Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Infallibility
Fisheaters.com ^ | not given | Fisheaters.com

Posted on 05/16/2012 11:39:02 AM PDT by Salvation

Infallibility

St. Peter, by Fernandes (detail)

Christ gave to Simon Peter and his successors, the Keys to the Kingdom and the power of binding and loosing. To the Popes was given the authority to teach. To them, in this regard, was given the charism of infallibility. "Infallibility" is not "impeccability" -- the inability to sin. Catholics do not believe that Popes are sinless and never err. Infallibility is simply a gift that is expressed in very specific ways, limited by Sacred Deposit of Faith -- Tradition, Scripture, and the unanimous writings of the early Fathers. As put by Vatican I:

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by His revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by His assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or Deposit of Faith transmitted by the Apostles.

Or, as put even more bluntly by Pope Pius XII in Mystici Coporis Christi:

[Nor] may anyone argue that the primacy of jurisdiction established in the Church gives such a Mystical Body two heads. For Peter in virtue of his Primacy is only Christ's Vicar; so that there is only one chief Head of this Body, namely Christ, who never ceases Himself to guide the Church invisible, though at the same time He rules it visibly, through Church rested not on Him alone, but on Peter too, its visible foundation stone.

The Pope may explain doctrines more fully, he may go more deeply into them, he can extrapolate from moral principles to shed light on new situations that arise, but he cannot contradict what has been handed down by Christ and the Apostles and still claim infallibility for that teaching.
 

Infallibility

Protestants believe the first Pope possessed the charism of infallibility.

Now, they might not believe that Peter was the first Pope (which he was), but they believe that his Epistles are infallible. They also believe that Luke, Matthew, Mark, Paul, Jude and John wrote infallibly. They believe that Moses "was infallible," too. And Hosea, Micah, Nehemiah, Isaiah, David, Solomon, Zechariah -- any Patriarch, Prophet, Apostle, or Evangelist who wrote a Bibilical Book is deemed by Protestants to be infallible.

But somehow they see things as having changed, and the idea of the gift of infallibility being given to man is laughed off as "Popish superstition" at best, and as "Romish sacrilege" at worst.

Why they believe this, when since Israel's origins God has always provided authoritative leaders, I don't know. From Abraham to Jacob to Moses to David to Solomon, et. al., throughout the thousands and thousands of years of Israel's existence, God gave Israel earthly authority. But Protestants see this authority as having abruptly ended when the Old Testament Covenant was fulfilled and Israel's King of Kings took on flesh.

Malachi 2-7
For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 23:2-3
The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

Did that earthly authorty pass away? If not, where did that authority pass on to?

Isaiah 22:21-23
And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house.

Matthew 16:18-19
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The authority passed to Peter and to the priests of the New Covenant.

"But we don't believe that Moses and Jacob and David were perfect! Look at David -- he committed adultery! Just because they wrote infallible books doesn't mean they were perfect!"

Precisely. And Catholics don't believe that Popes are perfect and can't sin or that every word a Pope mutters is infallible. When David whored around, he sinned. When Solomon prayed to pagan gods, he sinned. When Peter denied Christ three times, he sinned. When Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran or failed to deal with heretic, Modernist Bishops and homosexualist priests, he sinned. Impeccability is not a part of the deal -- but all of these sinners had/have the charism of infallibility.


 

How Infallibility Works

The Authentic (i.e. "authoritative") Magisterium of the Church -- i.e., the teaching office of the Church exercised by proper authority -- has different levels of infallibility:


In addition to Magisterium, the Pope can, of course, simply act as a private person and offer his personal opinions on anything from current events to sports to food to movies. These may be of interest to us Catholics, who tend to sensibly love -- or at least respect the office of -- the Holy Father, but they are not "Church teaching" in any way. In the same way, a Council may be called that is pastoral and not dogmatic in nature (such as Vatican II).

Now, some Catholics forget the second level of the Magisterium, the "Ordinary Infallible Magisterium." They forget the Sacred Deposit of Faith, the unanimous agreement of the early Christian Fathers, and Sacred Tradition. These "Catholics" are the "liberal Catholics" or "modernist Catholics" you hear so much from in the media. They are the ones who root for the ordination of women, the eradication of the Christian view of homosexuality, etc.  These are the well-organized, well-funded loudmouth "Catholics" who eat away at the Church's teachings and have become well-entrenched in various dioceses.

Another type of Catholic forgets about that third level of teaching that is not infallible at all. Any time the Pope teaches, he must be heard, his authority given respect, and the teaching given the benefit of the doubt because it comes from the Vicar of Christ. But if it contradicts prior infallible Magisterium, it is not infallible -- and it must not be obeyed if it proves harmful to the faith. Catholics who forget this level of Magisterium try very hard to be "orthodox" by being obedient, but they often have a false sense of obedience -- an obedience that sometimes borders on a pre-conscious papolatry ("pope worship"), though, of course, they know better and know that "worshipping the Pope" would be a terrible sin. They usually have a very healthy sensus catholicus, a desire for traditional Catholicism, and a virtuous patience, but they simply attribute to the Pope authority he does not have and they truly need to come to a better understanding of what the Magisterium is. These Catholics are often called "neo-conservatives," "conservatives," or "neo-Catholics" (they often think of and refer to themselves as "traditional Catholics" though they are not). You will see these otherwise wonderful Catholics tying themselves into knots trying to defend some of the novelties that followed Vatican II, or sweating bullets making excuses for some of the Holy Father's more scandalous actions (e.g., "ecumenical" services that include praying with Animists, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Protestants; allowing altar girls and "Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers", etc.), failures to act (e.g., lack of discipline given to Bishops), and opinions (e.g., support for the anti-subsidiarity, anti-life, anti-Christ United Nations).

Their desire to protect the Holy Father is understandable -- and laudable! -- especially since the papacy has been attacked so unfairly since the Protestant Rebellion and the ensuing secular revolution, most often with outrageous lies. But these Catholics have to wake up, study a bit, and defend true Catholic teaching as it has been known for 2,000 years.


 

How to recognize what is and isn't infallible

If it has always been taught by the Church as a matter of faith or morals, it is infallible. If it is a solemn definition, it is infallible.

Ex., you are reading two Encyclicals. The first Encyclical reads:

Venerable Brethren, the red dogs runs at night. The cow jumped over the Moon. Jesus Christ is God. Little Jack Horner sat in a corner. Women may not be ordained to the priesthood.

In this document, the only parts which would be infallible would be the lines "Jesus Christ is God" and "women may not be ordained to the priesthood" because these have always been taught. This is teaching at the level of the Universal Magisterium, which is infallible.

The second Encyclical reads:

By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that X, Y, Z. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith. And, by the way, the red dog runs at night.

Notice the explicit "we define" here? Notice that it is addressed to "anyone," not just to members of the Latin Church or of the Eastern Churches, etc.? Notice the penalty in place for non-acceptance of what is being said (if you don't believe this, you have fallen away from the Catholic Faith)? By these marks, you can know that infallible teaching is being expressed.

In this document, X, Y, and Z are infallible, but not "the red dog runs at night." This is teaching at the level of the Extraordinary (or Solemn) Magisterium, which is also infallible and is to be accepted "de fide." (Note: Protestants and uneducated Catholics who ask blankly, "Is Enclyclical X infallible?" need to recognize that a 100-page Encyclical may be written that is not infallible in any way, or has 10 paragraphs that are infallible, or 1 sentence that is infallible, etc.). This sort of exercise of the Solemn Magisterium is very rare, but very necessary when clarity is needed over a teaching that has always been taught, but whose details haven't been strictly defined.

All other teachings are owed obedience as long as they do not lead to a loss of Faith, harm the Church, impede the salvation of souls, lead to an evil, etc.

Summary:

How the teachings are passed down

In addition to the above authoritative excercises of the Magisterium is "ecclesiastical tradition." Ecclesiastical tradition is the body of disciplines and practices which Christ's Church has ordained to be the manner in which our Faith is lived out and expressed. To quote Brother Alexis Bugnolo, writing in Seattle Catholic:

Ecclesiastical Tradition is the term used by the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, in 787 A.D., to speak of those pious customs of the Churches founded by the Apostles, which in some manner correctly apply the Catholic Religion to concrete practice over many generations. It does this most importantly in its 4th Anathema:

"If anyone despises or rejects any written or unwritten ecclesiastical tradition, anathema sit."

Some examples cited by this council of ecclesiastical tradition are the veneration of the symbol of the Cross, icons, and statues. As an unwritten practice, kneeling for Communion is an ecclesiastical tradition.

The details of ecclesiastical tradition (small "T") are not a matter of dogma per se, but they are the inerrant manner in which dogma and doctrine are taught, learned, expressed, and lived. The details of ecclesiastical tradition may develop; they are not written in stone. But they may develop only slowly, "organically," in terms of quantity or quality (not substance), and in such a manner that is consistent with Natural Law and which better expresses the Faith (or at least doesn't harm the Faith, such as the novel practices since Vatican II do). Many of the problems in the Church since the Second Vatican Council stem from the almost complete eradication or revolutionizing of ecclesiastical tradition, in spite of the Second Council of Nicaea's anathema against such things and in spite of the fact that they have proven dangerous to the Faith.
 



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; pope; stpeter; whatacrock
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-181 next last
Impeccability is not a part of the deal -- but all of these sinners had/have...

Extra information for all at How Infallibility Works

1 posted on 05/16/2012 11:39:03 AM PDT by Salvation
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Infallibility
Papal Infallibility: A Symbolic, Yet Problematic, Term
Essays for Lent: Papal Infallibility
Did Martin Luther Act Infallibly in Defining What Books Belong in the Bible?
Radio Replies Second Volume - Infallibility
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Charism of Infallibility: The Magisterium
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Charism of Truth Handling: Infallibility
Radio Replies First Volume - Infallibility

Infallible Infallibility
Docility (on Catholic dogma and infallibility)
Beginning Catholic: Infallibility: Keeping the Faith [Ecumenical]
Papal Infallibility [Ecumenical]
Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)
Pope: may all Christians recognize true meaning of Peter’s primacy
THE PRIMACY OF THE SUCCESSOR OF PETER IN THE MYSTERY OF THE CHURCH
Pope St. Leo the Great and the Petrine Primacy
The Epiphany of the Roman Primacy
THE PRIMACY OF THE SUCCESSOR OF PETER IN THE MYSTERY OF THE CHURCH [Ratzinger]

2 posted on 05/16/2012 11:43:22 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Catholic Ping.


3 posted on 05/16/2012 11:47:41 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

Let the hijacking begin!


4 posted on 05/16/2012 12:03:47 PM PDT by steve8714 (Who didn't already know Obama was our first gay President?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
There can only be one Truth.

Paul warned us about those introducing false teachings, "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Tim. 4:3–4).

The protestant “reformation” is simply not Biblical:

“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 1Cor 1:10-17

You could easily read the above as “One of you says, "I follow Luther"; another, "I follow Calvin"; another, "I follow Wesley"; still another, "I follow Christ."

Christians cannot be “perfectly united in mind and thought” when they have different beliefs on, say, the necessity of water baptism, while others believe “This is my Body” means “This is a cookie”

God bless in your journey to the truth.

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Mat 28:18-20

Fortunately, we have Christ’s promise that heresies will never prevail against the Church. They will arise, endure sometimes for centuries, like Protestantism, but we can be confident in Christ’s promise that the Church He established will always teach the Truth.

5 posted on 05/16/2012 12:20:48 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

Everyone knows where this going.

I heard Patrick Madrid on Catholic-Radio talking about the infallibility of the Pope.
Patrick Madrid said something like this: Just about everyone thinks someone is ‘infallible’ when teaching about religion. It may be themselves, Uncle-Harry, their minister or a televangelist. People learn ‘truths’ about religion & the Bible & they ‘believe it’ no matter what is >actually in the Bible.

Joe: ‘The Pope ain’t infallible.’
Moe: ‘How do you know? Are you the Pope? Are you infallible?’
Joe: ‘I ain’t no Pope & ain’t infallible. No one is infallible!’
Moe: ‘You just admitted you’re not infallible = you can be >wrong! Maybe, the Pope is infallible & you don’t know what you’re talking about. You just be admitting your own short-comings.’
Joe: ‘Why am talking to you? If I wanted to hear about my short comings & failures, I’d go home & listen to my wife & mother-in-law.’


6 posted on 05/16/2012 1:00:23 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

Rom. 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


7 posted on 05/16/2012 1:04:44 PM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: steve8714

Do ‘t invite them! LOL!

They don’t believew Jesus when he gave the Keys to the Kingdom to Peter!

Yet they believe in Peter’s books in the Bible.

Where is their truth?


8 posted on 05/16/2012 1:59:56 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101

Did you read the article?

Infalliability isn’t about not sinning......that word is impeccability.

A Pope is human, just like us. He at least goes to Confession weekly, and I think I remember Pope John Paul II going to Confession daily.

Please go back and read that in the article!


9 posted on 05/16/2012 2:02:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Definition of INFALLIBLE 1: incapable of error : unerring 2: not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : certain 3: incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals
10 posted on 05/16/2012 2:17:17 PM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

John 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

John 16:13
“However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.”

John 16:17
“Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.”

Romans 2:10,11
“ but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.”


11 posted on 05/16/2012 2:57:19 PM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

Text: Matthew 16:13-20

Is the Papcy Biblical

I. The world was fascinated with the process the Roman Catholic Church used to pick a new pope.

A. We were given detailed accounts of all the traditions surrounding a pope’s selection

B. We were shown the events step by step.

C. But in all the hoopla, how many wondered where the papacy came from?

1. It certainly wasn’t from the Bible because popes are not mentioned in the text.

2. Nor can you find cardinals, let alone elections, or colored smoke and the like.

D. The Roman Catholic Church bases it’s papacy on a set of beliefs

1. That Peter was the rock on which the church was founded

2. That Peter was the chief apostle

3. That there has be a succession to the apostles

E. While other denominations reject the papacy, the Roman Catholic church is not alone in these basic tenets.

1. Several major denominations believe that their leaders are a in a succession of leaders dating back to the apostles: one leader being appointed by other leaders, who were in turn appointed, and so on back to the days of the apostles.

2. The Episcopal Church and the Greek Orthodox Church are notable representatives of this belief.

II. Was Peter the rock? - Matthew 16:18

A. Much is made of the fact that Peter’s name means “stone” (Greek: petros)

1. What is glossed over is that Jesus said upon this rock (Greek: petra) I will build my church. There is a change in terms.

2. To slide around the difficulty, you will find people saying that Matthew was originally written in Aramaic, where the two words are the same. It is then argued that the difference was introduced by the translator to bring stylistic variances so it would be easier to read in Greek.

a. But wait! No Aramaic version of Matthew exists!

b. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: “One thing which seems certain is that whatever this Hebrew (Aramaic) document may have been, it was not an original form from which the present Greek Gospel of Matthew was translated, either by the apostle himself, or by somebody else ... Indeed, the Greek Matthew throughout bears the impression of being not a translation at all, but as having been originally written in Greek.”

c. Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible: “It must be admitted, however, that no fragment of an Aramaic Matthew has ever been found and a Greek edition is more plausible than a Greek translation. Matthew’s gospel does not give evidence of being a translation, which is one of the weak evidences for the Aramaic theory.”

d. What leads scholars to admit that Matthew was written in Greek and not Aramaic?

(1) The little interpretations imbedded in the text - Matthew 1:23

(2) The smoothness of the word flow in Greek – especially idioms.

e. Besides other know translations, such as the Latin Vulgate preserves the different genders of the two words, using petrus (masculine) and petram (feminine) in it’s translation.

3. Some will say, Jesus spoke Aramaic and this was just translated by Matthew into Greek.

a. If so, Matthew was guided by the Holy Spirit in his writing - I Corinthians 2:12-13

b. Therefore the difference was by the choice of God, not man

B. Just who was the rock?

1. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be the foundation - Isaiah 28:16

2. Paul said Jesus was the Rock - I Corinthians 10:4

3. Peter quotes Isaiah and applies it to Jesus - I Peter 2:4-8

a. In this passage, Peter uses the Greek word lithos for stone

b. But note verse 8, he also calls Jesus a rock (Greek: petra) of offense – the same word Jesus used to say that upon this His church would be built.

c. Peter is claimed to be the Rock, but Peter said the rock was Christ!

4. The only foundation is Jesus Christ - I Corinthians 3:11

C. What was the rock in Matthew 16:18?

1. It was what Peter confessed, that Jesus was the Son of the Living God.

2. The truth of who Jesus was, is the foundation of the church.

III. Was Peter the chief apostle?

A. One proof offered is that when apostles are named, Peter always comes first.

1. While generally true, it is not always true - John 1:44; I Corinthians 3:22; 9:5; Galatians 2:9

2. Nor was Peter always first, such as at the foot washing - John 13:6

B. Another proof is the claim that Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom - Matthew 16:19

1. Yet it is ignored that Jesus repeated this in Matthew 18:18-20 to all the apostles.

2. When the church was founded, Peter was the main speaker, but notice - Acts 2:14

3. The foundation was laid on all the apostles - Ephesians 2:19-21

C. A few Catholics will claim that Peter was head of the council in Jerusalem, demonstrating his headship

1. However, Acts 15 shows that Peter testified at the council as had Paul and Barnabas - Acts 15:7, 12

2. But it was James who summed up the findings - Acts 15:13

3. And it was James who made the recommendation on how to solve the problem - Acts 15:19-20

4. The letter came from the group, not Peter - Acts 15:23

D. Paul said he was not inferior to the other apostles - II Corinthians 11:5; 12:11

E. Peter refused homage - Acts 10:26, something the popes have never refused.

F. Peter saw himself as a fellow elder, one of many - I Peter 5:1

G. Paul properly rebuked Peter for following James’ lead - Galatians 2:11-12

H. The closest claim is that James, Peter, and John seemed to be pillars in the church - Galatians 2:9. No where is there a claim that any single man was the pillar of the church.

I. Odd that when the apostles argued about who would be first, that Jesus rebuked them - Luke 9:46-48; 22:24-27

1. It was this desire for pre-eminence that Jesus condemned in the Jews - Matthew 23:6-11

2. This is why Jesus commanded no titles, such as “father.”

a. Yet Catholics call their priests “father”

b. The word “pope” is Latin for “father”

c. The very establishment of the pope is contrary to the wishes of the church’s founder, Jesus Christ.

3. Pope’s title: Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of Saint Peter, Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Patriarch of the West, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of Vatican City State

IV. Was Peter succeeded?

A. A Catechism of Christian Doctrine: “Did Christ intend that the special power of chief teacher and ruler of the entire church should be exercised by Saint Peter alone? Christ did not intend that the special power of chief teacher and ruler of the entire church should be exercised by Saint Peter alone, but intended that this power should be passed down to his successor, the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth and the visible head of the Church. (a) A successor to Saint Peter, the first Bishop of Rome, was required for the same reason that successors were required for the other apostles. From the very beginning it was acknowledged by the Church that the successor of Saint Peter as Bishop of Rome was at the same time head of the entire Church. This successor of Saint Peter is called the Pope.”

B. The claim is flawed on many levels.

1. There is no proof that Peter was bishop in Rome.

a. The claim is based on a Roman Catholic tradition.

b. It is not found in the Bible

c. Nor is there historical evidence that I am aware of.

2. The first claim for succession of authority from Peter that we have recorded is by Stephen I in 250 AD; long after Peter’s death.

3. The claim that it has always been so is historically false

a. Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, 248-258 AD, “None of us has ever dared to proclaim himself bishop of bishops, forcing with tyrannical terror the obedience of his colleagues ...”

b. It was Leo I (440-461 AD) who got the Roman Emperor, Valentinian III, to issue an edict declaring the Roman See as the supreme court of appeal for all bishops. The fact that such as declaration was necessary indicates it was in dispute.

c. And it was Augustine in Carthage who wrote in 430 AD, “Anyone who appeals to those overseas [i.e. Rome] shall not be received by the communion of the bishops of Africa.”

4. Interestingly, the first person to claim the title of pope was the bishop of Constantinople in 588 AD.

a. In response, the bishop of Rome, Gregory I, wrote: “You know it, my brother; had not the venerable council fo Chalcedon conferred the honorary title of universal upon the bishop of this apostolic See, whereof I am, by God’s Will, the servant, And yet none of us hath permitted this title to be given him; none has assumed this bold title, lest by assuming a special episcopate, we should seem to refuse it to all other brethren ... But far from Christians be this blasphemous name by which all honor is taken from all other priests, while it is foolishly arrogated by one.”

b. Gregory I also wrote: “I am bold to say, that whosoever adopts or affects the title of universal bishop has the pride and character of anti-Christ, and is in some manner his forerunner in this haughty quality of elevating himself above the rest of his order.”

c. In 604 AD, the emperor Phocas tried to give the title to Gregory I, but he refused it. However, his successor, Boniface III, accepted the title in 607 AD.

V. The claim for a universal head of the church, resting upon a man living upon the earth is clearly a man-made doctrine that took centuries to develop

A. There is no support for the office, the nature of the office, or even a remote concept within the Scriptures.

B. Why modify the truth? Why follow a religion that is the figment of man’s imagination?

C. Come to Christ, the true head of His church.


12 posted on 05/16/2012 3:02:18 PM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101

Catholics believe that Christ is the head of the Church.

I wonder at some of you guys/gals and where you get these weird ideas.

The Bible states: He said, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life.”

We believe that — now perhaps you will believe me.


13 posted on 05/16/2012 3:09:25 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Deut. 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

2 Sam. 22:2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; 3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."

1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ>."

Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

God knows of no other rock. I'll stay with what He says.

14 posted on 05/16/2012 3:26:32 PM PDT by CynicalBear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101; Salvation
"Definition of INFALLIBLE..."

Please do not attempt to use secular and vernacular sources to dispute the definitions and meanings the Catholic Church uses in describing itself and it's doctrines and dogmas. When we very narrowly define a word for use in communicating it is done with the expressed purpose of NOT using allowing the secular world to define us and what we believe. You have no idea how irritating and dismaying it can be to make a very specific statement about what we as a Church or we as individuals mean and have non-Catholics and poorly catechised Catholics reply with "no you don't".

15 posted on 05/16/2012 3:37:03 PM PDT by Natural Law (Mary was the face that God chose for Himself.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101; Religion Moderator
You forgot to cite your source

lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVSermons/IsThePapacyBiblical.htm

16 posted on 05/16/2012 3:41:29 PM PDT by Natural Law (Mary was the face that God chose for Himself.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: steve8714

Okay. Is this thread about Humblegunner?


17 posted on 05/16/2012 4:00:00 PM PDT by rabidralph
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Trying again, huh?

Protestants believe the first Pope possessed the charism of infallibility. Now, they might not believe that Peter was the first Pope (which he was), but they believe that his Epistles are infallible. They also believe that Luke, Matthew, Mark, Paul, Jude and John wrote infallibly. They believe that Moses "was infallible," too. And Hosea, Micah, Nehemiah, Isaiah, David, Solomon, Zechariah -- any Patriarch, Prophet, Apostle, or Evangelist who wrote a Bibilical Book is deemed by Protestants to be infallible. But somehow they see things as having changed, and the idea of the gift of infallibility being given to man is laughed off as "Popish superstition" at best, and as "Romish sacrilege" at worst.

No, "Protestants" do NOT believe Peter nor any of the other "writers" of Scripture were infallible, only that what they wrote down under Divine-inspiration is infallible. It is the word of God, itself, which is infallible, not the man God chose to pen it. And just because God chose them, does not mean whatever they say outside of Divinely inspired, God-breathed Scripture is infallible either. It is no different today and we still have the Holy Scriptures as God's infallible truth revealed to mankind. IT is our standard and authority because it comes from God.

18 posted on 05/16/2012 10:27:20 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

Catholics believe that Christ is the head of the Church.

Col. 1:17-19
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

We can agree on that point.

I wonder at some of you guys/gals and where you get these weird ideas.

Huh? Weird....! Catholics need to look in the mirror.

The Bible states: He said, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life.”

The Bible also says in 1 Timothy 2:5:

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,”

It also says in Hebrews 8:3:

“For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law;”

We believe that — now perhaps you will believe me.

I believe the scriptures which are God’s words. John 14:26, John 16:13, Ps. 119:160, and John 17:17.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


19 posted on 05/17/2012 7:09:50 AM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Natural Law

A dictionary can be a very frightening thing huh?


20 posted on 05/17/2012 7:13:14 AM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

Amen....!


21 posted on 05/17/2012 7:14:57 AM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101
"A dictionary can be a very frightening thing huh?"

Not nearly as frightening as willful ignorance. The truth is always better served when one is willing to listen to the author of a statement explain what was meant rather than attempting to tell the author what he "really" meant. What does your secular dictionary say about Deuteronomy 9:23: "In like manner shalt thou do with his ass..."?

Peace to you.

22 posted on 05/17/2012 8:25:11 AM PDT by Natural Law (Mary was the face that God chose for Himself.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101; boatbums

Please read my comment #6. Obviously, the two of you do not believe in the infallibility of the Pope.

YET, you seem to have reached an ‘infallible’ conclusion about scripture in >your mind.
Are you infallible? Yes or No?
Do you have an infallible understanding of scripture? Yes or No?
You might be wrong? Yes or No?

Where did you get your understanding of the scripture? Did you go to a >real school & study the Bible? Yes or No?
Or is God ‘speaking’ to your heart & ‘giving you’ an >infallible message?
Are your ‘revelations’ infallible? Yes or No?

It’s easy for someone to comment on a Catholic thread. But the folks that are always doin’ a lot of carping never tell us about their >religion.

Tell us swapfox101 & boatbums = ARE YOU INFALLABLE? The answer is either Yes or No.


23 posted on 05/17/2012 8:28:52 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: gghd

I’m just a sinner. Rom 3:23 But God’s word is truth (John 17:17) and given to us by his Spirit (2 Tim 3:16). Therefor his word is infilibility because God cannot lie..!(Titus 1:2)


24 posted on 05/17/2012 9:22:32 AM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Natural Law

“Not nearly as frightening as willful ignorance.”

Acts 3:17“Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers”.

“The truth is always better served when one is willing to listen to the author of a statement explain what was meant rather than attempting to tell the author what he “really” meant.”

God’s word is truth. (John 17:17) His word(gospel) is the “power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16)and in his gospel the righteousness of God is revealed. Rom. 1:17) And, it is with these words that we are saved. (Acts 11:14)

“What does your secular dictionary say about Deuteronomy 9:23:”

Right here, Moses reached the climax of Israel’s rebellions. “They did not believe God! ... This was the cardinal sin in the old dispensation as well as in the new.

“In like manner shalt thou do with his ass...”?

Peace to you.

And to u


25 posted on 05/17/2012 9:53:13 AM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101

That’s an extremely >cryptic answer. I was looking for a simple = Yes or No!

As I understand >your answer: you believe >you have an >infallible understanding of Scripture & >you believe that >you are being guided to truth by >God.

It seems >you think >you are a type of >pope in >your church.

The argument >you present is NOT NOT NOT really about the infallibility of the Catholic Pope.
It’s really about: “Who be the real-pope?” Please look again at my comment #6 & especially ‘Patrick Madrid’s comment about infallibility.


26 posted on 05/17/2012 10:51:39 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: gghd

That’s an extremely >cryptic answer. I was looking for a simple = Yes or No!

There was NO simple yes or no question.

As I understand >your answer: you believe >you have an >infallible understanding of Scripture & >you believe that >you are being guided to truth by >God.

Do you beieve God’s word to be truth? (John 17:17)

Do you believe God’s Holy Spirit made a mistake in revealing His Word to mankind? (John 14:26 and John 16:13)

Do you believe God’s word is the power of God to salvation? (Rom. 1:16)

Do you believe God righteousness is revealed in the scriptures? (Rom. 1:17)

Do you believe that “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)?

Do you believe the Word became flesh? (”And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”)

Do you believe something more than God’s word is needed for salvation?

It seems >you think >you are a type of >pope in >your church.

I’m no pope, I have only 1(one) HIGH PRIEST and that is Jesus Christ and NONE OTHER....! And, I have only one mediator between God and me and that is Jesus Christ and none other. I don’t need a pope for an advocate, I have Jesus Christ. (1 John 2:1, 1 Tim. 2:5) Do you think you need another earthly, sinful advocate other than Christ?

Do you have more than one spiritual Father?

The argument >you present is NOT NOT NOT really about the infallibility of the Catholic Pope.

The pope as u choose to call him is a mere man. He’s just a sinner and is NO BETTER than you or me. He in in NO WAY infallible PERIOD. (Rom. 3:23)

It’s really about: “Who be the real-pope?” Please look again at my comment #6

We know who the REAl HIGH PRIEST IS AND He is Jesus Christ. The question is who do you believe. The Catholic Church of God’s word.

& especially ‘Patrick Madrid’s comment about infallibility.


27 posted on 05/17/2012 11:38:49 AM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101

I do believe you are confusing impeccability with infallibility.

It’s obvious, you think you have an infallible understanding of scripture. We can see this ‘truth’ in all your answers.

Maybe, that explains your motive to come on to a Catholic thread & attack the Catholic Pope & Catholic understanding of Scripture.

Obviously swampfox101, you must think you be the pope of your church & have the ability to pontificate infallibility about scripture.

Just out of curiosity: Who elected you pope of your church?
Or, were you appointed by God as pope of your church as part of his infallible design for the salvation of the entire world?


28 posted on 05/17/2012 12:16:27 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: gghd

I see you are good at deflecting questions and very poor at answering them.

“I do believe you are confusing impeccability with infallibility.”

I answereed you question on this, you just don’t like the answer.

It’s obvious, you think you have an infallible understanding of scripture.

I don’t believe that at all but I do believe God’s word is infallible. Do you?

Do you think God’s Holy Spirit made a mistake in revealing His GOSPEL to mankind? Do you think the Spirit made it so difficutlt to understand that man in incapable of understanding it? Do you believe God’s word to be TRUTH? Do you believe the WORD became Flesh? Do you believe the gospel can save your soul or do you believe something more is needed?

We can see this ‘truth’ in all your answers.

You are seeing only what u want too see. NO MAN is infallible PERIOD ONLY GOD’S WORD.

Maybe, that explains your motive to come on to a Catholic thread & attack the Catholic Pope & Catholic understanding of Scripture.

I have given you Chapter and verse in God’s word for everything that I have stated, you keep referring to some man and his writing. You can deflect all you want, what your can’t respond to is God’s word.

Obviously swampfox101, you must think you be the pope of your church & have the ability to pontificate infallibility about scripture.

I only quote to you God’s word, I will leave it up to you as to whether or not you think it is infallible. You do think God’s word is infallible don’t you?

Just out of curiosity: Who elected you pope of your church?

My church has NO POPE, only Jesus as HIGH PRIEST? Who is your POPE?

Or, were you appointed by God as pope of your church as part of his infallible design for the salvation of the entire world?

NO. God appointed HIS SON as HIGH PRIEST OF MY CHURCH. HIS infallible design for salvation in laid out in HIS WORD which is truth. John 17:17.

Who wrote the design for salvation in your chruch, GOD OR MAN?


29 posted on 05/17/2012 1:01:34 PM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101

Swampfox101, you be the one NOT NOT answering questions. I ask you: how come >you think your interpretation of Scripture is infallible? You do NOT NOT answer that question.

You quote all these Bible verses that to >you are relevant to infallibility of the Pope. There are other comments that are posted that speak >directly to God’s plan for a Church.

Please read the Bible. You may notice: Jesus Christ did not carry around a big sack of Bibles in the Holy Land. Jesus Christ built a Church. Jesus Christ told the >first Pope, ‘on you I will build my Church.’

Please call up the Pope of the Catholic Church. Ask the Pope, ‘How many Priests are in the Catholic Church?’
I’ll answer for the Pope: The Pope would say there is only >one high-Priest in the Catholic Church & He is Jesus Christ.

All the Priests here on earth stand in for Jesus Christ & carry on the work of Jesus Christ which is building up His body The >Church. All the human-Priests would say, Jesus Christ gave authority to the first >Apostles. & That authority has been handed on >unbroken from human-Priest to human-Priest for >two thousands years.

I keep calling you the >pope of your church because you do NOT NOT tell us the title you have in >your church that gives you the authority to interpret scripture infallibly.

Some folks are known as the Grand-Poobah or the walking Urim-Thummim of the New New covenant church. What is exactly is your Moniker in your church? Swampfox101 doesn’t sound like a very biblical title.

When you ask me ‘What do you believe?’ My answer is: ‘I believe what the Catholic Church teaches.’ There are a series of teaching posted by salvation on freerepublic about the Catholic Church & its beliefs.

What we do NOT NOT know here on this thread is “Where do you get your >authority that >you can state >infallible truths about scripture.”
Be direct, please tell us where do you get your >authority to speak with infallibility?


30 posted on 05/17/2012 2:05:40 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: gghd

“Swampfox101, you be the one NOT NOT answering questions. I ask you: how come >”

Again you deflect and don’t answer. (1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;)

“you think your interpretation of Scripture is infallible? You do NOT NOT answer that question.”

When I have stated something, I gave you chapter and verse to back up what I am saying. What did I write that was not biblical? What verse what taken out of context. I am willing to search any verse in the Bible you send me.

“You quote all these Bible verses that to >you are relevant to infallibility of the Pope.”

I also quoted verses that are relevant to me, you, and ALL CHRISTIANS. I quoted those verses from God’s word to let you know that I wasn’t just spouting something I had heard. Verses like John 1:1, John 14:16, John 16:13 and others. These were quoted for the purpose of helping you understand if you chose to look at those scriptures.

There are other comments that are posted that speak >directly to God’s plan for a Church.

People make up God’s Church and God speaks to His Church(people) through His Son and only His Son today. (Hebrews 1:1) If God is writing something that speaks directly to God’s plan for the Church, does that not include me and other Christians? If I am a Christian, am I not part of the Church?

“Please read the Bible. You may notice: Jesus Christ did not carry around a big sack of Bibles in the Holy Land.”

Jesus didn’t have to carry a stack of Bibles around, he was the word. (John 1:1) Do you not understand that Jesus was the word become flesh? ( John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”)

Jesus knew that the apostles that He chose would not remember everything that He taught them, so he made them a promise.(John 14:26 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”) Jesus sent His own Spirit to guide these men in writing His gospel. Truth (John 17:17)

“Jesus Christ built a Church. Jesus Christ told the >first Pope,”

Where in the “Whole” of the Bible does it say Peter was a Pope? Could you please give me book, chapter, and verse. In fact, could you please give me any book, chapter, or verse in the bible that uses the word pope?

“‘on you I will build my Church.’”

The Church wasn’t built on Peter, it was built on His cofession of Jesus being the Christ.(Matthew 16;17-19 “Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[a] in heaven.”)
Why? Because Peter recognized who Jesus was..! The Church was built on Jesus. Jesus is the chief corner stone, not Peter.(Luke 20:17 “Then He looked at them and said, “What then is this that is written:‘The stone which the builders rejectedHas become the chief cornerstone’?)

Do you honestly think God would build His Church upon a mere man? Especially a man that denied His own savior just a few short yrs. earlier...!

Please call up the Pope of the Catholic Church. Ask the Pope, ‘How many Priests are in the Catholic Church?’

God’s Church is a royal priest hood. All christians are priest and Jesus in our High Priest. (1 Peter 2:9 “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;”)

I don’t need a any man to tell me that. I have God’s word. (Hebrews 4:13-15 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.)

I’ll answer for the Pope: The Pope would say there is only >one high-Priest in the Catholic Church & He is Jesus Christ.

And ur Pope would be correct. Their is only ONE HIGH PRIEST. But you don’t even need the pope to tell you that, you have God’s word.

All the Priests here on earth stand in for Jesus Christ & carry on the work of Jesus Christ which is building up His body The >Church.

All Christians are priest and our job as priest is to fulfill the commission Jesus gave us to do. (Matthew 28:18-20 “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.)

All the human-Priests would say, Jesus Christ gave authority to the first >Apostles. & That authority has been handed on >unbroken from human-Priest to human-Priest for >two thousands years.

The keys that were given to Peter were given to all the apostles. Paul and others were NO less apostles that Peter. Peter was not in any way over the other apostles. They were all equal. Just as all priest are equal today. God is NO Respector of any man. (2 Cor. 11:5 5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles. )

I keep calling you the >pope of your church because you do NOT NOT tell us the title you have in >your church

My title is believer. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, I am a mere man, a Christian. I have NO title or position.

that gives you the authority to interpret scripture infallibly.

I don’t interpret anything, I just take God at His word. If God throuh the scripture says His Son is our High Priest, I believe it, Period. No more no less. I just read God’s word and I believe it. How bout you? Is God’s word good enough for you or do you needd more? Do you think God’s word can be improve upon? Just curious....! I believe and obey, do you....?

Some folks are known as the Grand-Poobah or the walking Urim-Thummim of the New New covenant church.

In my church that role is reserved for Jesus Christ? How about you? What man in ur Church in your “Grand-Poobah?

What is exactly is your Moniker in your church?

I”m just a pilgrim a sojourner,( 1 Peter 2:11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul,”) a sinner.”(”Rom. 3;23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”) How bout you? What is exactly your moniker in your Church?

Swampfox101 doesn’t sound like a very biblical title.

NO but it is patriotic.

When you ask me ‘What do you believe?’ My answer is: ‘I believe what the Catholic Church teaches.’

I believe what the Bible teaches. It is from God and it has the power to save. (Rom. 1:16 & 17 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.””)

There are a series of teaching posted by salvation on freerepublic about the Catholic Church & its beliefs.

I have seen some of them.

What we do NOT NOT know here on this thread is “Where do you get your >authority

I have NO authority, I just read God’s word and quote it. The authority is all God’s no mine.

that >you can state >infallible truths about scripture.”

Becaus God’s word is infallible. I believe God and I believe His word, and I believe His word is truth. Do you have evidence to the contary? (John 17:17 “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. “)

Be direct, please tell us where do you get your >authority to speak with infallibility?

God’s word. The Bible. Where do you get yours? From God or From men or a group of men?


31 posted on 05/17/2012 4:54:12 PM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101

As I understand your answer: You are now admitting >you are >not infallible. That means you >can be >wrong.

Swampfox101, you have cited a number of passages from the Bible based on >your >fallible interpretation.

God walked Holy Lands building a Church. God promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church.

The Bible & history actually proves that the Roman Catholic Church is the True Church set up by Jesus Christ.

You quote the Bible quite a bit & because you say it, you announce to all of us >your interpretation must be true. Thank you for admitting that >your interpretation may be wrong & that you are fallible.
Swampfox101, your interpretation is only correct when it is completely compatible with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2813123/posts.
Here is a start about the Roman Catholic Church being the one true Church. The person posting as ‘salvation’ can provide all the links you need to start learning about the Catholic Church.

Please go to the Vatican website & look up the information contained in this post:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2875690/posts.
God gives >everyone the opportunity & the sufficient grace to get into Heaven. It’s a teaching of the Catholic Church.

You will notice that ‘boatbums’ name appears in the last ‘thread.’

Some folks want to just argue & not try to understand a Church that has been here on Earth for >two thousands years.

The person posting this thread has >numerous teachings about the Catholic Church & the Doctrines of the Church. Anyone that is >truly interested in the Catholic Church can ask for her to post a link to information.

Also, That’s a good Moniker. All I know about the Swampfox is from the Walt Disney movies. I’ve never seen the Mel Gibson movie. However, Mel Gibson’s movie about ‘The Passion of The Christ’ has an extraordinary portrayal of the Stations of the Cross.


32 posted on 05/17/2012 5:43:36 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: CynicalBear
God knows of no other rock. I'll stay with what He says.

So will I! In fact, even the Apostle Peter says so:

I Peter 2:5-10
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

33 posted on 05/17/2012 6:40:42 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: steve8714; Salvation
Let the hijacking begin!

Two things, if it's "hijacking" that you guys are afraid of, quit posting provoking threads that criticize other Christian traditions. Then second, when you state something negative and/or incorrect about "Protestants", then why shouldn't you expect some responses back? Hijacking, indeed! Maybe somebody needs some thicker skin.

34 posted on 05/17/2012 6:47:11 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
They don’t believew Jesus when he gave the Keys to the Kingdom to Peter! Yet they believe in Peter’s books in the Bible. Where is their truth?

Is that even a serious question? After all this time you SHOULD know where "our" truth is. It is the Holy Scriptures, The Holy Bible, because that is the ONLY thing God gave us that is infallible. The very words Jesus spoke while here on earth were written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit just as they were when Jesus ascended back to heaven, he continued to reveal truth through the Holy Spirit to those who were chosen to write it down.

Did Jesus give the "keys of the kingdom" to Peter? Yes, He did, but he gave those same keys to the other disciples as well. As much as I like jokes starting with, "St. Peter was standing at the pearly gates...", he isn't. The Gospel of Jesus Christ IS the key and it is the faith in that Gospel, in Him, which is what the church is built upon. I believe Jesus, not some ambitious guys hundreds of years later who thought having a pope/king would help consolidate their power.

35 posted on 05/17/2012 7:00:31 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

I think threads like this are not necessarily provocative, they are factual. It’s that someone of a different stripe might think they are being provoked.

I post threads for the educational content — usuall — today I posted a fun one about dissident nuns, but posters either show ther learning and understanding or lack of learning and understanding on the threads.

They can be quite entertaining as well as the source for some good discussion.


36 posted on 05/17/2012 7:06:43 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: gghd; swampfox101
You will notice that ‘boatbums’ name appears in the last ‘thread.’ Some folks want to just argue & not try to understand a Church that has been here on Earth for >two thousands years.

You're supposed to ping someone when you mention their name. If you are referring to me as that "some folks" who want to argue and not try to understand, you couldn't be more wrong. Every doctrine I dispute of the Catholic Church's is based upon full knowledge of what the church teaches and how what Scripture teaches is counter to it. Now maybe you are incapable of accepting that your church could ever BE wrong about anything, but that is a whole different argument.

I hope you understand why I ignored your tricky little challenge to us. As swampfox has seen by your responses, there is no point in answering someone who has no interest in the answer and, instead, is out to prove their own point. The Pharisees tried the same tactic on our Savior many times and he refused to play their game. However, if you ever do have a sincere question about why I left the Roman Catholic Church, I would be more than happy to tell you.

37 posted on 05/17/2012 7:19:47 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
I think threads like this are not necessarily provocative, they are factual. It’s that someone of a different stripe might think they are being provoked.

Not "necessarily" provocative? Did you read the whole thing before you posted it? Here is the part that was provocative and NOT factual and which prompted my response:

Protestants believe the first Pope possessed the charism of infallibility.

Now, they might not believe that Peter was the first Pope (which he was), but they believe that his Epistles are infallible. They also believe that Luke, Matthew, Mark, Paul, Jude and John wrote infallibly. They believe that Moses "was infallible," too. And Hosea, Micah, Nehemiah, Isaiah, David, Solomon, Zechariah -- any Patriarch, Prophet, Apostle, or Evangelist who wrote a Bibilical Book is deemed by Protestants to be infallible.

But somehow they see things as having changed, and the idea of the gift of infallibility being given to man is laughed off as "Popish superstition" at best, and as "Romish sacrilege" at worst.

Why they believe this, when since Israel's origins God has always provided authoritative leaders, I don't know. From Abraham to Jacob to Moses to David to Solomon, et. al., throughout the thousands and thousands of years of Israel's existence, God gave Israel earthly authority. But Protestants see this authority as having abruptly ended when the Old Testament Covenant was fulfilled and Israel's King of Kings took on flesh.

The author was purposely provocative as well as incorrect - not factual. You and I have had this conversation many times and, regardless of your intent - be it learning or "entertainment" - it should not come as a surprise when others disagree and do so sometimes forcefully. It isn't a game to me.

38 posted on 05/17/2012 7:31:58 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

This is a Catholic thread, and was hijacked even as I predicted.


39 posted on 05/17/2012 9:17:53 PM PDT by steve8714 (Who didn't already know Obama was our first gay President?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: boatbums; swampfox101

I apologize for not ‘pinging’ you. I sent the first comment to you & swampfox. Some how the conversation became between swampfox & me.

I apologize to you again.

But as you are now back in the conversation =
Are you = boatbums = infallible? Do you ever think you may be >wrong when you express your understanding of Jesus Christ & the teachings of the Catholic Church?

It’s been my observation (like Patrick Madrid’s) that the real argument about infallibility is about:
Who possesses the gift of infallibility given by God.

There are a lot of folks that think they are the ‘pope’ of scripture & their understanding of ‘scripture’ is the >only true interpretation.

Are you infallible, boatbums?

It is NOT NOT a trick question. It’s a simple = Yes or No!
I can answer the question = just watch!!!

I gghd am a fallible person & I do NOT NOT have the same charism as any true Catholic Pope. The Pope is infallible as set out in the article leading this thread.

Are you infallible?


40 posted on 05/17/2012 9:24:11 PM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: steve8714

The article includes references to Protestantism and therefore would not have qualified for a “Catholic Caucus” on the Religion Forum.


41 posted on 05/17/2012 9:41:05 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: steve8714
This is a Catholic thread, and was hijacked even as I predicted.

It may be about Catholicism, but it is neither a Catholic thread nor a Catholic CAUCUS thread. If it were a Caucus thread, then there would be no expectation of contrary comments. It could not BE a caucus thread anyway because of the inclusion of comments about "Protestants" which opens it up to opposing viewpoints from Protestants. It is an OPEN Religion Forum thread which means adversarial comments should be expected. No hijacking necessary. Per the Moderator, those with thin skin should avoid open religion forum threadss.

42 posted on 05/17/2012 10:40:10 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: gghd

“As I understand your answer: You are now admitting >you are >not infallible. That means you >can be >wrong.”

I have said from the very beginning that I am a sinner, I never once claimed otherwise. I’m fallible but God’s word is truth(infallible).(Jn. 17:17) Your trouble is not with me but God’s word. You put the pope, the cathoic church and it’s teachings above God’s word. (Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels”)

“Swampfox101, you have cited a number of passages from the Bible based on >your >fallible interpretation.”

Simple yes or no question to you? Is God’s word, the Bible, infallible? You seem to really struggle with the answer to this question.

“God walked Holy Lands building a Church. God promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church.”

Jesus walked the Holy Land preaching and teaching forgivness and salvation and establishing His Holy, Spiritual Kingdom. His kingdom, His Church was not of this world, it was Holy and Spiritual. Something that neither the Jews nor the Romans understood. Sadly many people today don’t understand it either. (John 18:36 “Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”)

Matt 4:16-18(The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned.”[a]

17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

“The Bible & history actually proves that the Roman Catholic Church is the True Church set up by Jesus Christ.”

The “ONE TRUE CHURCH” is the one established on the Day of Pentecost by Christ himself. It is His Church, the Lord’s Chruch. As for history of the Church, you don’t wanna go three because the history of the Catholic Church isn’t too stellar.

“You quote the Bible quite a bit & because you say it, you announce to all of us >your interpretation must be true.”

I quote the Bible because they are the words of God and His Son. Yes I quote them as truth because they are “TRUTH”. You never quote Bible, Do you believe it, the Bible, to be God’s word and infallible or not? I believe I have asked you this queston several times. Do you believe the Catholic Church and what it teaches is infallible? Do you believe the teachings of the Catholic are superior to the teachings of God’s word ?

“Thank you for admitting that >your interpretation may be wrong & that you are fallible.”

I’ve never said otherwise. But God’s word is always infallible and truthful, that’s why I quote it and not my onw words. How bout you who do u quote? The pope? The Catholic Churhc? Are they fallible or infallible? Just curius...! What is “TRUTH” to you? If God’s word is not TRUTH, what is?

“Swampfox101, your interpretation is only correct when it is completely compatible with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.”

NO, my interpretations is correct when it comports with scripture or God’s word. God’s word is TRUTH not the fallible pope or the fallible Catholic Church. (Mark 13:30&31 “ Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.”)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2813123/posts.
Here is a start about the Roman Catholic Church being the one true Church. The person posting as ‘salvation’ can provide all the links you need to start learning about the Catholic Church.”

I know a better place to go and find God’s ONE TRUE CHURCH it called the Bible. God’s Word. Truth. Sorry you just can’t top that with any website. Try bible.com. You’ll be much happier there once you free yourself from the teaching of man.

“Please go to the Vatican website & look up the information contained in this post:”

I have NO NEED to go to the vbaticans’s website. Why would I want to do that when I have God’s word at the tip of my fingers? I don’t need indoctrination from the Catholic Church, I have TRUTH in the scriptrues.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2875690/posts.
God gives >everyone the opportunity & the sufficient grace to get into Heaven. It’s a teaching of the Catholic Church.”

God wishes that none perish.(JN. 3:16) That why he gave us His Word, the Bible it is to lead us to obedience of our faith. (Rom. 1:5 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,”)

“You will notice that ‘boatbums’ name appears in the last ‘thread.’”
Some folks want to just argue & not try to understand a Church that has been here on Earth for >two thousands years”.

I will not argue that point with you but I will not agree that the teaching of the Catholic Church are all biblical because clearly some of them aren’t.

“The person posting this thread has >numerous teachings about the Catholic Church & the Doctrines of the Church. Anyone that is >truly interested in the Catholic Church can ask for her to post a link to information.”

The TRUE DOCTRINES of the TRUE CHURCH can only be found in God’s word.

“Also, That’s a good Moniker. All I know about the Swampfox is from the Walt Disney movies. I’ve never seen the Mel Gibson movie. However, Mel Gibson’s movie about ‘The Passion of The Christ’ has an extraordinary portrayal of the Stations of the Cross.”

Does it really matter?


43 posted on 05/18/2012 4:59:47 AM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101

Thank you for your reply.

All comments have proven that a very large number of people think they are really an ‘infallible pope’ of the scriptures.

There are literally thousands of different churches claiming God’s word is true. Each with a different interpretation of God’s true word.

Within those thousands of different churches literally >millions of people >argue about the true meaning of scripture.

The point of my question (are you infallible?) is to have you understand that you seem to be claiming to be ‘pope of the scriptures.’

To cite a passage in the Bible such as: “Jesus is Lord” is an actual Truth. However, to carry it further and claim that Jesus did not establish a Church with authority here on earth is to use a truth to create a falsehood.

Did God a build a Church on earth for people? Did God place people in charge of His Church? Did God put one person in charge of the Church to speak with infallible authority?

I say: Yes! & that person is the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.
One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church.

Jesus Christ did not walk the earth to sow confusion. Jesus Christ build one authentic Church & the Church would have a singular voice through both time & geography.

You quote numerous Biblical verses: But at the end, everything you say can be summed-up by saying, ‘you seem to think you’re pope-of-the-scriptures.’

I believe that the true understanding of the scriptures is conveyed by the Roman Catholic Church.

You say you be a Bible-based Christian. = Please read once again the events about Noah’s ark. You may notice that there was only one ark. There were not numerous little boats bobbing about in different directions.

Remember: It’s One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church.

The FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH is important to ALL Christians.

+ I recommend you go to the Vatican website and read The Catholic Catechism paragraph 766,
“The Church is born primarily of Christ’s total self-giving for our salvation, anticipated in the institution of the Eucharist and fulfilled on the Cross.
“The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus” “For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the Cross that there came forth the ‘wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.’”
As Eve was formed from the sleeping Adam’s side, so the Church was >born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the Cross.

Beautiful, absolutely.

Numerous Christians both Catholics & Protestants think the Church was ‘created’ on Pentecost Sunday. When actually, The Church was born from the Heart of Jesus Christ on the Cross.


44 posted on 05/18/2012 6:49:28 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: gghd

“Did God a build a Church on earth for people? Did God place people in charge of His Church? Did God put one person in charge of the Church to speak with infallible authority?

I say: Yes! & that person is the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.
One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church.”

Finally you speak the truth, you think the pope and his word in infallible but you REFUSE to accept the word of God as being infallible. You put your faith in a mere man, a sinner. I put my faith in God, His word, and His Son all perfectly righteous and sinless.

John 12:47-49
And if anyone hears My words and does not believe,[a] I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Peace and keep studying.


45 posted on 05/18/2012 7:22:33 AM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101

In Christianity = it’s a sin to tell a lie. + Sin may send you to Hell for ALL eternity.

The Catholic Catechism paragraph 107, ‘The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

The conclusion that only can be reached by your comments is: You think you are the ‘pope of scripture.’

Do you have a >real church you attend or are you the ‘pope of your own armchair church?’

Please the study Bible you seem to quote inappropriately. The Bible teaches liars can end up in Hell for ALL eternity.


46 posted on 05/18/2012 8:19:03 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: gghd

In Christianity = it’s a sin to tell a lie. + Sin may send you to Hell for ALL eternity.

Tell that to the pope and the catholic church. It is they that change and pervert God’s word, not me.

The Catholic Catechism paragraph 107, ‘The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit,

The Holy Spirit inspired men and they wrote as the Spirit directed. John 14:16, John 16:13.

we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

Your’re preaching to the choir.

The conclusion that only can be reached by your comments is: You think you are the ‘pope of scripture.’

NO. You just don’t think God word is infallible. You put your trust in man. You put your faith and ur trust in the pope, a sinner. You consider him infallible. I put my faith and my trust in Jesus Christ and His word. They are infallible. You quote ur pope and the catholic church. I quote Jesus Christ and His word.

Do you have a >real church you attend or are you the ‘pope of your own armchair church?’

I am a memeber of the one and only Lord’s Church. The one established on the Day of Pentecost. Jesus Christ is my pope or High Priest, he sits in heaven and rules with His Father unlike ur pope who sits in Rome and is a sinner.

Please the study Bible you seem to quote inappropriately. The Bible teaches liars can end up in Hell for ALL eternity.

I spend many, many hours each week studying God’s infallibe word. How bout you? You seem to be unable to quote from God’s word. Are you ashamed of it or just don’t know it?

Liars can be forgiven, those who refuse and ignore God’s word will be judged by those very words. (John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.”)


47 posted on 05/18/2012 10:00:23 AM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101

Swampfox101, you do NOT NOT come to this Catholic thread & have a theological discussion about the Bible or Christianity.

Swampfox101, you come here to lie & hate. You misquote people’s comments & make dishonest statements.

Swampfox101, you quote the Bible inappropriately. You are the ‘pope of your own armchair church.’

Swampfox101, let me quote the Bible for you appropriately:
Proverbs6: 16-19,
‘There are six things the Lord hates,
yes, seven are an abomination to him;
Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood;
A heart that plots wicked schemes,
feet that run swiftly to evil,
The false witness who utters lies,
and he who sows discord among brothers.

It’s not possible to have a discussion with someone who is NOT NOT truthful. Swampfox101, you come to this tread just to lie & hate.

What church do you belong to? Based on your comments, it sounds like you only have your own church; it sounds like you think you are the pope of your armchair church.


48 posted on 05/18/2012 10:19:04 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: gghd

gghd I belong to the Lord’s Church. I have told you this time after time.

You are having a hard time defending your positions because they are based on man and not God.

Every position that I have taken has been based on God’s word and I have given you scripture to back it up. You just don’t like what God word teaches.

You consider the words of a sinful man, the pope, to be infallible but consider the word of God to be fallible. I couldn’t defend that position either.

In Christ.

(2nd Timothey 2:15 “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”)


49 posted on 05/18/2012 10:39:21 AM PDT by swampfox101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: swampfox101

Swampfox101, All Christians belong to the ‘Lord’s Church’ in a mysterious way. The Roman Catholic Church is the >True Lord’s Church.

From your comments, I’m beginning to realize you are a very deceitful person. You should have been honest when you came on to this Catholic thread. You should have said outright that you consider yourself ‘the pope of the scriptures.’

Swampfox, you should have told us that you consider yourself to be ‘infallible.’

Swampfox, you quote scripture that does NOT address the infallibility of the Catholic Pope.

Swampfox, the fact that you quote scripture to justify your position (even though, it does NOT NOT actually address Infallibility) leads me to believe you consider yourself to be the pope of your own armchair church.

Be honest! Do you attend a >real church on Sunday or do you sit and pontificate from your own armchair church?


50 posted on 05/18/2012 11:27:33 AM PDT by gghd (A Pro-life Palinista & a member of the NRA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-181 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson