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Mormonism: A Latter Day Deception
Mormon Deception.org ^ | Martin Wishnatsky

Posted on 04/26/2012 1:32:13 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

What the world calls "Mormonism" will rule every nation.
God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it.

Chief Apostle Orson Hyde
Journal of Discourses, VII, 48-53

Mormonism is neither a fraternal order nor a religious association: it is a kingdom, the kingdom of God. In the words of Joseph F. Smith, sixth Prophet of the Church:

The greatest event that has ever occurred in the world, since the resurrection of the Son of God from the tomb and his ascension on high, was the coming of the Father and the Son to that boy Joseph Smith, to prepare the way for the laying of the foundation of his kingdom — not the kingdom of man — never more to cease nor to be overturned.

The kingdom "never more to cease nor to be overturned" is the messianic kingdom foreseen in the second chapter of the Book of Daniel:

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Stated Church historian B.H. Roberts:

We are warranted in the belief, however, that it will be a tangible, bona fide government of God on earth, consisting of a king; subordinate officers; laws; subjects; and the whole earth for its territory - for its dominion.

History of the Church, Vol. I, Intro. p. xxxvi. The Mormons equate this kingdom as well with the words of Revelation 11:15: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ: and He shall reign forever and ever."

"The kingdom is organized," wrote Brigham Young in 1844, "and although as yet no bigger than a grain of mustard seed, the little plant is in a flourishing condition and our prospects brighter than ever." Id., Vol. VII, p.381—Note. Few Americans comprehended the magnitude of the political expectations of the Mormons. "As was observed by Brother Pratt, that kingdom is actually organized and the inhabitants of the earth do not know it," stated Brigham Young on July 8,1855. "If this people know anything about it, all right; it is organized preparatory to taking effect in the due time of the Lord, and in the manner that shall please him." Id.

Joseph Smith, capitalizing on the fervor for primitive Christianity that animated the American frontier in the 1820's and 1830's, claimed that Jesus Christ Himself had chosen him to restore His original ceremonies, build up a Church to greet Him at the Second Coming, and rule the earth during the Millennium. "Flee the wrath to come" and "gather to Zion" were the watchwords of Mormon missionaries in the early days. "The missionary was confident the end of the world was hourly approaching," wrote one observer, "that soon the earth and all therein, except such as embraced Mormonism, would be destroyed, and his benevolence made him use extraordinary exertions to bring the human race within the pale that he assured them could alone save them from impending destruction." William White Smith, The Prophets (1855).

Although the Mormons argue that the church of God will be distinct from the government of God during the Millennium, this is true only in the sense that the communist party of the Soviet Union was different from the government of Russia after the revolution of 1917. Brigham Young did say that the "kingdom grows out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but it is not the church." He also said, however, that "no one can draw the line between the government of God and the government of the children of men." History of the Church, Vol. VII, p.382; April 9, 1844. In fact, although non-Mormons may participate in the rulership of the millennial kingdom, the Mormon priesthood will control its organization and administration. The kingdom of God and the church of God will both be run by the Mormon Church - under the direction of Christ, who will pass freely back and forth "through the veil" during this period.

"What I mean by the kingdom of God," wrote Joseph F. Smith in October, 1906, "is the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, over which the Son of God presides, and not man. That is what I mean." On another occasion he said, "I know that this is the kingdom of God and that God is at the helm." It is such claims that inspired Apostle Parley Pratt to say of Joseph Smith: "His work will live to endless ages. Unnumbered millions yet unborn will mention his name with honor." Grieving at the blindness of humanity in failing to recognize the nascent kingdom in their midst, Apostle Ezra Taft Benson wrote in 1948: "The history of humanity has, to a large extent, been one of groping blindly in the dark, fearing for the future and yet resisting the guiding hand of inspired men who would willingly lead mankind in the path of safety." Forward to W. Cleon Skousen, Prophecy and Modern Times (1948). At the head of the path stands Joseph Smith, holder of the keys of salvation — "keys which will unlock the door into the kingdom of God to every man who is worthy to enter and which will close that door against every soul that will not obey the law of God." It can hardly be expected that Christ will allow the governance of His kingdom to rest in the hands of those who refuse to acknowledge His chosen medium of salvation. "No man or woman in this dispensation," declared Brigham Young, "will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." Journal of Discourses 7:289.

Well known and often cited within the church is the utterance of Joseph Smith that "the day will come when the Constitution of the United States hangs by a thread — and will be saved only by the elders of the Church." One student of Mormonism phrased this expectation somewhat differently: "They are promising their followers," wrote Bruce Kinney in 1912, "that they will in time control things politically in the United States." Mormonism: the Islam of America. Mormon political activity is rooted in the assumption that the day is coming when the American political system will collapse and the hierarchical apparatus of the Mormon Church will take its place. The Mormon Church, in this sense, is a shadow government — like the ayatollahs of Iran — only awaiting the Biblically-predicted chaos that shall sweep away American democracy and install Mormon theocracy in its place — to reign forever, "never more to be overturned." A commonly-cited scenario envisions the inevitable degeneration of the godless American polity into the anarchy envisioned by Christ in his discourse on the Mount of Olivet: "Nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom . . . . Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents and cause them to be put to death." Mark 13:8, 12.

Joseph Smith added his own personal vision to this prophecy: "I saw men hunting the lives of their own sons, and brother murdering brother, women killing their own daughters, and daughters seeking the lives of their mothers."

The principle of "gathering to Zion as God pours out His wrath" is fundamental to Mormonism. Current policy is that Mormons should stay in their own localities, not migrate to Salt Lake City, but "build up Zion" where they live. When the time comes, however, the Prophet shall summon all Mormons everywhere to gather in to Salt Lake City for shelter while the Great Anarchy sweeps the globe. After the Great Wrath, Christ Himself shall return, appearing first in a Mormon Temple in Independence, Missouri on a plot of ground designated by Joseph Smith for this purpose. This Temple shall be the centerpiece of a holy city, the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21, which shall surround it and become the new capital of Mormonism. From it the world shall be ruled as the Mormons who fled to Salt Lake City for protection return to their hometowns and home lands as rulers and organizers of the new and everlasting theocratic kingdom. Although Christ will also appear in Jerusalem to organize the repentant and worshipful Jews into the Millennial Kingdom, the real seat of world government will be the New Jerusalem in Missouri. The two capitals will be formally co-equal, but the New Jerusalem will be the source of power, much as the Disney Corporation is to Disneyland. The new Jewish kingdom will require instruction, guidance and ultimately subordination to the Mormon authorities, for he who receives authority from another is subservient to the giver of that authority. The Jews can only receive the authentic priesthood of God from the Mormons, and therefore, must be beholden and obedient to them.

Yes, the messianic kingdom described by Isaiah is already here in embryo in Utah; the Jews shall be part of it - indeed, it cannot achieve its fullness until they do — but they will not rule it. That question was decided in 1820 when Christ appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the Keys of the Millennium. In the 1830's one dramatic day Moses and Elijah also came to visit and invested the Prophet Joseph with their authority as well. "And it shall come to pass in the last days," reads Isaiah 2:2, "that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." In the annotated Mormon edition of the Bible, the mountains here are the Rocky Mountains and "the Lord's house" is the Salt Lake Temple. "For out of Zion shall go forth the law" continues Isaiah, supposedly referring to the Mormon capital, "and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem," the Jewish capital.

The Mormons have quite a message for Messianic Jews — quite a message — and someday, no doubt, if they get their hands on the levers of power, they will attempt to deliver it — first as protectors of the Jews and then as their rulers.

Before the Church became a national institution and began to soften and obscure its publicly-displayed doctrines, the inevitable consolidation of all earthly power into the hands of the Mormon authorities was clearly understood. "The understanding," related Bishop Cahoon in his testimony, "was that God had established His Kingdom upon the earth, and the Mormon Church was the Kingdom of God, and all that belonged to the Mormon Church were expected to yield allegiance to that church, to that Kingdom alone, and the highest allegiance was to the Mormon Church — the Kingdom of God." An oath administered in the endowment ceremony at that time committed the priesthood to "avenge the blood of the prophets" and teach this doctrine to their children and their children's children. The Church "taught," testified Bishop Cahoon, "that this government would be overthrown, and the Kingdom of God be established on its ruins . . . . They didn't care much about the government of the United States when they had a kingdom." The comparable oath that I took in the Mormon Temple in Washington, D.C., in August, 1981 had no political overtones but did commit me to pledge all my time talent and treasure to the upbuilding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Such an oath does not leave much room for any other loyalty.

The official establishment of the government of God as distinct from the government of the Church took place in 1844 when Joseph Smith organized a secret Council of Fifty as the ruling politburo of the kingdom of God. This council encompassed non-Mormons, including Joseph Jackson, who, by his own report, was offered $3,000 by the Prophet to kill the governor of Missouri. In the days before the authority of the United States government became effective in Utah, the Council of Fifty, according to church historians Leonard J. Arrington and Davis Bitton, "began deliberations on the nature of civil government to be established in the valley." Having ruled the Salt Lake valley directly through the church, Brigham Young and his associates now decided to establish a civil government subsidiary, nominally independent of the church, called the State of Deseret. On March 8,1849, three days after the opening of the constitutional convention, a standard state constitution of the time was adopted — and an election scheduled for two months later to select officers for the new state. Ballots, however, were actually cast four days later on March 12,1849 — somewhat limiting the amount of campaigning any independent candidate might undertake. Brigham Young won the office of governor and Heber C. Kimball chief justice, both winning 100% of the ballots cast for their respective offices. The election of the temporal government of the Kingdom of God had as much resemblance to a free election as the elections conducted by the governments of Eastern Europe in 1946. This procedure was deliberate. "Every government lays the foundation of its own downfall," declared Brigham Young in 1872, "when it permits what are called democratic elections." "Remember," said the church authority who interviewed me for my worthiness to become a Mormon priest, "the Church is a theocracy, not a democracy." Any government the church creates, it creates in its own image.

All power lies with the Prophet who is God's representative on earth; his word is law. As the Prophet is to the Church, so the Bishop is to the local ward. Unlike the rabbi of a Jewish congregation, who is dependent upon the favor of the synagogue for his position, the Bishop is chosen and installed solely by his ecclesiastical superiors. The notion of "division" or "separation" of powers is anathema to Mormonism.

The members of the ward are sternly enjoined to "sustain the authorities" for this is the "only true" church of God and the officers of it God's chosen — selected by "inspiration" after "prayerful consideration," and installed by the laying on of hands. To dispute the church authorities is to defy God. And who would do that?

Thus, it is not surprising that, given the occasion and the opportunity, the Mormon hierarchy will create a civil government in the image of their church government — elections by acclamation and zealous obedience the essence of virtue. The popularity of military careers for Mormon youth is a direct outgrowth of the inculcation of these principles. That the Mormons fully expect to rule the United States and the world as well one day is, of course, a political hallucination that could never happen. If so, however, it may be expected that they will formally reverence the U.S. Constitution while simultaneously abolishing the division of powers, based on mistrust of all unchecked human authority, that underlies it. A portion of Bishop Cahoon's testimony, given in 1889, expresses the sentiments that still reign in the minds of the Mormon authorities:

Q. Did they ever teach you anything in regard to the overthrowing of the Constitution of the United States, did you ever hear that at all?

A. The Constitution of the United States would be, perhaps, an after consideration; after the government was overthrown the leaders of the Mormon Church would reform that document to suit themselves.

Q. Did you ever hear them say that the document needed reforming?

A. O, yes.

Q. You never heard it taught that that was a Divine Document?

A. O, yes, they taught that it was an inspired document, but that it would be better - eventually it would be better.

Q. Who was going to better it?

A. The priesthood of the Mormon Church.

Q. When?

A. Well, when they got it in their hands.

Q. When was that going to be?

A. Well, directly, it has been put off from time to time. They say it is pretty near now.

Q. State when and where you heard it.

A. Heard it all the while, ever since I was in the church.

To obscure the fundamental incompatibility of Mormon doctrine with democratic politics, Brigham Young made the remarkable statement: "The Constitution and laws of the United States resemble a theocracy more closely than any government now on earth." Journal of Discourses 6:342. He came slightly closer to the truth in the following statement:

Few, if any, understand what a theocratic government is. In every sense of the word, it is a republican government, and differs but little in form from our National, State, and Territorial Governments; but its subjects will recognize the will and dictation of the Almighty . . . .

Id.

There is no room for legitimate disagreement in Mormonism. Anyone who questions church practices is considered to have lost his faith in revealed truth. Such an individual must speedily repent and humble himself, begging forgiveness or he will be excommunicated. A man named Morris had the effrontery to establish his own mini-Mormonism in Utah in the days of Brigham Young, claiming to receive instructions from God as did the Mormon prophet. Brigham sent his "avenger" on horseback and shot the fledgling prophet dead in broad daylight in the presence of his followers. John Taylor, successor to Brigham Young as Prophet, made it clear that the Mormons envision no separation of church and state once they take power.

Was the kingdom that the Prophets talked about, that should be set up in the latter times, going to be a Church? Yes. And a state? Yes, it was going to be both Church and State, to rule both temporarily (sic) and spiritually.

When Utah became a state and began to elect Senators and Congressmen, some question arose as to whether a Mormon Senator would consider himself bound by his oath to support the Constitution and laws of the United States, or whether his endowment oaths of supreme loyalty to the Church would prevail. John Taylor answered as follows:

It may be asked, How can we live under the dominion and laws of the United States and be subjects of another kingdom? Because the kingdom of God is higher, and its laws are so much more exalted than those of any other nation, that it is the easiest thing in life for a servant of God to keep any of their laws and, as I have said before, this we have uniformly done.

Journal of Discourses 6:24. The Mormon leadership fully expect the American government to collapse as a prelude to their assumption of power on the American continent. "When the Lord commands it through his living prophets," writes a BYU faculty member in the June, 1976 Ensign, "the New Jerusalem will become the capital city . . . ." The Constitution will then become the responsibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "It is not wise to sit by and think that the protection of the Constitution is the problem of someone else at some other time," warns the Ensign. "Our commission to save the Constitution is, like salvation, a continuing task." Should the Mormon apparatus ever come to power in the United States during a period of inner turmoil, this country will become a white tyranny, the ecclesiastical mirror image of communism. "And this is the redemption of Zion," said Joseph Smith in 1841, "when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory."

The Mormons will come as saviors of the constitution, firm-willed virtuous patriots full of love for God and country. Their ecclesiastical autocracy will come wrapped in the evocative symbolism of constitutional purification.

But, of course, it could never happen here. Joseph Smith was but twenty-five years of age, full of the fire of youth, when he donned the mantle of prophethood: Brigham Young was forty-seven. There has not been a prophet under the age of sixty since. The Church is a mature businesslike institution that discourages excessive fanaticism. Its doctrines have been softened and blended to have as wide an appeal as possible. Tradition since World War II has chosen the oldest apostle for the office of Prophet. Of the five prophets since 1945, four were in their mid-seventies when chosen and the fifth over ninety. The current Prophet, Spencer W. Kimball, is eighty-seven: his two counsellors are eighty-four and eighty-five. The Church in many of its activities today displays a silly farcical spirit — a spirit I always found offensive but now view as inherent in a company of religious play actors. Gordon B. Hinckley, who was recently elevated from the Council of the Twelve Apostles to be a third counsellor to the Prophet, was active in the 1970's as an adviser to the Public Communications Department — the Church's propaganda agency. [In 1995, Hinckley became the 15th President and Prophet of the Church.] He worked, in particular, on the "subject content" for the Washington, D.C. Visitor's Center, which is attached to the Temple.

In the Washington center, life-size mannequins representing Isaiah, Nephi, Joseph Smith, and other prophets will speak their messages from the scriptures. With translucent masks and hidden rear projection, the figures will speak as living oracles.

Ensign, August, 1974.

One does not associate such Disneyland techniques with traditional religious solemnity. They remind one more of Revelation, Chapter 13: "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Whether the Wizards of Mormon will one day install a humanoid mannequin as prophet is beyond my power to foresee. Whether or not a young ambitious technocrat prophet will be able to simulate the second coming of Christ and gather an ocean of white-robed believers to the templed Missouri hills to witness the inauguration of the Millennium is also beyond my power of prediction. A visit to the Hill Cumorah pageant staged every summer in Palmyra, New York to commemorate and re-enact Joseph Smith's discovery of the golden plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon will keep interested observers of the Millennial Kingdom up to date on the state of the art in religious pyrotechnics, while we wait patiently for the Mormon "rendezvous with our Constitution's destiny." Ensign, June, 1976.



TOPICS: Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichristian; inman; lieslieslies; mormon; romney
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
as mentioned before besides the money, 80-90% of door knockers were the Mormons. As much as I am very a happy that any organization you listed contributed--especially the Roman Catholic Church--as it all matters, the Mormons took the big commitment with not only money, but time and gonads in going door to door. If you add up all the organizations besides them in that capacity it would make up only 10-20 percent.

I think that anyone that supported Prop 8 is a hero and fighter for the Lord. Yet credit should be given where credit is due.

The Mormons fought hard for the law of the Lord on earth.

51 posted on 04/26/2012 3:21:40 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: GOP Poet

“I was not wrong.”

You were absolutely and totally wrong.
You stated that the mormon church were the “only ones”.

Clearly, they were not the “only ones”.

Only and many are exclusive statements.

In other words, your statement is categorically false.


52 posted on 04/26/2012 3:25:16 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: Jeff Head
So, sorry, the idea that the LDS CHurch is bent on or planning to "take over" the US Government and re-write the constitution is a sham on its face

Your carefully worded "the idea that the LDS CHurch is bent on or planning to "take over" the US Government and re-write the constitution" has nothing to do with the various sourced comments by your church's leaders in the article. I doubt you even read it.

"When the Lord commands it through his living prophets," writes a BYU faculty member in the June, 1976 Ensign, "the New Jerusalem will become the capital city . . . ." The Constitution will then become the responsibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "It is not wise to sit by and think that the protection of the Constitution is the problem of someone else at some other time," warns the Ensign. "Our commission to save the Constitution is, like salvation, a continuing task."

Should the Mormon apparatus ever come to power in the United States during a period of inner turmoil, this country will become a white tyranny, the ecclesiastical mirror image of communism.

"And this is the redemption of Zion," said Joseph Smith in 1841, "when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory."

53 posted on 04/26/2012 3:26:50 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

What state do you reside in?


54 posted on 04/26/2012 3:27:51 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: Deb; greyfoxx39

No dislike of mormons, exposing of mormonism.
Based on your statements, you apparently know nothing of mormonism or greyfoxx39.
As a side note this is the religion forum.
As a side note this is a discussion of mormonism.
As a side note if you have a dispute about the words of mormonism, post them rather than attacking/disparaging the poster.


55 posted on 04/26/2012 3:28:57 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

Yeah, right.


56 posted on 04/26/2012 3:29:15 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: GOP Poet; aMorePerfectUnion
Thank you GOP for reciting the SLC lds propaganda that the New York Times repeated.

The mormons fought hard for the law of the lord on earth.

Which lord would that be? Oh, yea and when was that?

57 posted on 04/26/2012 3:32:06 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Deb

This is the religion forum.
This is discussion on mormonism.
This is exposing mormonism, nothing else.


58 posted on 04/26/2012 3:33:19 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: GOP Poet

“What state do you reside in?”

Would it matter? Either your claim is true of false.

As it turns out, it was false. The falseness of your
claim is not influenced by my residence. I demonstrated
it is false by what I posted, posting facts that the
mormonic group was not the “only” group that had the
“gonads” to oppose Prop 8.

All that remains is for you to demonstrate your character
and admit your exaggerated or overstated your claim.

Conservatives man up when they are wrong. Usually,
quickly.


59 posted on 04/26/2012 3:34:27 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: GOP Poet

Then where were they when one of their bishops approved his same sex marriage in MA - if they are the ONLY ONE? Did I miss where they openly condemned him since they are supposedly ‘so active’/or the ONLY ONE in this area.

Somewhere there is a major conflict.


60 posted on 04/26/2012 3:34:59 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Deb
They would never mount a neverending assault on another religion

HAH!

We find it hilarious that you mormonism defenders get your underwear in a knot about the posting of factual mormon doctrine from mormon sources by a few dozen FReepers at the same time that your leaders are bragging about the following:

We are grateful for the 52,225 full-time missionaries serving in more than 150 countries.16 The sun never sets on righteous missionaries testifying of the Savior mormon church. Think of the spiritual power of 52,000 missionaries, endowed with the Spirit of the Lord Joseph Smith, boldly declaring that there is “no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come … , only in and through the name of Christ. mormon church temple rituals

"My young brethren of the priesthood, I testify of the majesty, but most of all, of the certainty of this magnificent event. The Savior lives. He will return to the earth (the Second Coming) . And whether on this side of the veil or the other, you and I will rejoice in His coming and thank the Lord that He sent us to earth at this time to fulfill our sacred duty of helping prepare the world for His return the mormon theocracy

."other people, who may not yield full obedience to his laws, nor be fully instructed in his covenants, will, nevertheless, have to yield full obedience to his government. For it will be the reign of God upon the earth, and he will enforce his laws, and command that obedience from the nations of the world which is legitimately his right” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor [2001], 225).

Preparing the World for the Second Coming-LDS.org, April 2011

Anyone who believes that Romney isn't fully immersed in this doctrine and the Law of Consecration is a fool: The Law of Consecration is considered by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be a "celestial law." That is, people who are living lives dedicated to the service of God, such that at judgment they would be assigned to the Celestial Kingdom, should be able and expected to live the Law of Consecration. The Law of Consecration is that, if necessary or requested, a person would give everything he has for the building up of the Kingdom of God on Earth. He would be willing to wholeheartedly give of his time, talents, and resources. Thus, the person is "consecrating" all his personal resources to the Lord.

“The law of consecration,” said Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “is that we consecrate our time, our talents, and our money and property to the cause of the Church; such are to be available to the extent they are needed to further the Lord’s interests on earth.” Mormon Temple Covenants



61 posted on 04/26/2012 3:35:27 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: svcw
Were you out knocking on doors and giving boatloads of financial support to defend marriage as being between a man and a woman?

In reality in the real world this is what really happened. THe Mormon church gave all of that for the defense of marriage between just a man and woman. They fought hard against the marriage of gays and lesbians. That's reality.

62 posted on 04/26/2012 3:36:25 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: presently no screen name
Try to concentrate. I didn't say you were asking for anything. I asked you what you wanted. You spend all this time and anger "exposing" Mormonism and you accuse everyone who asks a question or makes an opposing statement of "defending" it, you must think some action should be taken. You must want something.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're happy to just rant and scream and hi-five each other in your little "Religion" playhouse. I didn't think it was out of line to ask what you wanted.

63 posted on 04/26/2012 3:36:25 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: greyfoxx39; cva66snipe
As the final scene plays itself out sometime just before Christ's 2nd coming, Joseph Smith did indicate in a speech shortly before his own death, that there would come a time when the US had weakened itself abroad when other nations would look upon the US with envy and seek to take her lands.

He indicated that a force of foreign nations would enter the country and seek to conquer it. That at some point half of the US military surrender and would give up, but that the other parts of the US Military and many of the people would continue fighting on.

At a point when things looked most dire, he indicated that the Lord, miraculously, through the Priesthood, would fight together with those forces fighting the enemy and would defeat them and thus save the nation and the Constitution.

Many people believe that, and refer to it, to this day. Members and leaders alike. But it is not cannonized in scripture, and is not taught as official doctrine of the Church.

Will it happen? We shall see. I believe that church members do and certainly will fight and die for this nation and the Constitution. God in Heaven and His Son are certainly capable of miraculously intervening and they have done so (IMHO) as regards this nation in the past.

So it certainly could occur just as Jospeh Smith spoke it. But he did not indicate that the Church or the Priesthood would take over the government and the Chuirch does not teach that in the least. It does teach that Christ will lead the government after His return and this is something that Christians universally believe.

Believing that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Church of Christ on the earth, we believe at that time, during the Millennium, He will use His church as a part of His governance. But that is also not unique to the LDS.

A humorous joke in this regard (which can be given either way...I will give the LDS version) goes as follows:

A Cardnial comes into the Pope and addresses His Emminance.

"Holy Father, we have excellent news, and not so good news of Christ's return to the Earth."

The Pope responds and says, "What is the good news, my son."

The Carnial says, "Jesus Christ has returned to the earth, Father."

The Pope joyfully claps His hands together, stand up smiling, and asks, "Well then, what could possibly be the bad news after new like this?"

The Cardinal responds, "We just got the call from Salt Lake City."
You can see how it would work the other way too.
64 posted on 04/26/2012 3:38:53 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
You clearly do not live in California. This is why you won't publish where you live. If you did live here you would know to show your face as a conservative and show up in public and in at huge financial cost could one destroy your career in some cases and in others (as was the case) people will publish your address as people that contributed money to a politically hot button issue as well as try to destroy you in way possible. (not unlike what the some of the posters on this thread are trying to do to Mormons.)

80-90% of the door knockers and contributing exclusively as an organization to the extent that the law's passage was turned around is the drivers of the passage of Prop 8 and yes in the end we can throw a bone to all those organizations that with the long list couldn't take the money over the top to win or provide more than 10 at best 20% of bodies to fight for the Lord.

I am Christian and a Roman Catholic and I admire and am very grateful for what the Mormons did for us Californians.

65 posted on 04/26/2012 3:42:46 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: GOP Poet

You said “the only ones” - not true.

In MA, not a word - why?

Oh and there is UT - yep


66 posted on 04/26/2012 3:44:31 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: greyfoxx39

It almost like you’re getting paid...


67 posted on 04/26/2012 3:48:40 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: Deb
I asked you what you wanted.

Now you concentrate - whether it hurts or not. Where did you read I WANTED ANYTHING!! That thought came from somewhere and it didn't come from me!!

You spend all this time

Tell me how much time I spent vs your time saying things that aren't true!!

"exposing" Mormonism

I can't expose what I don't know! You are wrong again - saying things that aren't true - you MUST be a mormon.

All I need to know about mormonism - is from a bishop of their's! Who is a KNOWN LIAR, when he breathes, he lies, he's a backstabber and His EVIL pro homo and his pro baby killing ways.

68 posted on 04/26/2012 3:52:19 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: svcw
You did not answer my question to you. So let me repeat.

Were you out knocking on doors and giving boatloads of financial support to defend marriage as being between a man and a woman? In reality in the real world this is what really happened. THe Mormon church gave all of that for the defense of marriage between just a man and woman. They fought hard against the marriage of gays and lesbians. That's reality.

69 posted on 04/26/2012 3:55:34 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: aMorePerfectUnion; cva66snipe

I am referring to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died on the Cross and paid for all of our sins and suffering, and who arose in a glorious resurrection the third day and who will return to this earth to rule and reign one day.

You know, the Jesus Christ, born of the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem, raised in Nazereth, completed His ministry in Judea, with many miracles and the preaching of His Gospel and selection of His dicsiples before he was unjustly judged, condemned and killed.

That one....and there is only One.

I have also explained in numeorous places what our theological belief in Him is as respects the Trinity and as indicated in the Holy Bible (”Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is Perfect”, at the Savior’s Baptism when all three seperate members of the God Head were present, at the mount of transiguration when the same occured, when the martyr Stephen saw God and His Son sitting “next” to one another, not occupying the same seat, etc.)

But the key thing is His atonement, His offering for our sins if we will accept Him and confess Him as Lord and Savior and the author of our Salvation.

You may go to great lengths to explain somehow that this is somehow a different person...but He is not. There is only one historical and spiritual indivdual and Son of God who meets this description and most reasoned people can see this.

The principles where we differ on the Trinity and their nature are things that do not detract from or lessen His Atonement in the least, which is required for all of our salveation.

So, APU, God bless you for your own faith in and belief in Jesus Christ the author of Salvation, even if we do not agree on some of the specifics.

He will judge us both and our hearts and He will know His own. I look forward to that day because I know in whom I trust, whom I witness of, and who has purchased and saved me...what His compassion, love, mercy and Atonement have done for me.

I will praise Him to my dieing breath as a result...with or without your approval or acceptance that somehow I do not know or worship Him. That interpretation of yours will not matter a whit when I stand before Him, and I look forward to the day I do so that I may water and clean His feet with my tears, whose buckles I am unworthy to so much as latch.


71 posted on 04/26/2012 3:58:28 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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Comment #72 Removed by Moderator

To: Deb
It almost like you’re getting paid...

It's a labor of love.

The Flying Inmans have been rebutting mormonism lies on FR for more than 5 years. Several of us including myself, have lived in the sect and know firsthand that your broad brush description of how wonderful, kind and moral individual mormons are is true of some but not all.

There is nothing good about the history of mormonism or about the so-called "prophet" who invented it.

So, we provide links to factual information about the corporation to warn others before they are entrapped.

Perhaps you should do a little investigating yourself. Start Here..click on the link Description

73 posted on 04/26/2012 4:02:38 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: presently no screen name
You are mentally ill. I never said, you said anything. I asked you what you wanted. I know you can read English so I asked you what your solution to the Mormon problem was. What should we do to combat this great evil?

Its okay to say, "I don't know" or "I don't want anything" or "I'm just part of the smashmouth group who's trying to get Obama re-elected by trashing Romney's religion".

You know, whatever.

74 posted on 04/26/2012 4:03:44 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: Deb

Agreed.


75 posted on 04/26/2012 4:05:54 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: greyfoxx39

Is there any reason it started 5 years ago and that you actually remember the time frame?


76 posted on 04/26/2012 4:08:04 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: greyfoxx39

or more specifically ‘more’ than 5 years ago?


77 posted on 04/26/2012 4:08:59 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: GOP Poet

“I am Christian and a Roman Catholic and I admire and am very grateful for what the Mormons did for us Californians.”

No doubt. You a Christian and a Roman Catholic and you made a false statement.

I’m happy you are also a conservative. It would be nice if you were a Christian conservative who also admitted when you are wrong, but that is not my concern. I demonstrated your statement is false and the rest is up to you.

best to you,
ampu


78 posted on 04/26/2012 4:14:23 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: greyfoxx39
I really am sorry for your bad experience in the church and I think the problem is your posts show up in the scroll on "Latest Posts". Your titles are usually so provocative that they beg a look and, of course, asking a question or making a statement is IMMEDIATELY met with anger and name-calling.

I've tried asking perfectly innocent questions before and gotten, "Mormon-Defender!!!", "Oh, I guess you believe Jesus and satan are BROTHERS!!!! Right??!!!"

Its a little strange, but I think its safe to assume you're doing this to prevent a Mormon President which I would completely understand.

79 posted on 04/26/2012 4:15:37 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: GOP Poet

You said “the only ones” and yes.


80 posted on 04/26/2012 4:19:48 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Jeff Head
Post #38

Just once, Jeff it would seem that you might actually read the posts on the thread.

You state: So it certainly could occur just as Jospeh Smith spoke it. But he did not indicate that the Church or the Priesthood would take over the government and the Chuirch does not teach that in the least. It does teach that Christ will lead the government after His return and this is something that Christians universally believe.

Read Post #38.

"“Eventually, however, the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters do the sea. But there will be need for the preaching of the gospel, after the millennium is brought in, until all men are either converted or pass away” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:86–87).

“In that great change, or resurrection, which shall come to this earth, it shall be sanctified, celestialized and made a fit abode even for God the Father, who shall grace it with his presence. ( D.C. 88:19 .) Then shall the righteous, those who have become sanctified through the law of God, possess it for ever as their abode. This earth is destined to become the everlasting residence of its inhabitants who gain the glory of the celestial kingdom. It shall become in that day like the throne of God and shall shine forth with all the splendor and brightness of celestial glory in its eternal, sanctified and glorious state” (Smith, Way to Perfection, 351). So Jeff, WHOOO will be those who gain the "everlasting residence of its inhabitants who gain the glory of the celestial kingdom?

The Millennium and the Glorification of the Earth

Joseph Smith taught that the WHOLE WORLD would be ruled by mormon elders and this is NOT "something that Christians universally believe."

81 posted on 04/26/2012 4:20:56 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
You are out of your mind. Any opinion you had about ANYthing would certainly be the opposite of reality.

I was not aware any group but the Mormons campaigned to stop Prop 8 and I live in L.A. The Mormons were the most vocal and took the brunt of the backlash from the gay/Marxist troops.

You need to calm down.

82 posted on 04/26/2012 4:22:34 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

God will deal with you. That I am assured.


83 posted on 04/26/2012 4:22:34 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: GOP Poet

The crazy train is pulling into my stop. Best of luck.


84 posted on 04/26/2012 4:25:21 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: Deb
Show me where I have ever said I hate mormons.

You Mormon-haters mormonism defenders are truly hysterical.

85 posted on 04/26/2012 4:27:53 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

Okay, thanks for playing!


86 posted on 04/26/2012 4:29:12 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: Deb
LOL...so you consider "mormon defender" to be name-calling??

I'd point you to some of the names we have been called by mormons in the past, but unfortunately they have been deleted.

Its a little strange, but I think its safe to assume you're doing this to prevent a Mormon President which I would completely understand.

Well, you got THAT right. I consider Romney as big a threat to the country as Obama AND mormonism a threat to the souls of all.

87 posted on 04/26/2012 4:30:06 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: Deb; greyfoxx39
They would never mount a neverending assault on another religion and, above all, they're all much better people than you and the others who attack them.

Don't know if you are a mormon Deb - but you don't know mormonism' foundations that still carry through to today. You blow past their PR front and their underlying DOCTRINE is that they are the only true church and that all other churches are apostate, of the devil and condemned to hell. Those are in the missionary teachings, their doctrinal standard works as well as the historic messages of their apostles and prophets.

Smith started the attack by calling all other churches apostate (first vision). In his book of mormon he lists mormonism as the only true church and the others the church of the devil (1 Nephi 14:10). In their doctrinal teaching manual "Gospel Principles" Ch 22 they still cite the "Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball" to say that what today's churches are "called Christianity". And that they are in and total darkness (Milton R. Hunter, “The Missionary Assignment,” Improvement Era, Dec. 1951, 920).

If you are a mormon Deb - if you are going to be honest, you need to admit that your 50,000 missionaries carry this message on a daily basis. That equates to a never ending assault on another religion. And if you are not - then study what Mormonism teaches as doctrine regarding non-mormonity and not the slick PR they put forth for public consumption.

88 posted on 04/26/2012 4:31:26 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Deb
Me thinks the trashing of Mormons and Mormonism on this website is without a doubt linked to Romney's run for President whether that be six years ago or five.

When one looks at what they contributed to save Californians' butts to save the definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman and fighting off gay and lesbian marriage, it is tragic to be that people that deem themselves 'conservative' or 'Christian' would chase away and spat at such an ally. I personally thank God for ally's in his name. Truly I do.

89 posted on 04/26/2012 4:32:51 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: svcw; aMorePerfectUnion; presently no screen name

Looks like time for a mormon shift change. ;0)


90 posted on 04/26/2012 4:33:42 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: svcw
I should have said, "Show me where I ever defended Mormonism". I'm a defender of my friends who are Mormon. I love them and they're amazing people. Its not okay to defend individual Mormons? You people on these threads are truly nuts.

So, now....Thanks for playing!!!

91 posted on 04/26/2012 4:34:24 PM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: Deb

:)


92 posted on 04/26/2012 4:35:59 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: SampleMan; greyfoxx39
Now tell me, which is worse as POTUS, a Mormon, a Muslim, or an athiest.

Must be one of those "would you rather me cut off your left arm or right leg" questions. All three groups have a strong anti christian agenda. They may attack from different angles but the goal is the same.
93 posted on 04/26/2012 4:37:04 PM PDT by pennyfarmer (Even a RINO will chew its foot off when caught in a trap.)
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To: Jeff Head
Again, Jeff, instead of a clear answer, you offer a carefully crafted half-truth. It is a pattern, as I've pointed out to you on at least 5 occasions now. A half-truth is a falsehood.
"That one....and there is only One."

Jesus Christ Himself says there will be false Christs. He would know. In fact, God records three times by the Holy Spirit the words of Christ that other, false Christs will arise.

If Jesus Christ Himself says it three times, and God the Father records it by inspiration of the Holy Spirit three times, we should believe there are false Christs.

Mark 13:6; 21-22 - Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible. So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

Matthew 24:24 - "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible."

Matthew 24:24 - "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible."

"But the key thing is His atonement, His offering for our sins if we will accept Him and confess Him as Lord and Savior and the author of our Salvation."

Jeff, a false Christ can't atone for anyone. The "His", "Him", you refer to (while apparently avoiding admitting who "He" is) is not the Biblical Christ, eternal God, never created nor made, but the mormonic Christ who is a created spirit being. As such, the created Christ cannot redeem himself, let alone another human.

"The principles where we differ on the Trinity and their nature are things that do not detract from or lessen His Atonement in the least, which is required for all of our salvation."

It is true that mormons do not accept the Biblical teaching of only ONE GOD - the key thing about Himself that He revealed to Israel. It is also true that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revealed as God - ONE God. No human ever becomes God. He is eternal and never-changing. A created Christ can not become God, nor atone for anyone.. So, the Bible disagrees with your claim that God's nature doesn't impact the atonement.

My understanding of mormon teaching is that if you are not considered worthy, you will never have the chance to meet God in person. You will be relegated to a lesser mormonic heaven. Jeff, you will NEVER be worthy. Ever. That is the whole point of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - the real one who is God. I don't doubt your sincerity at all. I don't doubt you have faith. Unfortunately, faith is only as good as the object of your faith. The object of your faith (you are going to great lengths to avoid truthfully describing here) is a created spirit being who became one of millions of mormon gods, instead of the one and only God, who can save.

The fact that you must carefully craft your responses here to avoid (seems the only possible reason) saying which Christ you believe in speaks volumes. I cannot read your mind. I can read your words - and the lack of forthrightness in your response.

94 posted on 04/26/2012 4:39:19 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: Godzilla
study what Mormonism teaches as doctrine regarding non-mormonity and not the slick PR they put forth for public consumption.

Well said!

95 posted on 04/26/2012 4:40:36 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: Deb

You are defending individual moromns? I missed that.
If you do not like the discussion on mormonism in the religion forum, stay off the thread.
I defend my mormon family and friends as well as individuals, mormonism I expose.


96 posted on 04/26/2012 4:42:53 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Deb
"You are out of your mind. Any opinion you had about ANYthing would certainly be the opposite of reality. I was not aware any group but the Mormons campaigned to stop Prop 8 and I live in L.A. The Mormons were the most vocal and took the brunt of the backlash from the gay/Marxist troops. You need to calm down."

Whether you were aware of it or not speaks only about you. The fact remains that many groups were involved. I've demonstrated that factually and with calmness.

You seem content only have ad hominem attacks and personal experience. That seems to be what mormons do. Are you wearing the magic underwears by any chance?

97 posted on 04/26/2012 4:43:38 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: Deb
Why can't this register? What's blocking the process? I asked you what you wanted.

I didn't ask for anything - so why are YOU asking what I want? Where did the idea come from?

Its okay to say, "I don't know"

IDIOT!! If I wanted something - I KNOW IT!! You really are one idiot poster. Did you wake up an idiot today or were you always like this. Or is it the mormon curse? And you can't answer where did that idea come from? LOL! Just repeat it like a robot.

"I'm just part of the smashmouth group who's trying to get Obama re-elected by trashing Romney's religion

You are the cult mentality with 'just part of'- not I. There is no getting him elected - the POS ROMNEY is GIVING it to him. Barry has ALL THE AMNO on Romney - ALL READY with his staff being busy for a year. So the maggot MORMON is responsible - for allowing Barry and all his thugs run rampant on America for 4 more years - DON'T be looking for others to blame like liberals do!

NEWT IS and WAS the ONLY HONEST Candidate - a WeThePeople Candidate and honesty is repellant to romney as is America/Our Constitution and THOU SHALT NOT KILL!

98 posted on 04/26/2012 4:43:52 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Deb
I'm a defender of my friends who are Mormon

Be sure and ping us when you come to the defense of your muslim friends.

It seems evident that it's perfectly OK with you that the mormons send out 52,000 missionaries every day to tell Christians that their faith is bogus and the only way to salvation is to join the mormon church and take part in arcane rituals in their temples.

Ask some of your mormon friends what goes on there...OR...

Click Here...and remember that not only your worthy mormon friends, but Mitt Romney have taken part in these rituals.

99 posted on 04/26/2012 4:47:11 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: GOP Poet

“Me thinks the trashing of Mormons and Mormonism on this website is without a doubt linked to Romney’s run for President whether that be six years ago or five.”

Most of the Flying Inmans have been posting the truth about the heresy of mormonism long before Willard ran the first time. We will be doing the same long after he retires to one of his homes.

“When one looks at what they contributed to save Californians’ butts to save the definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman and fighting off gay and lesbian marriage, it is tragic to be that people that deem themselves ‘conservative’ or ‘Christian’ would chase away and spat at such an ally. I personally thank God for ally’s in his name. Truly I do.”

When you used the phrase “spat on”, it sounded so much like our old friend, Saundra Duffy! Of course, she exaggerated as much as you just did.


100 posted on 04/26/2012 4:47:43 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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