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Mormons struggling with doubt turn to online support groups.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/mormons-struggling-with-doubt-turn-to-online-support-groups/2012/05/24/gJQASImHnU_print.html ^ | May 24, 2012 | Michelle Boorstein

Posted on 05/24/2012 12:19:11 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

Brian Johnston was desperate. The pressures of raising six children on one accountant salary were crushing, but worse was that he was starting to doubt the entire reason he and his wife had created a big family with a stay-at-home mom in the first place: Their Mormonism.

-SNIP-

The official church historian Marlin Jenson made news last year when he said that the loss of members in the last five or 10 years has been greater than perhaps any period since Mormonism was founded in 1830.

-SNIP-

For Mormons grappling with doubts, the potential spiritual consequences can appear frightening. Mormon scripture teaches that the lowest status in the afterlife, called Outer Darkness, is reserved for people who know Jesus and then become unbelievers. At times, the church can appear to respond harshly as well, tales about which surface on stayLDS.com, which receives about 700 visitors a day.

-SNIP-

When relatives found out four years ago that he was venting about the church online, they called his church and he was removed from leadership, he says, for expressing doubts about the literal truth of Mormonism. He lost his ”temple recommend” — a credential showing you are a good, orthodox Mormon, which means he can’t attend weddings and baptisms even of relatives or close friends, because those rituals happen in the temple and only Mormons in good standing are allowed in.

He sounds simultaneously heartbroken and seething with anger. “I’m pretty well a second-rate Mormon; I kind of sit in the back,” he said.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: mormon; politics; romney; sourcetitlenoturl
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To: SaraJohnson

it is going to be challenging for Mormons to go through this process of being center stage with Romney.
_____________________________________________

NAH not a bit of it...

The Mormons are center stage with Harry Reid...

and Harry Reid has been rtecently Man of the year for the Mormons

BTW Harry Reid is a temple Mormon...

Thats the top 15% who are in good standing and allowed to go into the temple...

just as Willard does...

You see pushing abortion and same sex marriage doesnt get you excommunicated or banned from the Mormon cult...

Its not believing in dear leader Joey Smith of his rag the book of mormon or paying your union dues that the mormon gods object too...


51 posted on 05/24/2012 4:43:36 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: fishtank

“The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created BY Him.”

where do you folks get these ideas about mormon beliefs? the mormon church absolutely believes that Christ created this world and everything in it. please explain what is meant by the scripture you reference: “He was with God in the beginning.” I assume He is Christ.

So, is this scripture saying that God and Christ are separate entities? that’s how it sounds to me. If i were at an event with my father at the beginning of that event, i would also say that i was with my father at the beginning. it would not mean that i am also my own father.

i just don’t understand scripturally [KVJ] where Christ and God the Father are the same entity. why would Christ be asking the Father to remove this cup in the Garden of Gethsemane, but Thine will be done, if he and God were the same?? would he be asking himself whether to go ahead with the crucifixion or not? it just doesn’t make sense to me.


52 posted on 05/24/2012 5:50:10 PM PDT by IWONDR
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To: greyfoxx39

‘I see that as no reason to accept a follower of Joseph Smith into the White House”

you don’t have to. you can just accept a follower of Mohamed instead. 4 more years of BO will be the final nail in the coffin of America that i know and love.


53 posted on 05/24/2012 5:54:35 PM PDT by IWONDR
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To: IWONDR; fishtank

Just to refresh your memory “iwonder”, lds do not worship the same God or Jesus as Christians.

“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

Jesus is a creation, the product of relations between god and his goddess wife who used to be people from another world (McConkie, Bruce, Mormon Doctrine, p. 192, 321, 516, 589).

The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129)

God himself, was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! It is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)

We are brethren and sisters of Satan as well as of Jesus. It may be startling doctrine to many to say this; but Satan is our brother. Jesus is our brother. (Apostle George Q. Cannon, March 11th, 1894, Collected Discourses, compiled by Brian Stuy, vol. 4, p. 23)

God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man. (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742)


54 posted on 05/24/2012 6:12:25 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Tennessee Nana

“Dead dunking is blasphemeous and unBiblical..”

1Corinthians 15:

[12] Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

[13] But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

[14] And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

[15] Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

[16] For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

[17] And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

[18] Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

[19] If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.

[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

[27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
*************
[28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
**************
[29] Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

TennNanna: Please explain what is meant by verse 28 where it says that the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him? Who is the Son? and who is Him?

Also, please clarify for my ignorance, what is verse 29 telling us? “why are they then baptized for the dead?” who is being baptized for the dead?

Based on all your comments, i’m sure you have some religious training to help me understand what these scriptures from the KJV of the Holy Bible are saying to us? thanks.


55 posted on 05/24/2012 6:22:08 PM PDT by IWONDR
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To: CatherineofAragon

“But all of a sudden, calling a non-Christian religion what it is counts as “bashing.” Nonsense.”

So, if you are a mainstream Christian of some well know denomination, and a group of people claimed that you weren’t Christian because your particular Christian denomination [say Methodist] wasn’t really Christian because you weren’t, lets say, a Baptist, you wouldn’t feel that you were being “bashed” by being called a non-Christian?


56 posted on 05/24/2012 6:37:37 PM PDT by IWONDR
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To: Tennessee Nana
“I have to stand up for the Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church’s right to excommunicate those members who don’t agree with the Christian doctrine.”

I agree TN, Mormonism is a cult and I applaud you for standing up for "the real Jesus, the real gospel and the real Holy Spirit"! I wish that more Christian knew what Mormonism was about and their history!

As a black man I often ask them about their racist history and they act like they don't know what I'm talking about!
57 posted on 05/24/2012 7:45:16 PM PDT by ForAmerica (Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: IWONDR

Kid you must have thought enough of my comment

“Dead dunking is blasphemeous and unBiblical..”

to put that part in quotes and repeat it...

Just go with it...

it is what it is...

Dead dunking is blasphemeous and unBiblical..


58 posted on 05/24/2012 9:47:31 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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Comment #59 Removed by Moderator

To: ForAmerica; Buckeye McFrog

Oh I was just suggesting that Buckeye might want to feel the same protection towards Christian churches as he does about the Mormon religion...

Buckeye had said in Post #4

“I have to stand up for the Mormon Church’s right to “temple decommit” or excommunicate or whatever they want to call it those members who don’t agree with the doctrine.”

Actually today Joey Smith the inventor of the Mormon religion (and an avowed racist) would be excommunicated for polygamy and not living up to and agreeing with the Mormon doctrines ...

as would Brigham Young who also was a polygamist and owned slaves and had some shocking things to say about people with dark skin...

and also several of the “fathers” of Willard Romney...

Out they would go on their royal Mormon family hinnies...


60 posted on 05/24/2012 9:57:15 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: IWONDR

Paul makes it pretty clear regarding Christ and the Father and heir relationship and that they are two distinct personages, both being God...as does Christ himself and the Gospels.

Paul also speaks to Baptism for the Dead plainly, making it clear that if there was no resurrection resulting from Christ, there would be no need to be baptised for the dead...but there Christ did bring the resurrection, ergo...

Anyhow, my intent earlier was simply to clarify what happens in the Church regarding a person who loses their temple recommend as opposed to the impression the article left. They can still attend baptisms of their friends or relatives, and any civil marriage ceremonies held in the Chapels.

They just can’t attend the temple until they meet those requirements once again...and that means they cannot be a part of Baptisms for the Dead, or Temple Marriages.

I expected to get several responses from the Flying Inmans (a name they call themselves) and they did not disappoint. But they were taking issue with doctrine and my intent was simply to give explanation and clarification to the article.

Thanks for providing reference to some of the doctrinal side. God’s speed, and BZ.

My Witness for Christ, as an LDS Member
http://www.jeffhead.com/jlhwitness.htm


61 posted on 05/24/2012 10:07:37 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: ForAmerica

I cut my teeth on mormonism over 40 years ago...

I worked with one who destroyed my belongings badmouthed me to our co-workers and demanded that our boss fire me...

The Mormon missionary was the one who left in a huff...

But not before she left a pile of literature about Mormonism and Joey Smith digging in the dirt in his Sunday-go-to-meeting clothes and polygamy etc behind...

she had been wooing our very land rich and money rich bosses and they said No thanks we’re Methodists..

She kept telling them more and more secrets and they finally convinced her I guess...

In one afternoon after she had left, my boss taught me all she had been told about Mormonism

and begged me never to join them that they were a cult and not Chritsin

at 19 I had been already saved for 11 years and read the Bible several times...

Even I recognized that what i was reading and discussing with my boss was not Christianity but blasphemy of an evil seductive sort...

So God allowed me to know then in 1968 more probably that your average BIC Mormon knows today...

Ive watched them evolve from not claiming to be Christians to trying to replace real Christians..

The old replacement theology at work...

Theyve added the Mormon holy ghost and a few other things since 1968..

although its more of a mascot lap dog...

It doesnt have any power and doesnt do anything...

Oh and its not entitled to a body like the Mormon gods and the Mormon jesus has...

It hasnt earned one...


62 posted on 05/24/2012 10:11:16 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: greyfoxx39

The most important reason that I oppose Romney has nothing to do with what he believes. My main reason for opposing Romney is because he really doesn’t believe in anything other than his own personal advancement.


63 posted on 05/24/2012 10:23:34 PM PDT by Tau Food (Tom Hoefling for President - 2012)
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To: Tennessee Nana

Sorry, Nana, you may think you know a lot about the Church, but your comment there reveals that you really know very little.

I joined the Church in 1970. The Holy Ghost was taught then, and clear back to the founding of the Church, just as it was in the New Testament and in the Book of Mormon.

The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead,. His mission is to testify of truth through the power of the Spirit, which is why He is still a spirit and will receive His body after the great work of God and Christ are done...He having been the one all along to drive the message home into the hearts of mankind.

It is why the Church has allways Baptised people in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

That’s what the church teaches and has taught from the start. The Holy Ghost was not “added” after 1968. And the church certainly does not teach or consider that He is a “lapdog.”

Your use of such terms to descibe the beliefs of others is not beoming of you, Nana...it is direspectful and shows vitriol and mockery that, IMHO, is unbecoming a Christian.

But just so you can know, that is what the Church teaches.

Have a great Memorial Day weekend.


64 posted on 05/24/2012 10:27:02 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: IWONDR

The idea of the trinity is not easy or obvious, and if it were not for the direct teachings of Christ and the Apostles, most of us would probably allow ourselves to believe in a badly watered down version of God. But real things often go against our convenient simplifications. We barely understand how a bumble bee flies, but we pretend to know how God exists as God? We would have no shot at understanding God if he did not reveal himself to us, at least just a little. Happily, he has done so.

Consider the words of John:

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You only quoted part of this passage in your post. But the passage must be taken as a whole. Understanding that John here uses the “Word” to refer to Jesus, this passage teaches:

1. That Jesus existed from the beginning.
2. That Jesus was with God.
3. That Jesus was God.

Now lets absorb that first. From the beginning. That is, there never was a time when Jesus wasn’t, then suddenly came into being. Didn’t happen that way. He was always there.

Next, we see he was both with God, and was God. Odd thing for John to put it that way. You can see how the early Christians must have scratched their heads over this one, just like you did. How can he be “with” God and also “be” God. Sounds impossible. Humans can’t live that way. But then we’re talking about God, right? Why should it be impossible? He can exist in ways we cannot imagine.

To continue, we also see:

4. That all things were made by Jesus
5. That there is no created thing that wasn’t made by Jesus

See how John fences the reader in from both sides, to make doubly sure they get what he is saying. On the one hand, Jesus made everything. Cool. But just in case you’re still tempted to think Jesus was himself created, or the offspring of some earlier-in-time deity, John cuts off that avenue by saying if it’s a “made” thing, Jesus made it. That would mean that Jesus himself must preexist all “made” things. And that would mean he himself is eternal, uncreated, which matches perfectly with the teaching that there never was a time when Jesus wasn’t, just like God, and because he is God.

Not easy to understand, but if it is what God teaches us through his word, what choice do we have? We must believe it.


65 posted on 05/24/2012 10:53:54 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
Thank you SR. Your post was beautiful in your explanation of the Biblical Point of view. Thank you again for a thoughtful insight into the Biblical View
66 posted on 05/24/2012 10:58:28 PM PDT by BooBoo1000 ("The plans I have for you are plans to prosper you.,not to harm you, Plans to give you hope)
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To: IWONDR

“you wouldn’t feel that you were being “bashed””

Well right there you’ve put your finger on it. So-called “bashing” is largely about feeling, not reason. But words do have meaning. If every belief system can co-opt the term Christian and apply it without limit to distinctly non-Christian beliefs, the word loses its meaning. It becomes a mere fashion accessory.

I only ask that people be honest. “Christian” as a label got its meaning from the early followers of Christ, as defined by their written record, the Bible. Along with that label came a body of specific doctrines about God, Jesus, man, salvation, etc. When a much later group comes along with a new and very different set of doctrines and claims the same label, a rational person could see that as creating a set of competing and contradictory claims that would have to be resolved, normally in favor of the first inventor.

Think of this as a patent problem. Someone invents a rocket powered gym shoe and call it a “hotfoot.” Someone else comes along, much later, and invents another version of the rocket gym shoe, using a mix of components, some stolen directly from the “hotfoot,” word for word, and some from other completely incompatible sources. And of course they also call it the “hotfoot.”

Given the above scenario, do you really think it would be “bashing” if the original inventor claimed infringement? Or dilution or confusion of brand or trademark? The original “hotfoot” inventor has a right to keep the original label associated with the original product. If someone comes up with a new product, they can market their product like everyone else, but let them make their own name. That would be the honest thing to do.


67 posted on 05/24/2012 11:47:17 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: greyfoxx39

Hi,

I wanted to share a verse I heard a Catholic apologist
state shows Jesus Christ IS GOD. A new one to me.

John 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. [5] And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.


68 posted on 05/25/2012 12:03:15 AM PDT by stpio
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To: IWONDR
"So, if you are a mainstream Christian of some well know denomination, and a group of people claimed that you weren’t Christian because your particular Christian denomination [say Methodist] wasn’t really Christian because you weren’t, lets say, a Baptist, you wouldn’t feel that you were being “bashed” by being called a non-Christian?"

It's not about feelings, but facts. And your comparison doesn't work because, as you say, you're talking about varying denominations of the Christian faith. Even with their doctrinal differences, they're all Christian and share the same basic creed. A religion which denies the Bible, and basic Christian doctrine---i.e., saying that God used to be human, and humans will one day be gods---is not, by definition, Christian, though it might say so, and might try to get others to say so, too. This is not hate, nor is it bigotry. It's simply stating what IS.

69 posted on 05/25/2012 11:15:35 AM PDT by CatherineofAragon (Time for a write-in campaign...Darryl Dixon for President)
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To: Jeff Head; IWONDR
Paul also speaks to Baptism for the Dead plainly, making it clear that if there was no resurrection resulting from Christ, there would be no need to be baptised for the dead...

Iwondr, what Jeff fails to reference in the 1 Cor. 15 verse he's talking about is that Paul said "they" baptize the dead -- not "we." (Who are the "they?")

If I said in 2012 "they" baptize the dead -- meaning Mormons -- that doesn't mean I do it/we do it...or that it's an endorsement just 'cause I mentioned it.

Typical incompletion/obfuscation from Jeff.

70 posted on 05/30/2012 9:49:47 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Jeff Head; Tennessee Nana
...which is why He is still a spirit and will receive His body after the great work of God and Christ are done...

So you "prophesy" here Jeff -- claiming that the Holy Spirit is somehow "incomplete" minus a body...

Utter blasphemy!

...and you "prophesy" He will receive a body?

Are you a "prophet" Jeff? If not, where did you get this specific prophesy from? (Source, chapter & verse, please)

Right now, I'll consider the source as Hot Air 3:16.

71 posted on 05/30/2012 9:53:48 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god f rom Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Jeff Head

You’re always okay in my book, Jeff. I suspect you’re okay in God’s Book, too. :-)


72 posted on 05/30/2012 9:59:23 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Colofornian
Typical incompletion/obfuscation from Jeff.

Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

73 posted on 05/30/2012 10:06:22 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Jeff Head

**It is why the Church has allways Baptised people in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.**

There has to be more to this statement, for the Catholic Church does not accept the Baptism of a Mormon when a former Mormon seeks to enter the Catholic Church.

And I don’t think that other churches accept the Mormon baptism either, but I could be wrong.


74 posted on 05/30/2012 10:18:23 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Jeff Head

...it is direspectful and shows vitriol and mockery that, IMHO, is unbecoming a Christian.
_________________________________________

Joey Smith the founder of your religion was “direspectful and showed vitriol and mockery” towards Christianity...

do you think that should have drawn your indignant ojectioin on behalf of us Christians ???

Or is Mormonism something special and superior to Christianity ???

wouldnt Joey Smith be acting in a way that was “unbecoming a Mormon” ???

Oh silly me...

There I go again..

as you said I “think you know a lot about the Church, but your comment there reveals that you really know very little”

The fact is that Mormons are blood sworn to be “direspectful and show vitriol and mockery” towards Christianity...

From the first Mormon Joey Smith on down...

and as we know we Christians get a lot of that in these threads from the Mormons...


75 posted on 05/30/2012 10:33:36 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Larry Lucido

Thanks LArry, the feelings are mutual.

God’s speed and blessings to you and yours...and I pray His blessings on our nation that we as a poeple can rise up and throw off the Kenyan MArxist and his Chicago style governance and cohorts and abettors, and return closer to or fundamental moral and republican roots to start a turn around in America.

I believe that is what is riding on the elction of 2012.

BZ.


76 posted on 05/30/2012 10:39:25 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Tennessee Nana

Nana, I have never mocked or shown vitriol towards you or your beliefs.

Joseph Smith quoted what he said God in Heavne told him, and it wasn’t about the people themselves, it was about the teachings that had strayed from Christ’s original teachings.

Clearly, you do not believe they had...and that is fine. we simply teach that Christ restored the fullness of His Gospel and His Church to the erth and invite all to come and test the waters. It is entirely up to them and we are taught to respect the beliefs and sincere heartfelt sentiments of others toards our Savior, Jesus Christ, even if they are not LDS.

Not everyone chooses to do that and I have been on record here on FR speaking against that...wherever it comes from.

I personally believe that anyone who sincerely accepts Jesus Christ into their hearts as Lord and Savior is a Christian and will be left standing at the last day.

I believe He will give them the opportunity to know the whole truth...whatever it may be...and that any sincere follower of our Savior, when He testifies of His truth to them and they know it, will follow Him and His teaching.

So, when He appears, I am sure, because I believe you are sincere in your love for Christ, you will do whatever He says, even if He says to go to the Temple.

And for my part, should He tell me to stop or not go there, well then I certainly will not do so, because He is my Savior and Lord and I will follow Him.

That’s how I feel, nana, and how I have been taught to feel towards others, and what I teach at church and anywhere else.


77 posted on 05/30/2012 10:47:35 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: IWONDR
I offer this as something for you to consider, as you see fit:

The One God evidences Himself in the work He is doing

The following will be 'a way' to understand the notion of the trinitarian nature of the Deity, not a strictly Biblical explanation, but one which is applicable to the teaching of the Bible. Here goes:

God The Father Almighty is greater than His creation, thus greater than dimension time and dimension space, thus we may think of The Father Almighty as beyond time and space but not prevented from touching and indeed penetrating His creation.

The universe of space and time is likened to a bubble: what is inside the bubble is in time and space. But the nature of what is inside the bubble is only partially understood in modern Physics.

The Bible relates scenes which defy our simplistic notions, but let us make the statement that God The Father Almighty is as comfortable outside the bubble of our spacetime as He is inside the bubble.

Modern Physics has discovered that the balance of forces and tensions sustaining the universe necessary for human life to arise within the universe is extremely delicate, on the order of a mathematical improbability, represented as a 'one in less than' fraction so tiny that a one over a one followed by more than one-hundred zeros [1/1x10100] defines the probability that the whole thing remains in balance! Such a delicate balancing act is but one of the continuing 'works' of the Holy Spirit of God. It is by the Spirit of God, The Word, that the universe came into existence and it is said in the Bible that by His Spirit the whole is maintained.

But the Bible also states that The Word was with God in the beginning and was God. In John's gospel we find that Jesus is The Word made flesh Who dwelt among us. So, inside the bubble Created by The Father Almighty, sustained by God The Holy Spirit, is the Word, God made flesh Who dwelt among us. The Creator does not stop being greater than His creation bubble, nor does His Spirit cease to sustain it all in balance, when Jesus comes in the flesh to dwell among us.

When one reads the Tanakh/Old Testament, one finds scenes like the fifth chapter of Daniel where a being is in one spacetime 'where/when' reaching into another 'where/when' to write on the palace party central wall of king Belshazzar. Just the forearm/hand is seen in the where/when of Belshazzar and the party folks, the rest of the being remains in 'another' where/when.

God The Father Almighty created this 'other' where/when, His Holy Spirit maintains its balance and separateness from our where/when, and Jesus has moved in and out of this other where/when: as shown when He resurrected from the tomb without rolling away the stone, just passing out of the tomb where/when, into 'another' where/when; then back into our where/when as He spoke to the women come to the sepulchre; and when He appeared in a locked and shuttered room with the disciples present; or appeared suddenly with the disciples walking on a road and broke bread with them then left our where/when to go to the 'other' where/when.

The trinitarian nature of God is shown in the Bible, even in the Tanakh. Trinity IS the nature of God as we have been given to know. Even in the Old Testament/Tanakh, we do have instruction on the Three nature of God as Creator, Sustainer, and Deliverer. God Is manifested as three yet one, seen identified by the 'work' He is doing/'action' He is taking.

With each manifestation, we are given to realize His presence simultaneously as Creator--because we exist in the realm He created, as Sustainer--because the balance is too delicate to stand alone without His sustaining the separation and interdependence, and as God with us in the person of Jesus our Lord and Savior.


78 posted on 05/30/2012 11:08:44 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: IWONDR
I offer this as something for you to consider, as you see fit:

The One God evidences Himself in the work He is doing

The following will be 'a way' to understand the notion of the trinitarian nature of the Deity, not a strictly Biblical explanation, but one which is applicable to the teaching of the Bible. Here goes:

God The Father Almighty is greater than His creation, thus greater than dimension time and dimension space, thus we may think of The Father Almighty as beyond time and space but not prevented from touching and indeed penetrating His creation.

The universe of space and time is likened to a bubble: what is inside the bubble is in time and space. But the nature of what is inside the bubble is only partially understood in modern Physics.

The Bible relates scenes which defy our simplistic notions, but let us make the statement that God The Father Almighty is as comfortable outside the bubble of our spacetime as He is inside the bubble.

Modern Physics has discovered that the balance of forces and tensions sustaining the universe necessary for human life to arise within the universe is extremely delicate, on the order of a mathematical improbability, represented as a 'one in less than' fraction so tiny that a one over a one followed by more than one-hundred zeros [1/1x10100] defines the probability that the whole thing remains in balance! Such a delicate balancing act is but one of the continuing 'works' of the Holy Spirit of God. It is by the Spirit of God, The Word, that the universe came into existence and it is said in the Bible that by His Spirit the whole is maintained.

But the Bible also states that The Word was with God in the beginning and was God. In John's gospel we find that Jesus is The Word made flesh Who dwelt among us. So, inside the bubble Created by The Father Almighty, sustained by God The Holy Spirit, is the Word, God made flesh Who dwelt among us. The Creator does not stop being greater than His creation bubble, nor does His Spirit cease to sustain it all in balance, when Jesus comes in the flesh to dwell among us.

When one reads the Tanakh/Old Testament, one finds scenes like the fifth chapter of Daniel where a being is in one spacetime 'where/when' reaching into another 'where/when' to write on the palace party central wall of king Belshazzar. Just the forearm/hand is seen in the where/when of Belshazzar and the party folks, the rest of the being remains in 'another' where/when.

God The Father Almighty created this 'other' where/when, His Holy Spirit maintains its balance and separateness from our where/when, and Jesus has moved in and out of this other where/when: as shown when He resurrected from the tomb without rolling away the stone, just passing out of the tomb where/when, into 'another' where/when; then back into our where/when as He spoke to the women come to the sepulchre; and when He appeared in a locked and shuttered room with the disciples present; or appeared suddenly with the disciples walking on a road and broke bread with them then left our where/when to go to the 'other' where/when.

The trinitarian nature of God is shown in the Bible, even in the Tanakh. Trinity IS the nature of God as we have been given to know. Even in the Old Testament/Tanakh, we do have instruction on the Three nature of God as Creator, Sustainer, and Deliverer. God Is manifested as three yet one, seen identified by the 'work' He is doing/'action' He is taking.

With each manifestation, we are given to realize His presence simultaneously as Creator--because we exist in the realm He created, as Sustainer--because the balance is too delicate to stand alone without His sustaining the separation and interdependence, and as God with us in the person of Jesus our Lord and Savior.


79 posted on 05/30/2012 11:08:55 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Jeff Head

The Holy Ghost was taught then, and clear back to the founding of the Church, just as it was in the New Testament
_______________________________________

AH “taught” ???

You mention the Christian Bible ...

What about the Old Testament of the Bible ???

The Holy Ghost was present right at the first verse Genesis 1:1

Th the beginning, God...

God the Father, God the Word and God the Holy Spirit..

Then when we look at the New Testament, the last Book of the Bible...there arte only those two...

we find in John 1:1 again In the Begining...

This time John is speaking of the second person of the Trinity, the Word..God..

Read this Jeffie and learn something...

You are sadly unschooled in the things of God..
John goes on to say...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God..John 1:1

Then John goes back to mention Genesis

the same (the Word) was IN THE BEGINNIG with God

Then John tells us that the Word created everythging

All things were made by Him...

You see Jeffie when God opened His mouth and spoke and said “Let there be light” there was absolutely NOTHING...

But whenb He spoke out of His mouth came (What or who Jeffie thats right5 kid) the WORD...

The WORD came out of the mouth of God and did what ???

He created ...Light...in that Light was life..

What was the Light Jeffie ???

Yes

the Word of God...

Who later took on flesh and became the LORD Jesus Christ...

Dont argue with me because you have no learnin and you dont understand what happened

ask the Holy Spirit...

He was there too...

OK so here we have established that the Word was there in the beginning and Light was created...

and so was everything else...

The heavens, the Earth, the plants, the fish, birds animals...

and yes Adam...and his wife, Eve...

and Jeffie when God brought Eve to Adam He was marrying them...

They had sex in the Garden of Eden...

It was not a sin...

They were married by Pastor God...

Their sin which caused the downfall of man was their disobedience to God in eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...

Here Adam and Eve were romping through the Garden buck naked, eternal honeymoon..

Taking to God, playing with the animals, smelling the flowers picking the fruit.. apples included...that was not the forbidden fruit...

but when they sinned all that stopped...

God tossed them out of the Garden and put angels with fiery swords at the gates so thet they could not eat the fruit from that other tree, the Tree of Life which would cause them to live forever...

Thats why we all are born into sin ...because of the awful sin of Adam..

Sin, evil distruction, death, murder, rape robbery, terrorism, false religion came into the world because of the first Adam...

But the last Adam is the Word...who became flesh and dwelled among us...John 1:14

The Word of God did not have any flesh just as God the Father has not flesh, just as God the Holy spirit has no flesh...

When Mary became pregnant without the aid of sex with man or Mormon god, then the Word took on flesh right from conception as any other human baby does...

Ignorant men not understanding the abilities, the Power, the miracles of God thought at one time that Mary had to have had se3x with a male in order to conceive...

But God Almighty is just that...Almighty...He can do anything...beyond the puny imagination of man...

If He could speak the world into being from nothing and make a human Adam His greatest creation from a handful of dirt and without the sex act...

There is no reason to believe that He didnt create the LORD Jesus Christ in the womb of a little unmarried virgin without the aid of man or Mormon god...

God can do anything...

As He said to Mary when she wondered “NOTHING is impossible for God”

So Jeffie the Word of God became flesh and dwelled among us...

and then John goes on to tell us more...

But if you are interested at all then you need to go to a Christian bookstore or Walmart or B&N and get yourself a Bible and read it...

Because you have a confused idea of just who the Holy Spirit really is...

For instance why did the Holy Spirit have to be present when the LORD Jesus was baptised in water by John ???

Well Jeffie the Word was God but up till that time Jesus did not have the power of God...

He did after the Holy Spirit anointed Him at the River Jordan...

As Luke in the 4th Chapter tells us He said in the Temple later (quoting Isaiah 61) “The SPIRIT of the LORD God is upon me because the LORD has annointed me to preach, heal, proclaim freedom, open the spiritual prisons

and proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD and the day of vengence...

comfort, give beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise”

and so on...

Well that was enough to make the legalists of His day mad and accuse Him of bashing the Jews...

Just who was that Man who walked into the Temple in Nazareth and asked for the scroll of Isaiah ???

Well Jeffie you need to read all about Him for yourself...

Since years of study seem important to you and you didnt enter Mormonism until 1970, I started studying the Christian Bible about 1950..


80 posted on 05/30/2012 11:31:20 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Jeff Head

Oh and I learned much about the false religion Mormonism in one afternoon in 1968. taught and warned by a Methodist lady 2 years before you were seduced into it...


81 posted on 05/30/2012 11:35:54 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Jeff Head

Joseph Smith quoted what he said God in Heavne told him
__________________________________________

Where did you get that from

Source ???

When did Joey Smith ever say that either of the 2 things that he claims he saw were “God in Heaven” ???


82 posted on 05/30/2012 11:41:44 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Dont argue with me because you have no learnin and you dont understand what happened

Mind reading is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

83 posted on 05/30/2012 11:50:34 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator; Jeff Head

Sorry..

I will restate..

Jeff when you said in your Post #64 “Sorry, Nana, you may think you know a lot about the Church, but your comment there reveals that you really know very little.”

I felt you were mistaken, as I had mentioned that the Holy Spirit in Christianity has no body just as God the Father has no body...

We are told so by the LORD Jesus Christ Himself...

“God is Spirit” John 4:24

Hows that RM ???

Is that better ???


84 posted on 05/30/2012 12:20:10 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Jeff Head

So, when He appears, I am sure, because I believe you are sincere in your love for Christ, you will do whatever He says, even if He says to go to the Temple.
_______________________________________________

Oh Jeff Ive already been to the Temple...

I was in Jerusalem in 1988...

That is a good theory though since the LORD Jesus Christ is coming back to Israel to rule and reign there...


85 posted on 05/30/2012 12:30:25 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Tennessee Nana

Much better.


86 posted on 05/30/2012 3:37:14 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Tennessee Nana
Christ Himeself indicated in the New Testament that, "I and the Father are one." He later prayeed to His Father (was He prayning to Huinself? No, I don't think so) and asked that His disciples "might be one, as we are one," when addressing the Father.

Did he mean for them all to mystically join together into one entity without body parts or passion? No, He clearly (as His prayer goes on to say) meant for them to be united and one in purpose as He and the Father are one, and He even discusses that oneness and that glory that the two of them had before the world was.

Of course Christ created the Earth and this universe, He did so expressly at the command of His Father so His Father's children could be sent here to live in mortality and so Christ Himself could come and be offered on the cross to save them...us!

In Genesis they speak of that plurality when speaking of Admm and Eve's transgression and Satan's lie. Clearly Satan and the angels of Heaven were there before too, because the Old Testament indicates that they rebelled and were cast out.

Anyhow. God says in Genesis, that the man had become as one of "us". Who is the us if they are only one? The us is all three of them, God the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost, yes indeed all there, but also all three seperate and referred to by none less than God himself as being so.

He makes it clear that the lie Satan told was not, "Thou shalt become as the Gods knowing good and evil," which they did do according to God's own testimony, but that Satan's lie was, "thou shalt not surely die," which they did after being made mortal and getting cast out of the garden.

That's all right there in Genesis for all to read and it makes the point better than I can. Thank you for bringing it up.

Then back in the New Testament it makes it all the more clear at Christ's batism why the voice of God came out of Heaven at the same time the Holy Spirit descended seperately, and Christ was seperately in the water...all three seperate and distrinct. Also on the mount of transfiguration where again, God spoke, praising His Son when Peter James and John were with Him, and when Stephen the martyr was stoned, and as he died he cried out that he saw Jesus Christ sitting on the throne at the right hand of, "next" to God. He didn't say He saw Jesus as God the Father, he saw Him on the right hand next to God the Father...two distinct entities again.

Anyhow, that's all right there in the Bible, new Testament and Old.

And, OBTW, we were all there with them, because in Jeremiah we read where that Prophet is told that God knew him (Jeremiah) before he was formed in the belly, and ordained him a prophet in that pre-mortal existance. All of us were there and, as the Old Testament records, we all shouted for joy at the foundations of this Earth.

So, the evidence that explains both sets of scripture (because the Bible does not contradict itself) is clearly that they are one, one in purpose, and that there are three of them in the Godhead, The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (that's the us and the we), all three distinct and speperate as the scriptures testify on those numerous of occassions.

It makes clear what Christ said regarding their oneness, and makes clear what was said regarding them being seperate and Christ praying to the Father, and indicating that he came to do the Father's will, not His own.

Have a great evening, Nana.

As I have said many times, we may differ in interpretation, but we are joined in Christ, because He is my Lord and Savior, jsut as He is yours, and He will settle all differences like this when He comes in His glory, and I look forward to that day and pray for it to be hastened.

87 posted on 05/30/2012 4:17:07 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head

Of course Christ created the Earth and this universe, He did so expressly at the command of His Father
______________________________________________

Another good guess, Jeff...

But no...

There was no “Christ” in the beginning and there was no “Father” ...

The Second Person of the Trinity was the Word...The “Father” didnt command anyone...

The Word was equal with God as was the Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit...

Remember as you said that the LORD Jesus said “I and my Father are ONE”

He never said another part of God lorded it over Him...


88 posted on 05/30/2012 5:16:14 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Jeff Head

Of course Christ created the Earth and this universe, He did so expressly at the command of His Father so His Father’s children could be sent here to live in mortality and so Christ Himself could come and be offered on the cross to save them...us!
_____________________________________________

Gosh Jeff that is an interesting theory...

BVut God doesnt do things so roundabout...

He is direct and goes straight to the goal...

Why would He take the long way around when he can just fly across and over ???

Now these “children you mention ...where did they come from to be “sent here ???

I didnt comer from anywhere myself...I originated in the loins of Adam and then was conceived and born of my parents...

I never did live anywhere else...

Who are those people you seem to identify yourself with ???

I ask because thats not in the Christian Bible..

There were no humans until Adam...

and he was not until God gathered up dust and blew life into him on the 6th day...

Next came his wife Eve and then they had the twins Cain and Abel and then Seth ...

Im glad you set such store by the words of the LORD Jesus Christ but He only talked about Adam and never mentioned creating an Earth and Universe for your other people...

and Christ never came...

The Word, the Second Person of the Trinity came and became flesh and dwelt among men as Jesus, Emannuel, Salvation...


89 posted on 05/30/2012 5:29:30 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Jeff Head

He makes it clear that the lie Satan told was not, “Thou shalt become as the Gods knowing good and evil,” which they did do according to God’s own testimony, but that Satan’s lie was, “thou shalt not surely die,” which they did after being made mortal and getting cast out of the garden.

That’s all right there in Genesis for all to read and it makes the point better than I can. Thank you for bringing it up.
_________________________________________________

Yes that is interesting...

So are you saying that after Eve lied about what God had told them, the serpent agreed with her lie...

or did he tell a different lie ???

Was he agreeing to the part where she did tell the truth...

or was he ignoring that part ???

Either way, Eve wasnt interested in putting much importance in what God had to say...

and so God punished her sin by making childbearing painful...

and because she refused to obey God as her master, He made her husband master instead..

and as you pointed out Jesus shed His Blood on the Cross to save us and made men and women equal again because she now had a new husband the LORD Jesus Christ Himself..

To think she and we women could have had a much easier time of it if Adam had made sure his wife knew what God had commanded instead of just haphazardly passing on the commandments to her...

That shows right there that women must read the Bible for themselves and have a relationship with the LORD Jesus Christ for themselves...

so that they can get the info right from the source so to speak..

Thanks for pointing that out Jeffie...

That is interesting...

It also shows that a woman can be just as good or better than a man as POTUS...

She just needs the opportunity to learn for herself...

Its a pity that we have to put up with the liberal Willard Romney when we could have had the Conservative Michele Bachman...

or even Gov Sarah Palin...

Im sure the RM is very pleased with how well we are doing

:)


90 posted on 05/30/2012 5:47:09 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Jeff Head

in Jeremiah we read where that Prophet is told that God knew him (Jeremiah) before he was formed in the belly, and ordained him a prophet in that pre-mortal existance
______________________________________

Jeffie that is another good guess...

But no there is no mention of any pre-mortal existance in that scripture...Jeremiah 1:5

God just said He KNEW Jeremiah meaning He had the blueprint for Jeremiah’s future existance, his future which meant Jeremiah did not as yet exist when God thought of him..

Later in Jeremiah 1:5 God tells him “Before I formed you” meaning Jeremaih never existed until then...

There was no “pre-mortal existance” Jeffie...

Did you think there was for some reason ???

There is no mention of anything in the Bible...

IN THE BEGINNING Genesis 1:1 means just that..


91 posted on 05/30/2012 6:05:47 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Sorry, Nana, the Bible is filled with references to pre-mortal life. Including Jeremiah,whom God say He knew before he was born, and ordained him there...not just "thought of him", the Sons of God who shouted for joy at the creation of the earth, the rebellion by Satan and his followers for which they were cast out, Lucifer, Son of the Morning, fallen from Heaven.

Also, Christ Himself speaks of being with the Father before the foundation of the earth, and the glory they shared.

So, despite your condescending attitude with your cotninuous "Jeffie" references, which again, Nana, IMHO, is not really very becoming to you as a Christian, the Bible is filled with these references and the various denominations interpret them diferently (as you just shared your own), or do not interpret them at all, clainming them simply to ne the mysterious of God.

We of course feel that it points clearly to God the Father, His Son, and the Holy Ghost being involved with all of us as God the Father's children, whom Paul claims we surely are, for ages and ages before this earth was ever created.

Clearly, you and yours interpret it differently. Which is fine. In the end, Christ Himself will reveal all truth to His own because Jesus, Son of God the Father, and Him crucified, atoning for the sins of the world is the essential doctrine.

Have a great evening...gotta get the shut eye necessary for work tomorrow.

92 posted on 05/30/2012 9:56:57 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head

Sorry, Nana, the Bible is filled with references to pre-mortal life. Including Jeremiah,whom God say He knew before he was born, and ordained him there...not just “thought of him”, the Sons of God who shouted for joy at the creation of the earth, the rebellion by Satan and his followers for which they were cast out, Lucifer, Son of the Morning, fallen from Heaven.
____________________________________________

Oh youre talking about angels...

OK

But angels arent human they never were...

and and they dont become human..

There never was a pre-mortal existance for humans...

Jeremiah 1:5 doesnt mention it and theres nowhere in the Bible that does...

Satan was Lucifer an angel..

Satan was never human..

angels are not mortal...

they cant die..

theyre created beings..

Meanwhile Jeffie Jeremaiah never existed until he was concieved in the womb of his mother...

It takes 2 Earthly human parents to create a new human baby...

we all start out here on Earth...

again where do you get these strange ideas from ???


93 posted on 05/31/2012 4:13:25 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Jeff Head

Jeffie maybe if you actually quoted a scripture from the Christian Bible we can look at it and try to figure out just why you feel that angels are humans..

Just give us the scripture reference and the words in the version you are reading...

We have scholars in the original Greek and Hebrew here who can help you with the problem...

Cheerio for now..

Got to go work on my PHD this morning...

Im building a fence around my garden...

:)


94 posted on 05/31/2012 4:26:52 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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