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Amillennialism 101 -- Jesus Christ: The True Israel
The Riddleblog ^ | Kim Riddlebarger | Kim Riddlebarger

Posted on 06/07/2012 8:38:38 AM PDT by Gamecock

If we stand within the field of prophetic vision typical of Israel’s prophets after the exile and captivity, and with them we look to the future, what do we see? Israel’s prophets clearly anticipate a time when Israel will be restored to its former greatness. But will that restoration of the nation of Israel to its former glory mirror the days of the monarchy? Or does the monarchy itself point us to the monarch?

Such a prophetic vision includes not only the nation, but the land of Canaan, the city of Jerusalem, the throne of David, as well as the temple in Jerusalem. Since the nation had been divided and the people were hauled off into captivity in Babylon some five centuries before the coming of Jesus, the magnificent temple destroyed and the priesthood gone, such prophetic expectation related to Israel’s future quite naturally spoke of a reversal of fortune and the undoing of calamity which had come upon the nation.

But with apostolic hindsight Peter speaks of how “concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.” (1 Peter 1:10-12).

In Isaiah 41:8-9, the prophet spoke of a future restoration of Israel in these terms. “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, `You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.'” The same promise is reiterated in the next chapter of Isaiah (42:1-7), when the LORD declares of his servant, “I am the Lord; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations”( v. 6). Isaiah continues to speak of this servant in chapters 44 (vv. 1-2) and 45 (v. 4).

Dispensationalists, given their so-called "literal hermeneutic," are bound to interpret such passages literally, thereby assign the fulfillment of these prophecies of Isaiah to a future earthly millennium in which Israel co-exists with Gentiles under the reign of the Davidic king (See Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom, 302-304; and Pentecost, Things to Come, 503-508). In effect, this amounts to the restoration of the monarchy as Jesus takes his place on David's royal throne and rules the nations from this restored Israel.

But is this how the New Testament interprets these messianic prophecies regarding the servant of the Lord? Who is this servant of the Lord? It is the nation of Israel, or is it Jesus, Israel’s Messiah?

In order to answer this questions, we must see that the gospel writers interpret these prophecies from Isaiah as fulfilled in the messianic mission of Jesus. First, in Matthew 12:15-21, for example, when Jesus withdrew from the crowds who had followed him, Matthew reports that this event fulfilled what had been spoken in Isaiah the prophet. This event serves to demonstrate that Jesus is the true servant of the Lord.

Second, as Jesus cast out demons and healed the sick, Matthew saw in this the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecies of a suffering servant who would take upon himself our infirmities and carry our diseases (Matthew 8:17 with Isaiah 53:4).

Third, in Luke’s gospel, Luke speaks of both Israel (cf. Luke 1:54) and David as the servant of God (Luke 1:69). Yet in Acts, Luke pointedly speaks of Jesus as the servant of God (Acts 3:13). After his crucifixion, God raised Jesus from the dead so that people everywhere might be called to repentance (3:26).

Fourth, when the Ethiopian eunuch hears a reading from Isaiah 53:7-8 and asks Philip about whom this prophecy refers, Luke tells us that Philip informed the Ethiopian that this passage does indeed refer to Jesus (Acts 8:34-35).

But this is not all that is in view here. In Hosea 11:1, Hosea predicted a time when “Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.” But in Matthew 2:15, the evangelist tells us that Hosea’s prophecy was fulfilled when his parents took Jesus to Egypt to protect him from Herod’s “slaughter of the innocents” (Matthew 2:3-18). Yet, after Herod had died, God called Jesus and his family to return to Nazareth. Matthew takes a passage from Hosea, which clearly refers to Israel, and tells his reader that this passage is now fulfilled in Jesus Christ! He does this to prove to his largely Jewish audience that Jesus is the servant of the Lord, foretold throughout the Old Testament (especially Isaiah).

By now it should be clear that according to many New Testament writers, Jesus is the true servant, the true son and the true Israel of God. Recall too that it was Isaiah who spoke of Israel and the descendants of Abraham as the people of God. It as through the seed of Abraham that the nations of the earth would be blessed.

Therefore, even as Jesus is the true Israel, he is the true seed of Abraham. This is the point that Paul is making in Galatians 3:7-8, when he says “know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, `In you shall all the nations be blessed.'”

Paul’s words here, are important for several reasons. First, Paul tells us that Abraham believed the very same gospel that he preached to the Gentile Galatians. There has only been one plan of salvation and one gospel from the very beginning. This, of course, raises very serious questions about the dispensational notion of “clearly distinct” redemptive purposes for national Israel and the Gentiles, as is evident when Paul goes on to say in Galatians 3:29, that “if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.”

Second, the one gospel promise from the very beginning of redemptive history is that the true children of Abraham, whether they be Jew or Gentile, are heirs of the promise, if they belong to Jesus Christ, the true seed of Abraham. But as Robert Strimple points out, an important word of clarification is certainly in order. “We [amillennarians] say: `Yes, the nation of Israel was the people of God in the old covenant. Now in the new covenant the believing church is the people of God.’ And thus we quickly run past (or we miss the blessed point entirely) the fact that we Christians are the Israel of God, Abraham’s seed, and the heirs to the promises, only because by faith, we are united to him who alone is the true Israel, Abraham’s one seed.” (See Strimple, “Amillennialism,” in Bock, ed., Three Views of the Millennium and Beyond, 89).

The ramifications for this upon one’s millennial view should now be obvious. If Jesus is the true Israel of God, and if the New Testament writers apply to Jesus those Old Testament prophecies referring to Israel as God’s son or servant, then what remains of the dispensationalist’s case that these prophecies remain yet to be fulfilled in a future millennium? They vanish in Jesus Christ, who has fulfilled them!


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: amillennialism; millennium; postmillennialism; premillennialism; riddlebarger
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1 posted on 06/07/2012 8:38:46 AM PDT by Gamecock
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Awaiting the usual suspects to hurl false accusations of Replacement Theology in 3, 2, 1....


2 posted on 06/07/2012 8:40:56 AM PDT by Gamecock (I worked out with a dumbbell yesterday and I feel vigorous!)
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

I really can't pin down my end times positions, but I thought this provided some good insights. Hope you find it usful as well.

3 posted on 06/07/2012 8:44:02 AM PDT by Gamecock (I worked out with a dumbbell yesterday and I feel vigorous!)
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To: Gamecock

What is Replacement Theology?


4 posted on 06/07/2012 8:50:08 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: Gamecock
Gamecock, you and I have compared our scriptural interpretations to the question Who Is Israel? on other occasions. We are both students of the Word. I admire your gift of writing. This article is very well done. I have discussed the “single seed” vs the “seed that is as many as the stars and the sand” many times.

Oh P.S. the gospel preached to Abraham was that all the nations would be blessed/nivrauchu MIXED! so Abrahams seed would be mixed in all the nations...THAT IS THE GOSPEL! Now to those in traditional Christianity you will have no idea what Gamecock and I are talking about. I just had a missionary in my Bible Study yesterday break down in tears after she heard the “gospel that was preached to Abraham” Galatians 3:8 and the GOSPEL that Jesus preached. Hint...Jesus didn't preach about his death, burial, and Resurrection. The TRUE Gospel hasn't been preached for 2000 years. The “church” hasn't a clue. Gamecock, you and I and about 500,000 other Believers are delving into the Truths of what the Bible says, not what man says and we understand the Gospel of the Kingdom and how it plays out in the last day. Keep digging :) and so shall I.

5 posted on 06/07/2012 9:02:18 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: stuartcr

It is the idea that The Church has replaced National Isreal.


6 posted on 06/07/2012 9:04:21 AM PDT by AceMineral (Will work for money.)
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To: stuartcr

“What is Replacement Theology?”

A straw man! In this case, used by those who do not understand the concepts of fulfilment or completion.


7 posted on 06/07/2012 9:07:04 AM PDT by Diapason
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To: AceMineral

Thanks, I’ll try to figure out what that means.


8 posted on 06/07/2012 9:12:03 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: Diapason

Thanks, I’ll try to figure out what that means also.


9 posted on 06/07/2012 9:13:18 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: Gamecock
Jesus Christ: The True Israel

If he is Israel,
is he no longer YHvH,
the creator of the universe ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
10 posted on 06/07/2012 9:43:15 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Gamecock

So.

First, bflr for later reading.

Second, my current strongest distinction for dispensational teaching is that:

Israel = the unfaithful, whoring, divorced wife of God the Father.

The church = the unmarried, betrothed, Bride of Christ.


11 posted on 06/07/2012 9:59:56 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Gamecock
What a waste of time. 1 John 3:23 says, "And THIS is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

I have yet to see a commandment telling us to figure out future prophecies.

12 posted on 06/07/2012 10:00:39 AM PDT by aimhigh
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To: Gamecock

These arguments that the millenial prophecies were fulfilled during Jesus’ earthly ministry neglect to take into account the millenial prophecies in Revelation, issued after his earthly ministry was over, which match up quite nicely with the OT prophecies.


13 posted on 06/07/2012 10:03:39 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: UriÂ’el-2012

Good question. On a related note, if Jesus is Israel, then how can he be the bride and the bridegroom at the same time?


14 posted on 06/07/2012 10:09:28 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Gamecock

Awaiting the usual suspects insisting buried somewhere in the Scriptures that Jehovah certainly made a covenant of grace and or works with man and a covenant of redemption between the Father and the Son. I mean it’s right there somewhere, plain as day, in err, ahem, the Old Te.., I mean New, I mean the booook of, hum,...


15 posted on 06/07/2012 10:17:02 AM PDT by fatboy (This protestant will have no part in the ecumenical movement)
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To: Boogieman

Yes, too.

Like my #11.


16 posted on 06/07/2012 10:25:14 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

God didn’t divorce Israel, but he did “put her away”. If you understand the distinction in the OT between the two things, it’s an important difference that clarifies a lot of confusion.


17 posted on 06/07/2012 11:27:03 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Gamecock
The ramifications for this upon one’s millennial view should now be obvious. If Jesus is the true Israel of God, and if the New Testament writers apply to Jesus those Old Testament prophecies referring to Israel as God’s son or servant, then what remains of the dispensationalist’s case that these prophecies remain yet to be fulfilled in a future millennium?

Everything...

Romans 8, 9, and 10 remain...The description of the Millennium in Revelation remains...The parables in the Gospels remain...Plus thousands of verses in the O.T. remain...

You can't knock out the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ with a few, 'what ifs'...

Dispensationalists, given their so-called "literal hermeneutic," are bound to interpret such passages literally, thereby assign the fulfillment of these prophecies of Isaiah to a future earthly millennium in which Israel co-exists with Gentiles under the reign of the Davidic king (See Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom, 302-304; and Pentecost, Things to Come, 503-508). In effect, this amounts to the restoration of the monarchy as Jesus takes his place on David's royal throne and rules the nations from this restored Israel.

Yes we do...unapologetically...

18 posted on 06/07/2012 11:57:02 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Gamecock

That would be Romans 9, 10 and 11...


19 posted on 06/07/2012 11:59:18 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: ladyL
Oh P.S. the gospel preached to Abraham was that all the nations would be blessed/nivrauchu MIXED! so Abrahams seed would be mixed in all the nations...THAT IS THE GOSPEL! Now to those in traditional Christianity you will have no idea what Gamecock and I are talking about. I just had a missionary in my Bible Study yesterday break down in tears after she heard the “gospel that was preached to Abraham” Galatians 3:8 and the GOSPEL that Jesus preached. Hint...Jesus didn't preach about his death, burial, and Resurrection. The TRUE Gospel hasn't been preached for 2000 years. The “church” hasn't a clue. Gamecock, you and I and about 500,000 other Believers are delving into the Truths of what the Bible says, not what man says and we understand the Gospel of the Kingdom and how it plays out in the last day. Keep digging :) and so shall I.

Cant seem to find nivrauchu in my bible...Perhaps you could point it out...

There are many dispensationalists who would agree with you and the Gospel of Jesus Christ...Jesus was teaching a gospel to the Jews and Jews only that had nothing to do with his death, burial and resurrection...

Had the Jews accepted Jesus as their Messia, they would have gone on into the Kingdom with Jesus as their ruler and God...

The Jews (and Romans) killed Jesus instead...

And ultimately along comes Paul...And along with Paul comes the message from the risen Lord, Jesus that a new gospel is to take place...

A gospel to the Gentiles thru Grace and Faith of God...A gospel that allows the adoption of Gentiles into the Body of Christ...To become the Bride of Christ...

You have the two gospels down right...But you have them terribly mixed up...

However, that first gospel will again be preached to the Jews after the church is taken up and away...During the Great Tribulation...And it's called the 'everlasting gospel' in the book of Revelation...

20 posted on 06/07/2012 12:19:04 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: aimhigh
I have yet to see a commandment telling us to figure out future prophecies.

So you got a one page bible, eh??? The apostle Paul preached 'all the counsel of God'...

Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Seems a good preacher would try to mimic Paul...

Perhaps you spend more time in church playing with your i-phone than you do listening to the preacher...

21 posted on 06/07/2012 12:25:13 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: ladyL

Sounds like you guys feel really special in your little secret club where only the truth is known by you and to you alone.

Hogwash.


22 posted on 06/07/2012 12:40:58 PM PDT by Jedidah ("In those days Israel had no king. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.")
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To: Iscool
Two gospels?
23 posted on 06/07/2012 1:13:29 PM PDT by Lexinom
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To: Gamecock
The ramifications for this upon one’s millennial view should now be obvious. If Jesus is the true Israel of God, and if the New Testament writers apply to Jesus those Old Testament prophecies referring to Israel as God’s son or servant, then what remains of the dispensationalist’s case that these prophecies remain yet to be fulfilled in a future millennium?

========

The suppositions advanced in this post can only be offered through a deeply flawed hermeneutic that ignores several factors:

o Jesus' flat, literal statement to Pilate: "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight; that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is not my kingdom from hence." (Jn. 18:36)

o conformance to the law of double reference, of the appearances of Jesus The Anointed One: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for him shall he apppear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Heb. 9:28); also "I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at the appearing and his kingdom. ... Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day; and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." (2 Tim. 4:1,8)

o a yet-to-come war against the reconstituted nation Israel, existing separately from the person of The Christ, when He will instiute the dead, risen, and reenfleshed David as His earthly Viceroy. (Zechariah 14)

o a yet-to-come millenial kingdom in which overcoming believer-disciples will be resurrected to reign with Him for a thousand years: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev. 20:8)

o a complete differentiation between the Kingdom of Heaven (KOH) and the Kingdom of The God, whose features are as follows:

A lengthy paper resolving the error of confusing these two kingdoms

A table comparing the two kingdoms

A pictorial representation of The events in The God's plans which He has revealed progressively through the ages

It will be very helpful if one reads through the paper so as to better follow the colors in the pictorial chart. It is difficult to imagine that a confessing believer discipled Biblically could come to the conclusion to which the imaginations of the author of this post prefers to a literal-historical interpretation.

"... And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest; as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness." (2 Pe. 3:15-17)

In the above, I have bolded the word "unlearned," which is better rendered not as "untaught" or "ignorant" but as "undiscipled." That is, fault comes from those who try to gain the ability to teach others from their own unsupervised reading, when they themselves have not been discipled by an accepted discipler-teacher that has cleaved to that plan of Christ which He initiated with His Own disciple-apostles, a procedure they were commissioned under his authority to teach and commission other disciples, and upon which His Church was to be founded.

Amillenialism can not be a mark of a literal-historical hermeneutic, which can be defended, and in which one cannot lie. I believe it can only be a product of reasonings not arrived at by a metaphorical interpretation in which the basis only results in perpetual unresolvable argument and confusion. Beware.

"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever." (2 Pe. 3:18)

24 posted on 06/07/2012 1:20:57 PM PDT by imardmd1 ("Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways." (Ps. 128:1))
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To: stuartcr

Replacement Theology as its opponents would describe it is that the future benefits for Israel have now been given to The Church. The proponents of Replacement Theology would say that this has been the traditional view of The Church from the start.


25 posted on 06/07/2012 1:23:27 PM PDT by AceMineral (Will work for money.)
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To: imardmd1
Erratum:

... at his appearing and his kingdom ... (2 Tim. 1:1)

26 posted on 06/07/2012 1:25:29 PM PDT by imardmd1 ("Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways." (Ps. 128:1))
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To: Gamecock
The ramifications for this upon one’s millennial view should now be obvious. If Jesus is the true Israel of God, and if the New Testament writers apply to Jesus those Old Testament prophecies referring to Israel as God’s son or servant, then what remains of the dispensationalist’s case that these prophecies remain yet to be fulfilled in a future millennium? They vanish in Jesus Christ, who has fulfilled them!

Massive non sequitur. It all looked good until this last paragraph.

Maybe I missed it. Christ hasn't returned yet, either to rapture his saints (Matthew 24:31 which corresponds to Revelation 6:17, Revelation 14:14) prior to his wrath.

Nor has Jesus returned yet seated on a white horse at the head of the host of the saints of the 1st resurrection (Revelation 19:11).

Satan hasn't been chained and cast into the pit (Revelation 20:2,3) "that he should deceive the nations no more." There is a whole lot of deceivin' goin' on and the god of this world seems to be pressing to the pedal to the metal. Just look around.

Where are the resurrected saints ruling and judging,(Revelation 20:4) "reigning with Christ for a thousand years"? "A thousand years" is not TWO thousand years.

As much as I disagree with the pre-tribbers, dispensationalists, univeral churchists, zionists, nothing compares with the impossibility of preterism/amillennialism or whatever it is called.

27 posted on 06/07/2012 1:53:47 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: Iscool
You have the two gospels down right...But you have them terribly mixed up...

You have made some good points, and have noted that there is more than one gospel.

But I'm afraid that the gospel announced by the amillenialists is not either one of yours you think they have right. No, it is another gospel, not the one given by Christ to Paul. (Gal 1:6-12)

I was taught of twelve gospels in the NT by my discipler, and they are described in the paper What is the Gospel?

Respectfully --

28 posted on 06/07/2012 2:05:26 PM PDT by imardmd1 ("Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways." (Ps. 128:1))
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To: imardmd1
A further correction (last paragraph)(strike out "not"):

...a product of reasonings not arrived at by a metaphorical interpretation...

29 posted on 06/07/2012 2:40:41 PM PDT by imardmd1 ("Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways." (Ps. 128:1))
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To: Jedidah
Actually there are 3-5 hundred thousand Believers all over the world who understand the Gospel Jesus preached. They didn't accept the doctrines and traditions of men. Want to know what it's all about You Tube Jim Staley Identity Crisis. Anyone seeking truth will have their eyes opened and ears cleared by this teaching. One of my good friends, a Cradle Role Baptist, said after listening to Staley, I feel like I'm born again, AGAIN!
I truly don't mean to sound like this is an exclusive club, it's not. The Gospel is for everyone. I pray you at least listen to Identity Crisis before you judge Gamecock and I.
Blessings
30 posted on 06/07/2012 2:54:34 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: Iscool
I appreciate your position and know that only the Holy Spirit can reveal to us if our position is correct. Until He shows us error we must stand on the knowledge we have. But here is the danger, sometimes we “stand” too long and do not seek to know His truths deeper and/or in a different perspective. I don't know if you can post websites here on Free Republic but I have a website and have written a short book on the Gospel Jesus preached. In stead of you and I going back and forth, if you have any interest at all, and if you don't that is perfectly ok, but if you have any interest, my book is a free ebook at forthispurpose.tv. I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.
Blessings.
31 posted on 06/07/2012 3:03:47 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: fishtank
Hosea says Yahweh divorced the House of Israel but not her sister the House of Judah. Jeremiah 31:31 speaks of the New Covenant to be made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, where is the church? Jesus said He came only for the HOUSE OF ISRAEL... Traditional Christianity is missing some answers here.
32 posted on 06/07/2012 3:08:32 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: fishtank
Hosea says Yahweh divorced the House of Israel but not her sister the House of Judah. Jeremiah 31:31 speaks of the New Covenant to be made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, where is the church? Jesus said He came only for the HOUSE OF ISRAEL... Traditional Christianity is missing some answers here.
33 posted on 06/07/2012 3:08:40 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: Lexinom

Paul says if anyone preaches another gospel let him be accursed. Pretty serious stuff? No? so...I think I will preach the Gospel Jesus preached. Not Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul....JESUS! His Gospel...
Now we must ask...what is the Gospel Jesus preached and what is the gospel his diciples preached that he sent out.
It was the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. Now you must ask...what is the Kingdom of God that He preached 3 1/2 years about. uhmmm...gets really interesting. “I came only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.” Matt. 15:24


34 posted on 06/07/2012 3:28:57 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: ladyL; Gamecock

Run, do not walk, RUN, from anyone who claims the “true” Gospel has not been preached for 2,000 years.

anyone making such a claim is a false teacher that Jesus said would arise towards the end of the world. Traditional Christianity, the Church is experiencing a falling away and these false prophets are more than happy to fill the void.


35 posted on 06/07/2012 3:41:32 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Gamecock
Blessings to you, GC.

This thread started with such promise.

And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

But I said, “I have labored in vain; I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity; yet surely my right is with the LORD, and my recompense with my God.”

And now the LORD says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; ...


36 posted on 06/07/2012 4:21:20 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("I'm so thankful for the active obedience of Christ. No hope without it." -- J. Gresham Machen)
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To: imardmd1
But I'm afraid that the gospel announced by the amillenialists is not either one of yours you think they have right. No, it is another gospel, not the one given by Christ to Paul. (Gal 1:6-12)

I was a little hasty with that remark...

37 posted on 06/07/2012 4:42:25 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
Run, do not walk, RUN, from anyone who claims the “true” Gospel has not been preached for 2,000 years. anyone making such a claim is a false teacher that Jesus said would arise towards the end of the world. Traditional Christianity, the Church is experiencing a falling away and these false prophets are more than happy to fill the void.

But yet, others of your group claim your religion is growing by bounds and leaps...

As you can see, this is a discussion with and about the words of God, scripture...

I would think that it would a 'no man's land' for the Catholics...

38 posted on 06/07/2012 4:54:22 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool
But I'm afraid that the gospel announced by the amillenialists is not either one of yours you think they have right. No, it is another gospel, not the one given by Christ to Paul. (Gal 1:6-12) (imardmd1)

I was a little hasty with that remark... (Iscool)

Well, in a short time on FR, I've found out that if one wants to contribute, especially on a hot topic, a remark or comment has to be placed pretty quickly to be seen while people are still interested. That can be a problem if you really want to think it through. And it's not good enough with Bible doctrine to be 95% sure ---

There are a lot of pretty sharp folks on this forum.

But its good that you were basically well on the right track and hit on a few important drawbacks to the amillennialist concept.

Thanks for sharing!

39 posted on 06/07/2012 5:45:29 PM PDT by imardmd1 ("Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD, that walketh in His Ways." (Ps. 128:1))
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To: AceMineral; stuartcr
It is the idea that The Church has replaced National Isreal.

How does YHvH define "church" i.e.Ekklesia ?

Is it all those called out by YHvH ?

A study of the word "church", in the Koine Greek : Ekklesia.

Was the "church" started at the YHvH commanded
Feast day of Shavuot (pentecost) as some say ?

or

Did the "church" exist earlier ?

Using the LXX as a guide we see that the Ekklesia
is first used in Deuteronomy 4:10

NAsbU Deuteronomy 4:10 "Remember the day you stood before YHvH, your God
at Horeb, when YHvH said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let
them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on
the earth, and that they may teach their children.
'
Also see : Deu 4:10, Deu 9:10, Deu 18:16, Deu 23:3, Deu 23:4, Deu 23:9, Deu 31:30,
Jos 9:2, Jda 20.2, Jda 21:5, Jda 21:8, Jdg 20:2 Jdg 21:5, Jdg 21:8, 1 Sa 17:47,
1 Sa 19:20, 1 Ki 8:14, 1 Ki 8:22, 1 Ki 8:55, 1 Ki 8:65, 1 Ch 13:2, 1 Ch 13:4, 1 Ch 28:2,
1 Ch 28:8

What was the purpose of the Ekklesia ?

Was it a temporal corporation to rule on earth ? No !

Was it to have a temporal head ? No !

It was a gathering of YHvH's chosen people to hear His Word ?

and learn to Fear YHvH all their days ?

And to teach their children the same ? Yes.

-------------

Ekklesia is from the Hebrew Qahal (kof, hey, lamed)

(kof => The HOLY ONE
hey => grace, breath of G-d
lamed => teaching and learning)
which is haQahal The assembly (hey, kop, hey, lamed)
In scripture it is always used to describe
those who have been assembled by YHvH.
It begins in Exodus 16:3 ( the bread from heaven )
and continues to Nehemiah 8:17 (living in Booths)
NAsbU Nehemiah 8:17
The entire assembly of those who had returned from
the captivity made booths and lived in them.
The sons of Israel had indeed not done so
from the days of Joshua(Yehoshua)
the son of Nun to that day.
And there was great rejoicing.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
40 posted on 06/07/2012 7:32:21 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Gamecock
As an outsider looking in -- question: why do guys on both sides of the divide persist in using the terms "dispensationalist" or "replacementarian"? From what I've read, if one takes the strict definition of the terms, hardly anyone fits them exactly.

Instead of a serious debate, this can be reduced to poster's hurling "d.." or "rep..." a

41 posted on 06/08/2012 12:16:31 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Lexinom; ladyL

be aware Lexi that some posters who think they were hot stuff have created their own individual religion of one, with two gospels, beliefs that God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are just modes of each other etc.


42 posted on 06/08/2012 12:19:26 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: aimhigh
"What a waste of time"

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord.......for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy" (2 Timothy 1:7-8,Rev 19:10)

This is the work of God,that ye believe on Him whom He has sent. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts (John 6:29,John 13:19,2 Peter 1:10,2 Peter 1:19)

43 posted on 06/08/2012 1:05:19 AM PDT by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: Lexinom; thelady; Gamecock; Lee N. Field

read post 28 - 12 gospels in the NT...


44 posted on 06/08/2012 1:28:33 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: ladyL; Lexinom; Gamecock; one Lord one faith one baptism; Lee N. Field
Lady -- you quote Matt 15:24 but completely ignore the context -- why did Jesus say it? A Canaanite women came to Him and He tells her this, but then Jesus says in 28: Then Jesus answering, said to her: O woman, great is thy faith: be it done to thee as thou wilt: and her daughter was cured from that hour. and your post ignores John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

I'm sorry, but this incomplete reading of the Bible is utterly wrong philosophy, just as wrong as making a masonic ideal of Christianity by saying in post 22 "there are 3-5 hundred thousand Believers all over the world who understand the Gospel Jesus preached"

45 posted on 06/08/2012 1:36:40 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
I am sorry you have classified me as a false prophet for teaching the Gospel Jesus preached. The gospel traditional Christianity has preached is only partial, the death, burial and resurrection. The full gospel incorporates the teaching on the Kingdom of God. That is the gospel Jesus preached and that is the Gospel I teach. Please be careful in so quickly calling heresy as you are coming against the teachings of Jesus.
Oh, P.S. as far as heresy, I don't celebrate the pagan holidays of Christianity or the pagan Sun day as the sabbath. I do Bible things in Bible ways. I find those practicing paganism find it difficult to understand Jesus Gospel.
46 posted on 06/08/2012 4:59:07 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: Iscool

>Cant seem to find nivrauchu in my bible...Perhaps you could point it out...<

Restoration Scriptures...page 11 or http://yourarmstoisrael.org/The_Truth/THE_TRUTH_ABOUT_ALL_ISRAEL by Rabbi Moshe Koniuchowsky


47 posted on 06/08/2012 5:13:50 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: Boogieman

“The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: “Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also. So it came to pass, through her casual harlotry, that she defiled the land and committed adultery with stones and trees. And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to Me with her whole heart, but in pretense,” says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 3:6–10, NKJV)


48 posted on 06/08/2012 5:20:11 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: Cronos
As an outsider looking in -- question: why do guys on both sides of the divide persist in using the terms "dispensationalist" or "replacementarian"? From what I've read, if one takes the strict definition of the terms, hardly anyone fits them exactly.

"Dispensational" is their own term for themselves. It goes back quite a ways, at least to Clarance Larkin and the Scofield Reference Bible. Google it, go to Wikipedia.

"Replacement Theology" is their pejorative term for those that don't hold to the dispensationaists own unique views of the church and it's relation to Israel. The term has no meaning, outside their circles, and no one outside their circles talks that way.

"Replacementarian" is term coined by a Freerepublic dispensationalist*. Same old hooey, different day.

Instead of a serious debate, this can be reduced to poster's hurling "d.." or "rep..." a
Not a lot of headway seems to be made.

*whom I will not ping. No good is likely to come of it.

49 posted on 06/08/2012 5:25:43 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("I'm so thankful for the active obedience of Christ. No hope without it." -- J. Gresham Machen)
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To: ladyL

What church do you belong to?

Just curious.


50 posted on 06/08/2012 5:26:14 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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