Posted on 05/24/2012 12:19:11 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
Brian Johnston was desperate. The pressures of raising six children on one accountant salary were crushing, but worse was that he was starting to doubt the entire reason he and his wife had created a big family with a stay-at-home mom in the first place: Their Mormonism.
-SNIP-
The official church historian Marlin Jenson made news last year when he said that the loss of members in the last five or 10 years has been greater than perhaps any period since Mormonism was founded in 1830.
-SNIP-
For Mormons grappling with doubts, the potential spiritual consequences can appear frightening. Mormon scripture teaches that the lowest status in the afterlife, called Outer Darkness, is reserved for people who know Jesus and then become unbelievers. At times, the church can appear to respond harshly as well, tales about which surface on stayLDS.com, which receives about 700 visitors a day.
-SNIP-
When relatives found out four years ago that he was venting about the church online, they called his church and he was removed from leadership, he says, for expressing doubts about the literal truth of Mormonism. He lost his ”temple recommend” — a credential showing you are a good, orthodox Mormon, which means he can’t attend weddings and baptisms even of relatives or close friends, because those rituals happen in the temple and only Mormons in good standing are allowed in.
He sounds simultaneously heartbroken and seething with anger. “I’m pretty well a second-rate Mormon; I kind of sit in the back,” he said.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
Oh and I learned much about the false religion Mormonism in one afternoon in 1968. taught and warned by a Methodist lady 2 years before you were seduced into it...
Joseph Smith quoted what he said God in Heavne told him
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Where did you get that from
Source ???
When did Joey Smith ever say that either of the 2 things that he claims he saw were “God in Heaven” ???
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Sorry..
I will restate..
Jeff when you said in your Post #64 “Sorry, Nana, you may think you know a lot about the Church, but your comment there reveals that you really know very little.”
I felt you were mistaken, as I had mentioned that the Holy Spirit in Christianity has no body just as God the Father has no body...
We are told so by the LORD Jesus Christ Himself...
“God is Spirit” John 4:24
Hows that RM ???
Is that better ???
So, when He appears, I am sure, because I believe you are sincere in your love for Christ, you will do whatever He says, even if He says to go to the Temple.
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Oh Jeff Ive already been to the Temple...
I was in Jerusalem in 1988...
That is a good theory though since the LORD Jesus Christ is coming back to Israel to rule and reign there...
Much better.
Did he mean for them all to mystically join together into one entity without body parts or passion? No, He clearly (as His prayer goes on to say) meant for them to be united and one in purpose as He and the Father are one, and He even discusses that oneness and that glory that the two of them had before the world was.
Of course Christ created the Earth and this universe, He did so expressly at the command of His Father so His Father's children could be sent here to live in mortality and so Christ Himself could come and be offered on the cross to save them...us!
In Genesis they speak of that plurality when speaking of Admm and Eve's transgression and Satan's lie. Clearly Satan and the angels of Heaven were there before too, because the Old Testament indicates that they rebelled and were cast out.
Anyhow. God says in Genesis, that the man had become as one of "us". Who is the us if they are only one? The us is all three of them, God the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost, yes indeed all there, but also all three seperate and referred to by none less than God himself as being so.
He makes it clear that the lie Satan told was not, "Thou shalt become as the Gods knowing good and evil," which they did do according to God's own testimony, but that Satan's lie was, "thou shalt not surely die," which they did after being made mortal and getting cast out of the garden.
That's all right there in Genesis for all to read and it makes the point better than I can. Thank you for bringing it up.
Then back in the New Testament it makes it all the more clear at Christ's batism why the voice of God came out of Heaven at the same time the Holy Spirit descended seperately, and Christ was seperately in the water...all three seperate and distrinct. Also on the mount of transfiguration where again, God spoke, praising His Son when Peter James and John were with Him, and when Stephen the martyr was stoned, and as he died he cried out that he saw Jesus Christ sitting on the throne at the right hand of, "next" to God. He didn't say He saw Jesus as God the Father, he saw Him on the right hand next to God the Father...two distinct entities again.
Anyhow, that's all right there in the Bible, new Testament and Old.
And, OBTW, we were all there with them, because in Jeremiah we read where that Prophet is told that God knew him (Jeremiah) before he was formed in the belly, and ordained him a prophet in that pre-mortal existance. All of us were there and, as the Old Testament records, we all shouted for joy at the foundations of this Earth.
So, the evidence that explains both sets of scripture (because the Bible does not contradict itself) is clearly that they are one, one in purpose, and that there are three of them in the Godhead, The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (that's the us and the we), all three distinct and speperate as the scriptures testify on those numerous of occassions.
It makes clear what Christ said regarding their oneness, and makes clear what was said regarding them being seperate and Christ praying to the Father, and indicating that he came to do the Father's will, not His own.
Have a great evening, Nana.
As I have said many times, we may differ in interpretation, but we are joined in Christ, because He is my Lord and Savior, jsut as He is yours, and He will settle all differences like this when He comes in His glory, and I look forward to that day and pray for it to be hastened.
Of course Christ created the Earth and this universe, He did so expressly at the command of His Father
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Another good guess, Jeff...
But no...
There was no “Christ” in the beginning and there was no “Father” ...
The Second Person of the Trinity was the Word...The “Father” didnt command anyone...
The Word was equal with God as was the Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit...
Remember as you said that the LORD Jesus said “I and my Father are ONE”
He never said another part of God lorded it over Him...
Of course Christ created the Earth and this universe, He did so expressly at the command of His Father so His Father’s children could be sent here to live in mortality and so Christ Himself could come and be offered on the cross to save them...us!
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Gosh Jeff that is an interesting theory...
BVut God doesnt do things so roundabout...
He is direct and goes straight to the goal...
Why would He take the long way around when he can just fly across and over ???
Now these “children you mention ...where did they come from to be “sent here ???
I didnt comer from anywhere myself...I originated in the loins of Adam and then was conceived and born of my parents...
I never did live anywhere else...
Who are those people you seem to identify yourself with ???
I ask because thats not in the Christian Bible..
There were no humans until Adam...
and he was not until God gathered up dust and blew life into him on the 6th day...
Next came his wife Eve and then they had the twins Cain and Abel and then Seth ...
Im glad you set such store by the words of the LORD Jesus Christ but He only talked about Adam and never mentioned creating an Earth and Universe for your other people...
and Christ never came...
The Word, the Second Person of the Trinity came and became flesh and dwelt among men as Jesus, Emannuel, Salvation...
He makes it clear that the lie Satan told was not, “Thou shalt become as the Gods knowing good and evil,” which they did do according to God’s own testimony, but that Satan’s lie was, “thou shalt not surely die,” which they did after being made mortal and getting cast out of the garden.
That’s all right there in Genesis for all to read and it makes the point better than I can. Thank you for bringing it up.
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Yes that is interesting...
So are you saying that after Eve lied about what God had told them, the serpent agreed with her lie...
or did he tell a different lie ???
Was he agreeing to the part where she did tell the truth...
or was he ignoring that part ???
Either way, Eve wasnt interested in putting much importance in what God had to say...
and so God punished her sin by making childbearing painful...
and because she refused to obey God as her master, He made her husband master instead..
and as you pointed out Jesus shed His Blood on the Cross to save us and made men and women equal again because she now had a new husband the LORD Jesus Christ Himself..
To think she and we women could have had a much easier time of it if Adam had made sure his wife knew what God had commanded instead of just haphazardly passing on the commandments to her...
That shows right there that women must read the Bible for themselves and have a relationship with the LORD Jesus Christ for themselves...
so that they can get the info right from the source so to speak..
Thanks for pointing that out Jeffie...
That is interesting...
It also shows that a woman can be just as good or better than a man as POTUS...
She just needs the opportunity to learn for herself...
Its a pity that we have to put up with the liberal Willard Romney when we could have had the Conservative Michele Bachman...
or even Gov Sarah Palin...
Im sure the RM is very pleased with how well we are doing
:)
in Jeremiah we read where that Prophet is told that God knew him (Jeremiah) before he was formed in the belly, and ordained him a prophet in that pre-mortal existance
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Jeffie that is another good guess...
But no there is no mention of any pre-mortal existance in that scripture...Jeremiah 1:5
God just said He KNEW Jeremiah meaning He had the blueprint for Jeremiah’s future existance, his future which meant Jeremiah did not as yet exist when God thought of him..
Later in Jeremiah 1:5 God tells him “Before I formed you” meaning Jeremaih never existed until then...
There was no “pre-mortal existance” Jeffie...
Did you think there was for some reason ???
There is no mention of anything in the Bible...
IN THE BEGINNING Genesis 1:1 means just that..
Also, Christ Himself speaks of being with the Father before the foundation of the earth, and the glory they shared.
So, despite your condescending attitude with your cotninuous "Jeffie" references, which again, Nana, IMHO, is not really very becoming to you as a Christian, the Bible is filled with these references and the various denominations interpret them diferently (as you just shared your own), or do not interpret them at all, clainming them simply to ne the mysterious of God.
We of course feel that it points clearly to God the Father, His Son, and the Holy Ghost being involved with all of us as God the Father's children, whom Paul claims we surely are, for ages and ages before this earth was ever created.
Clearly, you and yours interpret it differently. Which is fine. In the end, Christ Himself will reveal all truth to His own because Jesus, Son of God the Father, and Him crucified, atoning for the sins of the world is the essential doctrine.
Have a great evening...gotta get the shut eye necessary for work tomorrow.
Sorry, Nana, the Bible is filled with references to pre-mortal life. Including Jeremiah,whom God say He knew before he was born, and ordained him there...not just “thought of him”, the Sons of God who shouted for joy at the creation of the earth, the rebellion by Satan and his followers for which they were cast out, Lucifer, Son of the Morning, fallen from Heaven.
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Oh youre talking about angels...
OK
But angels arent human they never were...
and and they dont become human..
There never was a pre-mortal existance for humans...
Jeremiah 1:5 doesnt mention it and theres nowhere in the Bible that does...
Satan was Lucifer an angel..
Satan was never human..
angels are not mortal...
they cant die..
theyre created beings..
Meanwhile Jeffie Jeremaiah never existed until he was concieved in the womb of his mother...
It takes 2 Earthly human parents to create a new human baby...
we all start out here on Earth...
again where do you get these strange ideas from ???
Jeffie maybe if you actually quoted a scripture from the Christian Bible we can look at it and try to figure out just why you feel that angels are humans..
Just give us the scripture reference and the words in the version you are reading...
We have scholars in the original Greek and Hebrew here who can help you with the problem...
Cheerio for now..
Got to go work on my PHD this morning...
Im building a fence around my garden...
:)
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