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Iím a Mormon, Not a Christian [Mega hit piece on Christians]
New York Times ^ | June 12, 2012 | David V. Mason

Posted on 06/13/2012 7:46:26 AM PDT by greyfoxx39

................... Mormons seem to be everywhere.

I want to be on record about this. I’m about as genuine a Mormon as you’ll find — a templegoer with a Utah pedigree and an administrative position in a congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am also emphatically not a Christian.

-SNIP-

In addition, these Christians had to defend their use of additional scripture and their unconventional conception of God and explain why they were following a bumpkin carpenter from some obscure backwater. Early Christianity’s relationship with non-Jews was even worse. Roman writers frequently alluded to rumors about the cannibalistic and hedonistic elements of early Christian rites. One after the other, Christians went to the lions because they found it impossible to defend themselves against such outrageous accusations. They did eat flesh and drink blood every Sunday, after all.

Eventually, Christianity grew up and conceded that it wasn’t authentic Judaism. Lo and behold, once it had given up its claim to Judaism, it became a state religion — cannibalism notwithstanding — and spent the next 1,700 years getting back at all the bullies who had slighted it when it was a child.

-SNIP-

Whatever happens in November, I hope Mormonism eventually realizes that it doesn’t need Christianity’s approval and will get big and beat up all the imperious Christians who tormented it when it was small, weird and painfully self-conscious. Mormons are certainly Christian enough to know how to spitefully abuse their power.


(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion; Other Christian; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: antichristian; catholic; hissyfit; lds; mormon; romney
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To: James C. Bennett
Well then I can understand the confusion.

Jesus was the Word made flesh. Why this was important was to demonstrate to his creation that God truly understood us, how we went about our lives. As any man would do Jesus prayed to God. Can we say he prayed to himself, perhaps, but to those of us who believe we know there is far more to it than that. My personal belief is that during Jesus Earthly ministry there was a "separation" of a kind, not complete but the man Jesus saw the world with Earthly eyes and lived a fully human experience while still maintaining heavenly connection with the whole.

Seems a tick confusing of course yet in the end its is amazing. And yes, from this the “mystery beyond full comprehension” DOES indeed answer the question, for we do not understand the HOW but we embrace the WHY.

God is powerful enough to be as he wishes, that he can both be with us as a man yet remain fully God is not hard to believe when one looks at the wonders he has made.

101 posted on 06/13/2012 11:15:03 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: greyfoxx39
As we see every day on FR most Christians do not have the faintest idea of what mormon doctrine and beliefs are...yet.

Heck; most MORMONs do not 'know' what is in their own 'scriptures', history and teachings!

102 posted on 06/13/2012 11:15:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: James C. Bennett; ejonesie22
I am not theistic, but your answer that the Trinity is a “mystery beyond full comprehension” does not explain why Jesus prayed to God if they are both one.

Why are you putting words in my mouth with a false quote? (I didn't say that...are you quoting somebody else...or was it just more convenient for you to create a straw man because you can't or won't more fully answer the Q?)

If you're not theistic, then what does all this matter to you re: how many gods there are? (Apparently, it doesn't)

If you're not theistic, then apparently it won't matter to you -- until you see Jesus face-to-face -- whether He is THE True God of the Universe -- or not. (THEN, it will be ALL that matters to you)

103 posted on 06/13/2012 11:15:34 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: James C. Bennett

Don’t let your assumptions lead you into a corner.


104 posted on 06/13/2012 11:17:22 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: James C. Bennett

Don’t let your assumptions lead you into a corner.

Like I am going out on a limb and ASSUME that you either believe Jesus was NOT GOD, or else the Fathe, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three SEPARATE gods.


105 posted on 06/13/2012 11:18:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

Ironic you are using a JEW to point out other people’s “
heresy”
Guess Jews, Catholics, Anglicans among others are all on the express train to hell along with rhe mormons, eh?


106 posted on 06/13/2012 11:18:39 AM PDT by RedMonqey (Men who will not suffer to self govern, will suffer under the governance of lesser men.)
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To: Colofornian
Temple Mormons are the "elite" Mormons -- the Mormons who tend to think they are "gods in embryo" on their way to full-grown godhood...like Mitt Romney.


The Doctrine and Covenants

Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

 


 

 16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

 17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.

 18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

 19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

 22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

 23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.

 24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

 25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.


107 posted on 06/13/2012 11:20:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian

Oh, don’t get me wrong. I’m voting for Romney. Nor do I think he, or other Mormons, are Satanic.

I just believe that everything that is not of God is of Satan, and I don’t think, or believe, that Mormonism is of God, decent as most of them are.

Like it, or lump it, that’s my opinion. I’ll answer to God one day for it, as will you for yours.


108 posted on 06/13/2012 11:20:25 AM PDT by chesley (God's chosen intrument - the trumpet)
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To: muawiyah
We had another prediction on FR that's come true ~ that was when the Mittbots got their boy over the line they'd begin openly equating any criticism of Mitt with criticism of the LDS.

Office of First President & Living Prophet®:

April 21st, 2012

URGENT!

Fellow MORMON Freeper Christians!!
 
Hot diggity dog; our boy has MADE it!!
Now beware; for the media is gonna be on us like... well; you know the saying.

I've been getting lots of feedback from those of you on Free Republic (spit) about a certain ELSIE (or something like that), who is REALLY giving us a hard time there!
 
Why not try to point out to the uninformed how OBSESSED he seems to be.
 
Let's see if we can tangle him up so much trying to defend his reputation
that he'll no longer have as much time to post facts about MORMONism.
 
As always, Tommy M.  
 
(Keep pressing that we are CHRISTIAN and avoid anything MORMON like the DEVIL!!)

109 posted on 06/13/2012 11:21:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: taxcutisapayraise
He was the president of the Mormon church and also Ike’s Sec. of Ag.

I believe our FReeper community will find favor in his wisdom ...


MORE from Wise, Old Ezra...




In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.


1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)     http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

110 posted on 06/13/2012 11:25:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: .45 Long Colt

“[The Devil] does his best soul-destroying work in the area of false religion. Mormonism is one of his better efforts. It’s a killer wrapped in a wholesome, patriotic, family-friendly wrapper with the name of Jesus attached for an extra measure of deception.”

Indeed.


111 posted on 06/13/2012 11:30:42 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (I will never vote for Romney. Ever.)
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To: muawiyah
So, what term do we want to use so that we don't needlessly confuse or insult our fellow Christians?

This appears to be NO problem for MORMONs. That is the group, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, United States of America.

They religiously claim that ONLY their group has the RIGHT to call themselves MORMON.

Even though others manage to actually FOLLOW more MORMON scriptures than themselves, they relentlessly try to pound into the rest of the world's brain that the Big Boys Rule!


Media Letter   
26 June 2008 — Salt Lake City  (http://newsroom.lds.org/additional-resource/media-letter)

*The following is a letter from Elder Lance B. Wickman, General Counsel of the Church to publishers of major newspapers, TV stations and magazines. It was sent out on Tuesday, June 24, 2008.




Recent events have focused the media spotlight on a polygamous sect near San Angelo, Texas, calling itself the “Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.” As you probably know, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has absolutely no affiliation with this polygamous sect. Decades ago, the founders of that sect rejected the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, were excommunicated, and then started their own religion. To the best of our knowledge, no one at the Texas compound has ever been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Unfortunately, however, some of the media coverage of the recent events in Texas has caused members of the public to confuse the doctrines and members of that group and our church. We have received numerous inquiries from confused members of the public who, by listening to less than careful media reports, have come to a grave misunderstanding about our respective doctrines and faith. Based on these media reports many have erroneously concluded that there is some affiliation between the two – or even worse, that they are one and the same.

Over the years, in a careful effort to distinguish itself, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has gone to significant lengths to protect its rights in the name of the church and related matters. Specifically, we have obtained registrations for the name “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” “Mormon,” “Book of Mormon” and related trade and service marks from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and corresponding agencies in a significant number of foreign countries.

We are confident that you are committed to avoiding misleading statements that cause unwarranted confusion and that may disparage or infringe the intellectual property rights discussed above. Accordingly, we respectfully request the following:

  1. As reflected in the AP Style Guide, we ask that you and your organization refrain from referring to members of that polygamous sect as “fundamentalist Mormons” or “fundamentalist” members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
  2. We ask that, when reporting about this Texas-based polygamous sect or any other polygamous group, you avoid either explicitly or implicitly any inference that these groups are affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
  3. On those occasions when it may be necessary in your reporting to refer to the historical practice of plural marriage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that you make very clear that the Church does not condone the practice of polygamy and that it has been forbidden in the Church for over one hundred years. Moreover, we absolutely condemn arranged or forced “marriages” of underage girls to anyone under any circumstances.

Stated simply, we would like to be known and recognized for whom we are and what we believe, and not be inaccurately associated with beliefs and practices that we condemn in the strongest terms. We would be grateful if you could circulate or copy this letter to your editorial staff and to your legal counsel.

We thank you for your consideration of these important matters.

Sincerely,

Lance B. Wickman

General Counsel

112 posted on 06/13/2012 11:32:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: muawiyah
No; there is NO implied threat here. Move along now...


We would be grateful if you could circulate or copy this letter to your editorial staff and to your legal counsel.

We thank you for your consideration of these important matters.

Sincerely,

Lance B. Wickman

General Counsel

113 posted on 06/13/2012 11:33:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Dudoight
At least non of the Morman preachers have never been recorded yelling ‘God Damn America.

Sigh...




...the presidential campaign of Mormon Church founder Joseph Smith in 1844: “Challenging Democrat James Polk and Whig Henry Clay, Smith prophesied that if the U.S. Congress did not accede to his demands that ‘they shall be broken up as a government and God shall damn them.’

Smith viewed capturing the presidency as part of the mission of the church.

114 posted on 06/13/2012 11:36:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: greyfoxx39

I will not even pretend that i could really understand the stupid post,must have been posted by a professor of some kind, but it looks to me it was meant to make people believe that is the way Mormons really think.


115 posted on 06/13/2012 11:38:29 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: Elsie

Temple Recommend question #11

Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?


116 posted on 06/13/2012 11:38:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: isthisnickcool
I’ll take a Mormon like Romney over a stupid gang banger wannabee dope smoking cocaine user like Obama any day.

For me, too. Also over a born-again (of so he claims) Christian like Jimmy Carter

117 posted on 06/13/2012 11:41:13 AM PDT by chesley (God's chosen intrument - the trumpet)
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To: RedMonqey
Good Catholics don't.

Oh?

And just which SCRIPTURE do they base this practice upon?

MORMONs can POINT to theirs!

118 posted on 06/13/2012 11:42:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: greyfoxx39
Um ... I think he misspelled "moron."

But then a moron would do that.

Strange the Times didn't catch it, though.

119 posted on 06/13/2012 11:43:33 AM PDT by x
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To: hitchwolf

Well good, I hope so. The more attacks on Mormonism the better. I hope the people in the country do find out about that cult lunacy. I for one welcome it.


You are most likely right, but i think the most dangerous religions are the ones that appear to be the real thing, need i even mention them.

The great harlot and her daughters.


120 posted on 06/13/2012 11:44:03 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: RedMonqey
So are Catholics condemned to hell for doing/ not doing so?

What has going to HELL got to do with it?

MORMONs who have a Temple REcommend® SWEAR that they 'keep the Word of Wisdom'.

I merely showed it.

If a MORMON lies about it; it seems that THEY are the one with a problem - namely that they will NOT get to ascend to the HIGHEST level of MORMON 'heaven'.

121 posted on 06/13/2012 11:45:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: RedMonqey

John 3:18

Believe it or don’t.


122 posted on 06/13/2012 11:47:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: chesley
Nor do I think he, or other Mormons, are Satanic.

Just followers of a SATANIC deception...



KJV
Galatians 1:6-9
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 
ANYBODY???
Like this fine looking fellow???
 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
 

Like THESE guys??
 
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
 


Ephesians 2:1-2
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

123 posted on 06/13/2012 11:49:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: greyfoxx39

Mormons and Muslims are brothers, both were started by deranged murdering child-molsters desiring sex with multiple children and women. Neither are good for the world.


124 posted on 06/13/2012 12:01:19 PM PDT by CodeToad (Homosexuals are homophobes. They insist on being called 'gay' instead.)
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To: Elsie

Exactly. They are lost, like all that do not know Christ. But they are no more sinners than the rest of us.

That being said, there are also many decent Muslims, but Islam it self is evil. There are decent, compassionate socialists also, but socialism is evil.

and there are true Christians who are not very strong in the faith and sometimes succumb to Satan’s temptaions and do evil things.


125 posted on 06/13/2012 12:04:37 PM PDT by chesley (God's chosen intrument - the trumpet)
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To: Colofornian
Why are you putting words in my mouth with a false quote? (I didn't say that...are you quoting somebody else...or was it just more convenient for you to create a straw man because you can't or won't more fully answer the Q?)

Hold your horses! That was ejonesie22 I was quoting, and I assumed you would have figured that out based on the ordering of the usernames on that reply, which includes ejonesie22 first, and then you.

If you're not theistic, then what does all this matter to you re: how many gods there are? (Apparently, it doesn't)

Nonsense. Do you believe first and then raise doubts? I prefer to clarify my doubts before taking a premise as fact. One of the doubts here is whom was Jesus praying to, if God and Jesus are one. It is meaningless, and I haven't yet received a convincing answer to solve this absurdity of an entity praying to itself.

126 posted on 06/13/2012 12:08:21 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: RedMonqey
Romney isn't Christian enough
127 posted on 06/13/2012 12:11:08 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Elsie
Show us YOUR balls and create something to put on YouTube.

My point was the producers of South Park, who pride themselves in sparing no one, spared muslims when threatened.

128 posted on 06/13/2012 12:11:55 PM PDT by ScottinVA (Buying Drain-O requires photo I.D... yet voting doesn't???)
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To: iowamark
You have to admire the author’s honesty in admitting that Mormonism is non-Christian.

I don't because I know that his real agenda is to set Christians against Romney.

I do hope, however, that more Mormons (and other cult members for that matter) end up finding truth. I think the recent spotlight on Mormon theology because of Romney could actually serve to do that.

129 posted on 06/13/2012 12:12:21 PM PDT by what's up
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To: ejonesie22

Thanks for the elaborate reply, ejonesie22.

I understand your motivation for not wanting to understand the ‘why’ part of why Jesus prayed to God if they are both the same, but to me, I simply cannot ignore a very blatant self-contradiction in the nature of the situation.

You say Jesus had a “separation” with God and that is why he prayed to God, but this is an assumption which might raise further questions than answers. In fact, it might even be objectionable to Christians.


130 posted on 06/13/2012 12:12:23 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett
Hold your horses! That was ejonesie22 I was quoting, and I assumed you would have figured that out based on the ordering of the usernames on that reply, which includes ejonesie22 first, and then you.

(OK, I did figure that out after I posted my response...sorry...I did jump the gun)

131 posted on 06/13/2012 12:14:13 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Elsie
Show us YOUR balls and create something to put on YouTube.

My point was the producers of South Park, who pride themselves in sparing no one, spared muslims when threatened.

132 posted on 06/13/2012 12:24:09 PM PDT by ScottinVA (Buying Drain-O requires photo I.D... yet voting doesn't???)
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To: James C. Bennett
Actually it is not objectionable at all. The Bible clearly says Jesus prayed to God which is very contradictory if one holds Jesus as Divine, the Bible as the word of God and that it is very clear there is only ONE God. Describe it how one may, a “separation” of a sort which is my term,on I have acquired over time or what have you.

As far as why, it is the WHY I said I understood, the HOW is the issue. I will learn that when I finally have my time. The why is easy, to be both fully human and fully God was the entire point, for both understanding us as well as making the final sacrifice. God would suffer no pain on the cross, yet there it is the Bible, there is one God and Jesus says several times he and the Father are one, that he is the great “I am”. And the Man Jesus suffered and died.

An “elaborate” reply, well if it were simple there would be no room for debate...

133 posted on 06/13/2012 12:29:40 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: James C. Bennett; ejonesie22
Do you believe first and then raise doubts?

Sometimes, yes.

For example, if you asked all brides -- or especially all grooms -- to clarify or even rid themselves of all significant doubts before they marry, who would?

(That's not to say that doubts don't need to be addressed head-on re: either marriage or faith...hence, my "sometimes" response)

One of the doubts here is whom was Jesus praying to, if God and Jesus are one.

OK...again...let me go back to the human dimension:

The word "intercourse" means both normal (verbal) communication as well as sexual communication. During sexual intercourse, a man and woman are "one."

We have here the "what" -- and the "who": The what dimension includes...
...the bodily communication process,
...a depiction of their genetic humanity fit together,
...and their very human oneness.

The who dimension includes TWO people -- TWO personalities -- a man and a woman.

Now, let's apply the SAME dimension breakdown to Jesus praying to His Father:

The what dimension includes...
...the communication process (praying),
...a depiction of their genetic divinity acting in concert together,
...and their very divine oneness.

The who dimension includes TWO divine PERSONS -- TWO personalities -- the Divine Father and the Divine Son.

If God is the Designer-Creator, we would expect some of the above images of Him to be at least a bit reflected in humanity. In the above, we see that.

My challenge then, to you is: If the above can be true for a man and woman acting in concert as intimately one; if Jesus says a man and woman in marriage are NO LONGER TWO -- but one; then how much MORE can the Divine God (the what...the essence...the substance) be Three Persons (the Who) acting in concert as One???

If you are married, James, you and your wife are of the same essence or substance -- humanity -- despite your differences in sex and personality. You are essentially ONE -- Jesus says.

So how is that meaningless and absurd? You don't say, "Well, since my wife and I are of the same essence -- a single humanity -- how could we possibly communicate with each other?"

134 posted on 06/13/2012 12:30:36 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: James C. Bennett; ejonesie22; Colofornian
My answer? I am not theistic, but your answer that the Trinity is a “mystery beyond full comprehension” does not explain why Jesus prayed to God if they are both one.

Because the human part of Him needed to.

That aside, define praying and explain why it's giving you such problems.

135 posted on 06/13/2012 12:37:04 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

MM praying gives many people problems.


136 posted on 06/13/2012 12:38:59 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Dudoight

At least non of the Morman preachers have never been recorded yelling ‘God Damn America.
__________________________________________

Oh yes they have...

Joey Smith the inventor of mormonism himself did that also...


137 posted on 06/13/2012 12:43:53 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Elsie
And just which SCRIPTURE do they base this practice upon?

It's not. Which is my point.

You condemn Mormoms for following edicts not in the Bible yet you give a pass on Catholic for follow Canon Law that isn't based in the Scripures.

So are Catholics to be judged by the same standard as Mormons?
138 posted on 06/13/2012 12:55:49 PM PDT by RedMonqey (Men who will not suffer to self govern, will suffer under the governance of lesser men.)
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To: metmom

Did the ‘god’ part of Jesus reside within the human body of his? Did he pray to an external entity or to something within his body?

Does not prayer establish an order - subordination?


139 posted on 06/13/2012 12:57:54 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: isthisnickcool

“I know a lot of Mormons. As a group they include some of the finest people I have ever met. I’ll take a Mormon like Romney over a stupid gang banger wannabee dope smoking cocaine user like Obama any day.”

Let’s think... hmmmmm

Stupid gang banger wannabee dope smoking cocaine user like obama

of

Stupid god banger wannabee cultist using prescription drugs to cope with the false gospel RINOmney

You’re right. Not an easy call.


140 posted on 06/13/2012 1:00:15 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: Elsie
John 3:18 Believe it or don’t.

So Mormons aren't covered under John 3:18? They say they believe in Christ.


But practicing Jews don't believe Jesus was the Son of God. Guess you won't be voting for any Jews in the future, either.
141 posted on 06/13/2012 1:03:11 PM PDT by RedMonqey (Men who will not suffer to self govern, will suffer under the governance of lesser men.)
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To: Patton@Bastogne

“That’s WHY “all” conservatives need to STOP Myth’s “presumed” GOP 2012 Nomination ...”

Hey general, lay out the plan to do that. And the percent probability for success.


142 posted on 06/13/2012 1:04:06 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: truth_seeker
.


Political "Death of A Salesman" : Romney's Pathetic Self-Implosion before Tampa (Vanity)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2880059/posts



================================================ .


2012-05-04


I haven't yet located Jim Robinson's post entitled "Frank discussion re our loss to Obama/Romney and the future direction of FR and tea party movement".

I'm sure that it's content was great.



I would like to be very careful in my next few words.

To summarize:

"Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin will be the 2012 GOP Nominees in Tampa".



I am neither an alleged spiritual prophet, or a pollyana madman.

I have worked much in politics, including with Pat Buchanan, Dole-96, Bush-43 (Florida "Ballot-Chad" Protestor") and Newt Gingrich in Florida this year.

Something in my gut intuition tells me that the O-Romney GOP E-RINO Campaign is in a state of "quiet fear and desperation", albeit in a stealth mode ...

Forgive me for the historic analogy, but the situation has a peculiar feel about it, similar to Gen. Patton's vague suspicions that the German Wermacht was "up to something" just prior to launching the 1944 Battle of the Bulge".



Yesterday (Thursday, 2012-05-03) a news report (via Fox News, of course) mentioned something about Condi Rice being a "strategic win" Vice Presidential pick for Romney.

That's peculiar, because Condi Rice has repeatedly said that she's not the LEAST bit interested in such a position ... ever. That's been Condi's staement for a couple of years now.

Why would Romney be floating such an idea (so very publicly, at the national news media level) ... when he's been crowned the presumptive "King Romney" by E-RINO insiders such as Karl Rove (ad nauseum) ?


Is O-Romney frightened by a recent (unknown) event ?


What about the Marco Rubio (Florida Hispanic "Wonder Boy") discussions about being Romney's VP ?

Have they secretly floundered ?

Did "Rock Star" Senators Marco Rubio and Paul Ryan see polling data that says that even if he becomes a Southern Baptist (next week), that Romnet is TOAST with the GOP Conservative Base ?



A peculiar quiet has settled-in among the GOP Conservative Leadership ... Newt, Sarah, Santorum, Perry ...

I do not sense that this is the "Quiet of the Vanquished" ... but rather the same "quiet before the storm" that saw General George Washington's suprise defeat of the Hessians at Trenton, a CRUCIAL turning point of the Revolutionary War ...

Newt Gingrich repeatedly discussed this EXACT metaphor during his (active) campaign ... especially the "Victory or Death" aspect ...

From the British Empire's perspective (or Fox News), wasn't Gen. George Washington's conventional military campaign "suspended", "defeated", "financially broke with furious creditors" ... with Gen. Washington personally criticized with having a "monsterous ego", "grandious delusions of victory", needlessly calling on his troops to fight a "lost cause from the very beginning" ?



I can easily imagine Fox New's Shepard Smith (and the other recent GOP talking-head) ... telecasting this Fox News report about Gen. George Washington's defeat ... and that of the American Tea Party, as well ... using the above words ... as a part of the British Empire's "official" propaganda messenger boys ...

Coincidentally, these were (approximately) the VERY SAME WORDS that Fox News and Townhall used to describe Newt Gingrich's political decisons over the past few days ...

Again ... those Fox News derogatory terms for your convenience ...

a campaign "defeated", "financially broke with furious creditors" ... with Newt Gingrich having a "monsterous ego", "grandious delusions of victory", needlessly calling on his troops to fight a "lost cause from the very beginning" ...



We Free Republic Conservatives are well familiar with the literary phrase "Who is John Gault ?"


Let me ask "you" (gentle reader) a question ...

Who is Newt Gingrich ?

Who is Sarah Palin ?

Who is Rick Santorum ?

Who is Rick Perry ?

Who is Herman Cain ?

Who is Michelle Bachman ?



Do any of these names conjure up character-descriptions like "weak", "afraid", "cowardly", "visionless", "foolhardy", "phony", "money-grubbers", "liars" ???

Hardly, and quite the opposite !

For me, every one of these men and women (from my perspective) ...

Conjure up words like "courage", "intellect", "strength", "character", "faith", "VISION" ....



So what's my premise here ?

Again ...

"Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin will be the 2012 GOP Nominees in Tampa".



The O-Romney campaign won a Pyhrric Victory with his 650-whatever delegates "won" for Tampa ...

A tactical and strategic fool ... akin to Hitler's military genius (/sarcam-off) ...

O-Romney has butchered has own (potential) Infanrty Corps the Tea Party and Free Republic Conservatives) when he "carpet-bombed" his GOP Competitors (Newt, Santorum, Perry, Cain) into leaving the field ...



O-Romney "never once" articulated a "single" original "conservative" political idea the entire 2012 primary season ...

Not a "single" one ...

Obama defeats Romney in November 2012 ... period.

Marco Rubio, Colin Powell, Paul Ryan, Juan McCain, Condi Rice ... all know that ...



When Dan Rather (hail to Feeeper Buckhead) yesterday (2012-05-04) said that Romney might defeat Obama ... it's high-time to get the Bravo-Sierra knee-high waders on ...

O-Romney is toast.

And even Mittens knows it ... that explains the "desperation" move of publicly (begging) for Condi Rice to (please) come to Mitt's rescue ...

And Condi ain't buying Mitt's baloney ...



"Successful" (presumed) presidential candidates ARE NEVER BEGGING for Vice Presidential mates ... three (full) months before the GOP Convention's door opens ...

Never.

Romney is in "strategic" level trouble. Like the German Army at Stalingrad, he's sooo screwed ...



What happens next ? Funny you ask ...



“The Plan”



1) Romney’s Hollow-Support:


No one really likes Romney (including George & Barbara Bush) …

The GOP E-RINO club (and Rush Limbaugh) only selected Romney because the other 7-8 GOP candidates wouldn’t drink their Bain Capital “betray America” kool-aide …

Supporters of Gingrich, Santorum, Perry, Cain, Michelle Bachman … loathe Romney

The only folks who voted for Mittens were 75-year old-school “Gerald Ford” Republicans absolutely terrified that they were loosing all their stock-market savings … and plus they don’t really use the internet (FreeRepublic, et al) … all these folks watch is ABC and CNN …

Of course, lots and lots of Mormons voted for Romney … which is why Romney dominated in Utah and Arizona … and got clobbered in The South …

Evangelical Christians … the political “boots-on-the-ground” Infantry of any successful GOP Campaign … are quietly scared to death over this “Mormon Used Car Salesman”



2) “Genuine Conservatives” REFUSE to Play the Juan McCain Game again in 2012:


Tea Party Members …supporters of Gingrich, Santorum, Perry, Cain, Michelle Bachman … loathe Romney

Again … the “political campaign infantry” of the other 7-8 candidates believe (with good reason) that Romney’s $$$ bought endorsements, and Willard’s “despicable” lying-through-his-teeth, and finally, Willard’s “scorched-earth” TV ad campaigns against Newt Gingrich, Rick Perry … and (almost) Rick Santorum in Pennsylvania …

Make all these potential GOP voters … and campaign workers … “vomit” at the mention of Mitt Romney …

The last time the GOP E-RINO establishment told us “Patriots” to fall on our swords for “The Party” (may it’s unholy pro-choice name be blasphemed forever) … they gave us that ...


(fill-in-the-blank) Juan McCain … who literally gave Obama the U.S. Presidency on a Silver Platter.

Not again, baby … certainly not in 2012 !



3) “The Secret Patriot Resistance” is Already Born:


OK … so Romney won a lot of delegates … but still 500 short … just like Hitler surprised the French in 1941 …

What to do, Gingrich, Santorum, Perry, Cain, Michelle Bachman ???

Suspend your campaigns. Offer a “token” quasi-soft endorsement of Mittens.

Do NOT give your delegates to Romney.

The Goal ?

Willard “stops” the negative TV ads against everyone.

All the campaign money Romney still has left (aircraft, bullets, bombs, ships) sit “useless” in a warehouse.

No more casualties … for the “good guys” … Gingrich, Santorum, Perry, Cain, Michelle Bachman

And they quietly wait for the surprise counter attack … in Tampa …



4) Mitt Romney’s “Tsunami of Severe Verbal Campaign Gaffes” … until August 2012 …


Every week Romney says something STUPID …

Every week Romney inches (crawls) back to his LIBERAL POLITICAL ROOTS … trying to win-over the political Holy Grail … the (highly over-rated “Independents) …

Every week … genuine Conservatives QUIETLY decide in their hearts … “There’s no way in Hell I’m voting for that LIBERAL idiot”

Every week … genuine Christian Conservatives QUIETLY decide in their hearts … “There’s no way in Hell I’m voting for that Mormon Anti-Christ cult member”

Every week … Conservatives in California, Texas and 12 other (Primary Voting) states that the GOP E-RINO Club just “tossed-aside” … will QUIETLY decide in their hearts … “There’s no way in Hell I’m voting for that E-RINO Pubbie Imposter”



5) Ten Days prior to the GOP Convention … Sarah Palin’s D-Day Landing …


On that day … Sarah Palin … the great conservative Peace Maker will assemble the entire group of 2012 GOP Candidates … except Mitt Romney, of course …

Sarah Palin … and … Gingrich, Santorum, Perry, Cain, Michelle Bachman …

Sarah Palin will declare Mitt Romney’s Candidacy a “complete fraud” … their ammunition will be all the Romney Campaign Gaffes and (new-old-again) “Liberal Mitt Romney” political positions …

Sarah Palin will (in her speech published on YouTube to avoid Fox News Censorship) … will personally nominate the entire GOP Ticket …

Sarah Palin will nominate Newt Gingrich for President …

Newt Gingrich, when it’s his (choreographed turn to speak after Sarah Palin) … will ask Sarah Palin to be his Vice President …

As Sarah Palin returns to the podium to accept, she will them “suggest” that Rick Santorum be US Attorney General

As Rick Santorum gives his “informal” acceptance speech, he will “suggest” that Rick Perry be the Energy Secretary …



6) An American Conservative Movement “On Fire Again” …

Over the next ten days before the Tampa Convention’s Opening Bell …

All of Romney’s uncommitted delegates will be invited to meet with all the above folks …

Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Santorum, Perry, Cain, Michelle Bachman …

Mitt Romney can’t run any more campaign ads, because the primaries are all over … Romney’s Bain Capital Campaign Money is “useless” …



7) The 2012 Tampa GOP Convention in August …


Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin win the GOP nomination on the “first ballot” …

Mitt Romney is forever “politically exiled” to the GOP’s Planet Kolob … to join his loser friends like Juan McCain and Bob Dole and Jeb Bush …



8) The 2012 Presidential Election …

Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin win the election in a “Ronald Reagan Landslide”





.
143 posted on 06/13/2012 1:15:42 PM PDT by Patton@Bastogne (Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin will DEFEAT the Obama-Romney Socialist Gay-Marriage Axis of Evil)
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To: greyfoxx39

“As we see every day on FR most Christians do not have the faintest idea of what mormon doctrine and beliefs are...yet.”

You cannot extrapolate views of “most Christians” from what you see on FR every day.

Most would agree that FR is not representative of the entire country, of even of “most Christians.”


144 posted on 06/13/2012 1:25:57 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: DannyTN

If they vote Democrat, they are NOT Christian, if they support a liberal Supreme Court, they are Not Christian, that`s basically what I am saying.

Do they believe that Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life, and that NO man cometh unto the Father but through Him.

Do they believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to God, and that homosexuality is a abomination, and that abortion is the murder of God`s children, and to vote Democrat in any way shape or form, is to be part of the crime.

That`s how I see it, do they cringe at the term BORN AGAIN, do they speak of the Christian right as morons and hateful?

That`s what I am talking about.


145 posted on 06/13/2012 1:37:32 PM PDT by Friendofgeorge (SARAH PALIN 2012 OR BUST)
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To: RedMonqey

mormons beleive in the lds jesus, which is not the Biblical Jesus.
The lds jesus is a progressed created being, not sufficient for (lds) salvation.
The Biblical Jesus is eternal and sufficient for Salvation.


146 posted on 06/13/2012 1:40:43 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: greyfoxx39

“Mainline” doesn’t include the growing numbers of Evangelical Christians.

I thought it went without saying that Evangelical Churches were NOT part of the mainline churches. I am a Evangelical Christian.

However the so called Evangelical Churches that come from a liberal Democrat point of view I have no use for, they still support abortion/homosexuality and the removal of Christ from classroom/public square and are clearly NOT Christian.

Anybody that votes Democrat, supports the evils of the Liberal Supreme Court, they can NOT have it both ways

There are some “phony evangelicals” that support Obama


147 posted on 06/13/2012 1:45:08 PM PDT by Friendofgeorge (SARAH PALIN 2012 OR BUST)
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To: Elsie
<>And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or bfamine.

I just wanted to point out that the ambiguous nature of the passage you quoted above does not necessarily mean that Mormons can only eat meat in times of winter or famine. The original version of the Word of Wisdom published as Section LXXX in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants punctuates the passage you quoted above a little differently than the version you provided above. It says:

"Nevertheless, they are to be used sparingly; and it is pleasing unto me, that they should not be used only in times of winter or of cold, or of famine."

One comma really can change the meaning of a whole sentence. If you put a comma after "not be used," then it implies Mormons can only eat meat in the winter, but if you drop the comma, suddenly it means that Mormons should eat meat not only in winter/famine, but in other times as well. The modern version of the Word of Wisdom you used puts the comma after "not be used," implying you can only eat meat in winters etc, but the original 1835 version of the D&C does not use a comma there at all, implying that you can eat meat at times outside of winter/famine so long as it's eaten sparingly. You could thus argue that that this insertion of a comma in the later editions of the Doctrine and Covenants amounts to a doctrinal change in the LDS scriptures.

By the way with regards to Catholics not eating meat on Friday, the Catholic Church does not claim, that the Scriptures say that you can't eat meat on Friday. The Church says that it is spiritually helpful to do penance every Friday to remind Catholics of the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. The normative way the Church has asked Catholics to do this is by abstaining from all flesh, meat on Friday as both an offering of penance to Almighty God for their failings and as a reminder of the Cross. Under present Church practice, Catholics may also substitute this abstention from meat with other acts of love/sacrifice as well.

148 posted on 06/13/2012 1:49:34 PM PDT by old republic
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To: DannyTN

Just an afterthought....A simple question could be asked at every Church...Is Sarah Palin their Sister in Christ?

The answer would be very telling


149 posted on 06/13/2012 1:57:24 PM PDT by Friendofgeorge (SARAH PALIN 2012 OR BUST)
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To: chesley; .45 Long Colt

Slight reminder ~ we’ve had 5 other presidents who weren’t Christians.


150 posted on 06/13/2012 2:22:26 PM PDT by muawiyah
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