Infallibility

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[Cronos]

Do read the article before making such bounding errors. Your post is utterly false in this part You folks adore and treat the pope, a sinful man, as if he is God himself. You laugh at, mock and despise God’s word but the the words of the pope you treat as infallible. -- The Pope is a sinful man, and if you did read the aticle you'd see that the word of the Pope are not all infallible. The Pope is a fallible, sinful man just as is you or me, yet God has prevented the many sinful men who have followed Peter's position as leader, from leading the flock astray. That is why now the Church is the bastion of Christianity, just as it was when there were persecutions by the Romans, just as when in 450 it seemed that Christianity would end under barbarian and Arian Germanic invaders. Just as in the 700s it seemed that Christianity would end under the Moslem invaders and the same in the 1600s. Just as it seemed in the 1920s that Christianity would end under the Bolsheviks

Each time, The Church has survived and mostly inspite of itself, because God protects and God inaugurated the Church, his bride Eph 5: 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior

As Christ said in MAtt 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. and as +Paul reminds us Rom 12:5 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. handed down one from the other 2 tim 2:2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.

For us God's Word, i.e. Jesus Christ is the One High Priest who we follow that is why we believe in what He taught -- and He taught that we must repent, believe, eat of His body and endure to the end.

[Cronos]

You just don’t think God word is infallible.

God's Word i.e. Jesus Christ is infallible, the written word that is scripture is inerrant. the Pope as a person is Fallible, but only on occasion (twice in the past 200 years) has God's spirit directed or even controlled the person sitting in Peter's chair to state something that the Spirit deems infallible.

[swampfox101]

“Jesus Christ is infallible, the written word that is scripture is inerrant.”

Same difference.

‘the Pope as a person is Fallible,’

Indeed, we are all sinnners. (Rom. 3:23)

“, but only on occasion (twice in the past 200 years) has God’s spirit directed or even controlled the person sitting in Peter’s chair to state something that the Spirit deems infallible.”

Hebrews 1:1 (”God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;”)

1 Cor. 13:8-13 (”Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”)

As you see from these verses, I don’t agree with your premise.

[Cronos]

Cronos: “Jesus Christ is infallible, the written word that is scripture is inerrant.”

Swamp: Same difference.

Wrong. Jesus is not a colleciton of books. We Christians worship Jesus, the true Word of God, we Christians don't worship a collection of books.

Scripture is inerrant as in it does not contain error, it is not "infallible" no more than it (or any other inanimate object) is fallible. Fallibility is of an animate object, in the ability to arrive at decisions.

The Bible is inerrant.

[Cronos]

of course, all men are fallible, that is why sola scripture leads to Jehovah's witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons, gay justification (like Obama).

Jesus gave us a community, the Church to prevent this, that is why the Church remains true, 2000 years later, due to the work of Christ and the grace of the Holy Spirit and all the various errors have died out (the latest being the bunch of gay-led implosions we see)

[Cronos]

of course, all men are fallible, that is why sola scripture leads to Jehovah's witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons, gay justification (like Obama).

Jesus gave us a community, the Church to prevent this, that is why the Church remains true, 2000 years later, due to the work of Christ and the grace of the Holy Spirit and all the various errors have died out (the latest being the bunch of gay-led implosions we see)

Now those armchair errors also lead to people quoting scripture out of context and out of place -- as Obama did and as your post does

Christ gave us the Church, the community, through which the collection of books called the Bible, under the grace of God was collected.

the Love of God is what has guided the Church through the centuries. The Love of God, and His grace is what provides the infallibility on occasion (twice in the past 200 years) has God’s spirit directed or even controlled the person sitting in Peter’s chair to state something that the Spirit deems infallible.

If you read the Bible, you should also believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, just as Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, Orientals and Assyrians believe, indeed the overwhelming majority of Christians for 2000 years and today. do you trust Christ? do you believe His words? Then do you believe in the True presence in the Eucharist? If one does not, then one does not believe in Christ's words...

[swampfox101]

“Your post is utterly false in this part You folks adore and treat the pope, a sinful man, as if he is God himself. You laugh at, mock and despise God’s word but the the words of the pope you treat as infallible. — “

I was somewhat harsh. What I should have said is that the Catholic Church is somewhat lackadaisical is its treatment of the scriptures. Here are a few examples:

“The very nature of the Bible ought to prove to any thinking man the impossibility of its being the one safe method to find out what the Saviour taught.
[Question Box, 1913 edition, page 67]”

“the text of the Bible is not clear and conclusive on many points of doctrine on which it does treat, is efficiently proved by the very discordances of those who attempt to deduce doctrine from it without any other aid.
[George M. Searle, Plain Facts, Paulist Press, New York, page 23] “

“Again, it has ever been practically impossible for men, generally to find out Christ from the Bible only.
[Question Box, 1913 edition, page 70]”

“Second, ... a competent religious guide must be clear and intelligible to all, so that everyone may fully understand the true meaning of the instructions it contains. Is the Bible a book intelligible to all? Far from it; it is full of obscurities and difficulties not only for the illiterate, but even for the learned”.
[The Faith of Our Fathers, James Cardinal Gibbons, 1917, page 70]

“In other spiritual books the truths of the Bible are presented more fully, and in a more modern and familiar style, so that we can hardly wonder that they are, as a rule preferred; and that though Catholic families generally have a Bible, it is more venerated than read.
[George M. Searle, Plain Facts, Paulist Press, New York, page 154]”

“Akin to these divine laws is the purely ecclesiastical law or law of the Church. Christ sent forth His Church clothed with His own and His Father’s authority ... To enable her to carry out this divine plan she makes laws, laws purely ecclesiastical, but laws that have the same binding force as the divine laws themselves ... For Catholics, therefore, as far as obligations are concerned there is no practical difference between God’s law and the law of the Church.”
[John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Benziger Brothers, New York, Cincinnati, Chicago, 1904, page 26]

[Cronos]

[Question Box, 1913 edition, page 67]”

Question box -- that's not a source of the Church's position. No more than me posting an opinion from someone in the 1910s who was not a Catholic and asking you why you believe in that..

and "George M. Searle"< and James were posting their opinions, just as you are. That is why sola scriptura and individual interpretation is open to errors

[Cronos]

Let's show you how silly you posting the opinions of someone and stating that as lackadaisical of Christ's entire Church is a silly statement

Supposed if one said "What I should have said is that those outside the Catholic Church is somewhat lackadaisical is its treatment of the scriptures" like Obama quotes the golden rule to justify gay marriages

So why do non-Catholics play fast and loose with scripture to justify this, to justify their beliefs that Jesus Christ is Not God (Jehovah's Witnesses or Unitarians) or one of many gods (Mormons) or denying the Trinity (Oneness Pentecostals) or saying "God has no power over life or death, you have it" (Pentecostal preacher Jesse Duplantis) or saying "Abortion is a blessing" (anglican pastoress) etc. etc.

[Cronos]

I was somewhat harsh No, actually your post was false, a repetition of a lie at worst, utterly inane at best.

Do read the article before making such bounding errors

if you had read the article you'd see that your statements in that post and subsequent are utterly devoid of facts.

[gghd]

Thank you for your reply. Are you another person coming on to a Catholic thread to insult people & lie? What evil is in your heart that you are >driven to generate more discord?

What church do you go to? I consider it a very appropriate question >just by looking at the >name you have chosen as your Moniker?

I do believe, Cronos, that you be the one using >Catholic language inappropriately. I recommend you read the article.

+My advice is you throw yourself on the Mercy of God & ask Jesus Christ to transform you & give you >Humility (Included in Piety) which is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Cronos you sound like a person that is consumed with sin & needs redemption through Jesus Christ. Cronos it’s time to get on your knees & acknowledge Jesus Christ is Lord & the real King. It’s time to give up your hateful-life.

[MarMema]

Do you think idolatry counts when it is the Bible? Just curious....

[swampfox101]

I will not concede your point. The Catholic Church does think that God’s word isn’t sufficient for salvation and they DO put just as much creedence and faith in the writigs of mere sinful man.

The Catholic Church is just a guilty as the first century Jews in trying to write their own laws. The Jewish leaders felt themselves to be above the law of God and the Catholic Church does the exact same thing. Hence they try to add to and take away from God’s written Word.

[swampfox101]

“Let’s show you how silly you posting the opinions of someone and stating that as lackadaisical of Christ’s entire Church is a silly statement”

No, what’s silly is the the pope calling himself the vicar of Christ. You wanna talk silly, look at the Catholic Church and its teachings.

“So why do non-Catholics play fast and loose with scripture to justify this, to justify their beliefs that Jesus Christ is Not God “

Should we discard the word of God because men abuse it?

The world is full of sinful people and they try to use the scriptures to justify many things. Thats why God instructs us to study (2 Tim 2:15) All Christians were warned that many wolves in sheep’s clothig would enter the Church and lead astray.(Matt. 7:15&16) Not only that but Jesus told us that many of them would be part of the folk. (Matt 7:21)

Knowing that man are sinful, why would the Catholic Church put their faith in mere men like the pope? Why would you want to exchange, supplement, add to, or take away from the perfect word of God?

[Natural Law]

"The Catholic Church does think that God’s word isn’t sufficient for salvation and they DO put just as much creedence and faith in the writigs of mere sinful man."

That is a gross mischaracterization that had its origin in the propaganda of the Reformation. The Catholic Church affirms that Scripture contains all that is necessary for Salvation. Going ever further, the Church teaches that Salvation van be found in the Gospels or even a few of the words of Jesus.

The original Protestant premise that Scripture Alone is all that is necessary for Salvation has morphed into a doctrine that claims that Scripture Alone shall be the exclusive source of Salvation. The Traditions of the Church, derived from the oral teachings of Jesus, the Apostles, and the Early Church Fathers were considered counter-scriptural.

"There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." - John 21:25

[swampfox101]

“That is why sola scriptura and individual interpretation is open to errors”

And sola papa can’t make a mistake huh? Yeah..., right.

You keep your sinful pope and I’ll keep may sinless savior and his “Perfect Gospel” and His loving Father.

You can choose to serve your pope if you want but I and my household,just like Joshua, choose to serve God.

Joshua 24:14-16
14 “Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

[swampfox101]

“That is a gross mischaracterization that had its origin in the propaganda of the Reformation”

The Catholic Church had to be reformed it was corrupt and it is still an apostate church.

‘”The Catholic Church affirms that Scripture contains all that is necessary for Salvation. Going ever further, the Church teaches that Salvation van be found in the Gospels or even a few of the words of Jesus.”

If you believe that, then why add to God’s word? Get rid of all of the nonsense in the Catholic church and return to God’s word.

“The Traditions of the Church, derived from the oral teachings of Jesus, the Apostles, and the Early Church Fathers were considered counter-scriptural.”

The oral traditions of the Church is the GOSPEL thats what the apostles taught. That’s exactly what John is talking about in John 21:25.

You and I are to teach Jesus, the very same Jesus that the apostles taught. We aren’t supposed to teach the ideas, commandments, and theories and traditions of men. Matt. 15:8-108 “These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.”

2 Thess 2:14-16 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle

As you can see from scripture, the oral traditions and the epistles were the same.

[swampfox101]

‘of course, all men are fallible, that is why sola scripture leads to Jehovah’s witnesses, Unitarians, Mormons, gay justification (like Obama).’

Are you saying God’s word corrupts?

“Now those armchair errors also lead to people quoting scripture out of context and out of place — as Obama did and as your post does”

What makes you more capable than others at quoting scripture or the Cathoic church for that matter? You just have a problem with God’s word. You don’t like what it says and don’t agree with it so therefore you try to discredit scripture. That’s a very dangerous thing my friend.

“If you read the Bible, you should also believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, just as Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, Orientals and Assyrians believe, indeed the overwhelming majority of Christians for 2000 years and today. do you trust Christ? do you believe His words? Then do you believe in the True presence in the Eucharist? If one does not, then one does not believe in Christ’s words...”

Says who? The pope? Where is eucharist mentioned in God’s word? I believe in the Lord’s supper if that’s what you mean.

I believe the bread represents the body and the wine represents the blood. Matt. 14: 22-23 22 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, “Take, eat;[a] this is My body.”
23 Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it.

[Cronos]

No, you are saying that God's word corrupts

I am saying that God's Word is Jesus Christ. It is man's fallacy in believing in sola scriptura that corrupts the written word so that you have Obama using scripture to justify gay marriage, so that you have unitarians, mormons, jehovah's witnesses etc., so that you have your own interpretation

[Cronos]

What makes you more capable than others at quoting scripture or the Cathoic church for that matter?

Oh, I am very fallible as an individual -- as are you. The difference is that I believe God did not leave it up to individuals like you and me to fallibly interpret the written word, but to the community that is the Church

Now, God's community to which I belong, aka the Apostolic Church, we learn and pray God's word as a community

do you?