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The hidden exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants
NCR ^ | Apr. 18, 2011 | Thomas Reese

Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock

Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....

The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.

We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.

While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.

The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.

Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.

Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.

Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.

Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.

One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.

Spiritual needs

The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.

In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.

Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.

The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.

People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.

Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.

Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.

Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.

Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.

Becoming Protestant

If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.

Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.

Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.

Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).

What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.

Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.

Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.

Lessons from the data

There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.

First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.

While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.

Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.

The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.

Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.

Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.

The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: agendadrivenfreeper; bleedingmembers; catholic
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To: Natural Law; metmom
the Real Presence of Christ is present in the Eucharist

It smacks of deception.

1,251 posted on 06/04/2012 10:05:14 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

I have always been curious why they withheld the cup from parishioners and why only the priests could partake. Anyone know?

I took communion once in RC church back in the 70’s where the parish only received the bread. I will have to ask my DH’s experience growing up in the RC church and parochial school.


1,252 posted on 06/04/2012 10:07:56 PM PDT by bonfire
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To: presently no screen name
You will not provoke me to anger to hate. What ever your transgressions or trespasses I will forgive you and love you for your weaknesses.

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.  Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you".

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.  And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you. Even sinners do that.  And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.  But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.  Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

Luke 6:27-36

1,253 posted on 06/04/2012 10:20:23 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law
You will not provoke me to anger to hate

Why should I? Something has to be within you that provokes you.

love you for your weaknesses.

Satan might think I'm weak but I am STRONG 'in Christ'. It's all about JESUS, not me.

It is ALL about JESUS and what HE already DID as IT IS FINISHED

God's WORD Reigns as IT is the FINAL Authority. Thank YOU, JESUS!

1,254 posted on 06/04/2012 10:39:21 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: bonfire

Actually I didn’t know any better being born into Catholicism. I went to catholic grammar and HS and mass every day before school - the church being attached to the school so it was a requirement. We only knew what we were taught and all my relatives and friends were catholic. So there was no one around with Truth to bring it up. But why the priest were only allowed I don’t have a clue.


1,255 posted on 06/04/2012 11:01:16 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: stpio
The Mass is prefigured from the Old Testament, The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the “continual sacrifice” spoken of in the Book of Daniel. It is the “clean oblation” the Eucharistic Sacrifice prophesied in Malachi 1:11. In the New Covenant, Judaism and Protestantism have no “continual sacrifice”, no priesthood, seee...only found in the true faith.

The ONLY sacrifice that we Christians offer to Almighty God is our sacrifice of PRAISE and we don't need a priest to do that:

Hebrews 13:15
Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise — the fruit of lips that openly profess his name.

The BLOODY sacrifice of Christ FOR our sins is DONE. There is NO MORE A NEED for a blood sacrifice. When you believed in Christ and received Him as your savior, your sins were blotted out and God says he will remember them NO MORE. He does not judge us according to our sins ANYMORE. We stand holy and blameless before Him because of Christ. We praise him because of what HIS grace did for us. The sacrifice of praise is what God wants from us - NOT a replay of Christ's sacrifice. Believing on Him is receiving him is eating and drinking him is being born again is being saved for eternity. THIS is the TRUE faith!

1,256 posted on 06/04/2012 11:29:15 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums; All

“The sacrifice of praise is what God wants from us - NOT a replay of Christ’s sacrifice. Believing on Him is receiving him is eating and drinking him is being born again is being saved for eternity. THIS is the TRUE faith!”

~ ~ ~

Trying to find the simplest explanation of the Holy Mass.
If someone else has one, please share. When former Protestant minister Scott Hahn attended his first Mass, He was astounded, Scott said...this is the Book of Revelation.

from: http://www.catholicthinker.net

+ + + + +

Protestants have many arguments against the Eucharist and the Mass. They understand, correctly, that these things are the very heart of Catholicism (“Destroy the Mass, destroy the Church” – Luther). To touch upon perhaps the greatest error (or most twisted teaching): Christ IS NOT “re-crucified” at the Mass (a ridiculous and purposefully ignorant teaching): rather, Christ’s single, timeless Sacrifice on Calvary is “made present” and presented to the Father. (Such a concept was readily to familiar to the early Christians, most of them Jews who considered their Passover sacrifice to be the “re-living” of the Exodus, not just its remembrance.) God, of course, lies outside the bounds of time; all time is stretched out before Him to see. Because HUMANS OFFEND HIM CONTINUOUSLY, AND IN THE PRESENT, it is fitting that His just anger be appeased continually by Christ’s propitiatory Sacrifice.

And this is exactly what we see in Hebrews and REVELATION, understood by the first Christians as describing the Heavenly liturgy: the Lamb of God is presented continually to the Father, a propitiatory and eternal Sacrifice....


1,257 posted on 06/04/2012 11:52:17 PM PDT by stpio (ue)
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To: metmom

Don’t you get it?

Only the Catholic church can properly confect God and then turn Him back into Him again.

~ ~ ~

It’s comments like this...the reason why not many replies.


1,258 posted on 06/04/2012 11:57:43 PM PDT by stpio (ue)
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To: count-your-change

“He overlooks what is described. Jesus broke the bread before ottering it to the disciples, saying “This”.
“This” was not the unbroken loaf (masculine) but a piece or a fragment of the loaf (neuter).
Hence a fragment or piece of a loaf was literally “a break”.

~ ~ ~

What are you saying brother, translation? I am serious.

The fact, most Christians believe in the Real Presence
and everyone in Heaven does...this fact, doesn’t it inspire
a change in non-Catholic Christians, maybe...


1,259 posted on 06/05/2012 12:04:52 AM PDT by stpio (ue)
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To: stpio

How so? Isn’t this what the RC’s have been insisting on?


1,260 posted on 06/05/2012 12:10:21 AM PDT by bonfire
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To: bonfire

“How so? Isn’t this what the RC’s have been insisting on?”

~ ~ ~
Hi bonfire,

Many, many Protestant ministers will concede the Bible is
a Catholic book. Non-Catholics here won’t say it. Post
1224 was ignored, not a word said. Reject Prophecy, that’s
not wise. I’ll post it again. God’s plan, His desire
that we all believe the same, yes?

_ _ _

An excerpt, a translation, this is God’s plan, He is going
to show every person, all of humanity, just remember if you say no now. I put in CAPS two sentences.

Message to Darly Chagas

It is Coming the Hour, Correct Yourselves

Easter Sunday

April 8, 2012

Mary, Full of Grace:

...Pray, pray, pray for the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, for all the Clergy, for the religious men and women, for all mankind. Pray for the atheists and pagans, they think that God will give up from them, but He will not, for God nothing is impossible, He calls all until the last minute and gives opportunities, only will lose it those who do not want the Salvation of their souls, those who love more the sin than God. Pray for the Holy Church founded by Jesus Christ, ONLY WHO WANTS TO BE PART OF THIS CHURCH WILL SURVIVE FOREVER. For He, Jesus Christ and His Church is the Church founded on earth that is represented by the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI so far. Does not advance for the world to want to undo this determination, ALL THE CHURCHES THAT ARE NOT SUBORDINATE TO THE HOLY FATHER THE POPE, WILL FALL. But, does not advance anybody thinking that this will not happen. Who rules the world is only God and He bears witness to what He talks. Will survive the Foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ. He will gather His followers. Help the Holy Father at this time of great change in the world...

http://www.afterthewarning.com/WebPages/BeforeTheWarning/MessagesFromHeaven/DarlyChagas.aspx#06-04-12


1,261 posted on 06/05/2012 12:20:13 AM PDT by stpio (ue)
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To: papertyger

The feeling is basically mutual, negative and positive, but with no real positive for Rome being the supreme authority Scripture is. God be blessed.


1,262 posted on 06/05/2012 12:35:52 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: stpio
“Where do you get the authority to say, sometimes Jesus is speaking literally in John 6 when He
says “flesh” and other times the word “flesh” is only
a symbol, a metaphor.”

It's called ‘handling the word aright (rightly dividing)’ to the end that we have what Paul called “epignosis”.

1,263 posted on 06/05/2012 12:50:59 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: stpio
“The fact, most Christians believe in the Real Presence
and everyone in Heaven does...this fact, doesn’t it inspire
a change in non-Catholic Christians, maybe...”

I can't match an ability to speak for most Christians and everyone in heaven so I'll go back to Salza, the “seer”s attempt to find in the Greek grammar ‘a new substance’.

“What are you saying brother, translation? I am serious.”

Thank you for reminding me. If you wish to know what I'm saying, reread the post.

1,264 posted on 06/05/2012 1:06:56 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

“Where do you get the authority to say, sometimes Jesus is speaking literally in John 6 when He
says “flesh” and other times the word “flesh” is only
a symbol, a metaphor.”

It’s called ‘handling the word aright (rightly dividing)’ to the end that we have what Paul called “epignosis”

~ ~ ~

“E pig nosis”, excuse me?

Everything you...*know*...of Christ came from the Church.


1,265 posted on 06/05/2012 1:21:51 AM PDT by stpio (ue)
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To: count-your-change

“I can’t match an ability to speak for most Christians and everyone in heaven”...

~ ~ ~

Too bad CYC, most Christians are Roman Catholic.

No matter their belief here, Christian or non-Christian, absolutely, everyone in Heaven is Roman Catholic.

Juice and and cracker or receive Christ Himself, I know what I would choose.

Talk to me after the Great Warning, I’ll help you.


1,266 posted on 06/05/2012 1:27:04 AM PDT by stpio (ue)
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To: bonfire

There is precious little on the internet about the Catholic church’s decision to withhold the cup, and a lot more of them patting themselves on the back for allowing it now.

Seems like they aren’t particularly anxious for anyone to know.


1,267 posted on 06/05/2012 1:39:27 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: stpio; bonfire; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Many, many Protestant ministers will concede the Bible is a Catholic book.

Since when? Which ones? Sources and stats? Otherwise, I don't believe you, because it's certainly nothing I've ever heard anyone admit to in all my years in non-Catholic circles. It's more like wishful thinking on the part of Catholics than fact.

Post 1224 was ignored, not a word said. Reject Prophecy, that’s not wise. I’ll post it again. God’s plan, His desire that we all believe the same, yes?

It was ignored because it was easily recognized as the tripe that it is. I certainly don't see a lot of other Catholics rushing to its defense either. For that matter, I don't recall seeing one Catholic post anything in support of your so-called prophecies. They've been ignoring them as the embarrassment that they are.

1,268 posted on 06/05/2012 1:49:57 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: stpio; Gamecock

Another one gc. And more at the post.

“No matter their belief here, Christian or non-Christian, absolutely, everyone in Heaven is Roman Catholic.”


1,269 posted on 06/05/2012 1:52:21 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: stpio; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...
No matter their belief here, Christian or non-Christian, absolutely, everyone in Heaven is Roman Catholic.

Thanks, stpio.

I needed the laugh tonight.

1,270 posted on 06/05/2012 1:54:01 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name
So watch who you say who is rejecting TRUTH as there is ONLY ONE TRUTH/JESUS THE WORD. JESUS IS THE SAVIOR!! HE is the bread of life, The WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIFE. HE is the cornerstone of HIS CHURCH, only those who hear and obey HIS WORD ALONE He calls HIS OWN. That's faithful!!

Wow, emo-kid!

1,271 posted on 06/05/2012 2:23:43 AM PDT by Hacksaw (If I had a son, he'd look like George Zimmerman.)
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To: stpio

“E pig nosis”, excuse me?”

No, I can’t see any excuse for such comments, perhaps it would be best if you tried serious.


1,272 posted on 06/05/2012 4:22:24 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: metmom; boatbums; count-your-change
Postmortem conversions! If the Mormons do not get them with their baptismal conversion perversion.

Some other RCs believe we must convert to Rome before death to be saved, among other attempts to reconcile modern teaching of post secular force empowered Rome with historical papal statements that restricts salvation to formal members of Rome.

1,273 posted on 06/05/2012 7:57:55 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: metmom; stpio
No matter their belief here, Christian or non-Christian, absolutely, everyone in Heaven is Roman Catholic.

So there you have it, another RC who believes that everyone, Christian and non-Christian, will be in Heaven.

1,274 posted on 06/05/2012 8:14:47 AM PDT by Gamecock
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To: Gamecock; metmom

Actually, i think he disagrees with the Cardinal below*, in believing that somehow any who make it to Heaven will do so because they had a postmortem conversion, but without having to make their first communion, etc., perhaps in purgatory (but which presumes non-Christians were effectively Christian before they died), and which Ratzinger says may be involve “existential” rather than “temporal” duration (cf. Ratzinger’s book, Eschatology). It may be someone one experiences, but experiences in a moment.

*Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor, the head of the Roman Catholic in England and Wales recently expressed his hope and belief that God will save all people in an interview he gave for the Catholic Herald.

In an interview with The Catholic Herald this week, the Cardinal reveals his optimism for mankind as he sets out his vision of both heaven and hell.

Hell, he implies, may even be empty – conforming with Our Lord’s wish to save all souls. And heaven is a place where believers and non- believers may meet.

Q: And hell?

A: We’re not bound to believe that anybody’s there, let’s face it. But certainly in the Scriptures there’s a stark confrontation between heaven and hell.

But when Jesus talks about hell, it’s also exhorting people to repent, to turn away. It is in the context not of “you will be damned”, but “repent and turn to God”. I believe that hell exists and it is really the absence of God...

I cannot think of heaven without thinking of being in communion with all the saints and with all the people I’ve loved on this earth.

Q: It is sometimes said that there will be a separate heaven for Bavarians because they would not be in a state of eternal happiness if they had to share heaven with the Prussians. Will Catholics and Protestants be together in heaven?

A: I hope they won’t be separate. I think that the divisions manifest here on earth will be reconciled in some mysterious way in heaven. I’m not thinking just of Catholics and Protestants, but people of other faiths and people of no faith. We are all children of God.

Q: So we shouldn’t be surprised if we were to meet in heaven someone who was a Muslim or an atheist on earth?

A: I hope I will be surprised in heaven... I think I will be. www.romancatholicism.org/cormac-apokatastasis.htm


1,275 posted on 06/05/2012 9:56:40 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: stpio
Pray for the Holy Church founded by Jesus Christ, ONLY WHO WANTS TO BE PART OF THIS CHURCH WILL SURVIVE FOREVER. For He, Jesus Christ and His Church is the Church founded on earth that is represented by the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI so far. Does not advance for the world to want to undo this determination, ALL THE CHURCHES THAT ARE NOT SUBORDINATE TO THE HOLY FATHER THE POPE, WILL FALL.
So is this supposed "seer" saying only those formal members of the RC church will be saved, see heaven, "SURVIVE FOREVER"?

Isnt that against formal Roman teaching where all religions have a chance at heaven?

1,276 posted on 06/05/2012 10:06:58 AM PDT by bkaycee
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To: stpio
Pray for the Holy Church founded by Jesus Christ, ONLY WHO WANTS TO BE PART OF THIS CHURCH WILL SURVIVE FOREVER. For He, Jesus Christ and His Church is the Church founded on earth that is represented by the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI so far. Does not advance for the world to want to undo this determination, ALL THE CHURCHES THAT ARE NOT SUBORDINATE TO THE HOLY FATHER THE POPE, WILL FALL.
So is this supposed "seer" saying only those formal members of the RC church will be saved, see heaven, "SURVIVE FOREVER"?

Isnt that against formal Roman teaching where all religions have a chance at heaven?

1,277 posted on 06/05/2012 10:07:13 AM PDT by bkaycee
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To: metmom
"There is precious little on the internet about the Catholic church’s decision to withhold the cup..."

Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place. You should be looking in the Bible.

"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." - John 6:51

The Church teaches that Christ is contained whole and entire under each species; so that whoever communicates under the form of bread or of wine receives not a mutilated Sacrament or a divided Savior, but shares in the whole Sacrament as fully as if he participated in both forms.

From this passage it is evident that whoever partakes of the form of bread partakes of the living flesh of Jesus Christ, which is inseparable from His blood, and which, being now in a glorious state, cannot be divided;

"For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. – Romans 6:9

With the exception of the last supper and His agony in the garden, Jesus makes no reference to the sacramental cup, but only to the Eucharistic bread, to which He ascribes all the efficacy which is attached to communion under both kinds, these being union with Him, spiritual life, eternal salvation.

Similarly, St. Paul, in his letters to the Corinthians, said:

"Whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord." – 1 Corinthians 11:27

Peace be with you

1,278 posted on 06/05/2012 10:44:07 AM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: daniel1212
*Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor, the head of the Roman Catholic in England and Wales recently expressed his hope and belief that God will save all people in an interview he gave for the Catholic Herald.

In an interview with The Catholic Herald this week, the Cardinal reveals his optimism for mankind as he sets out his vision of both heaven and hell.

Hell, he implies, may even be empty – conforming with Our Lord’s wish to save all souls. And heaven is a place where believers and non- believers may meet.

And what denomination ordained this guy and promoted him to level of bishop again?

I think this is another batch for YOUR list of what Catholics are free to believe or disagree with.

So much for unity of faith and fidelity to church doctrine.

1,279 posted on 06/05/2012 10:59:17 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Natural Law

Which proves nothing because those verses don’t give any justification for changing the way communion is celebrated.

Jesus gave the disciples BOTH the bread and cup.

The bread is for the remembrance of His broken body. The cup for His shed blood.

It’s very interesting that the Catholic church removed the part that remembers the blood sacrifice because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.


1,280 posted on 06/05/2012 11:04:14 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
"Jesus gave the disciples BOTH the bread and cup.

Do you partake of both the blood and body of Christ or just some infrequent symbolic gesture? Do you wash anyone's feet as was commanded at the last supper?

We have no more right to infer that all are obliged to drink of the cup because the Apostles were commanded to drink of it, than we have to suppose that the laity are required or allowed to confect the bread and wine because the power of doing so was at the last Supper conferred on the Apostles or required and allowed to bind and loose sins because that too was given to the Apostles?

The charge of withholding the cup by some Protestants is completely disingenuous because in their own practice and in their own doctrines have destroyed the intrinsic virtue of the Sacrament by giving to their followers nothing but symbolic bread and wine. The difference between them and Catholics is that under either form we give the entire substance, the Real Presence, while under two forms Protestants give only the shadow.

Again, not only are you at odds with Catholicism, but with nearly all of Christendom too. Protestant theologian Gottfried Leibnitz wrote his Systema theologicum; "It cannot be denied that Christ is received entire by virtue of concomitance, under each species; nor is His flesh separated from His blood." [Systema Theol., p. 250.] Martin Luther himself was so clearly convinced of the completeness of the Real Presence in both species that he was an uncompromising advocate of communion under only one kind. Luther wrote: "If any Council, should decree or permit both species, we would by no means acquiesce; but, in spite of the Council and its statute, we would use one form, or neither, and never both." [De formula Missae.]

Now I ask that you drop this inane line of argument because the longer it goes the more foolish and vindictive you appear. Remember, this is not about who is right, it is about what is right.

Peace be with you.

1,281 posted on 06/05/2012 11:33:50 AM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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Comment #1,282 Removed by Moderator

To: Natural Law
Do you partake of both the blood and body of Christ or just some infrequent symbolic gesture?

I take communion. It is what it is.

Do you wash anyone's feet as was commanded at the last supper?

The Catholic church doesn't do that as part of the communion service either. Talk about inane.

The rest of the argument to justify the Church's disobedience to the clear instructions of Christ is nothing but rationalization and justification, which goes to show that it can excuse anything and that there is nothing, no matter how outlandish or outrageous or disobedient, that some Catholics will not condemn as long as the church hierarchy decides it.

1,283 posted on 06/05/2012 1:12:21 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; Quix; smvoice
Typical responses

"He is only a CINO."

This does not have the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat (considering what does, this is seen as irrelevant by some traditionalists)

"He is only speaking as a private theologian, and (according to the interpretation of another private theologian) is contradicting extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the church there is no salvation"...") or Vatican Two's interpretation of it.

Which means different official things (even as to it being infallible) to different Roman Catholics. And as every papal or conciliar definition or condemnation leaves a certain margin for interpretation, private judgment has to complete what public pronouncements left unstated.

Once a thesis or treatise is censured "theologians employ themselves in determining what precisely it is that is condemned in that thesis or treatise; and doubtless in most cases they do so with success, but that demonstration is not de fide." (Avery Cardinal Dulles, SJ, “Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith,” Professor at Fordham University and Professor Emeritus at The Catholic University of America, [Sapientia Press: Naples, FL, 2007], 42-43); (http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/01/official-interpretation-of-private.html)

And presuming one has correctly judged a teaching to be non-infallible, Donum Veritatis allows that even if "not habitually mistaken in its prudential judgments," "some Magisterial documents might not be free from all deficiencies," and humbly withholding assent is allowed for a theologian "who might have serious difficulties, for reasons which appear to him wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching."

Due to deficiencies or comprehensiveness of the Roman Catholic magisterium, much of the practical work of apologetics is left to lay apologists, though in times past such were disallowed from such debates as occur here, but wherein we often find a testimony to liberalism or variance which they themselves attack evangelicals for:

Robert Sungenis recently stated Rome's scholars are worse than Protestant liberals. Jimmy Akin recently chastised the interpretation of his priest saying, "This isn't exegetical rocket science." Steve Ray had some similar problems with a priest and concludes the church is "Always reforming, always in need of reform." Mark Shea accuses Robert Sungenis of lying. Sungenis says Scott Hahn misunderstands of the whole issue of justification. Over on the Catholic Answers forum, they recently had a heated discussion as to whether Scott Hahn teaches "prima scriptura." Tim Staples says he went to a mass in which the priest led the church in "the wave." Jimmy Akin says you can pray to whoever you want to, even if they aren't saints. Art Sippo says Mary should be Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all Graces. Patrick Madrid disagreed with him. Karl Keating states, "Many Catholics are confused because some priests tell them contracepting is immoral, while others tell them the practice is morally neutral; some priests speak as though Mary had only one child, while others imply that she was the mother of the 'brethren of the Lord', some priests correctly explain the meaning of the Real Presence, while others refer to the Eucharist as only a symbol. Priests are authority figures, and lay people expect them to know and teach the faith accurately- not a safe assumption nowadays." Jim Burnham stated on Catholic Answers that Seventy percent of Roman Catholics do not understand the Eucharist.
I could go on and on. I didn't even mention any of my "We Have Apostolic Tradition"- The Unofficial Catholic Apologist Commentary " posts. In those posts, you can see that Catholic apologists disagree with each other when they interpret the Bible. Then there are the big issues, like evolution. If you want to see diversity of opinion, simply try and nail down a Catholic apologist or a Catholic theologian on it. You would think Catholic theologians could at least be unified on Luther and the Reformation. Some say Luther was sent by Satan, others think he wasn't such a bad guy.
Shall we conclude that an infallible interpreter + infallible tradition + infallible scripture = harmony? The facts speak for themselves. I've got to believe by this point that Mr. Madrid is aware that this is a false argument. The misuse of a sufficient source does not negate the clarity of that sufficient source.
(http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/09/reminding-patrick-madrid-of-romes.html)

Then you have the Catholic schisms resulting from the Roman Catholic attempts to accommodate her loss of secular power and souls in the modern world of greater ideological freedom.

Vatican Two was described by Cardinal Suenens as "the French Revolution in the Church" and Y. Congar likened it to the October (1917) Revolution in Russia.[5]...

As to the documents themselves, there are sixteen of these, and all sixteen are consider to be "established synodally" - that is to say, agreed upon by the majority of the Fathers present at the council. These sixteen documents are entitled "Constitutions", "Decrees", and "Declarations", distinctions which in the practical order are meaningless. Despite the "pastoral" nature of the Council, two of these are labeled "dogmatic". In total then number some 739 pages of fine print and reading through them requires, as Father Houghton has remarked, "a sufficient supply of anti-soporifics". (Vatican I runs to 42 pages of large print, and the Council of Trent to 179 pages).[17] Their tone is "prolix in the extreme" and as Michael Davies states, "much of their content consists of little more than long series of the most banal truisms imaginable."[18]...

Yet the council is important, for it introduced into the bosom of the church a whole host of "new directions" that are bearing fruit in our days...

Conservative Novus Ordo Catholics who object to the drastic changes call them "abuses" that result from the "misinterpretation" of Conciliar teachings. They point to many fine and orthodox statements in support of their contention. Those on the other hand who are on the forefront of the Revolution - the Liberal post-Conciliar Catholic - can justify almost anything they wish by recourse to the same documents. The much debated issue as to whether the Council is only an "excuse" or in fact the "source" of the "autodemolition" of the Church is entirely beside the point. Whatever the case may be, as the Abbe of Nantes has pointed out, "there is not a heresiarch today, not a single apostate who does not now appeal to the Council in carrying out his action in broad daylight with full impunity as recognized pastor and master" (CRC May 1980)....

"The definitive texts are for the most part compromise texts. On far too many occasions they juxtapose opposing viewpoints without establishing any genuine internal link between them. Thus every affirmation of the power of bishops is accompanied in a manner which is almost tedious by the insistence upon the authority of the Pope...

It is then the ambiguity of the Conciliar statements which allows for any interpretation one wishes. (http://www.the-pope.com/wvat2tec.html)

Congar and the theologian “prison inmates” like him became the “guards” at Vatican II. Overnight we had theologians who’s ideas had been formally condemned by the Church, being the overseers of the new schemas of the Council. Many probably do not know that almost all of the schemas for the Council were completed, or at least had been outlined before the Council ever started. Those schemas, which were written in the same vain as those of the prior popes, were all completely trashed in favor letting these new theologians rewrite them all. In the end you had a smorgasbord character to all most of the VII documents because these modernists would write up the document and then the orthodox bishops would fight to keep in some of the old theological wording as well. That is one of the reasons for the “this and that” leitmotif of the documents. http://catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2012/04/why-sspx-and-archbishop-lefebvre-are.html

1,284 posted on 06/05/2012 1:28:38 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: metmom
"The Catholic church doesn't do that as part of the communion service either."

"Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. - John 13:14-15

The washing of feet is done every year at the Holy Thursday Mass. You seem pretty casual about disobeying that command.

(Whatever it is you take, it isn't Communion)

Peace be with you

1,285 posted on 06/05/2012 1:29:12 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law
Matthew 26:25-29 26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”

1 Corinthians 11:23-28 23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

Both the bread and the cup are necessary parts of the communion service as commanded by Christ.

The Catholic church did not serve the cup to the laity as part of the communion service for a long time and there is recently a intent to return to that.

Sacramental wine

A simple google search of the topic *no wine at communion* will bring it up.

Jesus did not combine the two. Both are part of the communion service as practiced and commanded by Jesus.

To not follow the clear commands of Jesus is disobedience to Him.

1,286 posted on 06/05/2012 1:35:47 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
"A simple google search of the topic...

Your feeble attempts to paper and prevaricate over your error isn't working. Those who know the truth can see right through it. You have absolutely no chance of changing my mind or damaging the Church so I can only presume you are posturing for the gallery of on lookers. They too will make up their own minds. You can rage on, but the determinate factor is not who posts last in this subject, it is who posted the truth and in that regard you have already lost this fight.

Peace be with you.

1,287 posted on 06/05/2012 1:42:52 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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Comment #1,288 Removed by Moderator

To: Natural Law
The washing of feet is done every year at the Holy Thursday Mass. You seem pretty casual about disobeying that command.

Once a year. What a joke.

If it's to be considered part of the communion service, it ought to be done every time communion is served.

But then the masses would be over 45 minutes and people would get really edgy at that.

Most can't even force themselves to arrive and leave on time, much less agree to stay LONGER.

1,289 posted on 06/05/2012 1:47:28 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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Comment #1,290 Removed by Moderator

To: metmom
"If it's to be considered part of the communion service, it ought to be done every time communion is served."

Who ever said it was or is supposed to be considered as part of the "Communion service" (Properly named the Liturgy of the Eucharist or the Communion Rite).

As for frequency, the faithful are obligated to receive Communion once within their lifetime and at least on an annual basis thereafter. (kinda like that good old fashioned foot washing).

Peace be with you.

1,291 posted on 06/05/2012 2:14:40 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: boatbums
"I don't think that is how the rules work."

I never claimed to be acting within the rules. In basketball we would call that in intentional foul. I just saved the thin skinned the trouble of tattling.

Accusing me of lying is not a good defense of anyone. I never said that the cup was always available to the laity, I am only saying that the cup was NEVER absent from the Liturgy as was suggested.

You are smart enough to connect the dots.....what public health crisis broke out in Europe at the same time the Church restricted the cup to the laity? FYI - Bishops still have the authority to suspend the practice when public health is at risk. It happened in this country in some diocese during the H1N1 Pandemic scare.

(So I can attribute your leaving the Church at age 16 to an act of teenage indiscretion and defiance?)

Peace be with you.

1,292 posted on 06/05/2012 2:24:46 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: boatbums; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; caww; count-your-change; ...
Metmom is NOT lying and to accuse her of doing so when you HAVE to know that her contention that the cup was NOT offered to communicants until maybe after Vatican II, is pure obfuscation on YOUR part. The entire time I was a Roman Catholic (1952-1968), not once did I EVER have the option of partaking of the cup. NOT ONCE!

I'm sure many other Catholics remember it that way as well.

No one denies that the priest drinks all he wants, that wasn't the point. Some priests poured more than others, I noticed. But not once did the congregation get offered it.

And hence the problem with alcoholism with the priests.

1,293 posted on 06/05/2012 2:27:19 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Gamecock; metmom; All

Jesus said he was leaving an example of humility by the foot washing and that it was his example to be followed. So the foot washing never was part of the last supper ceremony as it was the braking of bread and taking the wine that was to be done “in remembrance” of him.

The few times foot washing is mentioned is not in connection with the last supper but the kind and pious acts of faithful widows. (1 Tim. 5:10)

Foot washing is not part of the remembrance or memorial meal.


1,294 posted on 06/05/2012 2:29:04 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Natural Law
NL to Metmom..Now I ask that you drop this inane line of argument because the longer it goes the more foolish and vindictive you appear. Remember, this is not about who is right, it is about what is right.

I stopped responding to this for the same reason and because it's the same Christ in both the consecrated bread and wine,it's not two separate Sacraments .Thus the commandment is fulfilled when Catholic/Orthodox receive Christ in either - we still receive The Body, Blood Soul and Divinity Of Christ.

1,295 posted on 06/05/2012 2:29:16 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Natural Law; boatbums
You are smart enough to connect the dots.....what public health crisis broke out in Europe at the same time the Church restricted the cup to the laity? FYI - Bishops still have the authority to suspend the practice when public health is at risk. It happened in this country in some diocese during the H1N1 Pandemic scare.

That's just an excuse. There are disposable plastic cups that are used widely within non-Catholic denominations for hygiene reasons.

I'm sure the cup manufacturers would not object to the added business from the Catholic church should they decide to celebrate communion with the laity the way Christ commanded without drinking out of communal cup.

1,296 posted on 06/05/2012 2:36:33 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: stfassisi

The bread remembers the body.

The cup remembers the blood.

Jesus distinguished between the two and commanded that both be partaken of.

Nobody has any right or authority to change what Jesus commanded.


1,297 posted on 06/05/2012 2:39:57 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name
It doesn't matter to me anymore because I repented for the years I spent in the catholic church

For this reason,I will not grieve the Holy Spirit in me and will not bother to respond to you.I will however pray for you at Adoration in the Kateri Chapel at the Auriesville Shrine of Martyrs Tomorrow. My prayer will be for you to repent for the mistake of leaving the Catholic Church before you die.

I wish you a Blessed evening!

1,298 posted on 06/05/2012 2:40:23 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: daniel1212; metmom
I’m not thinking just of Catholics and Protestants, but people of other faiths and people of no faith.


1,299 posted on 06/05/2012 2:45:22 PM PDT by Gamecock
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To: stfassisi
I stopped responding to this for the same reason and because it's the same Christ in both the consecrated bread and wine,it's not two separate Sacraments .Thus the commandment is fulfilled when Catholic/Orthodox receive Christ in either - we still receive The Body, Blood Soul and Divinity Of Christ.

Eat the bread. Drink the cup.

The bread recognizes the broken body. The cup recognizes the shed blood.

Two distinct parts of the Last Supper by Jesus' teaching and instruction.

Sheesh, whatever happened to taking what Jesus said literally?

1,300 posted on 06/05/2012 2:47:01 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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