Posted on 06/08/2012 8:21:53 PM PDT by Colofornian
“There’s families all scattered in through this area who had ancestors in that, so there is a tinge of anti-Mormonism in this area, a little bit of bias I suppose,” said Republican Roy Ragland...
SNIP
The Mountain Meadows Massacre remains one of the darkest episodes in the history of Mormonism...Romney addressed it during his 2007 presidential campaign in response to a reporter’s question.
“That was a terrible, awful act carried out by members of my faith,” he told the Associated Press. “There are bad people in any church, and it’s true of members of my church, too.”
SNIP
In northwestern Arkansas, at least two monuments commemorate the massacre, including a towering wooden cross erected just six years ago. On it is carved a biblical saying: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay saith the Lord.”
Historians believe the wagon train of 30 families, laden with cattle and other goods, set off in early 1857...
Their journey took them through Utah...
...local Mormon leaders decided to attack the wagon train with the help of a local Native American tribe, on whom they planned to lay the blame. After days of exchanging fire, a Mormon leader approached the camp to offer safe passage. But it was a ruse: The Mormon militia massacred the men and women and many of the children, 120 in all. Seventeen...were spared, and adopted by local families until federal authorities intervened to return them to Arkansas...
Descendants’ groups headquartered here...have...sometimes clashed with, the Mormon Church to create a public memorial at the site...which sits on church property...
“It’s an emotional thing for us,” said Phil Bolinger, president of the Mountain Meadows Monument Foundation. “When you come of age, when you mature, things to do with your own blood kin becomes more important and you become passionate about it.”...
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
From the article: In northwestern Arkansas, at least two monuments commemorate the massacre, including a towering wooden cross erected just six years ago. On it is carved a biblical saying: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay saith the Lord.”
A BYU rep (Lawrence G. Coates BYU-Idaho) will cover: “Healing Bitterness: The Mountain Meadows Massacre” -- showing that Mormons still recognize they've done very little to alleviate the bitterness over these past 150 some years... (Mina Estevez is also speaking on: “Murdering History: Literature and the Mountain Meadows Massacre”
Do we all remember the images of some Muslims 'round the world dancing over 9/11 in 2001?
These were Muslims not only excusing the behavior of the terrorists, but were celebrating it.
That's essentially -- at least in part -- what we had Mormon leaders doing...
Re: the first Memorial placed @ the massacre site: "The original Rock Cairn and Cross were desecrated by Brigham Young on May 25, 1861 as recorded in church historian and forth President of the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, Wilford Woodruffs diary. The Tyrannical Prophet Brigham Young stated at the time of the desecration; 'Vengeance is mine and I have had a little.' The Rock Cairn was leveled to the ground."
Source: BRIGHAM YOUNG DESECRATED THE CHRISTIAN CROSS AND ROCK CAIRN
In 1858, Young was given a pardon for his part in the MMM atrocities.
Young and other Mormon leaders have all excused the Mormon mass-murderers -- at least 42 known Mormons by never bringing them to justice...or even ex-communicating them (two were; but were reinstated later -- one while still adlive; the other after his death)...
From the article: Romney addressed it during his 2007 presidential campaign in response to a reporter’s question. “That was a terrible, awful act carried out by members of my faith,” he told the Associated Press. “There are bad people in any church, and it’s true of members of my church, too.”
The mass-murderers included an Lds bishop, an Lds "to be" bishop, two stake presidents, a counselor to a stake president...
(So much for people -- like Mitt Romney -- claiming there's "murderers" in every church...such "murderers" in other churches aren't readily elevated to--or retained as -- church leadership...like what happened with these mass murderers)
One of the Mormon stake presidents had been in that role about a year when the massacre occurred...as a "reward" for his part in the slaughter, Lds "prophets" Brigham Young and John Taylor left him in that role. He (William Dame) wound up serving 24 years as an Lds stake president (1856-1880).
(Oh...and for those who highlight Muslim terrorism to the exclusion of Mormon terrorism, did God frown on Mormon terrorists less because they were Mormon?)
Also, dozens of other Mormons were involved in the MMM (and who are also named even by Lds sources) -- these are ones who had probable "lesser" accomplice/perp roles.
Muslim turned communists turned hate-whitarian Christian is above reproach, but Romney is responsible for actions of Mormons in 1858, back when the US government was persecuting Mormons?
This is typical Mormon PR as its best (worst).
I can't tell you how many times I've seen sources claim that Mormon families "adopted" 17 of the youngest children. All as if this was some "compassionate" loving thing to do.
Funny that when Charles Lindberg's baby was kidnapped, 'twas kidnapping...but when Mormons kidnapped 17 infants, toddlers and primary grade kids -- all while slaughtering some 7 and 8 yo at the same time (as well as older kids) -- it was an "adoption."
Mormons held these children hostage for about two years until the Army had to come and rescue them...Notice, no effort was made by these Mormons or Mormon leaders to return the children over all that time...nor were these Mormons arrested for kidnapping.
Thank you, WashPost. As an expert at undermining good people, places, and things, you’ve helped us greatly. If all you can find to smear Romney with is MountainMeadows from 1858, you’ve convinced us that Romney must be a really good man. We’re definitely going to vote for him now.
***In northwestern Arkansas, at least two monuments commemorate the massacre,****
Two other wagon trains were also attacked. The Miltmore Train and the Shepherd Train. Booth suffered loss of life from attackers some of who were blond blue eyed bearded, spoke English and dressed like Indians.
Fancher once owned 200 acres about two miles south of where I live.
There is also a monument in downtown Harrison, Arkansas where the train started from.
Brigham Young not only kidnapped those 17 children after murdering their unarmed parents in cold blood...
He also held them for ransom...
The US government had to pay him $10,000 (1860 money) to get them back...
#1...If Mormons were 1858 victims of the U.S. govt...(actually the massacre occurred in 1857)...tell us who the supposed actual victims were?
There was a threatened war that ne'er occurred other than the Mormons causing the deaths of some of the army stationed @ Ft. Bridger [and that wasn't due to any hand-to-hand or shooting combat].
#2 If you try falling back on prosecution of polygamy, that didn't occur in the 1850s. Congress didn't begin addressing laws aimed @ Mormon polygamy until the 1860s thru 1880s.
***Mormons held these children hostage for about two years until the Army had to come and rescue them***
In one incident when the Army rescued one child it took a lot of military discipline by the officers to prevent the troops from lynching every mormon they found.
Another told how the Stake house at Cedar City stank like a slaughter house for two years because of the bloody clothing from the murdered was stored there.
The US government did not persecute mormons, that is part of the mormonism revisionist history.
#1, Romney's the one who was a poor excuse for a human being with the horrid excuse of “There are bad people in any church, and it’s true of members of my church, too.” (So Romney boomeranged this back on himself by trying to excuse away these mass murderers...Romney utterly failed to mention that Lds only helped to bring one murderer to justice -- out of dozens & dozens -- and didn't even ex-communicate any of the murderers save two -- and reinstated BOTH of them...one, John D. Lee, well after his death)
The Huge problem with the 19th & 20th century Mormon church wasn't just the mass murderers; but all those leaders who covered up their murders...
#2, if you're complaining about this being brought up within the timing of an election year, will you rail on the Mormon History Association, too -- when in three weeks -- they will devote a whole session section to this topic?
The session section is entitled: From Mountain Meadows to Modern Sympathies:
A BYU rep (Lawrence G. Coates BYU-Idaho) will cover: “Healing Bitterness: The Mountain Meadows Massacre” -- showing that Mormons still recognize they've done very little to alleviate the bitterness over these past 150 some years... (Mina Estevez is also speaking on: “Murdering History: Literature and the Mountain Meadows Massacre”
Source: Mormonism in Its Expanding Global Context: Invitations to New Interpretation and Understanding
Hey newbie, who is 'we'?
Romney must be a really good man.
Romney is a liberal and a cult leader - NOTHING good about that.
Yes.
Hell is eternal to deal with such notorious legacies.
Notice the pathetic sheer reductionism exercised by Mitt Romney in 2007.
He reduced...
...mass murder...
...carried out over several days [some were killed/wounded in the initial siege attempt]...
...Kidnapping of 17 children & held hostage by Brigham Young for ransom...
...Theft of prize horses...
...$...
...wagons...
...clothes off the corpses...
...you name it...
...generations of cover-up...
...all to ONE single "act"...
Mitt Romney is a pathetic human being.
You really want to go down this path? If we want to hold people accountable for the actions of their ancestors, I can assure you none of our hands are clean.
The Utah War, which was President Buchanan's attempt to exterminate the Mormons under the pretext of putting down a rebellion, fizzled out because of opposition from both federal and state officials, but the fact that this attempt at mass murder ever got started is pretty amazing in itself:
At the end of June 1858 the Army troops under General Johnston entered the Salt Lake Valley unhindered. Riding through the still empty streets of Salt Lake City on June 26, an embittered Johnston was heard to say that he would have given "his plantation for a chance to bombard the city for fifteen minutes."[58] Lt. Col. Charles Ferguson Smith stated that he "did not care a damm who heard him; he would like to see every dammed Mormon hung by the neck."
Placemarker
Come on Colo...you have added to the title with the “[1st 9/11 terrorism was Lds]” which is another deliberate attempt to equate the LDS Church with our nation’s enemies.
As I have stated to you and others before e I will not sit back and countenance such a willful, and blatant distortion.
What happened in Mountain Meadows 155 years ago was a horrific, terrible act. One man was executed for it...but a bunch more should have been. There is no excuse or justification for what they did.
However, it was not the 1st act of “terrorism” on these shores by any stretch, nor was it the worst up until that time.
Others were committed by Insians, and also by whites (including by Christians) from the earliest times of the colonization of this country.
I listed them once before in another thread that brought up the Mountain Meadows Massacre to try and smear the Church today.
Romney spoke to this himself and called it what it was.
Sadly, there are evil people in any gathering of any appreciable numbers of people almost anywhere.
God rest the souls of those settlers who were killed and bless and comfort their descendants.
And God bless and rest those LDS people who were massacred and killed in Missouri and Illinois 15-20 years earlier when the LDS were brutally persecuted and pushed out into the Intermountain West to the Great Basin.
Both acts of murder were horrific, wrong, and inexcusable.
#1...Anything you mention about Missouri or IL had NOTHING to do with the US Govt...
RMLew's comment was: ...1858, back when the US government was persecuting Mormons? (which is what I addressed)
#2...Are you claiming that if a member of your family was killed in hostilities from 13 to 19 to 24 years prior, that it would somehow justify an unrelated mass murder of people BY mostly people NOT involved in the original conflict OF people NOT involved in the original conflict?
If you are, you've got pathetic reasoning skills.
#3...
What most people miss is the correct definition of "extermination" in the 1835 time period. Webster's Dictionary of 1828 under "exterminate" has: "Literally, to drive from within the limits or borders. Hence, 1. To destroy utterly; to drive away...."
Source: MORMONS - PERSECUTED, PERSECUTOR OR BOTH?
A Mormon author, George W. Givens, likewise pointed this out in his book 500 Little-Known Facts in Mormon History: Latter-day Saints have universally condemned the notorious Haun's Mill Massacre by a mom-militia shortly after Missouri Governor Boggs issued the infamous extermination order...a second look at the definition of the word "exterminate" as it was used in 1838, however, might cause us to take a second look at Governor Boggs as well. An American Dictionary of English Language, published in 1828, defines "exterminate" as "literally, to drive from within the limits or borders." (p. 26) Bonneville Books, 2004
Q What implications does this have?
A Simply put, beware of Mormon Victimology Mythology!
Mormon Victimology Mythology: Or How Mormon Historical Revisitionists often need a Paul Harvey type 'rest of the story' to hold them accountable for their strange gaps in their history!
Early Summer, 1838 -- July 4, in fact: (c) Joseph Smith's "partner in cult 'crime'" is Sidney Rigdon's.
Rigdon chose this date to give an "inflammatory" sermon re: independence of the church from mobocracy. Rigdon "warned of a war of EXTERMINATION between Mormons and their enemies if they were further threatened or harassed." (Leland H. Gentry, Church History, p. 343). Lds writer Max Parkin conceded that Rigdon's June 19 and July 4 messages "further incensed the public against expanding LDS influences." (Church History, p. 348).
If DU & other Mormons were given history questions on understanding the word "extermination" in 1830s America, they would flunk outright! Certainly, what we almost NEVER hear from contemporary Mormon posters is that apparently the first group to threaten the other with "extermination" in Missouri wasn't Gov. Boggs. 'Twas Lds leader Sidney Rigdon four months prior to that!
To add even more to the complexity of why people acted as they did in those Missouri 1830s, the Lds Church History; Selections from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism adds other reasons:
(a) Sidney Rigdon's June 19, 1838 "Salt Sermon" reinforced local Mormon opposition;
(b) Lds militia officer Sampson Avard initiated a vigilante group known as the Danites
(c) Gamecock posted an article a few years back with a few interesting excerpts:
Late October, 1838:
[Author had just cited Lds apostle Bruce McConkie]: McConkie's dramatic rhetoric fails to take into account the fact that the Haun's Mill massacre took place just one week after the battle of Crooked River. [Former BYU History professor] Quinn writes: "A generally unacknowledged dimension of both the EXTERMINATION ORDER and the Haun's Mill massacre, however, is that they resulted from Mormon actions in the Battle of Crooked River. Knowingly or not, MORMONS HAD ATTACKED STATE TROOPS, and this had a cascade effect… upon receiving news of the injuries and death of state troops at Crooked River, Governor Boggs immediately drafted his extermination order on 27 October 1838 because the MORMONS 'HAVE MADE WAR UPON THE PEOPLE OF THIS STATE.' Worse, the killing of one Missourian and mutilation of another while he was defenseless at Crooked River led to the mad-dog revenge by Missourians in the slaughter at Haun's Mill" (Origins of Power, p.100).
Secondary source: Violence in Early Mormonism - Was It All Unjust Persecution?
From this same article posted by Gamecock: If violence against a certain faith were the only way to determine truth, then certainly the Mormons themselves would have to recognize that our Christian faith was just as viable as theirs. Can a Mormon, off the top of his head, recall when the last Mormon was killed just because he was a Mormon? Certainly we have heard of Mormons being tragically killed while serving missions, but these cases involve circumstances other than true martyrdom (robberies, car accidents, being mistaken for CIA agents, etc). On the other hand, it is not uncommon to hear of Christians around the world who are being killed because they refuse to denounce their belief that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. While martyrdom seems to be a thing of the past for the Mormons, it is a common occurrence among those who have placed their total trust in the Jesus of the Bible.” (Bill McKeever)
Next the Spanish Inquisition and the holy-screeds against Catholics. You should listen to them, because those posters on this forum believe that they speak for God, you know.
Don’t you just the “holier-than-thou” types that infect this forum? Hey! If you can’t prove your religion is true, criticize the others! That works!
It is a strange event when the psychotic obama followers join forces with they psychotic religious nutcases.
My attempted point was merely that the WashPost is a very biased newspaper today. (I imagine you knew that already, of course.) I did not mean to whitewash the 1857 events in SW Utah. Thanks.
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