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Parents: Donít Delay Baptism for your Infants!
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | April 22, 2012 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 04/27/2012 6:36:28 PM PDT by Salvation

BAPTISM

There is a trend that has set up for years now, and that is that Catholics are waiting many months to get their children baptized. I suspect that what we have here is a combination of a much lower infant mortality rate and, also, a less fervent practice of the faith by many. Further, there seems little sense among the faithful today that an unbaptized infant would be excluded from heaven.

As regards the last point, I think it is pastorally sound to trust in God’s mercy for infants who die before baptism. However, I do not think it follows that we ought to disregard or substantially delay a sacrament which Jesus commands, and which the Church indicates ought not to be delayed. The Code of Canon Law says the following:

Parents are obliged to see that their infants are baptised within the first few weeks. As soon as possible after the birth, indeed even before it, they are to approach the parish priest to ask for the sacrament for their child, and to be themselves duly prepared for it. If the infant is in danger of death, it is to be baptised without any delay. Can. 867 §1,§2

The Catechism also states: The Church and parents deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer baptism shortly after birth. (CCC # 1250) So it seems clear that a higher priority should be given to scheduling the baptism of babies within the first few weeks after birth.

Protestant practice departs from the received Tradition – Another factor for American Catholics is that many are influenced by the Protestants. Protestants, (though not all of them) disagree with our Catholic practice of baptizing infants. They usually wait until a child is between 8 and 12 to baptize,  reasoning that the child will know and understand what is happening and be able to claim Christ for themselves.

But, I hope you see the supreme irony of this in the fact that the Protestants, who so emphasize that salvation does not come from works, delay baptism on the grounds that the infant has not achieved (i.e. worked up to) the proper level of maturity. To know, requires one to learn, which is a work. And we Catholics, who supposedly teach salvation through works (we do not), baptize infants who can work no work.

Novelty – Indeed, the Protestant denominations (mostly Baptists (another irony), Pentecostals, Fundamentalist and Evangelicals) who refuse baptism to infants, engage in a novelty unknown to the Church until recent times.

It is a simple historical fact that the Church has always baptized infants. Even our earliest documents speak of the practice. For example the Apostolic Tradition written about 215 A.D. has this to say:

The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. (Apostolic Tradition # 21)

Scripture too confirms that infants should be baptized if you do the math. For example

People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. (Luke 18:15-17 NIV)

So the Kingdom of God belongs to the little children (in Greek βρέφη (brephe) indicating infants and little children still held in the arms, babes).

And yet elsewhere Jesus also reminds that it is necessary to be baptized in order to enter the Kingdom of God: Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5 NIV)

If the Kingdom of God belongs to little children, and we are taught that we cannot inherit it without baptism, then it follows that baptizing infants is necessary, and that to fail to do so, is a hindering of the little children which Jesus forbade his apostles to do. So both Tradition and Scripture affirm the practice of baptizing infants.

Many of the Protestants who do refuse infant baptism also water down (pardon the pun!) the fuller meaning of baptism, no longer seeing it as washing away sins and conferring righteousness per se, but more as a symbol of faith that they claim to have already received when they said the “sinners prayer” and accepted Christ as their savior. But what a tragic loss for them, since baptism and particularly the baptism of infants, says some very wonderful things about the complete gratuity of salvation and the goodness of God. Consider these points:

1. The baptism of infants is a powerful testimony to the absolute gratuity (gift) of salvation. Infants have achieved nothing, have not worked, have not done anything to “merit” salvation. The Catechism puts it this way: The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism. (CCC # 1250) The Church is clear, salvation cannot be earned or merited and infant baptism teaches that most clearly. Salvation is pure gift. How strange and ironic that some of the very denominations which claim that Catholics teach salvation by works (we do not) also refuse, themselves, to baptize infants. They claim that a certain age of maturity is required so that the person understands what they are doing. But this sounds like achievement to me. That the child must meet some requirement, seems like a work, or the attainment of some meritorious status wherein one is now old enough to “qualify” for baptism and salvation. “Qualifications….Achievement (of age)….Requirements….it all sounds like what they accuse us of: namely works and merit. To be clear then, the Catholic understanding of the gratuity of salvation is far more radical than many non-Catholics understand. We baptize infants who are not capable of meriting, attaining or earning.

2. The Baptism of infants also powerfully attests to the fact that the beauty of holiness and righteousness is available to everyone regardless of age. To be baptized means to be washed. Washed of what? Original Sin. At first this seems like a downer, “Are you saying my baby has sin?” Yep. All of us inherit Original Sin from Adam and Eve. We are born into a state of alienation from God that is caused by sin. The Scriptures are clear: [S]in entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned (Rom 5:12). So even infants are in need of the saving touch of God. Now why would we wish to delay this salvation and resulting holiness for 7 to 12 years? The Catechism says this,

Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by Original Sin, children also have need of new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and be brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God….The Church and parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer baptism shortly after birth. (CCC # 1250).

St. Cyprian Bishop of Carthage in the 3rd Century was asked if it was OK to wait to the 8th day to baptize since baptism had replaced circumcision. He respond with a strong no:

But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day We [the bishops] all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man. (Epist# 58).

So then here is the beauty, that infants are summoned to receive the precious gift of holiness and righteousness and that they are summoned to a right relationship with God by having their sin purged and holiness infused. Infants are called to this dignity and should not be denied it. With this done, some of the holiest and most innocent days of our lives may well be our first years. Then, as the will begins to manifest, and reason begins to dawn, the grace of holiness gives us extra strength to fight against the sinful world that looms.

3. The Baptism of Infants also attests to the fact that faith is gift for every stage of development- To be baptized is to receive the gift of faith. It is baptism that gives the true faith. Even with adults, true faith does not come until baptism. Prior to that there is a kind of prevenient faith, but it is not the Theological Virtue of Faith.

Now faith is not only an intellectual assent to revealed doctrine. It is that, but it is more. To have faith is also be be in a righteous and trusting relationship with God. An infant relates to his parents long before he speaks or his rational mind is fully formed. He trusts his parents and depends on them. It is the same with God. Thus the infant can well trust and depend on God and be in a right relationship with God, in an age appropriate way.

With his parents, his or her relationship of trust with parents, leads the infant to begin to speak and understand as he or she grows. It is the same with God. As the infant’s mind awakens, the infant’s faith grows. It will continue to grow until the day he or she dies (hopefully) as an old man or woman.

That faith accompanies us through every stage of our life, and develops as we do, is essential to its nature. An infant needs faith no less than an old man. An infant benefits from faith no less than a teenager or an adult. To argue, as some Protestants do, that you have to be a certain age before faith can exist, hardly seems to respect the progressive nature of faith which is able to bless EVERY stage of our human journey.

I have some very vivid memories of my experience of God prior to seven years of age and I will say that God was very powerfully present to me in my early years, in many ways even more so than now, when my mind sometimes “gets in the way.”

Too many Catholics are waiting months, even years to have their children baptized. Precious time is lost by this delay. Infant Baptism speaks powerfully of the love that God has for everyone he has created and of his desire to have everyone in a right and saving relationship with Him. Surely baptism alone isn’t enough. The child must be raised in the faith. It is the nature of faith that it grows by hearing and seeing. Children must have faith given at baptism but that faith must be explained and unwrapped like a precious gift for them.

Don’t delay. Get started early and teach your child the faith they have received every day.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: baptism; catholic; msgrcharlespope; sacrament; sacramentofbaptism; sacraments
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To: doc1019
Bull, nothing in the bible requires baptism for entrance into heaven. The only requirement is acceptance that Jesus is our Lord and savior

nonsense, baptism is clearly ordered in the bible. Your tagline explains a lot of what you don't understand.

101 posted on 04/28/2012 8:55:21 PM PDT by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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To: terycarl

Yes I do know that,Christ died,and both thieves still alive which is why they broke thier legs,,dont you read the Bible?


102 posted on 04/28/2012 9:19:23 PM PDT by Craftmore
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To: lightman

As the original sin is not one personally committed by the baby, he cannot repent of it.


103 posted on 04/28/2012 9:34:07 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Bellflower
Jesus delayed His until He was thirty

But not because His "confession of belief" was given Him from St. John or demanded of Him from St. John. In fact, His baptism was obviously not a believer baptism as He is the giver rather than the receiver of our faith, so if one wants to pattern the baptism after the baptism of Jesus, one would have to abandon the unbiblical idea of baptism as manifestation of faith already formed.

The baptism of Jesus is the sanctification of the Baptismal basin for of us. He never said "these waters are for adults who profess their faith"; but rather "it becometh us to fulfill all justice". Unless you are prepared to argue, with the Roe v. Wade babykillers, that "all justice" is bypassing babies, you have to admit that the baptismal font is for all men regardless of age.

104 posted on 04/28/2012 10:10:15 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Lakeshark; tumblindice; MD Expat in PA
If you think your child who only lived one hour is going to Hell because you didn't have it baptized before he/she died, you have no understanding of God at all.

Who exactly said that. No one did or does. What we do know is that Jesus Christ included Baptism in His plan of salvation and we also know that Jesus loved children and that God is merciful.

Nowhere do we Christians believe that unbaptised children are going to hell. We believe that our merciful God takes care of them

105 posted on 04/29/2012 12:01:50 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Turtlepower
There are some Biblical verses that seem to imply that water baptism is required for salvation, but there are many other verses that speak of salvation with no mention of water baptism.

Water is the medium through which the baptism takes place mostly. Why? God knows...

106 posted on 04/29/2012 12:03:25 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: annalex; lightman

It’s not “protestant” but one group. Our Lutheran brethern believe Christ’s words on baptism


107 posted on 04/29/2012 12:04:21 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Salvation
And yet the Bible tells us about the Ethiopian to whom Philip explained Isaiah.

The Ethiopian saays something like “There is some water, why can’t I be baptized right now.”

So in the book of Acts water was used.

I did not say that there is no water in any baptism...I said there was no water in THAT baptism...

Baptism does not mean water and water does not mean baptism...

And here is another salient verse when it comes to baptizing little children...

 Act 8:36  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

The answer to that question is the answer that apllies to everyone, including little children...Did Philip say that nothing hindered the Eunuch from being baptized???  No he did not...

The Eunuch and babies would be hindered from being baptized for the following reason:

Act 8:37  And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

You must believe with all your heart that Jesus is the Son of God before you may be baptized...No babies and no way around it...

108 posted on 04/29/2012 12:30:01 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: annalex
What sin is the baby supposed to be repenting of?

Exactly...Babies can not repent, ergo; no baptism for babies...

109 posted on 04/29/2012 12:32:40 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Salvation
U’ve sourced my material. What is your source.

Paul baptizes entire households. Do you think infants were also baptized? Of course they were.

Straight from the Bible.

You are making stuff up again...Have you no shame???

Under your premise, dogs, cats and goats were baptized as well...

Can you show a single verse in the entire bible where a baby was baptized???  Of course not...Are there any households that do not have babies???  Of course...

Is there scripture that shows that one must repent before being baptized???  Absolutely...

Your statement that your position is 'straight from the bible' is false...

110 posted on 04/29/2012 12:40:26 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: terycarl
WRONG there are zillions of babies in heaven because they were baptized....can't you read???

Read what???  What book do you have that says babies are in heaven because of baptism???  And don't tell me the Bible, because it's not in there...

111 posted on 04/29/2012 12:46:14 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: terycarl
oh, please...rules don't matter,??? Christ established a religion for a purpose...you don't get to make up the instruction book as you go along.

Your problem is that we have the instruction book, in our hands...We don't care about your religion's rules...They are meaningless in light of the scriptures...

112 posted on 04/29/2012 12:49:36 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: terycarl

“the new covenant did not begin until the death of Christ.That having been said, Christ (God) can do anything and to attribute one persons salvation to your opinion is a little questionable..”

Paul stated that Abraham and the prophets of old were saved by their faith. Paul himself lays down the case that the “new covenant” was in operation even before the “new covenant” was said “traditionally” to have been put in operation. The “new covenant” is a transtemporal concept sealed by the blood of Christ. Once his Death and resurrection had occured in our own measured temporal time, its effects sent ripples across time to include the faithful of old, the present and all those who would come in the future.


113 posted on 04/29/2012 1:51:31 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: Kent1957
When this was first brought up a couple thousand years ago Anabaptists were killed by the thousands for disagreeing.

Sorry, your post is wrong. The Anabaptists date only from the 16th century as a bunch who tried to go once step further than the 1st and 2nd generation reformers (Lutherans and Calvinists/Zwinglists respectively). They do not date back to Apostolic times

114 posted on 04/29/2012 1:52:47 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Iscool
You guys just make this stuff up...

No, we Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists etc.) do not make up stuff.

We believe in a Triune God, and that Jesus Christ is God. So whatever "you guys" want to believe in, whether Christ is just a prophet second to whatever "prophet" y guys follow, that's this minute cult's problem.

115 posted on 04/29/2012 1:54:59 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: HereInTheHeartland; Salvation
The Bible says nothing about an infant needing infant baptism to be a child of God. An infant is incapable of making any decisions for itself. Infant baptism has no bearing on an infants salvation.

Firstly, no one said or believes that you are not a child of God if you are not baptised. Even the heathen are children of God -- even Canaanites as they were created by Him.

Your salvation is from Christ, the same Christ who said He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16) , the same who said [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3), the same who said ,b>[H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54) and he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matt 24:13

It's not just saying "Lord, Lord", it's not just belief.

"Baptistm now saves.." through God's grace, through the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the same One who gave us the above commandments. Baptism plays a role in the salvic process as commanded by Christ. For infants who do not receive this, I personally believe that God takes care of the little ones, and the Church holds that God is merciful -- He never commanded for all exceptions, He commanded what we, the ones who grow to reason ought to do in our salvic process.

116 posted on 04/29/2012 2:00:59 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Bellflower

And “entire households” we baptised as well. Did they include children? Most probably — though I’ll agree with you that it is ambiguous.


117 posted on 04/29/2012 2:02:37 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: mdmathis6

“Once his Death and resurrection had occured in our own measured temporal time, its effects sent ripples across time to include the faithful of old, the present and all those who would come in the future.”

Your post reminds me of one gal’s (a physicist) theory on the Shroud of Turin that it was some time-space continuoum big-bang thing that created the energy that imprinted the shroud. (I probably messed that up, but something like that). But almost like a new “creation” event.

And I think that the main event would be the Resurrection - not so much the death of Christ. Obviously it takes both (”by His stripes we are healed” from the Passion), but I imagine the Power comes from the Resurrection. Otherwise he would just be another dead guy.


118 posted on 04/29/2012 2:16:13 AM PDT by 21twelve
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To: 21twelve

Well i don’t know about the “physics” part, but when reading that Christ raised the ire of the religious authorities by saying..”Before Abraham was ...I AM!,” it opened up in me the notion that time is an artificial concept...that God always exists in the NOW!


119 posted on 04/29/2012 2:57:02 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: Cronos; annalex
Children can believe in Jesus, even small children. The LORD clearly said we must have the faith of a child to be saved so, of course, a child can be saved. The point is that baptism is a response to saving faith, it isn't a rite unto salvation for those who cannot or do not believe. To think that you can sprinkle someone, anyone, with water, say a few words, and that makes them saved is contrary to everything the Bible teaches.

According to The Bible, parents, including Jesus' parents, dedicated their children to God. This was a way of agreeing with The LORD know that their children belonged to Him, and they were dedicating themselves to raising their children as His. All the Jews, including the ones who had Jesus crucified were as babies dedicated to God, so it is plain that dedication did not automatically save them. If they had been truly saved they would not have had Jesus crucified. Jesus would not have told many of them that their father was the devil.

The Bible says that when King David's baby died shortly after he was born that the child was in heaven. If a child dies before the age of accountability it is taken to heaven, by the sheer and utter mercy and grace of The LORD. Somehow He is able to apply Jesus' sin cleansing blood unto a child who dies, because the child is yet without accountability.

Heaven is likely full of children. Just think of all the children, from the beginning of time, who have died in the womb, or of starvation in third world countries, or have been too weak to make it having died early, or have been not wanted by heathen parents and set aside to die, or have been aborted. When Jesus said "for such is the kingdom of heaven", He may well have been referring, at least in part, to how very many children are up there.

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Mark 10:16 And he took them up in his arms, put [his] hands upon them, and blessed them.

120 posted on 04/29/2012 3:32:55 AM PDT by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: Iscool
And I agree with that 100 percent...However, there is no water in THAT baptism...

Baptism does not mean water and water does not mean baptism...Look it up if you don't believe me...

Thank you for giving me another opportunity to prove you wrong and the Catholic Church correct.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baptize?s=t

bap·tize   /bæpˈtaɪz, ˈbæptaɪz/ Show Spelled [bap-tahyz, bap-tahyz] Show IPA verb, bap·tized, bap·tiz·ing. verb (used with object)

1. to immerse in water or sprinkle or pour water on in the Christian rite of baptism: They baptized the new baby.

2. to cleanse spiritually; initiate or dedicate by purifying.

3. to give a name to at baptism; christen. verb (used without object)

4. to administer baptism.

Origin: 1250–1300; Middle English < Late Latin baptizāre < Greek baptízein to immerse ( bápt ( ein ) to bathe + -izein -ize)

If you want to take it a step further it means to "Whelm" which means to fully wet.

Piece of really sound advice here, when a Catholic tells you something that you disagree with, just assume that you don't have a clue and change your opinion to match their facts.

121 posted on 04/29/2012 4:30:23 AM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: Cronos
Baptism plays a role in the salvic process as commanded by Christ. For infants who do not receive this, I personally believe that God takes care of the little ones, and the Church holds that God is merciful -- He never commanded for all exceptions, He commanded what we, the ones who grow to reason ought to do in our salvic process.

So you are at odds then with the Catholic originator of this thread who puts fear into your crowd by  suggesting there are dire consequences for your child if he/she dies without baptism...

So much for your beleaguered Catholic unity...

122 posted on 04/29/2012 5:29:23 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: JSDude1
Because Baptism doesn’t save a person, no less an infant who doesn’t know what it means to be “born again”

Are you saved by God's will, his action, and his grace, or by your own knowledge?

123 posted on 04/29/2012 6:00:05 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Dallas59
Baptism does not save you.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ -- 1 Pt 3:21, KJV

124 posted on 04/29/2012 6:06:17 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Iscool
You must believe with all your heart that Jesus is the Son of God before you may be baptized...No babies

Phillip wasn't speaking to a baby, nor was he speaking of babies. You're trying to create general doctrine from a specific instance which doesn't necessarily apply.

125 posted on 04/29/2012 6:09:10 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: verga
Piece of really sound advice here, when a Catholic tells you something that you disagree with, just assume that you don't have a clue and change your opinion to match their facts.

Yup...Just throw the bible in the trash and believe a Catholic...LOLOL...I don't think so...

1. to immerse in water or sprinkle or pour water on in the Christian rite of baptism: They baptized the new baby.

You need to find a real dictionary...Baptize does not mean sprinkle...Baptize means 'immerse'...It doesn't mean water...

That's why John the Baptist said, 'Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

You'll notice that it doesn NOT say that Jesus baptizes with water and the Holy Ghost...

John the Baptist baptized with water, for remission of sins...Jesus baptized with the Holy Ghost, (not water) for the birth of the New Man...There is no water in the New Birth...

2. to cleanse spiritually; initiate or dedicate by purifying.

You'll also notice in your posted definition that baptism does not indicate water...It does however signify a cleansing...Not the cleansing of water but a spiritual cleansing that only the Holy Ghost can provide...

Definition of WATER 1 a : the liquid that descends from the clouds as rain, forms streams, lakes, and seas, and is a major constituent of all living matter and that when pure is an odorless, tasteless, very slightly compressible liquid oxide of hydrogen H2O which appears bluish in thick layers, freezes at 0° C and boils at 100° C, has a maximum density at 4° C and a high specific heat, is feebly ionized to hydrogen and hydroxyl ions, and is a poor conductor of electricity and a good solvent

Water does not mean baptize... A far better piece of sound advice would be for you to dump your catechism and buy a Bible and do some serious study...

126 posted on 04/29/2012 6:14:30 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: lightman; Salvation; Cronos; BlackElk
The divide on this thread, and a few others over the last week or so, is between those who truly believe in Original Sin, and those who view it as something a “nice” god would never consider.

The problem is that if you through out Original Sin, you start asking if you need God at all to be saved, or to say it differently, what is your theology on salvation?

It is coming apparent to me that a great many Evangelicals have no concept of Original sin, or just plain sin for that matter. Some of the Easter threads and discussions have been rather interesting. Everyone seems to want to make a nice idol of Buddy Jesus, who never is mean and never judges. They forget what the real Jesus did to the market outside of the Temple, or what God did to the Canaanites. God is not nice. He is Good. That is the biggest thing many don't understand. God's mercy is why we hope for salvation. God's justice is why we needed Jesus's death to even have that hope, and why we are all damned without it.

127 posted on 04/29/2012 6:38:16 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Iscool
Iscool table for one in the permanently smoking section, Do n’t worry I am certain you will become somewhat accustomed to the smell of brimstone over eternity
128 posted on 04/29/2012 7:52:17 AM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: Campion
Phillip wasn't speaking to a baby, nor was he speaking of babies. You're trying to create general doctrine from a specific instance which doesn't necessarily apply.

Sure it applies...The command is always, REPENT and be baptized...Babies don't repent...

Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If you believe not, you will be damned...Doesn't say a word about being damned for not being baptized...

129 posted on 04/29/2012 8:48:26 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: verga
Iscool table for one in the permanently smoking section, Do n’t worry I am certain you will become somewhat accustomed to the smell of brimstone over eternity

So that's the best refutation you can come up with, eh???  

Sorry Charlie, my testimony is and always has been that I have repented; turned to Jesus and made him MY Lord and Savior...I have been baptized with the Holy Ghost and have been baptized (immersed) in water for a public and personal show of my convictions...

What's YOUR testimony???

130 posted on 04/29/2012 8:54:43 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool
"Sorry Charlie, my testimony is and always has been that I have repented; turned to Jesus and made him MY Lord and Savior...I have been baptized with the Holy Ghost and have been baptized (immersed) in water for a public and personal show of my convictions..."

I am not going to debate your theology, only your hermeneutics, because you are asserting things with respect to Catholicism not supported by facts. Personally I find Baptism by immersion commendable.

Although Baptism (βαπτίζω) can mean immersion, it does not exclusively do so. It idiomatically also meant to ritualistically clean or even to dye. There are two versus in Scripture where it clearly did not mean to immerse. The first:

"Now when He had spoken, a Pharisee *asked Him to have lunch with him; and He went in, and reclined at the table. When the Pharisee saw it, he was surprised that He had not first ceremonially washed before the meal. But the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness." - Luke 11:37-39

The word used for wash was (ἐβαπτίσθη, aorist passive of βαπτίζω—literally, "be baptized") before eating.

The second:

"The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed.(For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)- Mark 7:1-4

Here too the word wash was literally, "baptize themselves" (βαπτίσωνται, passive or middle voice of βαπτίζω). We see additional evidence of the intended meaning to wash away sin when the word used was apolouo (ἀπολούω) in Acts 22:16.

Peace be to you.

131 posted on 04/29/2012 10:15:06 AM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: redgolum
The divide on this thread, and a few others over the last week or so, is between those who truly believe in Original Sin, and those who view it as something a “nice” god would never consider

The divide also fractures between the neo-Pelagians (most "evangelicals" who believe that you have to "do" something in order to be saved) and the orthodox catholics (intentionally lower case for both words) who trust God's grace and Christ's plain words.

132 posted on 04/29/2012 10:48:40 AM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
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To: Iscool
I am not sure what language you speak in your universe, but here in america we like to follow the plain text in English:

1Pe 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

1Pe 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

Jesus was baptised in the Jordan river with wait for it .........Water.......the exact same thing that the Didache calls for.Is there some part of that which is unclear to you? (That is really a rhetorical question sionce I know you will find some ignorant comment to use ignoring the facts.

133 posted on 04/29/2012 12:13:43 PM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: Natural Law
Although Baptism (βαπτίζω) can mean immersion, it does not exclusively do so. It idiomatically also meant to ritualistically clean or even to dye. There are two versus in Scripture where it clearly did not mean to immerse. The first:

I believe there is more than enough room for debate here...

Since the idea is to clean, it stands to reason that water is the medium...It also stands to reason that the hands had to be immersed or covered with water to achieve a sufficient cleaning...

Sprinkling 3 drops of water onto dirty hands will never do the trick...

134 posted on 04/29/2012 12:54:51 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Cronos; lightman
Our Lutheran brethern believe Christ’s words on baptism

Correct; as with any other issue, it is near impossible to generalize among all the Protestants. I believe, Presbyterians likewise baptize babies.

One thing is common to all Protestants: letting their pastors interpret the Bible for them, and that was the subtext of my admittedly aggressive in tone post.

135 posted on 04/29/2012 12:55:02 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Iscool
Babies can not repent, ergo; no baptism for babies

You understand, do you not that the point is not that a baby cannot repent (for example, because he cannot talk) but that he has nothing to repent about?

Logically, if babies have nothing to repent of, then they should be baptized without expecting repentance.

136 posted on 04/29/2012 12:59:16 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Iscool
"Sprinkling 3 drops of water onto dirty hands will never do the trick..."

That all depends on what it is you are trying to remove.

137 posted on 04/29/2012 12:59:43 PM PDT by Natural Law (The Pearly Gates are really a servants entrance.)
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To: Bellflower; Cronos
baptism is a response to saving faith

Where is that in the Bible? Mark 16:16, at least, implies that baptism and faith are at least to some extent independent. And besides, baptism is only possible if the parents of the child are of solid faith.

Heaven is likely full of children

No one on this thread argues otherwise.

138 posted on 04/29/2012 1:07:05 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: verga
I am not sure what language you speak in your universe, but here in america we like to follow the plain text in English:

Okay,  you don't have a testimony where you turned to Jesus and asked him to be your own personal Lord and Savior...

1Pe 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

 1Pe 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Nope...No one was saved thru water...They were saved by the water...In fact, they all stayed dry...Luckily, the boat floated...

And so what was that??? A baptism???  Of course not...It turns out for us to be a 'like figure' of a baptism...

Did they get wet???  Nope...And do we get wet in the baptism referred to here???  Nope...

In fact, Peter makes a distinction between getting a 'wet' baptism and a 'dry' one...

1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, 

No water...Baptism does not mean water, or a wet cleansing...

but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: No water in the good conscience baptism...It's a spiritual baptism...It's all in your mind, and soul, and spirit...

139 posted on 04/29/2012 1:18:31 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool

Baptism requries water since it literally means to wet. Show something different with a legitimate opinion. Use the orignal Greek I dare you.


140 posted on 04/29/2012 1:22:09 PM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: annalex
One thing is common to all Protestants: letting their pastors interpret the Bible for them, and that was the subtext of my admittedly aggressive in tone post.

I don't think you can say all...There are some denominations that will instruct you to search the scriptures to find out if the pastors are telling you the truth...Mine included....

141 posted on 04/29/2012 1:24:12 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool

That does not excuse your pastor. It is like a car mechanic that swindles you and says: if you don’t believe me, here is the service manual, fix your car yourself.

The fact remains that he is the one who went to a seminary to learn how to lie about the Bible and you did not. You are at his mercy.


142 posted on 04/29/2012 1:32:25 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Cronos
Our Lutheran brethern believe Christ’s words on baptism

Correct; as with any other issue, it is near impossible to generalize among all the Protestants

Which why the Bishop of Rome, now, and in his former life as Joseph Cardinal Ratizinger has been very careful and deliberate to speak and write of "Lutherans and Protestants"--recognizing that there are many significant distinctions.

For another: The Lutheran Confessions (Formula of Concord) explicitly name Mary as mother of God.

143 posted on 04/29/2012 2:35:25 PM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
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To: Salvation

Longest we ever waited was for #2 son. He was born on 9/23 in NJ, and we waited til we went home to MS at Christmas so his Priest-Uncle could baptize him.


144 posted on 04/29/2012 2:35:35 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Iscool; annalex
1Pe 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water: 1Pe 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

Annalex is correct you all basically mind numbed robots. Sure yeah go ahead search the scriptures until you disagree with him. then you are disfellowshipped or shunned till you: 1) decide to follow his dictates.

2)Find another cult of the personality to follow. Or this is the most common

3)Break off taking about 1/3 of the followers with you.

145 posted on 04/29/2012 2:46:31 PM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: lightman; Cronos

You are correct; indeed continuing Lutherans are in the league of their own and should not be swept up with the rest of the Protestants, especially their more recent versions and after the Joint Declaration of Faith cleared some old misunderstandings up. I apologize for being too polemical and imprecise.


146 posted on 04/29/2012 6:16:57 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: verga; Iscool

If the Protestant congregations really checked the Protestant foundational heresies against the Holy Scripture, no single Protestant would remain on this earth.

Baptism now saves thee.

This bread is my body.

Bishops rule the Church of God.

Forgive them their sins.

Open the scripture at random and find Catholic doctrine.


147 posted on 04/29/2012 6:20:43 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Campion
If that statement is true, then Jesus lied. Jesus was hung between two thieves, both of which were railing on Him. After observing Jesus for a while one of the thieves has a change of heart. With a repentant heart he calls upon Jesus for mercy. And Jesus answers him.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
A few minutes before this the thief was hurling verbal abuse on the Lord. He has a repentant heart and calls out to Jesus. And Jesus promises that he will be with Him in paradise that very day. The thief got saved but he was never baptized. The thief was nailed to the cross. Jesus did not say sorry you have to be baptized for your sins to be taken care of. No! Instead Jesus immediately promised him paradise with Him. The thief got saved and received eternal life with Jesus without Baptism. The thief is not the only one that got saved in the Bible without getting baptized.
If baptism was required for salvation, then Jesus would have said so. But He did not. Never. Lets look at what Jesus taught on how to get saved.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jesus clearly taught that salvation is by Grace thru faith.
148 posted on 04/29/2012 6:56:22 PM PDT by Dallas59 (President Robert Gibbs 2009-2011)
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To: All

Col 2:11-12 - baptism has replaced circumcision


149 posted on 04/29/2012 7:08:04 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
Colossians 2
11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ;
12 and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

150 posted on 04/29/2012 7:10:13 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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