be bweary, and shall walk and not faint.
  21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the adestroying angel shall bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.



351 posted on 04/27/2012 4:44:27 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian; Jeff Head

I’ll take issue with one point.

Because they believe in Latter Day prophets, anything said 150 years ago can be overturned at any time. So instead of telling Jeff what he believes, perhaps you should ask him.


352 posted on 04/27/2012 5:16:27 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: AppyPappy
Thy have Appy, and I have replied many times here on FR, and even placed a page on my own site regarding my witrness of faith...but they cannot accept my own witness since itr does not fit with what they say and what they know I must believe, so I am therefore a deceiver, misguided, a liar, purposefully crafting my words to fool others, etc., etc.

It's really, at least IMHO, quite sad...but they have their right to their own slant on things and I do seek God's blessings on each of them, and anyone else for their own witness and faith in Christ Jesus, even if it differs in some points of doctrine from my own. Good to talk to you, hope and trust you and yours are well and I sincerely hope we can turn our nation around, building on 2010 here in 2012 and particularly removing Obama from the White House. God's speed. BZ

353 posted on 04/27/2012 6:33:16 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: AppyPappy

I am so glad my God is forever.
I would be so confused if He were changing his mind all the time, wouldn’t know what I was supported to do or how to behave.
So much easier to have a consistent God Almighty, rather than one who is imperfect so that He has to change His mind because He made mistakes before.


354 posted on 04/27/2012 11:22:15 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

Genesis 6
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them. ”


355 posted on 04/27/2012 11:32:44 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: AppyPappy
So instead of telling Jeff what he believes, perhaps you should ask him.

What HE believes is irrelevant. What the LDS religious organization has PUBLISHED is not.

356 posted on 04/27/2012 11:56:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: AppyPappy
Because they believe in Latter Day prophets, anything said 150 years ago can be overturned at any time.

You have got THAT right!!




In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.


1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)

357 posted on 04/27/2012 11:58:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
Does this then show you the believers intended to go home?

You show no evidence to the contrary. The text indicates that these jews were from all over. Since Pentecost is one of the three mandatory feasts (see Exodus 34:23-24), it is most likely that they were going to head back to their homes and business since Luke made such an emphasis of WHERE they had come from.

44And all the believers met together constantly and shared everything they had.

LOL, now you have to resort to hyperliteralism. Come on snipe, use a little common sense. Since the focus is upon the startings of Christianity, the focus is upon the main body in Jerusalem, just doesn't pay attention to those who left after pentecost.

If you want to argue about those who spoke greek - remember that greek was the broadest accepted language of the time and Hebrew was very restricted in many aspects at that time.

Skipping redundant straw

I do not know the full reason for the persecution except it is foretold the believers were to be scattered. Staying in Jerusalem after Pentecost was not the instruction given.

What happened snipe? Are you now realizing that the persecution was NOT directed by the Holy Spirit as you claimed? Or perhaps Jesus prophesied that in his instructions in Acts? And note - there was nothing regarding a specific time line - so you are arguing out of silence whether they could have stayed in Jerusalem AFTER pentecost for a period. LOL, just what I posted a lot earlier. Well, good to see you finally coming around to what I was trying to point out.

358 posted on 04/27/2012 12:35:20 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: AppyPappy

Genesis 6, is about sin, death and redemption.
God is consistent: sin causes death, their is redemption available.


359 posted on 04/27/2012 12:47:53 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Jeff Head; AppyPappy
. . . . .but they cannot accept my own witness since itr does not fit with what they say and what they know I must believe, so I am therefore a deceiver, misguided, a liar, purposefully crafting my words to fool others, etc., etc.

Actually Appy, the issue is that the wordsmithing being used does not match the actual teachings of the doctrines of mormonism - from their doctrinal sources. One doesn't need to go anywhere else.

Thus we have the continual attempt to nail jello to the wall. We get an amorphous "witness" of one's belief that really says little or nothing beyond the mandatory "the church is true and smith is a prophet" etc etc. They like to use words like , "Jesus", "atonement" and "salvation" - but insert mormon definitions behind their use - definitions contrary to Christianity which they also try to claim.

360 posted on 04/27/2012 12:48:25 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Elsie
Words I did not post you tried to put me as saying "....where God Himself had to correct Peter’s behavior ???" "

your replyGet thee behind me, Satan!"

I want there too be no misunderstanding here. I said in post 292 the following

"Peter's deeds or policies toward unconverted Jews and his still hanging on to being Jewish. Galatians 2 tells what happened. Paul had to correct Peters behavior."

Here are the verse I was referring to

11But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him publicly, speaking strongly against what he was doing, for it was very wrong. 12When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who don’t bother with circumcision. But afterward, when some Jewish friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore because he was afraid of what these legalists would say. 13Then the other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was influenced to join them in their hypocrisy. 14When I saw that they were not following the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter in front of all the others, “Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you trying to make these Gentiles obey the Jewish laws you abandoned? 15You and I are Jews by birth, not ‘sinners’ like the Gentiles. 16And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ—and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law.”£

I will assume you innocently misquoted me.

Now GOD did in Acts tell Peter {from the sheet with unclean food being lowered to him and told to eat"} that the Gentiles were clean and he could associate and minister to them but that was not what I was referring to.

361 posted on 04/27/2012 1:13:40 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Godzilla

Well, I’m a Methodist. Obviously, I differ with the church’s teachings.


362 posted on 04/27/2012 1:16:27 PM PDT by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: Elsie
How do we know THIS?

Acts ch 7 v 57Then they put their hands over their ears, and drowning out his voice with their shouts, they rushed at him. 58They dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. The official witnesses took off their coats and laid them at the feet of a young man named Saul.£

Or the KJV same verse 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Yes I know The Word Game you are fixing to play. Paul had their clothes or do you wish to dispute that as well. It was the same Saul as Paul Chaprt 8 v 1 1Saul was one of the official witnesses at the killing of Stephen.

Saul the name of Paul before conversion.

363 posted on 04/27/2012 1:23:57 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Elsie
I never knew so many OTHERS folks lived within a mile or so of me. (It's all flat here, with maybe a 10 foot change in elevation over a mile.)

I own about 30 acres of a ridge. It rises over 300ft elevation from lower part too upper at the top of the ridge or 450 ft off the valley floor. From my living room I'm looking out over a valley below me and the ridge behind me at my back window. Up on top of the ridge at the property line I can see two mountain ranges the Cumberlands to my north and Appalachians to my east. I can see into North Carolina, Virginia, Kentucky, likely upper Georgia as well. But to see north it has to be in the winter.

364 posted on 04/27/2012 1:32:58 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Elsie
You probably like OTHER meat; right? Be glad you ain't a WORTHY Mormon, who has a Temple Recommend! They are not supposed to eat MEAT in warm weather! Right, Jeff?

Oh my goodness. I can understand the rule for likely when it was written. Just like I can understand a lot of the old laws of Moses for when they were written. Most were health related. A wonderful invention has happened called modern refrigeration making long term meat storage safe. Before that you had to use salt {pretty unhealthy in such quanities} or let the unused portions rot {a waste}.

365 posted on 04/27/2012 1:37:25 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: AppyPappy
Well, I’m a Methodist. Obviously, I differ with the church’s teachings.

I know, preaching to the choir . . . .

366 posted on 04/27/2012 1:38:10 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla

Having fun? What you are saying and what I was saying are STRICTLY difference in how we read it. I believe there were Jews at Jerusalem for The Pentocost from many nations. Now Who left and Who stayed? In my understanding the ones who heard the message and rejected it left. Others which believed it likely far less in number than those who rejected the mesasage and those believers stayed and became part of that community. If the ones who left did not believe no spreading of The Gospel by them.


367 posted on 04/27/2012 1:44:40 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe
I will assume you innocently misquoted me.

Nope.

I merely remembered one spot where GOD (Jesus) rebuked Peter.

I didn't pay any attention to whom had actually typed the thing I was replying to.

368 posted on 04/27/2012 3:19:11 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
Yes I know The Word Game you are fixing to play.

I guess I should have emphasised the VERY part of the young man statement.

369 posted on 04/27/2012 3:20:55 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
I can understand the rule for likely when it was written.

I can't.

The 'rule' still stands as SCRIPTURE!

And ANYONE who possesses a MORMON Temple Recommend SWEARS that they follw the rule; do they not?

(#11)


 

Temple Recommend Questions



1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

370 posted on 04/27/2012 3:23:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
Others which believed it likely far less in number than those who rejected the mesasage and those believers stayed and became part of that community. If the ones who left did not believe no spreading of The Gospel by them.

Conjecture.

371 posted on 04/27/2012 3:25:17 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
I guess I should have emphasised the VERY part of the young man statement

If he were older he would have helped in the stoning. IOW at that time holding no position as elder within his Temple. He likely would have been of Temple legal age of accountability most likely what is it 12 or 13? I can't remember off the top of my head.

372 posted on 04/27/2012 4:33:10 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe; Elsie

Words I did not post you tried to put me as saying

(quoting Nana) “....where God Himself had to correct Peter’s behavior ???” “

your replyGet thee behind me, Satan!”

Now GOD did in Acts tell Peter {from the sheet with unclean food being lowered to him and told to eat”} that the Gentiles were clean and he could associate and minister to them but that was not what I was referring to.
____________________________________________________

However that is what I was referring to...


373 posted on 04/27/2012 4:39:29 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: cva66snipe
Hanging on to a grudge which has been asked to be forgiven is like a cancer and it festers and takes over.

OK...I give up. (You lost me)

Who's hangin' onto any grudge?

(1) I'm not ex-Mormon;
(2) MY Lds family/relatives are dear people whom I love -- none have offended me re: any relational interactions

Do you just go around judging complete strangers' personal inward motivations?

374 posted on 04/27/2012 4:40:31 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Elsie
So do you eat Pork? It says in scripture not too. No actually James and the elders tells us what Gentiles can and can not eat.

Acts ch 21 25“As for the Gentile Christians, all we ask of them is what we already told them in a letter: They should not eat food offered to idols, nor consume blood, nor eat meat from strangled animals, and they should stay away from all sexual immorality.”

I'm pretty certain at a family reunion in the summertime I saw my cousins who are LDS eating hamburgers. In this family it's that, sandwhich meat, or don't eat at events like that. LOL

375 posted on 04/27/2012 4:46:36 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Colofornian
OK...I give up. (You lost me) OK...I give up. Who's hangin' onto any grudge? Do you just go around judging complete strangers' personal inward motivations? Who's hangin' onto any grudge?

HUH? Look I was simply talking about and making a point about forgiveness requirements in The Bible and not about you. I was replying to what was posted in 335 related to forgiveness. I was simply saying why it is important and implied no other meaning to anyone person in general.

376 posted on 04/27/2012 4:57:03 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe
Now Who left and Who stayed?

a question you are unable to answer

In my understanding the ones who heard the message and rejected it left.

I never knew Luke was the author of Second Opinions.

If the ones who left did not believe no spreading of The Gospel by them.

Again, wheres the proof? there is nothing that required them to remain in Jerusalem. Being mobile, they could have taken the light of the gospel revealed to them with them back to their homes intending to return again. Once again, you have to argue against Luke and his extensive listing of the countries from which the visiting Jews were from.

But keep trying snipe buddy. There is nothing incompatible with these initial converts going home shortly afterwards and the church being forces out of Jerusalem a couple of years later into the surrounding nations.

377 posted on 04/27/2012 6:17:26 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla
The Bible says palinly how many believed. It says plainly.

Acts chapter 2

41Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church—about three thousand in all. 42They joined with the other believers and devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, sharing in the Lord’s Supper and in prayer. 43A deep sense of awe came over them all, and the apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders. 44And all the believers met together constantly and shared everything they had. 45They sold their possessions and shared the proceeds with those in need. 46They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord’s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity—47all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved.

So where did the others who were there that did not believe them go? Likely home. Keep in mind they came too observe a Jewish tradition and not too hear what they heard.

There is nothing incompatible with these initial converts going home shortly afterwards and the church being forces out of Jerusalem a couple of years later into the surrounding nations.

Yes there is but you just want to argue about it. One thiong is staying in communication. It wasn't like hey let's call Brother Peter. Where people went too they walked. Time, Distance, and Communications meant everything. Do you ignore chapter 6 and the problems which were beginning to happen within the believers community? It shows Jews from different nations still there even as far away as Greece. The Bible shows us this was a fast growing community. On to Chapter 8 what does it say about Stephens death?

A great wave of persecution began that day, sweeping over the church in Jerusalem, and all the believers except the apostles fled into Judea and Samaria. 2(Some godly men came and buried Stephen with loud weeping.) 3Saul was going everywhere to devastate the church. He went from house to house, dragging out both men and women to throw them into jail.

4But the believers who had fled Jerusalem went everywhere preaching the Good News about Jesus. 5Philip, for example, went to the city of Samaria and told the people there about the Messiah. 6Crowds listened intently to what he had to say because of the miracles he did. 7Many evil spirits were cast out, screaming as they left their victims. And many who had been paralyzed or lame were healed. 8So there was great joy in that city.

378 posted on 04/27/2012 6:41:19 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe
Again, hyperliteralism. But then at least you are over the doctrinal divide issue as well as the Holy Spirit punishing the church. Again, were you to closely study Acts, you will find that the first 12 chapters have the center of the Church still in Jerusalem and witnessing to Judea and Samaria. It doesn't really expand further until Chapter 13.

It shows Jews from different nations still there even as far away as Greece.

LOL, you forget that the Greeks maintained an extended period of control on Israel. Many had returned ancestral homeland after the diaspora who's primary language was Greek. Fact is that these Hellenists and Hebraists had their own separate synagogues in Jerusalem long before the start of the church. Hint - this was long, long before the beginning of the church.

379 posted on 04/27/2012 8:16:29 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla
From the time of Pentecost to Stephens death is likely 2-3 years tops. Paul's conversion was around 35 AD. Stephens death? 34? Stephen was possibly of the Hellenists. The events in ACTs at least through chapter 8 were the earliest day with the Disciples being sent out in chapter 8 starting with Phillip sent to Gaza being the first of the 12 to start preaching in places away from Jerusalem after Pentecost. Chapter 8 is where the church gets dispersed. Persecution is the main reason stated for the spreading of The Gospel beyond Jerusalem and it was by the early believers who fled. I'll show it in scripture.

Now as for you saying that I said The Holy Spirit "Punished" them? I said no such thing. Here is my words.

But looking deeper were the chosen twelve immediately after The Resurrection doing what they were actually told in The Great Commission? Not really. They were staying in Jerusalem living and dwelling with each other until the death of Stephen which began the persecution in earnest and which resulted in The Gospel reaching far places. The Shepherd was struck and the flock scattered. The Disciple and Apostles as well were corrected by The Holy Spirit.

Notice the . in the sentences between The Shepherd was struck and the flock scattered. and then I posted The Disciple and Apostles as well were corrected by The Holy Spirit. I did not say The Shepherd was struck and the flock scattered because The Disciple and Apostles as well were corrected by The Holy Spirit. The Persecution came because of the Temple Leadership, The Roman leadership, and later a man named Saul of Taurus. When the persecution happened what happened next? There's Phillip lead by The Holy Spirit. Read from Act ch 8 v 4 on through the chapter. The Disciples left Jerusalem. This lead to what? Many more missions.In Chapter 9 Peter is staying a long time in Joppa. Chapter 9 Peter is on the Med Sea coast in Caesarea .

Chapter 11 v 19Meanwhile, the believers who had fled from Jerusalem during the persecution after Stephen’s death traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch of Syria. They preached the Good News, but only to Jews. 20However, some of the believers who went to Antioch from Cyprus and Cyrene began preaching to Gentiles£ about the Lord Jesus. 21The power of the Lord was upon them, and large numbers of these Gentiles believed and turned to the Lord.

What would have happened had the believers not left Jerusalem? Were or were not the Disciples lead by The Holy Spirit to go to into different places rather than simply establishing the church in Jerusalem ? Thus a correction.

Why the needed correction? Several things. There was some misconceptions at first as to when Christ was returning. Some thought for example the Disciple John would not die before Christ returned. John Ch 21 v 22-23 that is discussed. I think John was likely the last to die though as his death is in the 90's AD.

I think I have with scripture shown what I have said. I believe if The Gospel was being spread by ones who were at Pentecost and left The Scriptures would say so. The references to I see The Gospel spreading outside Jerusalem have to do with the persecution beginning with Stephen.

Also Chapter 1 they were clearly told to stay in Jerusalem till when? Then they were to do what?

Acts ch 1 1Dear Theophilus: In my first book£ I told you about everything Jesus began to do and teach 2until the day he ascended to heaven after giving his chosen apostles further instructions from the Holy Spirit. 3During the forty days after his crucifixion, he appeared to the apostles from time to time and proved to them in many ways that he was actually alive. On these occasions he talked to them about the Kingdom of God. 4In one of these meetings as he was eating a meal with them, he told them, “Do not leave Jerusalem until the Father sends you what he promised. Remember, I have told you about this before. 5John baptized with£ water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” The Ascension of Jesus 6When the apostles were with Jesus, they kept asking him, “Lord, are you going to free Israel now and restore our kingdom?” 7“The Father sets those dates,” he replied, “and they are not for you to know. 8But when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, you will receive power and will tell people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Though an act of Jewish rulers the persecution brought the Gospel out of Jerusalem and Israel. From that point on The Holy Spirit was bringing change within the churches and the chosen Disciples and Apostiles.

380 posted on 04/27/2012 10:44:41 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe
If he were older he would have helped in the stoning.

Again; conjecture.

381 posted on 04/28/2012 5:09:36 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
So do you eat Pork? It says in scripture not too.

To WHOM was this LAW given?

Jews or Gentiles?

The MORMONs received THEIR 'law' from GOD himself (read their 'scripture')


Do not try to change the subject to what I should or should not do.

382 posted on 04/28/2012 5:12:22 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
I'm pretty certain at a family reunion in the summertime I saw my cousins who are LDS eating hamburgers.

No doubt you did. But; did they have Temple Recommends?

Worthy MORMONs (self described) admit to being part time vegans.

383 posted on 04/28/2012 5:14:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
The Bible says palinly how many believed. It says plainly.

But you are trying to suggest what the bible did NOT say: where they were FROM.

384 posted on 04/28/2012 5:15:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
corrected

Is another way of saying punishment snipe - look it up. Jerusalem and Peter were the core of evangelism through chapter 12. With chapter 13 that shifts to Paul and the greater roman empire.

Following the pattern Jesus laid out in Acts 1

Keep trying snipe

385 posted on 04/28/2012 7:51:18 AM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla
LOOK TROLL if a teacher corrects an error a child does on a project is that punishment? If a parent says Billy I want you to stop running so you don't get hurt is that punishment? If a parent says I told you to go to bed and I didn't tell you to go play is that punishment? No it is correction and you TROLL know it is. I'm not playing anymore of your childish games Troll. You’re a post twisting Troll using typical TROLL posting tactics and I don't play. Now Get Lost!
386 posted on 04/28/2012 12:05:56 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Elsie
The Bible says where they came from.

Acts Ch 2 7They were beside themselves with wonder. “How can this be?” they exclaimed. “These people are all from Galilee, 8and yet we hear them speaking the languages of the lands where we were born! 9Here we are—Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people from Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, the province of Asia, 10Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, and the areas of Libya toward Cyrene, visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism), 11Cretans, and Arabians. And we all hear these people speaking in our own languages about the wonderful things God has done!” 12They stood there amazed and perplexed. “What can this mean?” they asked each other. 13But others in the crowd were mocking. “They’re drunk, that’s all!” they said.

And as I have pointed out a post or two ago The Bible says The Gospel initally was spread to more distant areas by those who had fled after Stephens death. Of course I know you still have more too say.

387 posted on 04/28/2012 12:13:52 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Elsie

The best thing I can tell you for your own mental health sake is if you don’t like what Mormons believe then stay out of their church and don’t bother them and they will likely do likewise for you.


388 posted on 04/28/2012 12:15:56 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Elsie
To answer you question I say this too you. Where is it in The Bible to eat fish on Friday? Yet one church has practiced this for years. You confuse church living standards or standards of conduct with law.

It's been a while since I read the OT laws especially the ones related to what was allowed to be eaten etc. Some OT laws applied to Jews, some to Jews and those living in their household, and even included their animals. Too broad a subject to go into piece by piece.

You are taking some things way too the extreme. I know of a church very popular in this nation. It believes in the manifestation of spiritual gifts. They believe ones salvation is proved by the person speaking in tongues. Are they Christians? Yes. misguided but Christians. Some of that sect still believe members in their church are given prophecies. You likely know it as The Church of GOD. Services and church policies can vary greatly from church too church. You want to go condemn them all? You disagree then stay away from them and leave them be. GOD through The Holy Spirit in time will bring correction but likely not you.

389 posted on 04/28/2012 12:30:28 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Elsie
No doubt you did. But; did they have Temple Recommends? Worthy MORMONs (self described) admit to being part time vegans.

OK Here is your answer in scripture.

Romans ch 14 14I know and am perfectly sure on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong. 15And if another Christian is distressed by what you eat, you are not acting in love if you eat it. Don’t let your eating ruin someone for whom Christ died. 16Then you will not be condemned for doing something you know is all right.
17For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God. And other people will approve of you, too. 19So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up.
20Don’t tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, there is nothing wrong with these things in themselves. But it is wrong to eat anything if it makes another person stumble. 21Don’t eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another Christian to stumble. 22You may have the faith to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves by doing something they know is all right. 23But if people have doubts about whether they should eat something, they shouldn’t eat it. They would be condemned for not acting in faith before God. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.

Elsie even The Apostles did some things in their time for example shaving ones head which is not generally practiced today. But I believe what Paul says on meat and food should apply to the rest of our lives. Any church rules a church may ask of members would be like a Monastery having a requirement of something say perhaps silence?

Older and Modern Christianity has had practices many have done even related to eating or something in their life that were acceptable including fasting which is not necessarilly giving up all food but rather a specific food for example. Many churches practice it. Is that not part of what some sects call Lent?

390 posted on 04/28/2012 1:11:46 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe
LOOK TROLL

Sigh, having to denigrate yourself to name calling. It becomes a punishment when the means used in the correction are punitive. Telling a boy not to run is not the same as killing people, I mean you should even be able to figure that out. BTW, you will find "correction" listed as an euphemism for punishment.

BTW snipe, I'll post and comment on whatever I see fit. A typical troll tries to bully into silence - and that is what your words are attempting to do.

391 posted on 04/28/2012 4:46:30 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla
I never said The Holy Spirit killed or harmed anyone in the Persicution. The Jewish Leaders did it. Afterward came a correction and no I do not mean in the punishing sense but instructing and guidance sense as I have stated now several times.

Most persons except for a TROLL take a persons word especially after a clarification. You of course took a second definition even after I clarified now didn't you. Just so you could continue to TROLL.

Most reasonable persons take a clarification {several actually} as just that. Trolls Don't or rather TROLLS WON'T. Instead a Troll will come right back with the same accusations which they twist, they lie about what you meant, and they say but you meant this when plainly after several clarifications they did not. That is about as TROLL as Troll gets. Which is just what you are doing. That makes you a Troll.

By correction I meant instructing, leading, guidance, tell someone one hey do this instead. But again you knew that.

Just like a TROLL you get on one point and stay there. Then when your hand is called it's I'm trying to bully you? My Oh My LOL. Poor Widdle Troll. Your Bullying didn't work on me TROLL. Bye Troll.

392 posted on 04/28/2012 5:46:19 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe
I never said The Holy Spirit killed or harmed anyone in the Persicution. The Jewish Leaders did it. Afterward came a correction and no I do not mean in the punishing sense but instructing and guidance sense as I have stated now several times.

Yep, parse that sentence. You indicated that the Holy Spirit caused the persecution because the church was still in Jerusalem. Thus, by causing the persecution - the Spirit killed or harmed people - your context from the start.

But when you can't win by the force of argument, name calling is what you resort to. Well, just shows your character snipe.

393 posted on 04/28/2012 7:07:22 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: cva66snipe
And as I have pointed out a post or two ago The Bible says The Gospel initally was spread to more distant areas by those who had fled after Stephens death.

Yet you are trying to say that the BELIEVEING ones stayed in Jerusalem.

Which is it?

394 posted on 04/28/2012 7:12:45 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
The best thing I can tell you for your own mental health sake...

Me bein g nutty as a fruitcake does NOT the FACT that MORMONism is a heresy that needs to be exposed.

Surely; as a BIBLE believeing Christian you agree with that; right?

395 posted on 04/28/2012 7:14:51 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
The best thing I can tell you for your own mental health sake...

Me being nutty as a fruitcake does not CHANGE the FACT that MORMONism is a heresy that needs to be exposed.

Surely; as a BIBLE believeing Christian you agree with that; right?

396 posted on 04/28/2012 7:15:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
Where is it in The Bible to eat fish on Friday? Yet one church has practiced this for years.

Not my problem. Please stay on subject: MORMON HERESY.

397 posted on 04/28/2012 7:16:28 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: cva66snipe
Once again, you try to blur the line between Christianity and MORMONism.

The bible (and you referenced it) had a sheet full of all kinds of things to eat.

Joseph Smith, a MORMON Living Prophet® (the FIRST one) said in Doctrines & Covenants Section 89:12-13 (and I quote):

  12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
  13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

 
Pleasing to WHOM?  GOD  (the MORMON one)
 
 
Compare to the Bible:
 
Acts 10:9-15

9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.  11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

398 posted on 04/28/2012 7:33:33 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
I am saying that for the most part yes the believers were pretty much in Jerusalem until the persicutions began. This was the beginning of the spreading of The Gospel to further places on a broad scale.

Acts ch 11 19Meanwhile, the believers who had fled from Jerusalem during the persecution after Stephen’s death traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch of Syria. They preached the Good News, but only to Jews. 20However, some of the believers who went to Antioch from Cyprus and Cyrene began preaching to Gentiles£ about the Lord Jesus. 21The power of the Lord was upon them, and large numbers of these Gentiles believed and turned to the Lord. 22When the church at Jerusalem heard what had happened, they sent Barnabas to Antioch. 23When he arrived and saw this proof of God’s favor, he was filled with joy, and he encouraged the believers to stay true to the Lord. 24Barnabas was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and strong in faith. And large numbers of people were brought to the Lord.

Or KJV

Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Going back to Acts chapter 2

41Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church—about three thousand in all. 42They joined with the other believers and devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, sharing in the Lord’s Supper and in prayer. The Believers Meet Together 43A deep sense of awe came over them all, and the apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders. 44And all the believers met together constantly and shared everything they had. 45They sold their possessions and shared the proceeds with those in need. 46They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord’s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity—47all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved.

Now KJV

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Yes I believe until the death of Stephen those added to the church at Pentecost remained in Jerusalem. The Persicutions which began that day drove the believeras out of Jerusalem and into neighboring cities and nations. Looking further The Disciples seemed to have their hands full taking care of them.

Acts chapter 6

1But as the believers rapidly multiplied, there were rumblings of discontent. Those who spoke Greek complained against those who spoke Hebrew, saying that their widows were being discriminated against in the daily distribution of food. 2So the Twelve called a meeting of all the believers. “We apostles should spend our time preaching and teaching the word of God, not administering a food program,” they said. 3“Now look around among yourselves, brothers, and select seven men who are well respected and are full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom. We will put them in charge of this business. 4Then we can spend our time in prayer and preaching and teaching the word.” 5This idea pleased the whole group, and they chose the following: Stephen (a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit), Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas of Antioch (a Gentile convert to the Jewish faith, who had now become a Christian). 6These seven were presented to the apostles, who prayed for them as they laid their hands on them. 7God’s message was preached in ever-widening circles. The number of believers greatly increased in Jerusalem, and many of the Jewish priests were converted, too. Stephen Is Arrested 8Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed amazing miracles and signs among the people. 9But one day some men from the Synagogue of Freed Slaves, as it was called, started to debate with him. They were Jews from Cyrene, Alexandria, Cilicia, and the province of Asia. 10None of them was able to stand against the wisdom and Spirit by which Stephen spoke.

Read the issues the disciples faced. I think the verses pretty well say where the believers were staying. At Stephens death the believers scattered and because they scattered The Gospel spread to further places. This era from Pentecost to Stephen's death was short. I've looked at several time lines and it could have been two years or as many as 4-6.

Paul's conversion by some sources was 35 AD. Meaning by that time was fairly short from the Pentecost to persicution.

399 posted on 04/28/2012 8:02:15 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Elsie

The post I made in 361 refering to Peter’s vision of the sheet had NOTHING to do with eating it had to do with showing Peter to accept & minister too the Gentiles and I said so in that post and you know I did.


400 posted on 04/28/2012 8:22:13 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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