Posted on 06/21/2012 8:24:00 AM PDT by fishtank
“In Calvinism the elect are not saved until the Holy Spirit gives the gift of faith.”
In Calvinism, we are saved by grace thru election, since there can be no faith unless God gives it by election.
In the Gospel, we are saved by grace thru faith.
Cite ONE Calvinist that agrees with you. You are presenting a straw man.
In Calvinism the elect are saved through FAITH which is a gift of God. The elect ARE NOT SAVED until this happens in time. Calvinism teaches that FAITH is the instrument of justification.
We are always responsible for our own sin. God didn't "make us do it".
So you don’t believe in election?
My former pastor Bob Hadley from Daytona Beach wrote a book recently on this subject. He is in New Orleans as I type this:
“Jesus commands us to repent. He didn’t say, “If you are chosen, I will make you repent. If you are not, I will not permit you to repent”.”
This is absolutely true.
However, He also says that He elects and foreordains those he saves.
Both statements are true.
We are also described (outside of Christ) as dead (as well as sick and lost and captive)
“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins” - Ephesians 2:1
Thank God that He raises the dead.
I confess the parable of the Prodigal Son as being absolutely true and applicable. But we must wrestle with the whole counsel of God; not just parts.
I believe God elects those he saves. Just as he elected Jacob, Abraham, Paul as well as those christians mentioned in Ch. 1 of Ephesians as “pre-destined” (”chosen before the foundations of the earth to be holy in His sight”).
“But does He, according to the Calvinist conception, will that all his people be saved?”
What does the Scripture say? I can’t invent God’s will or decide what it should be. I have to submit to God’s revelation of Himself.
The Bible says that God is willing that all men should repent. He sends out preachers, and calls us to witness to others, that they may be saved. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
And yet, Romans 9. He will have compassion upon those He will have compassion. He hardened Pharoah’s heart. He foreknew, He called, He foreordained, He predestined.
I must leave it at that. I can’t deny any of the truths above. God is not perfectly understandable. How could He be? He’s God; we are men.
“The whole “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion” argument is taken WAY out of context and does not mean what you think it means. “
I am happy to hear what you think Romans 9 is talking about.
“And yet you take a couple instances of individual actions and apply them to all mankind.”
I don’t know what you mean by individual actions. Romans 9, for example, is a statement of doctrine. It is not about just one individual.
I won’t repost it, but Paul talks about us, and we, and who are you, oh man, and gives Pharoah and Esau as examples, and yet speaks of the vesselS of mercy as well as the vesselS of wrath, we are all included, there is nothing individually set aside there.
Through faith...and faith is given by God.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves - it is the gift of God" Eph 2:8.
Faith is the response to God's call to Salvation and is therefore an act of the will. It does not spring from premise, reason, or intuition, nor is it imposed by God. Faith is the belief in things not seen, not known and often not knowable.
"Quid est enim fides nisi credere quod non vides?" (What is faith if not believing what you do not see?) - St. Augustine
“But we must wrestle with the whole counsel of God; not just parts.”
Indeed. But there are about 500 parts in the New Testament alone dealing with faith, and perhaps a couple dozen involving election - and election is not defined. I prefer to interpret the 20 in light of the 500, rather than the 500 in light of the 20.
OK, now do this experiment for me:
Take 10 coins and place them in a bowl.
Now, select 4 coins to remove from the bowl.
However, when you select those 4 to remove from the bowl, DO NOT select 6 to remain in the bowl.
Let me know your results.
“”For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves - it is the gift of God” Eph 2:8.”
This verse is often unintentionally misused. In the Greek, it is clear that the gift refers to salvation, not faith.
“And that (kai touto).
Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pistiv (feminine) or to xariv (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.”
http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=eph&chapter=002&verse=008
I imagine the 4 that were pulled out will forever bow down to the one who rescued them because they in no way deserved to be rescued and there was no way they could have escaped on their own.
Faith is the gift of God.
“Faith is the gift of God.”
Scripture never describes saving faith as a gift from God.
I thought God was the Creator of all things. All knowing. All seeing.
If He didn't make people in a depraved condition, then who did?
If He didn't design Creation in a manner in which a Hell existed and people naturally end up there after their lives are over, who did?
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