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Defining Supersessionism
Theological Studies ^ | Michael Vlach

Posted on 05/07/2012 2:38:10 PM PDT by wmfights

This section we will attempt a precise definition of supersessionism. Various titles have been used in identifying the view that the church has permanently replaced Israel in God’s plan. As Marten H. Woudstra observes, “The question whether it is more proper to speak of a replacement of the Jews by the Christian church or of an extension (continuation) of the OT people of God into that of the NT church is variously answered.”[i] The most common designation used in recent scholarly literature to identify this position is “supersessionism.” Commenting on this term, Clark M. Williamson writes, “‘Supersessionism’ comes from two Latin words: super (on or upon) and sedere (to sit), as when one person sits on the chair of another, displacing the latter.”[ii] In addition, the title “replacement theology” is often viewed as a synonym for “supersessionism.”[iii]

Several theologians have offered definitions of “supersessionism” or “replacement theology.” According to Walter C. Kaiser, “Replacement theology . . . declared that the Church, Abraham’s spiritual seed, had replaced national Israel in that it had transcended and fulfilled the terms of the covenant given to Israel, which covenant Israel had lost because of disobedience.”[iv] Ronald E. Diprose defines replacement theology as the view that “the Church completely and permanently replaced ethnic Israel in the working out of God’s plan and as recipient of Old Testament promises to Israel.”[v] R. Kendall Soulen argues that supersessionism is linked with how some view the coming of Jesus Christ: “According to this teaching [supersessionism], God chose the Jewish people after the fall of Adam in order to prepare the world for the coming of Jesus Christ, the Savior. After Christ came, however, the special role of the Jewish people came to an end and its place was taken by the church, the new Israel.”[vi] Herman Ridderbos asserts that there is a positive and negative element to the supersessionist view: “On the one hand, in a positive sense it presupposes that the church springs from, is born out of Israel; on the other hand, the church takes the place of Israel as the historical people of God.”[vii]

These definitions from Kaiser, Diprose, Soulen, and Ridderbos appear consistent with the statements of those who explicitly declare that the church is the replacement of Israel. Bruce K. Waltke, for instance, declares that the New Testament teaches the “hard fact that national Israel and its law have been permanently replaced by the church and the New Covenant.”[viii] According to Hans K. LaRondelle, the New Testament affirms that “Israelwould no longer be the people of God and would be replaced by a people that would accept the Messiah and His message of the kingdom of God.”[ix] LaRondelle believes this “people” is the church who replaces “the Christ-rejecting nation.”[x] Loraine Boettner, too, writes, “It may seem harsh to say that ‘God is done with the Jews.’ But the fact of the matter is that He is through with them as a unified national group having anything more to do with the evangelization of the world. That mission has been taken from them and given to the Christian Church (Matt. 21:43).”[xi]

When comparing the definitions of Kaiser, Diprose, Soulen, and Ridderbos with the statements of those who openly promote a replacement view, it appears that supersessionism is based on two core beliefs: (1) national Israel has somehow completed or forfeited its status as the people of God and will never again possess a unique role or function apart from the church; and (2) the church is now the true Israel that has permanently replaced or superseded national Israel as the people of God. Supersessionism, then, in the context of Israel and the church, is the view that the New Testament church is the new Israel that has forever superseded national Israel as the people of God. The result is that the church has become the sole inheritor of God’s covenant blessings originally promised to national Israel in the Old Testament. This rules out any future restoration of national Israel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[i] Marten H. Woudstra, “Israel and the Church,” in Continuity and Discontinuity: Perspectives on the Relationship Between the Testaments, ed. John S. Feinberg (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 1987), 237. Woudstra believes that the terms, “replacement,” and “continuation” are both acceptable and consistent with biblical teaching. See also G. B. Caird, New Testament Theology (Oxford: Clarendon, 1994), 55.

[ii] Clark M. Williamson, A Guest in the House of Israel: Post-Holocaust Church Theology(Louisville, KY: Westminster/John Knox, 1993), 268, n. 9.

[iii] Diprose views the titles “replacement theology” and “supersessionism” as being synonymous. He also notes that the title “replacement theology” is a “relatively new term in Christian theology.” Ronald E. Diprose, Israel in the Development of Christian Thought (Rome: Istituto Biblico Evangelico Italiano, 2000), 31, n. 2. In this present work, we will use the titles “supersessionism” and “replacement theology” as synonyms. We acknowledge, though, that these designations may not be entirely satisfactory to those who view the church more as the continuation or fulfillment of national Israel. See Herman Ridderbos, Paul: An Outline of His Theology, trans. John Richard De Witt. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975), 333–34; Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, 2d. ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1999), 1058–59.

[iv] Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., “An Assessment of ‘Replacement Theology’: The Relationship Between theIsrael of the Abrahamic–Davidic Covenant and the Christian Church,” Mishkan 21 (1994): 9.

[v] Diprose, Israel in the Development of Christian Thought, 2.

[vi] R. Kendall Soulen, The God of Israel and Christian Theology, (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1996), 1–2.

[vii] Herman Ridderbos, Paul: An Outline of His Theology, trans. John Richard de Witt. (Grand

Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975), Paul, 333–34.

[viii] Bruce K. Waltke, “Kingdom Promises as Spiritual,” in Continuity and Discontinuity, 274. He also states, “The Jewish nation no longer has a place as the special people of God; that place has been taken by the Christian community which fulfills God’s purpose for Israel” (275). Emphasis in original.

[ix] Hans K. LaRondelle, The Israel of God in Prophecy, Principles of Prophetic Interpretation(Berrien Springs, MI: Andrews University Press, 1983), 101. Emphasis in original.

[x] Ibid.

[xi] Loraine Boettner, The Millennium (Philadelphia: Presbyterian & Reformed, 1957), 89–90. According to Bright, “The New Testament triumphantly hails the Church as Israel . . . the true heir of Israel’s hope.” John Bright, The Kingdom of God (Nashville: Abingdon, 1953), 226.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: replacementtheology; supersessionism
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The result is that the church has become the sole inheritor of God’s covenant blessings originally promised to national Israel in the Old Testament. This rules out any future restoration of national Israel.
1 posted on 05/07/2012 2:38:13 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ...

Ping


2 posted on 05/07/2012 2:40:20 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights
The result is that the church has become the sole inheritor of God’s covenant blessings originally promised to national Israel in the Old Testament. This rules out any future restoration of national Israel.

Great, except for the fact that the writer of the majority of the New Testament kicks the crap out of supersessionism.
3 posted on 05/07/2012 2:47:48 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan
I agree that the theory of supersessionism is wrong. I also believe it's good to have a solid working definition when discussing this belief.
4 posted on 05/07/2012 3:08:02 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights; daniel1212

I still think that the MOST FITTING AND PROPER TERM IS

“REPLACEMENTARIANISM.”

I believe that Supersessionism is an OBFUSCATING weasel, whitewashing TERM instead of a clarifying, edifying, informing term.

REPLACEMENTARIANISM

communicates immediately facts about what’s going on with their idiotic assertions about Israel being REPLACED by the Church of Jesus, THE CHRIST.

1. The REPLACEMENT aspect is first and foremost plainly stated in the term.

2. The vast bulk of the REPLACEMENTARIANS I’ve known over my life-span have almost all been CONTRARIAN personalities.

3. Certainly it is an -ISM with every bit the rigidities, UNBiblical hogwash, narrowness, irrational thought sequences etc. as any cult one could name.


5 posted on 05/07/2012 3:14:23 PM PDT by Quix (Time is short: INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: wmfights
Israel is to the Church as the caterpillar is to the butterfly.
6 posted on 05/07/2012 3:25:33 PM PDT by circlecity
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To: circlecity

“Israel is to the Church as the caterpillar is to the butterfly.”

I prefer to think of Israel as the vine upon which us wild shoots are grafted, but, hey, I just read the Bible.


7 posted on 05/07/2012 3:32:11 PM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (I will never vote for Romney. Ever.)
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To: wmfights
Call it "replacement theology" or "supersessionism" or whatever, but Paul, in Romans 11, makes it clear that

Israel = patriarchs + believing Israelites + believing Gentiles - unbelieving Israelites

In other words, the Church is the continuation of Israel. Abraham's true heirs are spiritual, not hereditary.

8 posted on 05/07/2012 3:38:36 PM PDT by RansomOttawa (tm)
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To: wmfights
vii] Herman Ridderbos, Paul: An Outline of His Theology, trans. John Richard de Witt. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975), Paul, 333–34.

At LAST!

I've been asking for years, for a reference to original literature, and not just the usual ignorant screed from a pop dispensationalist pundit.

Amazon, he say, "Used from $5.42". On order.

9 posted on 05/07/2012 4:13:12 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: wmfights

Claiming replacement theology makes a mockery of the belief in the eternal faithfulness of God to his word.


10 posted on 05/07/2012 4:32:27 PM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: RansomOttawa

Well, then, Israel’s “heirs” also include Muslims. How does that fact fit into this Christocentric theory that God backed out of his promise?


11 posted on 05/07/2012 4:35:23 PM PDT by Seeing More Clearly Now
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
Claiming replacement theology makes a mockery of the belief in the eternal faithfulness of God to his word.

The covenant was conditional upon the Israelites keeping their end of the bargain. Much of what Jesus said in the Gospels was about how the Israelites had not kept their end of the bargain, that they had not "born fruit" (example, the parable of the husbandmen, which ends with:

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what
will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those
wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other 
husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their
seasons.
and appears to align with Isaiah 5's Parable of the Vinyard )
12 posted on 05/07/2012 4:56:57 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: PapaBear3625

“The covenant was conditional upon the Israelites keeping their end of the bargain”

Quite so and they were so warned.


13 posted on 05/07/2012 5:06:59 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
“The covenant was conditional upon the Israelites keeping their end of the bargain”

Quite so and they were so warned.


Those who believe that the church replaces Israel, in the process, delete entire sections of the promises God gave Judah and Israel about the rejoining of the scattered tribes, and the regathering (contained in the old testament). They also ignore Paul's warning to not become proud, because they can be easily ungrafted from the tree of Israel. Paul specifically states that by accepting Christ we become fellow citizens of Israel and heirs to His promises. Note fellow citizens, not usurpers.
14 posted on 05/07/2012 5:15:45 PM PDT by Yulee (Village of Albion)
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To: Seeing More Clearly Now
How does that fact fit into this Christocentric theory that God backed out of his promise?

God didn't back out of his promise. What are you talking about?

15 posted on 05/07/2012 5:35:07 PM PDT by RansomOttawa (tm)
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To: Yulee
“Note fellow citizens, not usurpers.”

That citizenship was a heavenly one as Paul said at Phil. 3:20 so the “Jerusalem above” made no distinction between Jew, Greek, slave, freeman. (Gal. 3:26-29)

As Paul argues in Hebrews chapters 9, 10, 11 it is a fulfillment of prophecy that only a remnant of natural would form part of the spiritual nation of Israel that that became heir to the promises.

Jesus had told the fleshly nation of Israel that the kingdom was to be taken away from them for failure to produce fruit and it was.

Thus there was no usurpation and the only way an Israelite by birth could become part of the spiritual nation of Israel was to put faith in Christ.

“The covenant was conditional upon the Israelites keeping their end of the bargain”.

16 posted on 05/07/2012 5:44:31 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: aruanan
The result is that the church has become the sole inheritor of God’s covenant blessings originally promised to national Israel in the Old Testament. This rules out any future restoration of national Israel. ...

Great, except for the fact that the writer of the majority of the New Testament kicks the crap out of supersessionism.

I see inaccuracies in both of these views. (1) There is a great misunderstanding of just who "Israel" is and (2) what "the church" is. I do not believe in a "universal church". I believe that there are "churches", bodies of saints. (There are the elect/saints--in both OT and NT). Consequently, "the church" (a catholic hijacking) does not replace "Israel." Israel is who it has always been.

Just who is Israel? Romans and Galatians makes it very clear that "Israel" is the promised seed of Abraham. And we know that from Galatians 3:16 that this seed is Jesus Christ. And if we are Christ's, then we are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. This was true in the old covenant. And this is true in the new.

Galatians 4:22-31 makes it clear the children of promise have ALWAYS been those who are born after the Spirit (4:29). And Jesus was shocked that Nicodemus did not understand this: "That which is born after the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of spirit is spirit." and "Art thou a Master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" (John 3:6,10)

Who is a Jew?

For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28,29)
Who comprises "national Israel"? A bunch of Jesus-hating antichrists (see John 2:22,23) situated in the middle east? Let's see who the Bible says the real "nation of Israel" is:
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the convenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them which were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an inhabitation of God through the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:11-22)

Not "replacement", but fellow citzens of the commonwealth of Israel. This is the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16).

17 posted on 05/07/2012 5:46:14 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: PapaBear3625; Seeing More Clearly Now
The covenant was conditional upon the Israelites keeping their end of the bargain.

This is an extremely simplified statement, which (pardon me, but) shows a profound ignorance of the Old Testament. You seem to suggest there was only one covenant. There are MANY. and hundreds of declarations by YHWH - Some ARE conditional, but many, the lion's share, are not.

FURTHERMORE, and MOST IMPORTANTLY: The main Abrahamic Covenant seems conditional, but is not - ONLY YHWH walked between the Halves - As the only one who walked between the halves, the whole of that covenant is HIS ALONE to bring about.

The Mosaic Covenant is conditional, but not without remedy - Even the House of Israel, who has not gotten mercy even unto this day (according to modern scholars) is promised to be re-wed (a very, very important point), and according to Hosea, will see forgiveness and be grafted back in... And nobody even knows who the House of Israel IS anymore. But the House of Judah was hauled back to the drawing board many times - with the latest time being 1948.

And furthermore yet sommore, to believe as you do directly defies the future as told by the prophets of YHWH. Look at the promises to the 12 individual tribes, and look at the end times exploits of those tribes as predicted. How can you read the end of the major prophets without knowing that Israel WILL have the land back, that David WILL be on the throne in Jerusalem, and that the law will go forth from Jerusalem to the entire world?

18 posted on 05/07/2012 5:47:48 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: TheThirdRuffian; Seeing More Clearly Now; Yulee; RansomOttawa
If you remember that replacement theologists are not actual, born-again true believers in Jesus Christ, it makes perfect sense that they don't believe Scripture and believe that God lies.

For Heaven's sake, they have the same belief system as the Nazis. Don't have any expectations that they are going to sound or believe or act like Christians. They are not Christians.

19 posted on 05/07/2012 5:55:43 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Quix

Some holy men of God did hold to this in times past, before 1948, when it looked like Israel would never be a nation again, but today that is less excusable.


20 posted on 05/07/2012 6:01:02 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to forgive+save you,+live....)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
For Heaven's sake, they have the same belief system as the Nazis.

Godwin's Law may apply here.

21 posted on 05/07/2012 6:01:18 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: daniel1212

If the “holy men” actually did believe that God is finished with Israel and had replaced Israel with the Church they had to deny Scripture to believe that and weren’t “holy” as they may have believed they were.


22 posted on 05/07/2012 6:03:33 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: PapaBear3625
And some cold, hard facts definitely apply here.

"Unfortunately, the Reformation produced no changes in attitude. In fact, the hatred of the Jews was reinforced and intensified by the writings of Martin Luther, the very man who launched the Reformation. Initially, Luther was sympathetic toward the Jews because he believed their rejection of the Gospel was due to their recognition of the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church. But when they continued to reject the Gospel, Luther turned on them with a vengeance. In 1543 he wrote a pamphlet entitled “Concerning The Jews and Their Lies.” The document was an anti-Semitic diatribe. In it, he referred to the Jews as:a"

Having dehumanized and demonized them, Luther then proceeded to make some startling proposals for dealing with them:

Needless to say, the Nazis gleefully quoted Luther as they rose to power and launched the Holocaust. In his book Mein Kampf, published in 1925, Adolf Hitler referred to Martin Luther as “a great warrior, a true statesmen, and a great reformer.” Keep in mind that Hitler was a professed Christian. In 1924 at a Christian gathering in Berlin, Hitler spoke to thousands and received a standing ovation when he made the following proclamation: “I believe that today I am acting in accordance with the will of Almighty God as I announce the most important work that Christians could undertake - and that is to be against the Jews and get rid of them once and for all.”(21) Hitler then proceeded to talk about the influence of Luther on his life: “Martin Luther has been the greatest encouragement of my life. Luther was a great man. He was a giant. With one blow he heralded the coming of the new dawn and the new age. He saw clearly that the Jews need to be destroyed, and we’re only beginning to see that we need to carry this work on.”(22) At the Nuremberg trials after World War II, the Nazi leader, Julius Streicher, defended himself by saying, “I have never said anything that Martin Luther did not say.”(23)

The terrible truth that Christians do not like to face, and which many are unaware of, is that the Holocaust was the product of 1,900 years of virulent Christian anti-Semitism."

Replacement theologists, Nazis. One and the same.

23 posted on 05/07/2012 6:17:59 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
“Replacement theologists, Nazis. One and the same.”

Hence the liberal church, no longer believes in the Word of God, believes itself to be a replacement for God's chosen people, allies itself with the Antichrists of this world (Muslims), and turns its hatred toward God's fulfillment of His Word(the nation of Israel).

Only God knows where Israel(the lost tribes)have been scattered throughout the world. Only He can unite them into one staff with Judah and Benjamin (who currently make up the modern nation of Israel).

The strange thing is that the nation of Judah(southern kingdom) now lives in what was once the land belonging to the lost tribes, and the West Bank is made up of Judah and Samaria, and considered by the liberal church as occupied land belonging to the Ismaelites.

There are those who believe the Church contains within it the lost tribes (Israel), and God is bringing them together with Judah to face in the end times the assault of the people of the Antichrist. Shiites believe they are Gog and Magog, and their Islamic theologians teach that Gog and Magog are the victors in the end time battle.

We as Christians are Zionist because we believe in a Jewish God, a Jewish Messiah (Yeshua) who will rule the world in peach from Zion. The liberal church tries to replace this with a poor substitution.

24 posted on 05/07/2012 6:42:57 PM PDT by Yulee (Village of Albion)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
If you remember that replacement theologists are not actual, born-again true believers in Jesus Christ, it makes perfect sense that they don't believe Scripture and believe that God lies.

For Heaven's sake, they have the same belief system as the Nazis. Don't have any expectations that they are going to sound or believe or act like Christians. They are not Christians.

So, y'all let me know when the pogrom begins, OK.

25 posted on 05/07/2012 7:52:20 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: Yulee; GiovannaNicoletta
Hence the liberal church, no longer believes in the Word of God, believes itself to be a replacement for God's chosen people, allies itself with the Antichrists of this world (Muslims), and turns its hatred toward God's fulfillment of His Word(the nation of Israel).

FWIW, the erroneous belief in supersessionism is as old as the state church model and is a belief held by the Protestant churches and the Roman church.

26 posted on 05/07/2012 8:08:55 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: Quix; daniel1212
I believe that Supersessionism is an OBFUSCATING weasel, whitewashing TERM instead of a clarifying, edifying, informing term.

I understand your anger. I am using the academic term supersessionism because I have had Reformed Brothers and Sisters in Christ indicate that the term Replacement Theology is insulting to them and I would like them to consider the subject with an open mind. The Reformed are great on Sola Scriptura but seem to have a blind spot when it comes to eschatology. I believe they are blind to how much of the Roman Theology they took with them when they left the Roman system.

FWIW, I think the author makes a great point about supersessionism. In this belief God is done with Israel, but yet the nation has been reformed and has survived repeated attacks even though their enemies greatly out number them.

27 posted on 05/07/2012 8:22:44 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights

I understand and thought that likely.

Soooo . . . being the helpful . . . uhhh . . . off the wall goad . . . I decided to take the role of saying such things. LOL.

I have something to contribute from Walid Shoebat’s book GOD’S WAR ON TERROR on your topic as soon as I can get to it.

LUB


28 posted on 05/07/2012 8:28:09 PM PDT by Quix (Time is short: INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; PapaBear3625
The terrible truth that Christians do not like to face, and which many are unaware of, is that the Holocaust was the product of 1,900 years of virulent Christian anti-Semitism."

The perverse irony of this is Jews today are wary of Born Again Evangelical Christians and are more inclined to trust "liberal" churches.

29 posted on 05/07/2012 8:28:20 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
For Heaven's sake, they have the same belief system as the Nazis.

Thanks for really raising the level of discourse around here. /s

Let's just all demonstrate our Christian charity by denouncing all who disagree with us on any point of exegesis as Nazis.

30 posted on 05/07/2012 8:49:31 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: wmfights

Thanks for the ping!


31 posted on 05/07/2012 8:52:45 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
The terrible truth that Christians do not like to face, and which many are unaware of, is that the Holocaust was the product of 1,900 years of virulent Christian anti-Semitism

Nice example of propagating the lies told about Christianity by atheists. The Holocaust was the product of a neopagan, statist, Darwinist ideology based on racism and the mindless, idolatrous deification of an individual.

The Nazis used Martin Luther they same way they used anyone else who could be twisted to agree with them. But in fact, their ideology and their persecution of the Jews had nothing to do with either the Christian or Jewish religions at all. It was solely racist hatred and scapegoating.

That is why Jews who converted to Christianity, including to those denominations of Christianity you are so wrongly denouncing as "Nazi," were murdered just as readily as Jews who held to their religion. Case in point: St. Edith Stein, born to a Jewish family in Breslau, Germany. Became a Catholic Carmelite nun in Holland. Gassed in Auschwitz in 1942.

Any questions?

32 posted on 05/07/2012 8:56:10 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: wmfights
Here's the excerpt from Walid Shoebat's GOD'S WAR ON TERROR pp209-210 [Quixicated]:

. . .

In all the passages that we have looked at which describe the battles that take place when Jesus returns, they are all concerning the nation of Israel. In fact, the centrality of Israel in ALL end-time prophecy is an essential part of the picture which many Westerners fail to acknowledge.

. . .

Again, there is only one "gathering of the nations" against Israel: ... (Zechariah 14:2). ... (Matthew 25:32) . . . (Joel 3:2) Any honest reading of Joel 2 will have to concludde that the nations are judged according to THEIR TREATMENT OF ISRAEL. This passage is literal and is not meant to be read symbolically or allegorically in any way. . . .

. . .

. . . In Joel 3, God is in the valley of Jehosaphat (which means the Lord judges). There He will judge all who participated in dividing up His land. Read it carefully. Now, if Antichrist wants Jerusalem divided and Christ condemns this division, Yet you are for this division, which side are you on? Christ's or Antichrist's? . . .

Is this all too difficult for you to swallow? Well, everyone must swallow--either swallow God's Wrod or swallow His wrath. The choice is yours. . . .

.

I've increasingly been aware that there are far more Scriptures affirming God's EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH THE BLOOD CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB than I ever realized. They are all over the place. They are clearly so because of the whole sentence or paragraph or sometimes because of a key phrase. I should get a new print Bible and read it through and mark all of them. I'm guessing there are more than 50 that are clearly emphatic about the issue.

It only takes one such Scripture to understand God's will in the matter. . . . for those with eyes to see and ears to hear and hearts genuinely seeking God's face, values, priorities and will.

33 posted on 05/07/2012 9:09:54 PM PDT by Quix (Time is short: INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: GiovannaNicoletta
If you remember that replacement theologists are not actual, born-again true believers in Jesus Christ

There is no reason to "remember" any such thing.

35 posted on 05/07/2012 10:02:55 PM PDT by RansomOttawa (tm)
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To: TheThirdRuffian
"I prefer to think of Israel as the vine upon which us wild shoots are grafted, but, hey, I just read the Bible."

Well, if you read the Bible you'll know then who said he was the "true vine". A shoot is a shoot and a grafted one is better than one broken off. And there is only one path to become part of the vine again.

36 posted on 05/08/2012 3:41:18 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: Lee N. Field

Let me know when God’s promises to His chosen, covenant people were fulfilled.


37 posted on 05/08/2012 4:16:55 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Campion
Cry me a river.

I provided proof that the Nazis took up Martin Luther's antiSemitism and replacement theology and used it as justification to slaughter six million of God's chosen people.

I guess it's impossible to "raise the discourse" with a "doctrine" and those who believe in it who have so much in common with mass murderers.

I'm not responsible for the chosen belief of replacement theology that other people hold, and I don't have to deny the filthy truth about that because it might not "raise the discourse".

There are Bible-rejecting, liberal "churches" who support abortion. Why don't we worry about the "discourse" when we speak the truth about that?

38 posted on 05/08/2012 4:25:17 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Campion

So you’re denying the direct quotes made by the Nazis in the post?


39 posted on 05/08/2012 4:26:14 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: RansomOttawa
Can you provide the Scripture where man can deny any part of the Word of God and be born again?

Before you answer, keep in mind the following:

For You have magnified Your word according to all Your name. (Psalm 138:2)

and

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. (John 1:1-5)

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

So, knowing that God magnifies His Word above His own name, and knowing that Jesus Christ is the Word of God, please explain to me how anyone can deny any part of Scripture and know Christ as Savior.

Thanks.

40 posted on 05/08/2012 4:33:08 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: RansomOttawa

If the God of the Bible is all knowing and Jesus is God in the flesh and thus has a divine perspective on the future then one can surmise that the covenant promises made to the patriarchs are suspect if supersessionism/reformed/covenant/replacement theology is correct.

It is interesting to note that the “New Covenant” referred to in the New Testament has little to do with gentile Church. It is also interesting that St Paul preached to the jew first, then the gentile. We gentile Christian have a tendency to disregard the first 3/4 of the Scriptures.

The reformed crowd is long on talk but short of Biblical proof for their position.


41 posted on 05/08/2012 5:55:18 AM PDT by fatboy (This protestant will have no part in the ecumenical movement)
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To: wmfights; Quix
I believe they are blind to how much of the Roman Theology they took with them when they left the Roman system.

BOOM, baby! That particular theory is very well evidenced. Careful though, as this study will bring you smack up against dearly held !!!TRADITIONS!!! (if I may wax a bit Quixotic) that even the 5 solas have not been able to eradicate. It is my position that sola-scriptura should rightly go where it goes - in spite of in-grained belief - and that, my brother, is exceedingly hard to do, as every single faith I have ever run into is laced with the infection of ROME... Even my own.

It is not enough to look at the splinter in the eye of the Protestants.

42 posted on 05/08/2012 6:03:38 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Campion; GiovannaNicoletta
[GiovannaNicoletta:] The terrible truth that Christians do not like to face, and which many are unaware of, is that the Holocaust was the product of 1,900 years of virulent Christian anti-Semitism

[Campion:] Nice example of propagating the lies told about Christianity by atheists. [...] The Nazis used Martin Luther they same way they used anyone else who could be twisted to agree with them.

While I agree with you factually, Campion, I have to stand with GiovannaNicoletta. Even your own co-religionists have used this very idea to beat Protestants with, which I am sure you have witnessed by now. I have on occasion replied to them that Luther's antisemitism was largely a result of the times he lived in, and the religion he was unwittingly coming out of - Which I believe is a true statement, and is as such, in alignment with GiovannaNicoletta. And it IS a terrible truth that Christians of all stripes are loathe to admit.

43 posted on 05/08/2012 6:22:46 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; Campion
So you’re denying the direct quotes made by the Nazis in the post?

I will deny it, if Campion does not. Anyone willing to research the Nazi regime will have to conclude that the quote you refer to is merely propaganda. They were occultists looking to resurrect the gods of ancient Germany, blending them with a rather mythical view of the Aryans and their gods (largely unknown at the time). Nazi religion is probably the single most state-structured Neo-Pagan effort in modern times. Any mention of Lutheran Protestantism would necessarily be a marriage of convenience.

And even that neo-paganism was a prop for the masses, IMHO, as it was methodically overlaid with imagery of the state, and quite often depicted nazi leaders in heroic poses - Let us not forget that Naziism is technically socialist at heart. Socialists must abhor Christianity, no matter which stripe (Lutherans included) as it is an unlikely means to state religion, which must replace all existing religions in the socialist ideal.

44 posted on 05/08/2012 6:48:57 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: wmfights; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ..
Various titles have been used in identifying the view that the church has permanently replaced Israel in God’s plan.

How does YHvH define "church" i.e.Ekklesia ?

Is it all those called out by YHvH ?

A study of the word "church", in the Koine Greek : Ekklesia.

Was the "church" started at the YHvH commanded
Feast day of Shavuot (pentecost) as some say ?

or

Did the "church" exist earlier ?

Using the LXX as a guide we see that the Ekklesia
is first used in Deuteronomy 4:10

NAsbU Deuteronomy 4:10 "Remember the day you stood before YHvH, your God
at Horeb, when YHvH said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let
them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on
the earth, and that they may teach their children.
'
Also see : Deu 4:10, Deu 9:10, Deu 18:16, Deu 23:3, Deu 23:4, Deu 23:9, Deu 31:30,
Jos 9:2, Jda 20.2, Jda 21:5, Jda 21:8, Jdg 20:2 Jdg 21:5, Jdg 21:8, 1 Sa 17:47,
1 Sa 19:20, 1 Ki 8:14, 1 Ki 8:22, 1 Ki 8:55, 1 Ki 8:65, 1 Ch 13:2, 1 Ch 13:4, 1 Ch 28:2,
1 Ch 28:8

What was the purpose of the Ekklesia ?

Was it a temporal corporation to rule on earth ? No !

Was it to have a temporal head ? No !

It was a gathering of YHvH's chosen people to hear His Word ?

and learn to Fear YHvH all their days ?

And to teach their children the same ? Yes.

-------------

Ekklesia is from the Hebrew Qahal (kop, hey, lamed)
which is haQahal The assembly (hey, kop, hey, lamed)
In scripture it is always used to describe
those who have been assembled by YHvH.
It begins in Exodus 16:3 ( the bread from heaven )
and continues to Nehemiah 8:17 (living in Booths)

NAsbU Nehemiah 8:17
The entire assembly of those who had returned from
the captivity made booths and lived in them.
The sons of Israel had indeed not done so
from the days of Joshua(Yehoshua)
the son of Nun to that day.
And there was great rejoicing.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
45 posted on 05/08/2012 7:04:12 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

THX THX.


46 posted on 05/08/2012 7:12:22 AM PDT by Quix (Time is short: INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: roamer_1
So the Nazis didn't incorporate Martin Luther's antiSemitism and replacement theology into their genocide against the Jews?

Whether it was propaganda or not, if Martin Luther had not had antiSemitic and replacement theology beliefs, and had not vocalized and publicized his hatred and contempt of the Jewish people, the Nazis would not have had that to use as further justification for their mass murder of God's chosen people.

The antiSemitism and replacement theology continues today in direct and deliberate contradiction to Jesus Christ and His Scripture.

The bottom line, at the end of the day, is that there are people who espouse the same beliefs, whether we want to call it propaganda or not, as the Nazis used as validation for their actions.

47 posted on 05/08/2012 7:13:47 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
Excellent, Uri'el! Very well said!

Thank you for clarifying exactly what a "church" is and the true history of it.

48 posted on 05/08/2012 7:16:41 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: RansomOttawa; GiovannaNicoletta; roamer_1; wmfights
There is no reason to "remember" any such thing.

I don't know that 100% of all REPLACEMENTARIANS are unsaved. I believe many may well be Saved through the Blood of The Lamb and the word of their testimony if they believe Christ came in the flesh etc.

HOWEVER, Giovanna makes a worthy point that DISBELIEVING such as the Scriptures below puts one in OPPOSITION TO GOD ALMIGHTY. He's not usually very pleased with such a stance or with such individuals.

PSALM 89:3-37

I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?

God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.

10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.

11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.

13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.

14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

15  Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.

16  In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.

17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.

18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33  Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34  My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35  Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36  His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37  It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

.

NO AMOUNT of illogical, unBiblical REPLACEMENTARIAN weasel words can escape the plain message in Scriptures like the above.

imho, folks have to LOVE THEIR OWN ILL-CONCEIVED BIASES

MORE than they Love the Word of God

in order to trash such Scriptures;

in order to cast aspersions on and to trash

ALMIGHTY GOD'S EVERLASTING FAITHFULNESS;
ALMIGHTY GOD'S EVERLASTING CHARACTER;
ALMIGHTY GOD'S EVERLASTING PROMISES TO THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB.

I've persistently been shocked these years on FR at the wholesale spiritual, intellectual and Biblical blindness on the part of so many of the REPLACEMENTARIAN folks.

I've come to believe that there MUST BE some demonic forces in high places infecting with such an outrageous dogma from hell. It IS in THEIR interest to, like Satan in the garden assert:

"Did God REALLY say...?"

Only fools listen to such lies from satan.

Only fools assuming they know more than God dare to trash God's EVERLASTING PROMISES to the Children of Jacob.

49 posted on 05/08/2012 7:37:48 AM PDT by Quix (Time is short: INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: fatboy

INDEED.

I’ve begun to believe that on such scores, their Bibles are as rubbery as that of the RC’s.


50 posted on 05/08/2012 7:38:46 AM PDT by Quix (Time is short: INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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