Posted on 04/30/2012 7:51:06 PM PDT by wmfights
The Christian Church has been plagued by an infectiouss disease for centuriess.
Load them all up on trains and send them to camps, maybe?
What position is not wrong? What position is correct and some people are abusing it?
I have yet to meet and discuss theology with any dispensationalists who would disagree. I think where supersessionalists "miss the boat" is by assuming that because God has brought us to Him through His Son that the Jews aren't still in His plan and won't be converted. I believe the vehicle God uses to convert the Jews is the Tribulation.
I agree that in this dispensation God has blessed believers with the Spirit to help them conform to His will and most importantly God has forgiven our sins because of His Son. However, if you read Romans 11 it is clear that this mercy God has shown us has not ended His plan for Israel.
There are many believers of the Old Testament whom God called "righteous"; those were the saints whom Christ brought back with Him at His resurrection and those are the saints who will have exalted positions during the Millennial kingdom.
God's plan for salvation throughout all ages has been based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And nothing in Scripture indicates that God condemned anyone to hell - He provided salvation, and a person, just like now, either chose to accept that salvation or reject it.
I agree.
I think where most supersessionalists get confused is they believe dispensationalists are claiming that Jews have a path to salvation that does not include faith in Jesus Christ. I think they get there because of the Tribulation.
You might also wonder about peoples who never had Christ preached to them (typically unbelievers use this as a objection).
Read Romans chapter 1 - it describes why all are without excuse.
What was to constitute “Israel” was not going to be those such in the flesh but those that showed faith. No longer being Jew or Greek mattered since one would be part of “Israel” not by birth but by faith.
That was the point of Romans 9,10, 11 and Paul’s comments to the Galatians.
So just what is “His plan” for the nation of Israel today in the Middle East?
This puts that part of the replacement lie six feet under where it belongs:
Previously I overviewed most of the biblical covenants and examined each one to see if they are still in force today and if they are, how they relate to the church age believer. I have already surveyed all of the biblical covenants except the final one—the New Covenant, which I will seek to do at this time.
THE NEW COVENANT
The New Covenant (Deut. 29:4; 30:6; Isa. 59:20–21; 61:8–9; Jer. 31:31–40; 32:37–40; 50:4–5; Ezek. 11:19–20; 16:60–63; 34:25–26; 36:24–32; 37:21–28; Zech. 9:11; 12:10–14; Heb. 8:1-13; 10:15-18) provides for the yet future spiritual regeneration of Israel in preparation for the millennial kingdom. This is an unconditional covenant and is made between the Lord and the nation of Israel and has not yet been enacted for the nation of Israel. The New Covenant is predictive of Israel’s new spiritual condition that begins at the end of the tribulation and continues into and throughout the Millennial Kingdom.
Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the New Covenant for Israel:
"The announcement of the New Covenant begins with a declaration that it will be a Jewish covenant, for it will be made with both houses of Israel (v. 31). It will be in sharp contradistinction with the older Mosaic Covenant (v. 32). Of the five Jewish covenants, the Mosaic was the only conditional one. Although God had been faithful in keeping His terms of the covenant, Israel had not been so faithful, resulting in the Mosaic Covenant's being broken. For while the Mosaic Covenant showed the standard of righteousness which the Law demanded, it could never impart to the Jew the power to keep it. But that problem will be rectified in the New Covenant (v. 33) through regeneration, which will provide the internal power necessary to meet and to keep the righteous standards of God. The result of the New Covenant will be a total national regeneration of Israel (v. 34). Jewish missions and Jewish evangelism will not be needed in the Messianic Kingdom because every Jew will know the Lord, from the least to the greatest. The sins of Israel will be forgiven and forgotten. While there will be Gentile unbelievers in the Kingdom, there will not be Jewish unbelievers in the Kingdom. To a man, all the Jews will believe. There will be no need to tell a Jew to "know the Lord" because they will all know Him.1"
THE NEW COVENANT AND THE CHURCH
We have seen how the New Covenant will be fulfilled for Israel, but an often ask question is does this covenant relate in any way to the church? A New Covenant is mentioned a number of times in reference to the church in the New Testament (Matt. 26:27-28; Luke 22:20; 2 Cor. 3:6). It appears to be the basis for the forgiveness of sins and a spiritual dynamic that is not just reserved for the nation of Israel. I believe that there is one New Covenant, which will be fulfilled in the future with Israel but is participated in relation to the doctrine of salvation by the church today. The Bible clearly teaches that God promised a New Covenant to His people Israel (Jer 31:31–34; Ezek 36:26–38) and that Jesus established the New Covenant through His death on the cross (1 Cor 11:25–26). “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me” (1 Cor. 11:25). The inclusion of the Gentiles is substantiated by Jesus’ statement in Matthew 26 enlarging the scope of the New Covenant when He says, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins” (Matt. 26:28). Luke records a similar statement when Jesus says, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood” (Luke 22:20).
Paul contrasted two covenants in 2 Corinthians 3:6–18. The first was the old Mosaic Covenant, while the second is the New Covenant. Under the old there are the tablets of stone, the letter, a ministry of death, and fading glory. Under the new there are tablets of flesh (human hearts), the Spirit, a ministry of life, and surpassing glory. The first has passed away. The second is now reigning. Paul is a minister of this New Covenant, as the passage says, “who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant” (2 Cor. 3:6). So it appears that in some way the New Covenant applies to the current church age, even though none of the specific prophecies relating to Israel appear to have been fulfilled under the New Testament application of the New Covenant to the church age.
We see in Scripture that the Church has not replaced literal Israel in its relationship to the New Covenant, and the New Covenant is not being fulfilled totally in the Church today.
HOW THE NEW COVENANT APPLIES TO THE CHURCH
A key to understanding what Scripture teaches on this matter is to recognize that the Old Testament promise of the New Covenant contained both spiritual and material benefits. The church indeed is enjoying the spiritual benefits (e.g., regeneration and the indwelling Holy Spirit), but the church is not experiencing the material benefits, which remain unfulfilled and will remain unfulfilled until literal national Israel appropriates the New Covenant to experience both its spiritual and physical benefits at the end of the Tribulation and throughout the millennium. Paul says in Romans, “For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual things, they are indebted to minister to them also in material things” (Rom. 15:27). Rodney J. Decker has the following explanation of how the New Covenant applies to the church today:
"The New Covenant, prophesied in the Old Testament to be made with Israel, was ratified at the Cross and implemented as a replacement of the Mosaic Covenant. It is presently the basis on which anyone relates to God and it governs the life of all believers. The church, though not a formal partner of the New Covenant, participates in the covenant both as a subject of its rule of life and as a recipient of promised Abrahamic Covenant blessings for Gentiles that have come through the Seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ. This explanation does not demand that the church “fulfill” the covenant; that remains for national Israel in the future millennium. It does acknowledge that there is more involved in the New Covenant than could have been known simply from the Old Testament. This in no way changes the meaning of those passages, but does allow for God’s doing more than He promised (though it will be no less than promised). The term “partial fulfillment” is not necessary. If fulfillment is used to describe the relationship of the covenant partners, then fulfillment in any respect should be viewed as future. “Participation” is a better term to describe the present aspects as it both avoids replacement concepts (the church replacing Israel in fulfilling the covenant) and also explains the partial nature of the obedience evident in the experience of the church. Even though the ministry of the Holy Spirit has changed dramatically, based on the ratification and implementation of the New Covenant, the full ramifications of that ministry will not be experienced until the covenant enters the fulfillment stage in the future messianic kingdom. . . . The Old Testament does not say that only Israel will participate in the New Covenant. The Old Testament does say that the New Covenant is made with Israel. That is different, however, from saying that the New Covenant is only for Israel. The New Testament does not violate Old Testament statements when it includes more than was revealed in the Old Testament."
CONCLUSION
If one attempts to say that the New Covenant is being fulfilled today, during the current church age, through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, then it would mean that we should not evangelize any more, that every Jew would be saved, and that we would have the Law of God written on our hearts (compare Jer. 31:31–34). This is not the case within the church today. Therefore, it means that we are not currently experiencing the full impact of the New Covenant as described in the Old Testament. Postmillennialists, Amillennialists, Covenant Theologians, and preterists all believe that all aspects of the New Covenant are being fulfilled today. If such were the case then why do we have evangelism and have to teach people the Law? Jeremiah speaking the word of the Lord says, “I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will and their sin I will remember no more” (Jer. 31:33b–34). Believers today simply do not fit this description. Further, the Lord is speaking about what He will do with Israel. Notice to whom the passage is directed: “’But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,’ declares the LORD” (Jer. 31:33a). This is certainly not yet a description of the Jewish nation as it exists today.
The Bible is clear that Israel will one day receive the benefits of the New Covenant.
What a wonderful day that will be when she enters into a right relationship with the Lord after all of those years. At the same time, the church is a partaker in the spiritual blessings that flow from the New Covenant, not “a taker over” of Israel’s promises, as some are inclined to say. God’s plan is on course and will be fully implemented in the course of His timing. Maranatha!
That was pretty straight forward right? God made an “everlasting covenant” with Israel and they have an “everlasting possession” of their land. How could anyone say that God broke His covenant with Israel after reading that? The last time I checked God was the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). If God can abandon Israel, who’s to say that He wouldn’t abandon His covenant with the church?
Great Point!
I think we can forcefully disagree with theologians and church leaders that believe in supersessionism, but most Christians don't understand the point you just made that "if God can abandon Israel, who's to say that He wouldn't abandon His covenant with the church?".
It seems clear to me that most Christians have a hard time understanding The Revelation of Jesus Christ because of supsessionism. If you read this book from the perspective that Christians are not there and it is about God taking the blinders off Israel it is easy to understand. Where dispensationalists diminish their credibility is by stating that Israel does not have to come to faith in Jesus Christ to be saved.
If the Scripture in which the eternal, unbreakable promises that God made to Israel can be denied, then the entire Bible has to be denied, including the sections of the New Testament that Christians believe detail the plan of salvation God provided to the world.
We don't want to be fraudulent, dishonest hypocrites, right? If God breaks His promises, and has broken His promises to His covenant people, the Jews, then He has broken His promises to Gentiles who mistakenly believe they are born again based on the information God has given in His Scriptures.
Where dispensationalists diminish their credibility is by stating that Israel does not have to come to faith in Jesus Christ to be saved.
No dipensationalist I've ever heard or read, with the possible exception of John Hagee and what he actually said has been debated, has ever claimed that there is different path to salvation for Israel apart from Jesus Christ.
And one of the many, many ways that those who cling to the demonic doctrine of replacement theology, in direct and open rebellion and contradiction to the Word of God, lose whatever credibility they may have left after defending replacement theology against all Scriptural proofs against it, is by claiming that God made absolutely no provision for the salvation of Old Testament Jews and Gentiles simply because He chose not to send Jesus Christ at that particular time.
I'm glad you presented this. People who do not read the entire Bible and attempt to reconcile ALL that it says, make the error of confusing modern day Israel with the Israel of God.
That was the point of Romans 9,10, 11 and Paul’s comments to the Galatians.
And these are all excellent sources to understand just who the Israel of God is. And it is nothting new. It is who it has always been: every believer, either looking forward to Jesus Christ (the Messiah), or those of us who look back.
Here are some of the most telling verses:
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect, For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)
Galatians really is the heart of this doctrine:
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Galatians 3:16)
For ye all are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29).
Some may say, this only applies to the NT 'church'. Nonsense. Every faithful son of Abraham will come to Jesus Christ (John 6:37). And Jesus (and John the Baptist) rebuked those who thought by being physical seed that that was sufficient (John 8:39-47, Matthew 3:7-10)). The Bible makes it very clear who these Christ-denying Jews really are:
Who is a liar but he that deneith the Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that deneith the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (1 John 2:22,23)
The only hope today for anyone (Jew or Gentile) is to come to Jesus Christ. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. God is not a respecter of persons. Only the man of faith can please him.
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2:28,29)
Radical (basic). And true.
Here are my thoughts: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/israel-chosenorforgotten.html
“As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. “ (Romans 11:28)
Anyone who has done much evangelization among the Jewish understands that the former, while the relative remnant who will come to Christ will realize that latter. To the glory of God.
God is beyond clear that He is not finished with His covenant people, He has a plan for them which He will carry out and He has made promises to them which He will fulfill.
The Ezekiel passages in your link are proof positive of God's keeping His Word: God has gathered His people back into their own land, keeping a promise made to them, and has reestablished them as a nation, keeping a promise made to them.
And He will faithfully keep all the promises He made to His chosen people. We already have proof that He will.
As Jesus said, the kingdom was taken away from the nation of Israel and given to a nation producing its fruits.
No dipensationalist I've ever heard or read, with the possible exception of John Hagee and what he actually said has been debated, has ever claimed that there is different path to salvation for Israel apart from Jesus Christ.
Really?
During the Tribulation, those who come to Christ will not have eternal security as the Church does now. They will have to continually "earn" their salvation, so to speak.
I think where most supersessionalists get confused is they believe dispensationalists are claiming that Jews have a path to salvation that does not include faith in Jesus Christ.
What am I to think, when I hear (with my own ears, from the lips of a dispensational teacher I know slightly, associated in some way with LaHaye's pretrib group) that Jews have a different future? A different fate, into eternity?
What am I to think, when I hear some dispensationalists say, that salvation by grace alone ends at some point, replaced by salvation by works?
No gospel implications?
I'd love to know why you continually set yourself up to be shot out of the water.
I know I'm wasting my time, but let's see you do a point-by-point, Scripturally-supported, factual refutation of the original article that that response is attached to. Oh, and you'll have to, for the moment, act like you don't believe that the book of Revelation was fulfilled in 70AD.
I can't wait to see this.
IMHO, the quicker way to understand this doctrine is to study the Session.
Jesus Christ Ascended and was seated at the right hand of the Father.
His session is at the throne of God the Father at present.
His session at the Throne of David is still yet future and will be everlasting.
This points to major differences in eschatological interpretation of Scripture between different theologies.
Pretrib, premil is the only one which preserves the literal hermeneutic when discussing the Covenants of God with man.
Most accurate post yet. God is Savior of one people...a Bride for His Son. Christ is not a polygamist. The Bride of Christ’s redemption started with the promise of Gen 3:15 and all those who put their faith in that promise.
But I do believe that God holds a special place in His heart for the nation that He chose to reveal Himself to the world through. According to Romans, salvation was offered to the Gentiles in part to make the nation of Israel jealous. God will turn His attention back to them when the time is right...adding more to the True Bride of Christ.
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