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Infallibility ^ | not given |

Posted on 05/16/2012 11:39:02 AM PDT by Salvation


St. Peter, by Fernandes (detail)

Christ gave to Simon Peter and his successors, the Keys to the Kingdom and the power of binding and loosing. To the Popes was given the authority to teach. To them, in this regard, was given the charism of infallibility. "Infallibility" is not "impeccability" -- the inability to sin. Catholics do not believe that Popes are sinless and never err. Infallibility is simply a gift that is expressed in very specific ways, limited by Sacred Deposit of Faith -- Tradition, Scripture, and the unanimous writings of the early Fathers. As put by Vatican I:

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by His revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by His assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or Deposit of Faith transmitted by the Apostles.

Or, as put even more bluntly by Pope Pius XII in Mystici Coporis Christi:

[Nor] may anyone argue that the primacy of jurisdiction established in the Church gives such a Mystical Body two heads. For Peter in virtue of his Primacy is only Christ's Vicar; so that there is only one chief Head of this Body, namely Christ, who never ceases Himself to guide the Church invisible, though at the same time He rules it visibly, through Church rested not on Him alone, but on Peter too, its visible foundation stone.

The Pope may explain doctrines more fully, he may go more deeply into them, he can extrapolate from moral principles to shed light on new situations that arise, but he cannot contradict what has been handed down by Christ and the Apostles and still claim infallibility for that teaching.


Protestants believe the first Pope possessed the charism of infallibility.

Now, they might not believe that Peter was the first Pope (which he was), but they believe that his Epistles are infallible. They also believe that Luke, Matthew, Mark, Paul, Jude and John wrote infallibly. They believe that Moses "was infallible," too. And Hosea, Micah, Nehemiah, Isaiah, David, Solomon, Zechariah -- any Patriarch, Prophet, Apostle, or Evangelist who wrote a Bibilical Book is deemed by Protestants to be infallible.

But somehow they see things as having changed, and the idea of the gift of infallibility being given to man is laughed off as "Popish superstition" at best, and as "Romish sacrilege" at worst.

Why they believe this, when since Israel's origins God has always provided authoritative leaders, I don't know. From Abraham to Jacob to Moses to David to Solomon, et. al., throughout the thousands and thousands of years of Israel's existence, God gave Israel earthly authority. But Protestants see this authority as having abruptly ended when the Old Testament Covenant was fulfilled and Israel's King of Kings took on flesh.

Malachi 2-7
For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 23:2-3
The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

Did that earthly authorty pass away? If not, where did that authority pass on to?

Isaiah 22:21-23
And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house.

Matthew 16:18-19
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The authority passed to Peter and to the priests of the New Covenant.

"But we don't believe that Moses and Jacob and David were perfect! Look at David -- he committed adultery! Just because they wrote infallible books doesn't mean they were perfect!"

Precisely. And Catholics don't believe that Popes are perfect and can't sin or that every word a Pope mutters is infallible. When David whored around, he sinned. When Solomon prayed to pagan gods, he sinned. When Peter denied Christ three times, he sinned. When Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran or failed to deal with heretic, Modernist Bishops and homosexualist priests, he sinned. Impeccability is not a part of the deal -- but all of these sinners had/have the charism of infallibility.


How Infallibility Works

The Authentic (i.e. "authoritative") Magisterium of the Church -- i.e., the teaching office of the Church exercised by proper authority -- has different levels of infallibility:

In addition to Magisterium, the Pope can, of course, simply act as a private person and offer his personal opinions on anything from current events to sports to food to movies. These may be of interest to us Catholics, who tend to sensibly love -- or at least respect the office of -- the Holy Father, but they are not "Church teaching" in any way. In the same way, a Council may be called that is pastoral and not dogmatic in nature (such as Vatican II).

Now, some Catholics forget the second level of the Magisterium, the "Ordinary Infallible Magisterium." They forget the Sacred Deposit of Faith, the unanimous agreement of the early Christian Fathers, and Sacred Tradition. These "Catholics" are the "liberal Catholics" or "modernist Catholics" you hear so much from in the media. They are the ones who root for the ordination of women, the eradication of the Christian view of homosexuality, etc.  These are the well-organized, well-funded loudmouth "Catholics" who eat away at the Church's teachings and have become well-entrenched in various dioceses.

Another type of Catholic forgets about that third level of teaching that is not infallible at all. Any time the Pope teaches, he must be heard, his authority given respect, and the teaching given the benefit of the doubt because it comes from the Vicar of Christ. But if it contradicts prior infallible Magisterium, it is not infallible -- and it must not be obeyed if it proves harmful to the faith. Catholics who forget this level of Magisterium try very hard to be "orthodox" by being obedient, but they often have a false sense of obedience -- an obedience that sometimes borders on a pre-conscious papolatry ("pope worship"), though, of course, they know better and know that "worshipping the Pope" would be a terrible sin. They usually have a very healthy sensus catholicus, a desire for traditional Catholicism, and a virtuous patience, but they simply attribute to the Pope authority he does not have and they truly need to come to a better understanding of what the Magisterium is. These Catholics are often called "neo-conservatives," "conservatives," or "neo-Catholics" (they often think of and refer to themselves as "traditional Catholics" though they are not). You will see these otherwise wonderful Catholics tying themselves into knots trying to defend some of the novelties that followed Vatican II, or sweating bullets making excuses for some of the Holy Father's more scandalous actions (e.g., "ecumenical" services that include praying with Animists, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Protestants; allowing altar girls and "Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers", etc.), failures to act (e.g., lack of discipline given to Bishops), and opinions (e.g., support for the anti-subsidiarity, anti-life, anti-Christ United Nations).

Their desire to protect the Holy Father is understandable -- and laudable! -- especially since the papacy has been attacked so unfairly since the Protestant Rebellion and the ensuing secular revolution, most often with outrageous lies. But these Catholics have to wake up, study a bit, and defend true Catholic teaching as it has been known for 2,000 years.


How to recognize what is and isn't infallible

If it has always been taught by the Church as a matter of faith or morals, it is infallible. If it is a solemn definition, it is infallible.

Ex., you are reading two Encyclicals. The first Encyclical reads:

Venerable Brethren, the red dogs runs at night. The cow jumped over the Moon. Jesus Christ is God. Little Jack Horner sat in a corner. Women may not be ordained to the priesthood.

In this document, the only parts which would be infallible would be the lines "Jesus Christ is God" and "women may not be ordained to the priesthood" because these have always been taught. This is teaching at the level of the Universal Magisterium, which is infallible.

The second Encyclical reads:

By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that X, Y, Z. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith. And, by the way, the red dog runs at night.

Notice the explicit "we define" here? Notice that it is addressed to "anyone," not just to members of the Latin Church or of the Eastern Churches, etc.? Notice the penalty in place for non-acceptance of what is being said (if you don't believe this, you have fallen away from the Catholic Faith)? By these marks, you can know that infallible teaching is being expressed.

In this document, X, Y, and Z are infallible, but not "the red dog runs at night." This is teaching at the level of the Extraordinary (or Solemn) Magisterium, which is also infallible and is to be accepted "de fide." (Note: Protestants and uneducated Catholics who ask blankly, "Is Enclyclical X infallible?" need to recognize that a 100-page Encyclical may be written that is not infallible in any way, or has 10 paragraphs that are infallible, or 1 sentence that is infallible, etc.). This sort of exercise of the Solemn Magisterium is very rare, but very necessary when clarity is needed over a teaching that has always been taught, but whose details haven't been strictly defined.

All other teachings are owed obedience as long as they do not lead to a loss of Faith, harm the Church, impede the salvation of souls, lead to an evil, etc.


How the teachings are passed down

In addition to the above authoritative excercises of the Magisterium is "ecclesiastical tradition." Ecclesiastical tradition is the body of disciplines and practices which Christ's Church has ordained to be the manner in which our Faith is lived out and expressed. To quote Brother Alexis Bugnolo, writing in Seattle Catholic:

Ecclesiastical Tradition is the term used by the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, in 787 A.D., to speak of those pious customs of the Churches founded by the Apostles, which in some manner correctly apply the Catholic Religion to concrete practice over many generations. It does this most importantly in its 4th Anathema:

"If anyone despises or rejects any written or unwritten ecclesiastical tradition, anathema sit."

Some examples cited by this council of ecclesiastical tradition are the veneration of the symbol of the Cross, icons, and statues. As an unwritten practice, kneeling for Communion is an ecclesiastical tradition.

The details of ecclesiastical tradition (small "T") are not a matter of dogma per se, but they are the inerrant manner in which dogma and doctrine are taught, learned, expressed, and lived. The details of ecclesiastical tradition may develop; they are not written in stone. But they may develop only slowly, "organically," in terms of quantity or quality (not substance), and in such a manner that is consistent with Natural Law and which better expresses the Faith (or at least doesn't harm the Faith, such as the novel practices since Vatican II do). Many of the problems in the Church since the Second Vatican Council stem from the almost complete eradication or revolutionizing of ecclesiastical tradition, in spite of the Second Council of Nicaea's anathema against such things and in spite of the fact that they have proven dangerous to the Faith.

TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; pope; stpeter; whatacrock
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Comment #161 Removed by Moderator

To: Religion Moderator


162 posted on 05/21/2012 4:29:39 AM PDT by swampfox101
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To: Religion Moderator; swampfox101; Salvation; Natural Law; Cronos

This comment for the Religion Moderators is NOT NOT alluding to anyone in this thread. It is a general observation I’m making about people that attack or mock the Roman Catholic Church.

It seems some people are posting on a >Catholic thread out of sheer >Malice. There is NO NO NO attempt to have a religious dialogue.

Let me quote a Jesuit Priest from a Catechism, the Priest wrote himself. (The Priest wrote a number of books & articles)
>In part, “Pastoral Psychologists...have also connected homosexuality with disoriented relations between child and parents, and with imbalance sense of guilt, >exorbitant >malice, and inner depression.”

The Roman Catholic Church has 1.2 billion people alive today that have been given a ‘Catholic Baptism formally.’ The Catholic Church has a problem with homosexual activity by people in the Church. (It’s in the news.)

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that God loves >everyone & homosexuals can enter Heaven too. The sin is in homosexual activity NOT NOT with being a homosexual.

The old chestnut: God loves the sinner and hates the sin.

At the moment in the USA, homosexuals are attacking the institutions in our society. The Roman Catholic Church as representing Jesus Christ has repeated pointed out that homosexual activity is a sin.

There are numerous places where the Catholic Church is being >attacked for its Biblical opposition to homosexual activity.
It’s in the news that homosexuals are continually attacking & mocking the Catholic Church.

1. Do the Religion Moderators actually look for >malice in any comments that >attack & mock the Catholic Church?

The ‘thick skin’ policy on open forums seem to apply to ‘The Catholics Only.’ BUT, Exorbitant Malice seems to be in a number of the anti-Catholic postings as there is just mocking & hatred with NO NO intent to dialogue about religious beliefs.

2. Does freerepublic permit >malice in the comments posted on any of the threads?

163 posted on 05/21/2012 5:58:58 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: gghd

It seems u are trying to debate me through the moderator, if you have something for me, please address me. If you want to address the moderator, please address him/her.

164 posted on 05/21/2012 6:28:11 AM PDT by swampfox101
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To: swampfox101; Religion Moderator; Salvation; Natural Law; Cronos

Actually, I’m addressing the Religion Moderator for clarification on the ‘guidelines’ on freerepublic that seem to apply to Roman Catholics >only.

The other Monikers are included for the sake of politeness to let some people know about a discussion taking place on this thread.

I believe in the ‘comment box’ I’m suppose to address you as the ‘The Self-Pope’ & I apologize to the ‘The Self-Pope’ for any confusion.

165 posted on 05/21/2012 6:40:53 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: gghd

I can’t be a pope, I don’t believe in them. Only apostate churchs have them.

166 posted on 05/21/2012 7:11:14 AM PDT by swampfox101
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To: Religion Moderator; swampfox101; Salvation; Natural Law; Cronos

This is a question about the guidelines on freerepublic for Religion Moderators:

1. Is it permissible to ask for another persons’ qualifications to make ‘pope like’ pronouncements about the Christian scriptures?

2. There many people in the world who are not schooled in a religious institution. They are actually just >self appointed experts.
Harold Camping is a perfect example of such a person.
There is a long list of public figures both famous & infamous, who work as Protestant ministers or have pretended to be Protestant ministers, yet have NO NO special education concerning the Bible or religion.

I bought a $1 Bible at the OneBuck&noMo’ store. It’s a Protestant NIV Bible. Amazing price & I bought it to carry in my work truck as I didn’t want to risk ruining a more expensive Catholic Bible. (It’s always good to be able to ‘study on the word’ when you can.)

The point of the points 1 & 2 is: For one dollar someone can buy a Bible & pretend to be a ‘Biblical-scholar’ just by quoting scripture. Anyone that has read the Bible can see in anti-Catholic comments that many people posting have >NO NO understanding of the Bible.

3. Have the Religion Moderators considered allowing Roman Catholics to be able to specifically ask anti-Catholic posters their specific qualifications?
Looking over numerous anti-Catholic comments it is possible to see that someone can spout complete anti-Catholic nonsense & claim scripture as its basis.

4. It’s bogus & deceitful for freerepublic to allow such nonsense to occur without allowing Roman Catholics to ask for ‘qualifications’ & to ‘specifically’ point out, what the poster is saying is complete nonsense.

5. The point being: ‘Someone for $1 can buy a Bible, quote scripture, pose as a Bible-believing Christian, spout complete nonsense & post anti-Catholic comments on freerepublic.
Roman Catholics are not allowed to actually question the ‘posers that be posing.’

6. As a Roman Catholic it does not seem to be very equitable to me. After all, Roman Catholics have a >visible Church that has been in existence for >2,000 years, have >actually written the Bible as inspired by the Holy Spirit & has a gazillion (at least) books & articles explaining Catholic teachings.

7. There seems to be a difference between a ‘poser’ with a $1 Bible. & The visible = 2,000 year old Church with 1.2 BILLION people formally Baptized into it.
The Roman Catholic is obligated to post authentic teaching. The poser with a $1 Bible can post whatever suits his fancy that day & use scripture inappropriately to write anti-Catholic comments.

8. Being able to ask questions of anti-Catholic commentators may shine the True Light of Eternal Truth onto the comment section of freerepublic threads.

167 posted on 05/21/2012 7:34:14 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: swampfox101; Religion Moderator; Salvation; Natural Law; Cronos

Please see comment #155. On freerepublic, the ‘Self-Pope’ be a ‘Self-Pope’ whether the ‘Self-Pope’ believes in popes or not.

168 posted on 05/21/2012 7:40:57 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: gghd


169 posted on 05/21/2012 7:50:16 AM PDT by xone
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To: gghd

LOl. I have NO problem w you calling me pope. Just down start bowing down to me or calling me “HOly FAThER”.

170 posted on 05/21/2012 7:55:53 AM PDT by swampfox101
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To: gghd
It’s bogus & deceitful for freerepublic to ...

One of the easiest problems a moderator can fix is a newbie's complaint about moderators on Free Republic.
171 posted on 05/21/2012 7:56:50 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: swampfox101; Religion Moderator; Salvation; Natural Law; Cronos; xone

Self-pope: All of us Roman Catholics will treat you like the Roman Catholic Pope is treated =

You can wash our >feet.

Name the time & place = we’ll show up.

A warning, self-pope = I gots me some real man-feet = big >super-stinky feet with hairy-ugly man-toes.

The Pope provides the soap & water + the towel to dry our feet. (you will need some >smelling-salts when I take off the shoes & socks from my >man feet.

Self-pope = your new title can be ‘feet washin’ self-pope’ as it has a nice-sound to it = a life of service instead of snark.

172 posted on 05/21/2012 9:37:42 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: gghd

Lol. You have a great sense of humor. Only one problem, don’t believe in footwashin’s either unless they are my own.

I’d be more than happpy though to help you buy some foot powder if you keep having trouble with stinky feet. Always willing to help.

gghd, have a good life.

173 posted on 05/21/2012 9:44:53 AM PDT by swampfox101
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To: Religion Moderator; Salvation; Natural Law; Cronos; xone

On Judgment Day, I will have to answer to Jesus Christ.

Let me quote Sarah Palin again, “If I die, I die; so be it!”

174 posted on 05/21/2012 12:47:13 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
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To: gghd
If I die, I die; so be it

Amen! zot

175 posted on 05/21/2012 1:57:58 PM PDT by xone
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To: Religion Moderator

Whatever JimRob pays you, sweetie, it ain’t enough! You have a tough job and you do it very well. Thank you for your service.

176 posted on 05/21/2012 5:20:32 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: swampfox101

Are you calling St. Peter an apostate?

I believe you need to go back and read the Bible some more.

177 posted on 05/21/2012 5:32:51 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: gghd

Perhaps he hasn’t read the Bible account of Jesus’ washing the feet of the apostles.


Perhaps, this doubt is a sin against the Holy Spirit, provider of all knowledge and wisdom. What do you think?

178 posted on 05/21/2012 5:35:07 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: xone

ditto!!! ;o)

179 posted on 05/21/2012 5:38:09 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Salvation

“Are you calling St. Peter an apostate?”

Matt. 15:8-9
“8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men”

Titus 1:13-15
“13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.”

Matthew 23:9
“9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.”

John 5:46-47
“46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

John 12:48-49
“48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. “

Luke 20:45-47
“45 Then, in the hearing of all the people, He said to His disciples, 46 “Beware of the scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, love greetings in the marketplaces, the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts, 47 who devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation.”

2 Thess. 2:3-5
“3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[a] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[b] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? “

Gal. 1:6-9
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Gal. 1:11-12
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Rom. 1:16-17
“16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

180 posted on 05/22/2012 9:40:44 AM PDT by swampfox101
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