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Judge Should go to Jail, Not Pastor Who Taught Discipline of Children!
Email Subscription From Dr. Boys | June 2, 2012 | Don Boys, Ph.D.

Posted on 06/02/2012 7:46:09 PM PDT by John Leland 1789

Recently a Wisconsin judge seriously overreached her authority when she sentenced Philip Caminite, pastor of Aleitheia Bible Church to two years in prison for teaching his flock to discipline their children! Such illegal judicial actions are one reason many of us think many judges rank alongside used car salesmen, and I don’t mean to insult used car salesmen by the comparison. I suggest that Judge Maryann Sumi might improve her status by selling cars, not sending preachers to prison.

The pastor is to be supervised for six years after serving his time and is forbidden to have any contact with his church and to have no leadership in any church. So we have a court stomping on the constitutional rights of a preacher and telling him where he can go to church and forbidding him to follow his calling of preaching. I wonder if Maryann has ever read the First Amendment. If this case stands, it will be a Damocles sword hanging over the head of every preacher, priest, and rabbi in the nation. In fact, every church leader should preach on this subject next Sunday, and end with “No judge or any other official will tell me what to preach. Never, never, never.” Assistant District Attorney Shelly Rusch wanted the preacher to be sentenced to five years in prison and 15 years of extended supervision, calling him "the spoke in the wheel of this conspiracy." Shelly is as confused or radical as Maryann since the pastor was teaching what true preachers have taught for centuries. Sorry dear, not a conspiracy. Shelly should be back in her kitchen baking cookies. The judged said that the sentence, in part, was “intended to send a message that child abuse will not be tolerated and to prevent Caminiti from once again teaching members of his church to spank their children with wooden objects to cure them of selfishness.” The judge is not thinking or is skewed in her thinking since teaching people to discipline their children is not child abuse. In fact, I have always taught that parents who refuse to reasonably discipline their children (involving spanking for rebellion and disobedience) are child abusers!

Recent studies in the U.S. and Sweden prove that sparing the rod does spoil the child. Sweet little Johnny, without discipline, will become Big Bad John. Another study published in the Akron Law Review a couple years ago examined criminal records and found that children raised without spanking are much more likely to be involved in crime. Many anti-spanking “experts” have seen the light while the Wisconsin judge, prosecutor and the jury are still stumbling in the darkness.

The next time I have a speaking engagement in Wisconsin I will be sure to instruct my listeners to properly discipline their children. Maryann and Shelly are invited to attend and sit in the amen corner. They may even “hit the sawdust trail.” The preacher was not guilty of abusing a child; he was sent to prison for teaching parents to discipline their children! Since when does a judge, any judge, on any court have the authority to tell a preacher what he can teach? The judge is an idiot or a radical ideologue. Maryann whined that the preacher showed no indications of being remorseful or repentant, but then he should not be since he was teaching the truth. Maryann refused the preacher the courtesy of being free during the appeal, a privilege that is often given the most heinous criminals. Many judges think their rulings from the bench can make something just when it is unjust! It may be legal but it is not just. Many judges stand in front of a mirror awed with themselves in their black sheets indicating they have a messianic complex. They seem to be waiting for a vacancy in the Trinity! It is common for them to think they can walk on water, maybe explaining why so many judges are all wet.

I am convinced the real child abusers are incompetent, intolerant, and insensitive judges who send parents to jail and place well-adjusted children in state homes that are often rampant with sodomy, drugs, violence, etc. Of course, the state homes are licensed! There is no doubt that some judges are child abusers.

Prosecuting attorneys, determined to “cut another notch on their guns,” callously prosecute preachers and parents without regard to what is best for the children and, therefore, are child abusers.

Judges, police officers, and prosecutors along with the other child abusers—should go to jail! Yes, I know that jails are a bad environment filled with killers, rapists, drug dealers, child molesters, the scum of the earth, but I don’t think the judges, prosecuting attorneys, and zealous social workers will corrupt the inmates much further!

Pastors had better come out of the closet! March on the Bastille! Mount the barricades. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition; the ammunition being courage, commitment, conscience, and convictions. Your children and freedom to preach God’s message are in the balance!

Let’s kick officials out of office who abuse the rights of Christian leaders, and bring them before the bar of justice for their attacks on church and home leadership. In my opinion, the preacher should have told the judge she was out of order and her ruling would be totally ignored and she could hear him preach next Sunday at the Aleitheia Bible Church. Of course, he would go to jail immediately for contempt; but then, of course, he would be guilty of contempt of court, even though totally justified.

Surely he will be set free when his case comes before sensible people and he should sue the prosecutor, the judge, and the county for religious discrimination, kidnapping, interference with Christian worship, and anything else that can be thrown in.

Moreover, this is a perfect example that cries for jury nullification, but then, that’s another day.

Copyright 2012, Don Boys, Ph.D.

(Dr. Don Boys is a former member of the Indiana House of Representatives, author of 14 books, frequent guest on television and radio talk shows, and wrote columns for USA Today for 8 years. Three years ago, the second edition of ISLAM: America's Trojan Horse! was published, and his new eBook, The God Haters is available for $9.99 from www.thegodhaters.com. These columns go to newspapers, magazines, television, and radio stations. His other web sites are www.cstnews.com and www.Muslimfact.com. Contact Don for an interview or talk show.)


TOPICS: Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: chat; discipline; jail; judge; pastor
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1 posted on 06/02/2012 7:46:21 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: John Leland 1789
Don Boys, Ph.D.

I don't imagine that Dr. Boys earned his Ph.D in the use of paragraphs, punctuation and coherency.

2 posted on 06/02/2012 7:55:36 PM PDT by Uncle Slayton
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To: John Leland 1789

Spanking children with wooden objects hardly seems likely to be an issue we all embrace. This oiece is a bit overwrought.


3 posted on 06/02/2012 8:00:17 PM PDT by cajungirl
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To: cajungirl
"Spanking children with wooden objects hardly seems likely to be an issue we all embrace. This oiece is a bit overwrought."

We all certainly don't embrace the same things on FR.

4 posted on 06/02/2012 8:06:29 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: John Leland 1789

I wonder what what he would do to people who teach the crap of the Koran?


5 posted on 06/02/2012 8:14:13 PM PDT by factmart
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To: John Leland 1789

I wonder what what he would do to people who teach the crap of the Koran?


6 posted on 06/02/2012 8:29:28 PM PDT by factmart
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To: John Leland 1789

So, a preacher who teaches the Bible, wherein it infers that sparing the rod spoils the child, cannot advise paddling an errant child?
Is the judge prepared to try Biblical figures, such as Isahia or Jesus in abstentia for their teachings or the tenets of their faith?
Perhaps the judge will seek to ban the Bible for teaching what she opposes.


7 posted on 06/02/2012 8:31:40 PM PDT by Thumper1960 (A modern so-called "Conservative" is a shadow of a wisp of a vertebrate human being.)
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To: Thumper1960
"So, a preacher who teaches the Bible, wherein it infers that sparing the rod spoils the child, cannot advise paddling an errant child? Is the judge prepared to try Biblical figures, such as Isahia or Jesus in abstentia for their teachings or the tenets of their faith? Perhaps the judge will seek to ban the Bible for teaching what she opposes."

Thank you. This is precisely Dr. Boys greater point.

That judge is saying, in effect, if society is brainwashed to not like what the Bible teaches, those who continue to teach the the Bible will be imprisoned.

8 posted on 06/02/2012 8:41:09 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: Thumper1960
Was he arrested for saying parents should spank their kids? Or was he arrested because he encouraged his followers to beat 18 month olds with wooden dowels for crying?
9 posted on 06/02/2012 8:49:30 PM PDT by icwhatudo (This is not a choice between Romney&Reagan-Its between Romney & most radical leftist Pres in history)
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To: Uncle Slayton

Sumi is that leftist witch who apparently sees little wrong in making blatantly political rulings as she has done throughout the Walker recall debacle. I just hope that once the recall effort is defeated, she will be impeached or otherwise removed. Her decisions make a mockery of the law.


10 posted on 06/02/2012 8:57:45 PM PDT by Postman
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To: icwhatudo

Beat or thwack a misbehaving child? Did the pastor state: ‘’Beat your infants’’ or was that action of a parent? Common sense, people.
Common sense.


11 posted on 06/02/2012 9:03:55 PM PDT by Thumper1960 (A modern so-called "Conservative" is a shadow of a wisp of a vertebrate human being.)
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To: Thumper1960
Yes...he did.

"They described using wooden dowels and wooden spoons on the bare skin of children, starting as young as two months old."

""Police added: 'Phil expressed his belief that the Bible dictates the use of a rod over a hand to punish children 'He stated that children only a few months old are 'worthy' of the rod and that by 'one and a half months,' a child is old enough to be spanked."

Beating 2 month olds with wooden sticks is sick. Common sense, people! Common sense!

12 posted on 06/02/2012 9:11:28 PM PDT by icwhatudo (This is not a choice between Romney&Reagan-Its between Romney & most radical leftist Pres in history)
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To: John Leland 1789

Only the beginning. Europe and Canada are already imprisoning preachers and homeschool parents.


13 posted on 06/02/2012 9:15:11 PM PDT by stinkerpot65 (Global warming is a Marxist lie.)
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To: icwhatudo

I think that Liberals are worthy of incarceration in mental institutions and that those same liberals, failing successful treatments of their illness, should be executed.
Now, if someone does indeed blow the brains of an unreconstructed liberal all over their 0bamao campaign postered walls, am I guilty of their death?
A churchgoer who does everything preached by their pastor, even following the more graphic examples written in the Book, is either weakminded or a complete sheep.
Common sense, dude.......common sense.


14 posted on 06/02/2012 9:22:00 PM PDT by Thumper1960 (A modern so-called "Conservative" is a shadow of a wisp of a vertebrate human being.)
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To: Thumper1960

Ditto what Thumper said. Although I am at this point pretty much good with laws laid out in the Old Testament.


15 posted on 06/02/2012 9:54:07 PM PDT by ciaocotc
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To: Hunton Peck; Diana in Wisconsin; P from Sheb; Shady; DonkeyBonker; Wisconsinlady; JPG; bushwon; ...

WI Ping


16 posted on 06/02/2012 9:55:49 PM PDT by knittnmom (Save the earth! It's the only planet with chocolate!)
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To: Uncle Slayton

Perhaps Boys bought his PhD from the same diploma mill as James White.


17 posted on 06/02/2012 10:04:24 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: John Leland 1789

If the pastor was preaching murder you surely wouldn’t advocate a first amendment right to practice murder would you? Child abuse can not be overlooked just because the abuser has a religious belief. Just as polygamy has been outlawed and other various types of practices.


18 posted on 06/02/2012 10:36:21 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Uncle Slayton

Amen


19 posted on 06/02/2012 10:37:15 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: icwhatudo

Thank you.

anyone who encourages spanking a 112/ month old baby is evil.


20 posted on 06/02/2012 10:41:14 PM PDT by cajungirl
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To: John Leland 1789

“A Black Earth pastor was found guilty Wednesday of eight counts of conspiracy to commit child abuse for advocating the use of wooden rods to spank children as young as two months.

A Dane County jury took only about two hours to find Philip Caminiti, 54, pastor of the Aleitheia Bible Church, guilty of having instructed members of his flock to punish children as young as infants and toddlers by striking them on the bare buttocks with wood dowels in order to teach them to behave correctly, fitting the church’s literal interpretation of the Bible.”

This is an obscene reading of the vibe. People like this try and use the ‘spare the rod and spoil the child’ argument. The problem is that they do not understand the meaning of the words. The rod is the rod of justice which every ruler held in their hand as an indication of their position not a beating tool. The admonish is to teach your children well to train them in the Lord’s ways...NOT to beat them into submission. That type of submission is found in things like Sharia law not the Bible.

The bigger problem is that so many ‘churches’ have folks leading them with NO knowledge of the original languages or history of the area. They miss much because they are ignorant and refuse to learn

This blog suffers from the same ignorance


21 posted on 06/02/2012 10:44:09 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Thumper1960

You do not understand what ‘the rod’ is. The rod is a symbol of leadership and judgement-— of wisdom. You can see the rod in the hands of pharaohs. Perhaps you should go back to the original languages and learn some before making such ignorant comments


22 posted on 06/02/2012 10:47:12 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Nifster

Actually, the word for rod is the same as frond, as in palm frond. While the spare the rod....etc. quote is not ‘’Biblical’’, the sentiment is.
Now, you may be familiar with the adage that you attract better with honey than vinegar. Try it sometime and save your judgemental BS for someone who might care. In other words, if you wish to actually influence me, instead of puffing your chest out and trying act superior, try it without the arrogance. Otherwise, muck off, jake.
Change a couple letters in that original language and you’ll get an idea of what I really meant to type.
Got it, genius?


23 posted on 06/02/2012 11:05:57 PM PDT by Thumper1960 (A modern so-called "Conservative" is a shadow of a wisp of a vertebrate human being.)
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To: Thumper1960

Oh sure I get it... you too prove the adage that you attract better with honey than vinegar. You spent your time accusing me of doing exactly what you did in your post. And I do not need to find some cutsie way to avoid foul language,

Now do you have it genius


24 posted on 06/02/2012 11:30:09 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: icwhatudo

Yes, what he said was sick but not illegal to express your opinion of what the Bible says. He is very wrong and ignorant of child development.

But he still has a right to his belief and shouldn’t be put in prison for it. It would be another thing if he was actually beating a child but here we are getting into a slippery slope. My parents took a strap to my brothers and would have been put in jail with today’s insane intrusion into raising children.

My brothers deserved it and turned out to be wonderful, productive, responsible people with no children out of wedlock. They were never abused—just swatted and it did them good. (like the Bible says). They were never spanked until they were four or older though.


25 posted on 06/02/2012 11:33:04 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: Nifster

Oh, grow up.
You don’t like my OP, send freepmail. You want to make a show of your doctor of divinity knowledge, post it. Just do it without the ‘’I know what IS and you are ignorant’’ crap. You get slammed in return, don’t cry about it. Just move on.
Maybe, if mummsy and pappy had not spared the rod when you were growing up.....
Now, get the funkychicken outta my face, Nipsy.


26 posted on 06/02/2012 11:39:54 PM PDT by Thumper1960 (A modern so-called "Conservative" is a shadow of a wisp of a vertebrate human being.)
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To: Uncle Slayton

AFAIK not all PhD’s took creative writing & literature. Oh I had boss a Ph.D. (in microbiology & immulogy) boss who is worse in writing...


27 posted on 06/03/2012 12:36:17 AM PDT by hamboy
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To: John Leland 1789; Uncle Slayton; cajungirl; factmart; Thumper1960; icwhatudo; Postman; ...
May 26, 2011:

Wisconsin Church Members Charged With Abusing Infants

The pastor and seven members of a small church in central Wisconsin have been charged with using wooden rods to spank infants as young as 2 months old for "being emotional, grumpy or crying," the Dane County Sheriff's office said.

The Aleitheia Bible Church, in the town of Black Earth, was started in 2006 with a donation in the range of $500,000-$600,000 from Bob and Lori Wick of nearby Mazomanie, according to a news release from the sheriff's office.

Lori Wick is the author of almost three dozen historical Christian novels with more than five million books in print, according to her Amazon profile. Reached by AOL News today by telephone at their home, Bob Wick said they "have no comment" on the case.

Publicists at Lori Wick's publisher, Harvest House Publishers, did not immediately respond to emails from AOL News today for comment.

Philip Caminiti, left, the pastor of Aleitheia Bible Church in Black Earth, Wis., and his brother, John Caminiti, 45, have been charged with a dozen counts of child abuse for allegedly using wooden rods to punish children. The investigation into the Aleitheia Bible Church began last November, when former members contacted authorities with concerns about how children were being treated, according to the sheriff's office.

Six church members pleaded innocent to charges of child abuse during an appearance Thursday in Dane County Circuit Court. They were booked and released.

Pastor Philip Caminiti, 53, and his brother, John Caminiti, 45, were charged with a dozen counts of child abuse last week and also pleaded innocent.

The victims included 12 children ranging in age from infancy to 6 years old, according to the sheriff's office.

"During interviews with detectives, Phil expressed his belief that the Bible dictates the use of a rod over a hand to punish children. He stated that children only a few months old are 'worthy' of the rod and that by 'one and a half months,' a child is old enough to be spanked," according to the sheriff's office release.

"Throughout the investigation, the church members were open with detectives about their 'Spare the rod, spoil the child' philosophy. They described using wooden dowels and wooden spoons on the bare skin of children, starting as young as 2 months old," the sheriff's office said.

"If you spank early and it is done right, then kids will be happy and obedient," Philip Caminiti said, according to the criminal complaint.

According to the sheriff's office, the dowels were described as being 12-18 inches long with a diameter about the size of a quarter. The parents told detectives that "redness and bruising" were the "common effects of the spankings."

"One person described the children being emotional, grumpy or crying as behaviors that would constitute a spanking with a dowel," according to the sheriff's office.

Three sets of parents are among the six others charged, including two of Philip Caminiti's children and their spouses: Matthew Caminiti, 27, and his wife, Alina, 24; and Maria J. Stephenson, 29, and her husband, Timothy, 28. Also charged are Andrea L. Wick, 26, and Timothy J. Wick, 27.

The children often were punished when they cried or failed to sit still during church services, a former church member told authorities. "Phil was very strict about children being quiet during church," the complaint states.

John Caminiti told investigators in November that he does not allow his family to communicate with people outside his religious beliefs and has punished his wife and son by confining them to their rooms until they corrected their disobedience, according to the Wisconsin State Journal.

Attorney Jeffrey W. Nichols, who represents Alina Caminiti, described his client as a "caring mother who loves her children," according to the Minneapolis Star Tribune.

"I believe it is important to note that the children have never been removed from her or her husband's care despite these allegations and despite some unfair characterizations of her," he said.

All the children of the parents charged are remaining in their homes and the families are working with social workers from Dane County Human Services, the sheriff's office said.

I'm not going to take an MSM news article at face value, but it does paint a little different picture than the one presented by Dr. Boys.

Spanking a 1-1/2 month old infant doesn't work for me. Ever.

28 posted on 06/03/2012 2:29:21 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good-Pope Leo XIII)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Perhaps Boys bought his PhD from the same diploma mill as James White.

Boys has a well-deserved and earned Ph. D., and his Biblical discussion of child discipline is correct and spiritual in nature. Here is a summary of his credentials:

Dr. Don Boys was born in West Virginia, and received his early education there. Following his salvation as a teen, he preached on the streets of Huntington, in the jails, parks and missions. He entered Moody Bible Institute immediately after high school, was married and continued his education at Tennessee Temple College, Immanuel College and Heritage Baptist University where he earned his Ph.D. While an evangelist and Christian school administrator, Boys was elected to the Indiana House of Representatives, and was identified by the media as the "most conservative member of the General Assembly." (See further details above.)

Don Boys, Ph. D.

If James White is the one I am thinking of, he has two masters (M. A., Th. M.) and two doctorates (Th. D., D. Min.) from widely recognized evangelical seminaries. Your estimate of their qualifications does not speak well of yours.

The readers of this article might well take heed of the wise Solomon's advice:

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Prov. 23:13,14)

This is not metaphorical. It is literal, practical, and effective means to cause oppositional defiance of the child to cease as early as possible. Trying to discipline the child with your mouth is like trying to drive your car with the horn. It doesn't work.

The rod of correction may be the only method he/she can exercise good reasoning choose salvation and eternal life, rather than condemnation and eternity in Hell.

29 posted on 06/03/2012 2:36:58 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul.)
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To: markomalley; John Leland 1789; Uncle Slayton; cajungirl; factmart; Thumper1960; icwhatudo; ...

Thanks for the research.

So in other words, not only is Don Boys, Ph.D. illiterate, unable to construct a paragraph or convey a coherent thought in writing, but he is also a liar.


30 posted on 06/03/2012 3:16:41 AM PDT by Uncle Slayton
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To: imardmd1

“Boys has a well-deserved and earned Ph. D.”

If that is the case, why is it that Dr. Boys has such difficulty with constructing paragraphs, using proper punctuation, spelling words correctly and telling the truth?


31 posted on 06/03/2012 3:21:24 AM PDT by Uncle Slayton
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To: knittnmom

I couldn’t agree more. Jail Maryann Sumi.

What really frosts me is that this judge did even more than scold this Pastor and throw him in jail, she also has prevented him from earning a living in his chosen profession for 6+ years. Or is it even longer? It’s a little unclear in this article.

So her order violates his:
Freedom of Religion
Freedom of Speech
Right to pursuit of happiness
Right to work
Freedom to assemble

I’m sure that there are some other rights in there that she violated too.

Don’t interpret my response into support of hitting kids with weapons. I think the idea of whacking a child with a wooden spoon is appalling; but I doubt that it would hurt the child unless the parent turned the spoon into a stabbing weapon.


32 posted on 06/03/2012 4:25:40 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: afraidfortherepublic

The issue of spanking is an emotional one and unlikely to be resolved soon.

Years ago I remember watching my neighbor moving into a house across the street. There was no fence and her four preschool children remained outside in the yard while she was arranging things inside. About once every two minutes, I’m not kidding, she would rush out and spank a child who had tried to venture into the street. I thought to myself this is ridiculous - - - how can it possibly work? But after an hour there were no attempts to leave the yard. The little brats had learned an important lesson. After that day I never criticized her methods.


33 posted on 06/03/2012 4:56:40 AM PDT by Liberty Wins (Newt --named after Isaac Newton?)
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To: John Leland 1789

Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.

Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.


34 posted on 06/03/2012 5:10:18 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Uncle Slayton
“Boys has a well-deserved and earned Ph. D.” (from imardmd1)

If that is the case, why is it that Dr. Boys has such difficulty with constructing paragraphs, using proper punctuation, spelling words correctly and telling the truth? (from Uncle Slayton)

Well, Uncle, I have only written and published my own B. S. and Ph. D. theses, as well as many technical papers and reports. Even so, one of my my employers required all professionals to be instructed in writing and editing by professional journalists -- regardless of past writing history. Having Bob Burger's inscription of being one of his best students, on the flyleaf of his well-known text "How To Write So People Can Understand You," I feel competent to ask you what your qualifications are. So, what are they? (I will warn you that one of the things we learned in these advanced courses is that the typical high school English teacher is usually quite incapable of teaching useful, saleable communication prose.)

Note that in the article, Don Boys has written plenty of publishably formulated columns: "These columns go to newspapers, magazines, television, and radio stations."

In this column, did you find any other mistyped word than the word "judged"?

I found no trouble anywhere in the column in following his thought. What is your problem in the way he chose to punctuate or divide the thoughts?

And where in this article do you find Dr. Boys lying to you?

It seems as though you have a bigger problem with the philosophy of his Biblical applications than you do with the mechanics of his writing skills. Why don't you give us a link to some of your published work? That might be interesting --

Respectfully --

(P. S.: You might want to put a comma between the words "correctly" and "and" in your comment quoted above.)

35 posted on 06/03/2012 5:55:46 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul.)
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To: John Leland 1789

There’s got to be more to this story or else this pastor had the worst lawyer in creation.


36 posted on 06/03/2012 6:01:46 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: HarleyD
Pro 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.
Pro 23:14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

It is true that the word as translated here is "strike," which carries the inference of to strike once. However, it is rendered as "beat" as in the KJV, ASV, and NASB where striking more than once may be meant. Either is permissible from the tense and voice, but the practical application is striking more than once. Moreover, the KJV word "correction" means more than merely a negative action, it means a satisfactory and positive response, and is a better translation here than "discipline."

But in raising four children, who themselves are/have raised 19 children, I have not seen that one stripe does not usually carry the discipline into action.

As a trainer, one finds out that you must break the will (NOT the spirit) of the individual being disciplined. One stroke can not do that, the first time.

Once the individual recognizes that you mean business, and that the strokes will be continued until compliance is achieved, discipline is starting to take place.

The next lesson to be taught is that the same procedure will take place consistently each and every time the same infraction occurs, without deviation and without remorse; compliance then will have begun.

When behavior patterns begin to appear that cause the rod to be produced, and the child sees the rod thus ceases and desists without further opposition, compliance is established without beating .

When a conduct of automatic correct response becomes habitual, compliance becomes obedience. By this time, a warning look is enough.

One who has learned to love one's parent has learned to dread disrespecting, disobeying, or disappointing that parent. It is a precursor to learning to love Our Father in Heaven.

The failure of the parent to lovingly use and respect the rod fails to prepare his/her child for responsible adult life, and reeks of misplaced compassion.

Ask a United States Marine if this is not so.

37 posted on 06/03/2012 7:08:41 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways.)
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To: Nifster
You do not understand what ‘the rod’ is. The rod is a symbol of leadership and judgement-— of wisdom. You can see the rod in the hands of pharaohs. Perhaps you should go back to the original languages and learn some before making such ignorant comments

It is you who do not understand, either the language or the hermeneutics of these passages in Solomon's Proverbs. The Scripture is revealed by God and is His non-negotiable instruction. Normal interpretation is basic. This passage is basic. Literal interpretation is normal. Literal interpretation contains both literal and figurative-literal language. Figurative and/or allegorical interpretation (such as the one you propose) is not normal. The passage referred to (Prov. 13:24) has only one primary interpretation, only one meaning. it has only one sense. The rule is that when the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense.

The grammatical sense of the word "rod" is "shebet" in Hebrew, and is simple -- it means a stick. This spare-the-rod passage is in literal language and is to be translated and interpreted literally. It is taken as a direct order to a real parent from The God in clear terms of dealing with disobedience:

"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

"Betimes" means "early" -- immediately after the infraction, while the lesson may still be learned.

There's more to this, but your application is not a correct interpretation.

Here's another passage, with a literal interpretation but with figurative-literal language:

"In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them." (Prov. 14:3)

38 posted on 06/03/2012 9:45:20 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways.)
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To: Thumper1960

Your anger betrays you. And by the by you really ought to check your Strong’s.

Maybeif you prayed for me you will find some peace


39 posted on 06/03/2012 1:13:26 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Thumper1960

What I note with interest is that many of the ‘former leftists’ like to yell louder at people who have been conservative for much much longer than they. It is almost like former smokers who think the rest of the world must see things their way.

This is an open forum on religion. Those who post do so, I would hope, with a good heart.

Anger most often masks fear


40 posted on 06/03/2012 1:16:21 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: markomalley

Exactly. You posted the full article. I posted the paragraphs that dealt with the jury’s finding. The truth is not every ‘church’ teaches God’s word. Just because one ‘thinks’ they are called to ministry does not make it so. I find these self-proclaimed groups often to be really very dangerous


41 posted on 06/03/2012 1:19:14 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: imardmd1

And the very word you want to quote is indeed a scepter a mark of authority. No doubt you would apply the same logic to the parsing of ‘Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me.” Nice try but....not


42 posted on 06/03/2012 1:29:54 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: imardmd1

Simply due to the fact that a person has written columns that go to newspapers, magazines, television, and radio stations does not assert that he is equipped with skills required to coherently convey a thought or that he earn better that a C- on in a eight grade English Composition class.

For example, in the first sentence of the column, Dr. Boys reveals that he is unable to correctly spell Philip Caminiti’s name correctly.

His second paragraph begins with informing the reader that Caminiti will be supervised once he is released from prison and ends with his belief that parents who do not spank their children are child abusers.

From that point, Boys continues his rant, rambling from one thought to another abusing the exclamation mark as if it were a Caminiti parishioner’s two month old baby wetting her diaper.


43 posted on 06/03/2012 1:31:39 PM PDT by Uncle Slayton
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To: Nifster

That’s why I always try to fact-check blog post or email article before I post it. I agree with the Biblical precept of not sparing the rod. But against a 6-month old infant? Posting advocacy for such makes all of us look foolish.


44 posted on 06/03/2012 4:20:30 PM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good-Pope Leo XIII)
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To: Nifster
And the very word you want to quote is indeed a scepter a mark of authority. No doubt you would apply the same logic to the parsing of ‘Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me.” Nice try but....not

The word "shebet" As defined in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible defines it in English, and shows the usages in the AV:

shay'-bet
From an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, that is, (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan: - X correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe.

Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible gives the usages as: dart, 1; pen,1; rod, 34; sceptre, 10, staff, 2; tribe, 141.

Genesius's Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures yields six meanings with their related use texts:

1. a staff, stick, rod -- used for beating or striking (Is. 10:15, 14:5); and chastening (Prov. 10:13, 13:24, 22:8
2. a shepherd's rod, a crook (Lev.27:32, Ps. 23:4)
3. the sceptre of a king (Gen. 49:10 etc.)
4. a tribe of the Israelites, so-called from the sceptre of the leader or prince of the tribe (Ex. 28:21, Jud. 21:2) (etc.)
5. a measuring rod (Ps. 74:2, etc.) 6. a spear (2 Sam. 18:14)(dart in AV, lance in DRB)

=======

The Hebrew word can be interpreted as "sceptre" in English, but not in this context of Prov. 13:24, where a literal interpretation is intended and demanded. The correct English word for this context is "rod" which the translators of AV, ASV, RSV, NASB, DRB, NIV, and others choose. No translator has selected "sceptre" as related to this passage. Your tack of trying to reinterpret this passage as a metaphor of exercising rulership is contrary not only to common sense, but to eminent commentators, of whom Matthew Henry exemplifies:

Proverbs 13:24
Note, 1. To the education of children in that which is good there is necessary a due correction of them for what is amiss; every child of ours is a child of Adam, and therefore has that foolishness bound up in its heart which calls for rebuke, more or less, the rod and reproof which give wisdom. Observe, It is his rod that must be used, the rod of a parent, directed by wisdom and love, and designed for good, not the rod of a servant.
2. It is good to begin betimes with the necessary restraints of children from that which is evil, before vicious habits are confirmed. The branch is easily bent when it is tender.
3. Those really hate their children, though they pretend to be fond of them, that do not keep them under a strict discipline, and by all proper methods, severe ones when gentle ones will not serve, make them sensible of their faults and afraid of offending. They abandon them to their worst enemy, to the most dangerous disease, and therefore hate them. Let this reconcile children to the correction their good parents give them; it is from love, and for their good. (see Heb. 12:7-9)

======

What you need to realize is that this passage is literal in interpretation, literal in language, and when the parent needs to use force if necessary to obtain compliance, he is to beat the child with a stick until compliance is obtained. Do you insist that one is to literally beat the child with a king's mace? or to beat him with a tribe of Israel? or with a spear shaft or measuring rod (well, maybe)?

The point is made that the Scripture as interpreted means exactly what The LORD wants the writer to say to you in your language, and not what you seemingly want it to say.

Now, regarding "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me" -- the rod of the shepherd is used exactly as intended -- to beat the erring sheep back into the way. It is known that an obstinately disobedient lamb is likely to have its leg deliberately broken by the shepherd. The result is that the lamb cannot run away, but will be carried by the shepherd until the leg heals. The lamb will never leave the shepherd again. Sometimes severe methods are needed for oppositional defiance, that it never be allowed to become habitual.

In the figurative-literal sense, God does correct his children by chastening through consequences, illnesses, or other calamities as a rod of correction. In this sense, He may also use His Word as a rod of chastening. The true believer, who errs and is corrected by the the Master through earned consequences permitted by him, finds comfort knowing that the Master's attention is ever on and for the welfare of his children. If you have never received chastening at His hand, then you are not his child. Hebrews 12:8 calls such a one something else.

But in the case of a child, the parent is assigned by God the chore of exercising literal, corporal chastening as needed, and the Scriptural mode is by a literal rod fitted to the child's size and sensitivity. But this needs to start early, much earlier than the atheistic child-behavior theorists want to acknowledge.

The point is made. If you haven't gotten it and admitted it, others will. You cannot mix Dr. Spock and God's Word and come up with a Christian child believer-disciple.

45 posted on 06/03/2012 5:22:04 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways.)
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To: markomalley

exactly.


46 posted on 06/03/2012 5:49:24 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: imardmd1

There is nothing in the Bible that says God would have you beat your child. You totally ignored the usage of rod within the context of the twenty-third Psalm. You may not pick and choose single instances one must build scripture upon scripture.

Interestingly enough I raised my children very successfully by teaching them in a consistent and Christian manner and never once did I have to beat them with a rod. You can beat your children if you so choose. In the end we will both find who is correct.


47 posted on 06/03/2012 5:55:07 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Uncle Slayton
Simply due to the fact that a person has written columns that go to newspapers, magazines, television, and radio stations does not assert that he is equipped with skills required to coherently convey a thought or that he earn better that a C- on in a eight grade English Composition class.

I think it says something when he is published and more of his work is demanded. Are you judging content or form? Perhaps it has occurred to you that to be read, you must write to a public that feeds on a sixth-grade reading level. As did J. D. Salinger with "The Catcher in the Rye" as well as many short stories, novellas, and the like. BTW, the KJV fog index is on about the same level. In this article, Dr. Boys was able to express his ideas adequately to be clearly understood. However, if you have complaints, you might write to him and give him your thoughts on this. Here in FR, just trying to drag him down with ancillary and immaterial non-observations won't be very profitable, seems to me.

For example, in the first sentence of the column, Dr. Boys reveals that he is unable to correctly spell Philip Caminiti’s name correctly.

Or perhaps he was given an incorrect spelling from one of his resources. But I notice that he did OK on the rest of the words as found in the dictionary. However, in your first sentence above, did you mean "eighth" or was "eight" good enough to catch your meaning? And it might be more polished to say "in an eighth grade English composition class."

His second paragraph begins with informing the reader that Caminiti will be supervised once he is released from prison and ends with his belief that parents who do not spank their children are child abusers.

Yes, you did notice that this very lo-o-ong paragraph was a result of our poster failing to transcribe the paragraph divisions found in the original -- that was not approved by Dr. Boys, I suppose. If you had checked that out, you would have seen just a little difference in structure. The link to one better source is http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Opinion/112767-2012-06-02-judge-should-go-to-jail-not-pastor-who-taught-discipline.htm

From that point, Boys continues his rant, rambling from one thought to another abusing the exclamation mark as if it were a Caminiti parishioner’s two month old baby wetting her diaper.

From another ranter, seems like. It looks that you just don't like the way this man parts his hair, but can't really find something in his theorem that you can put your finger on except his spelling and punctuation. Keep on!! I'm having fun! Give me more ammunition! I like exclamation points!

(Just pulling your leg a bit--)

48 posted on 06/03/2012 6:22:46 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways.)
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To: Nifster

Doctor of Divinity, Doctor of Psychology.....perhaps a seer, as well?
Yeah, i am used to having my past thrown at me. Nothing new, there.
It simply means that I have experienced what you can only read about in a book or a magazine. Those who have been there know better than those who can only cast conjecture and wild imaginings.


49 posted on 06/03/2012 7:06:14 PM PDT by Thumper1960 (A modern so-called "Conservative" is a shadow of a wisp of a vertebrate human being.)
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To: Nifster
There is nothing in the Bible that says God would have you beat your child.

There is, and you have missed it. You need to read Proverbs through from a version that is in the literal equivalent mode. (Prov. 10:13, 13:24,22:15,23:13,14) The verse that stands out is "Thou shalt beat him with a rod, and shall deliver him from hell." Your children's effective salvation was involved with this system.

You totally ignored the usage of rod within the context of the twenty-third Psalm.

I did not. I have many times been chastened by The LORD in ways you probably have not yet contemplated, but I am comforted that it is He that chastens me for my profit, that I might be a partaker of his holiness.

You may not pick and choose single instances one must build scripture upon scripture.

I did not, and gave the reasons why, including related passages. Why don't you calm down and read them, as well as other comments I made on this article?

Interestingly enough I raised my children very successfully by teaching them in a consistent and Christian manner and never once did I have to beat them with a rod.

You never resorted to any corporal punishment whatsoever? Either they were sinless or somebody else had to do it for you, maybe. If you never chastened them, you missed out on your main chore as a parent. If you never used the rod, you ignored God's clear non-debatable instruction. If you ever used hand spanking or slapping them you used an instrument that is never mentioned in the Bible for child correction. It was used by servants of the high priest to shame The Christ and the Apostle Paul.

You can beat your children if you so choose.

Depends on what you think "beating" means. If you're assuming that means thrashing them to within an inch of their lives, or for no reason at all, you are greatly misunderstanding the process. If you understand that the boundaries have been established, and they know that they have disobeyed and know consequences, they will also know that they will suffer real felt pain that they have earned and brought it upon themselves. You are only the administrator, not the causer. For the guilty but contrite, a token application suffices. But if guilty and still rebellious, the child's will to resist must be dealt with.

In the end we will both find who is correct.

I already know who is correct. One of my children who disobeyed my counsel died on US95 in his Escort under the wheels of a Greyhound bus, intoxicated. I put his body in the ground on his 27th birthday. His two brothers served as employees of a well-known international Christian missionary effort for 5 years each. One is now a Director of Information Services for a large Japanese corporation, has been for years. His brother gave the graduation speech for his engineering class of an outstanding technical university, was invited to return for a Masters, and finally earned his Professional Engineering license. After several years, he founded his own company, and later ran for Senator for his state. My daughter put herself through college, was married with four children; widowed at 42, but remarried later. At the same time she held professional positions and is now a vice president of a large national banking concern. All are sincere believing and practicing members of their local churches. I know what the outcome of their child-raising methods were, and the Proverbs 13:24 method wins hands down. Dr. Spock's methods? time-outs? -- not so well.

Hope it is as good for you. May The LORD's Word illuminate your way.

I'm done with this.

50 posted on 06/03/2012 7:46:18 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways.)
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