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Following-Truth:5 Facts That Must Be Ignored BeforeAccusing CatholicsOf “Mary Worship”[Cath & Open]
Following the Truth.com ^ | Jun 19th, 2012 | Gary Zimak

Posted on 07/03/2012 4:52:59 PM PDT by Salvation

5 Facts That Must Be Ignored Before Accusing Catholics Of “Mary Worship”!


I love the Blessed Mother! There…I said it and I’m glad I did! As a Catholic, I’m so blessed to be a member of the Church that truly honors and respects the Mother of my Lord and Savior. I must admit that, even though I’m a cradle Catholic, I didn’t always feel this way. In fact, for most of my life I didn’t understand Mary’s role or care about her too much. What a mistake! Now, after several recent accusations of “Mary worship” on my Facebook page, it’s time to stand up for my “Mom”. And, even though I love her and want to defend her honor, I have no intention of getting nasty. Rather, I’d prefer to present 5 facts about Mary. Before you accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, I ask you to take a long hard look at these facts. They have a way of poking holes in the theory that we place too much emphasis on Mary. If you still want to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, then I suggest you ignore these facts!

1. God Sent The Savior Through Mary – I list this one first because it’s really tough to downplay Mary’s importance while acknowledging that the long awaiting Messiah came to earth by being born of a woman…and that woman was Mary. Out of all the ways that Jesus could have come to earth, why was Mary chosen? If Mary was important to God, shouldn’t she mean something to us?

2. Jesus Performed His First Miracle At Mary’s Request - This is another good one. Oh I know, Jesus didn’t need Mary to turn the water into wine at Cana. She just happened to be there. OK, why then did St. John list Mary FIRST in his list of wedding guests?

On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage with His disciples. (John 2:1-2)

If Mary is not important in this saga, why is she listed BEFORE the apostles and BEFORE Jesus? St. John the Evangelist was not known for inserting extraneous details. Mary is listed first because John wants to call the readers’ attention to her presence at the wedding.

But what about “the rebuke”? You know, the argument that Jesus was telling Mary to “butt out” when He stated:

“O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” (John 2:4)

Jesus was a devout Jew and an obedient follower of the Ten Commandments. Why would He publicly dishonor His mother in violation of the Fourth Commandment? Secondly, if this was such a “put down” by Jesus, why did He go ahead and perform the miracle of changing water into wine? Wouldn’t that have been the end of the request. Of course it would, unless He wasn’t putting Mary down. When His mother interceded on behalf of the couple, Our Lord decided that His time had now come. Don’t you think Jesus is trying to tell us something? Isn’t is probable that Jesus waited until Mary’s request, in order to show us her intercessory power? Doesn’t that explain why St. John listed her first among the guests?

3. Jesus Gave Mary To John From The Cross – As He suffered and died on the Cross, Jesus made a very profound statement:

When Jesus saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing near, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:26-27)

Why, while struggling to speak as He hung on the Cross, would Jesus have spoken these words if they didn’t mean anything? Could He have been making small talk? Obviously, there was a reason that Our Lord did what He did. The Church has always believed that John represented each member of the Church and that, from that moment on, Mary became our spiritual mother. Scripture tells us that, on that day John accepted Jesus’ gift and “took her to his own home” (John 19:27). Shouldn’t we do the same?

4. Jesus’ First Graces Were Given Through Mary – This is a fact that frequently gets overlooked by those who wish to downplay Mary’s importance…and it comes straight from the Bible! After accepting God’s offer to become the Mother of the Savior, Mary traveled “in haste” to visit her relative, Elizabeth.

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the child leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:41)

According to this Bible passage, before Jesus was even born, Mary’s voice was used to deliver the graces to Elizabeth. Why? Because she’s not important? Isn’t there some other way, these graces could have been dispensed?

Not convinced? Listen to what Elizabeth had to say (also directly from the Bible)…

“For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.” (Luke 1:44)

It’s pretty hard to deny the importance of Mary’s presence and voice in dispensing these graces to Elizabeth. Did the graces originate from Mary? No, they obviously came from Jesus. However, He chose to have Mary make the journey and use her voice to deliver them. Why? Because He wants us to realize that she is important!

5. Jesus Christ Is The Sole Mediator Between God And Man - Now, this doesn’t make sense. How does this help to support the Catholic position? This is why we Catholics “have it all wrong”, isn’t it? Sorry if I’m bursting anyone’s bubble, but Catholics absolutely believe that Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) clearly states this belief:

Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners. (CCC 2634)

This Catholic teaching is supported by the following Bible passage:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, that doesn’t preclude others (including Mary) from being involved in a subordinate mediation, or intercession. Saint Paul, who made the above statement, is obviously aware of that fact since he several times urges his readers to pray for each other (Romans 1:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:25, 1 Timothy 2:1). The Catechism refers to this type of intercession as being a “participation in the intercession of Christ” (CCC 2635) and is put into practice each time we pray for one another. Asking Mary to intercede for us in no way takes away from Jesus’ role as mediator between God and men.

While I’m not naive enough to think that listing these 5 facts will render me immune from further accusations of “Mary worship”, I do think that they will have an effect if looked at with an open mind. Sacred Scripture does not contain a lot of words about Mary, but what’s there is powerful. Theologians have spent 2,000 years studying her Biblical appearances and will continue to do so. We can learn much by studying Mary’s role as documented in the pages of the Bible. If anyone wants to accuse me of being a “Mary worshiper”, I ask you to first look at these 5 facts. If you still want to point a finger, you’ll need to ignore these factual statements…

because accepting them will seriously undermine your credibility!



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; blessedvirginmary; catholic
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: Salvation
Perhaps a question would be better at times.

I had no question to ask.

Rather, I had an observation about your statement which was not logical.

51 posted on 07/03/2012 9:06:54 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Religion Moderator
For instance, "Are you a heretic?" is not making it personal

Well, I'll have to take your word for it on that one LOL.

52 posted on 07/03/2012 9:08:31 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Heart-Rest; James Mott
Your reasoning obviously rests on clearly fallacious logic (applying attributes you perceive in part of a group to the entire group). By using precisely that same kind of logic, you would have to apply the faults and evils you see in Judas Iscariot to Jesus Christ and his other apostles and followers, as they were all part of the same group. That kind of claim is plainly based on fallacious reasoning, and is simply false. (Please remember that all falsehoods come ultimately from the father of all lies.)

The fallacious reasoning is in concluding that LEADERS of an organization do NOT represent that group. Judas Iscariot was a follower of Jesus Christ and an apostle in the early stages of the ministry, had he not killed himself, do you seriously believe he would have been allowed to remain an Apostle after what he had done? People who are in leadership positions within a ministry, rightfully DO present a face of that ministry. Any organization that winks at wrong doing among its clergy - as the Roman Catholic Church has done over the centuries - demonstrates a moral failure within the ranks that are SUPPOSED to be examples of holy living. Can sinners be found in any church? Yes, we have ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but we are called to consider ourselves dead to sin and a man or woman of God is to be an example of victorious living and, if they continue in unrepentant gross sin, they should be expelled from the fellowship and most certainly from leadership positions.

The examples given in the link show leaders of the Catholic Church in high positions who either participated in criminal immorality or did nothing to stop it from happening within their jurisdictions. We are not talking about minor faults common to all humans but ongoing, criminal abuse of children that the majority of nonreligious people wouldn't dream of committing. That is far from the "we are all sinners" excuse so many people toss out. Is this the ONLY face of Catholicism? Of course not, but it cannot and should not be ignored and swept under the rug. It is an indication of a serious failure to be steadfast and of keeping the name of our Savior above reproach. It is a responsibility we ALL share - not just our leaders - and we are all put to open shame.

53 posted on 07/03/2012 9:11:16 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: daniel1212
Great material--I'll use it in my soul winning.

Blasphemous.

54 posted on 07/03/2012 9:15:16 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: nonsporting

**Blasphemous**

Anyone who ridicules these five quotes from the Bible in a negative way against Jesus Christ and against the Blessed Virgin Mary will have to answeer for their blasphemy. Indeed.


55 posted on 07/03/2012 9:18:44 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Should be interesting.

May I ask what is your intention for posting this?

56 posted on 07/03/2012 9:20:52 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; Petrosius
“How was Saul able to call Samuel through the witch of Endor? “

God doesn’t want us accessing departed souls through witches.

Not only that but Samuel was pretty ticked off about being disturbed - NOT the kind of attitude expected of one who is "supposed" to be available 24/7 for "intercession". Also, Saul lost his kingdom and, eventually, his life for this disobedient act. Going to the dead was against God's command - one He NEVER rescinded.

57 posted on 07/03/2012 9:39:22 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Saul was using a witch to communicate with a spirit. This is quite different than asking someone to pray to God for you. The point remains that the dead can hear our prayers.


58 posted on 07/03/2012 9:48:04 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius

“How was Saul able to call Samuel through the witch of Endor?”


He didn’t. It was a “familiar spirit,” a demon posing as Saul.
Note this scripture:

1Sa_28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

“Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?” The implications are blasphemous, as if a wicked human being can call up saints who are resting in the bosom of Abraham at will.

To use this as proof of Catholic theology is.... well, actually, it makes perfect sense, as praying to the dead, who cannot possibly hear all these millions of prayers every day without being omnipresent and omniscient, is also an act of blasphemy.


59 posted on 07/03/2012 9:51:58 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: Salvation

“Elijah and Moses, who had died, conversed with Jesus at the Transfiguration.”


Elijah, technically, was carried off into heaven. Whatever the case, they were both physically there with Jesus, and Jesus was not praying to them. One would think that if the Catholic dogma was true, Jesus would be praying TO them rather than having them appear in person.


60 posted on 07/03/2012 9:54:28 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: RaisingCain

Oops, I said “demon posing as Saul.” Meant “Demon posing as Samuel.”


61 posted on 07/03/2012 10:08:09 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: Petrosius

Another point to make with this incident with Saul and the witch. Note this “Samuel” did not encourage Saul to repentance. Even in the event of God taking away a Kingdom, He would not hesitate to forgive and show mercy to someone who calls.

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

As you can see, this only had the effect of driving Saul into utter despair. It made him feel doomed to hell, not once bringing to mind God’s forgiveness if he repented, though forgiveness would not necessarily imply a return of power to the throne. This result (of despair) is probably why you don’t go around speaking with strange spirits in the first place, especially none called from a Demon possessed Witch. They lie, like the witches who entangled Macbeth, speaking lies like truth to ensnare the foolish.


62 posted on 07/03/2012 10:14:33 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: RaisingCain
Demon posing as Samuel

And yet Scripture says: "And Saul answered…", not: "a demon posing as Samuel answered…"

63 posted on 07/03/2012 10:21:14 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
Saul was using a witch to communicate with a spirit. This is quite different than asking someone to pray to God for you. The point remains that the dead can hear our prayers.

Well then his sin was double! He was going to a witch/medium - which was against God's commands - and he was trying to contact the dead - ALSO against God's clear commands. Saul was trying to "get around" God by trying to get some inside knowledge and guidance on what was about to happen in battle. He was showing he did not trust God anymore. Verses that speak to God's commands about not seeking the dead are:

    1.“When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9)

    2.“Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31)

    3.“And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6)

    4.“So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)

We are NEVER told to pray TO nor FOR the dead. Through Jesus Christ - our one Mediator - we have access to the throne of grace and to Almighty God. Why would anyone possibly want to find another way to go to God when we can go to Him directly? My feeling about this is, just like when God was displeased by Saul seeking guidance from Samuel rather than God directly, it is like we forget that God is a jealous God. He alone deserves ALL glory and honor and nothing is too hard for Him. Praying to the dead to ask them to ask God about something on our hearts is, to me, a form of disloyalty. It is like being afraid to ask Dad for something and going to Mom who will ask him for us. How would that make a loving and caring Dad feel? I would think it would hurt his feelings to know his own child did not trust his love enough to come to him directly. If that is a human emotion, how much more does it mean to the Creator of us all?

He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? (Romans 8:32)

64 posted on 07/03/2012 10:24:15 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Petrosius
"And yet Scripture says: "And Saul answered…", not: "a demon posing as Samuel answered…"" -------------------------------------------------------------- You are suggesting that witches with their demons have the power to "disquiet" and bring up dead Saints against their will. You are saying that God, who has outlawed divination and all demonic works, would allow his Saints to be brought up by Demonic powers. And, finally, you are ignoring the character of Samuel himself, who always recommended an immediate righting of ways to, perchance, receive mercy of God. All of this gives to witchcraft and divination a power none of it actually possesses. This contradicts other scriptures and the spirit of God. Do you think that any Jew of that time would have thought, Oh, a witch who uses FAMILIAR SPIRITS, is actually channeling the REAL Samuel? Common sense man. Live it, love it, learn it. 1Sa_28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God. From Clarke's commentaries: "Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits - The Hebrew word אבות oboth probably signifies a kind of engastromuthoi or ventriloquists, or such as the Pythoness mentioned Act_16:16, Act_16:18; persons who, while under the influence of their demon, became greatly inflated, as the Hebrew word implies, and gave answers in a sort of frenzy. See a case of this kind in Virgil, Aeneid, l. vi., ver. 46, etc.: - “ - Deus ecce, Deus! cui talla fanti Ante fores, subito non vultus, non color unus, Non comptae mansere comae; sed pectus anhelum, Et rabie fera corda tument; majorque videri, Nec mortale sonans, afflata est numine quando Jam propiore Dei.” - Invoke the skies, I feel the god, the rushing god, she cries. While yet she spoke, enlarged her features grew, Her color changed, her locks dishevelled flew. The heavenly tumult reigns in every part, Pants in her breast, and swells her rising heart: Still swelling to the sight, the priestess glowed, And heaved impatient of the incumbent god. Pitt. Neither seek after wizards - ידענים yiddeonim, the wise or knowing ones, from ידע yada, to know or understand; called wizard in Scotland, wise or cunning man in England; and hence also the wise woman, the white witch. Not only all real dealers with familiar spirits, or necromantic or magical superstitions, are here forbidden, but also all pretenders to the knowledge of futurity, fortune-tellers, astrologers, etc., etc. To attempt to know what God has not thought proper to reveal, is a sin against his wisdom, providence, and goodness. In mercy, great mercy, God has hidden the knowledge of futurity from man, and given him hope - the expectation of future good, in its place." -------
65 posted on 07/03/2012 10:44:04 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: Petrosius

“And yet Scripture says: “And Saul answered…”, not: “a demon posing as Samuel answered…”


(Formatting with first post looked too funky):

You are suggesting that witches with their demons have the power to “disquiet” and bring up dead Saints against their will. You are saying that God, who has outlawed divination and all demonic works, would allow his Saints to be brought up by Demonic powers. And, finally, you are ignoring the character of Samuel himself, who always recommended an immediate righting of ways to, perchance, receive mercy of God. All of this gives to witchcraft and divination a power none of it actually possesses. This contradicts other scriptures and the spirit of God. Do you think that any Jew of that time would have thought, Oh, a witch who uses FAMILIAR SPIRITS, is actually channeling the REAL Samuel?

Common sense man. Live it, love it, learn it.

1Sa_28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.


66 posted on 07/03/2012 10:48:19 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: Petrosius
From Clarke's commentaries: "Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits - The Hebrew word אבות oboth probably signifies a kind of engastromuthoi or ventriloquists, or such as the Pythoness mentioned Act_16:16, Act_16:18; persons who, while under the influence of their demon, became greatly inflated, as the Hebrew word implies, and gave answers in a sort of frenzy. See a case of this kind in Virgil, Aeneid, l. vi., ver. 46, etc.: - “ - Deus ecce, Deus! cui talla fanti Ante fores, subito non vultus, non color unus, Non comptae mansere comae; sed pectus anhelum, Et rabie fera corda tument; majorque videri, Nec mortale sonans, afflata est numine quando Jam propiore Dei.” - Invoke the skies, I feel the god, the rushing god, she cries. While yet she spoke, enlarged her features grew, Her color changed, her locks dishevelled flew. The heavenly tumult reigns in every part, Pants in her breast, and swells her rising heart: Still swelling to the sight, the priestess glowed, And heaved impatient of the incumbent god. Pitt.
67 posted on 07/03/2012 10:49:13 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
"I’m not aware of any Scriptures that say the dead hear the pleas of the living"

Hi. As Catholics, we do not view Christians in heaven as "dead" simply because their earthly bodies have perished. That said, in Rev 5:8 the elders in heaven intercede for Christians on earth. In Rev 8:3 angels offer the prayers of Christians. In Rev 6:10 we are told that the martyrs in heaven are aware of things on earth. In Lk 15:7,10 Jesus tells us that there is joy in heaven over the repentant sinner, another reference that saints (holy persons in heaven, if you prefer) are aware of things on earth. And in verse 10 Jesus confirms this about angels too. Paul also indicates the angels are aware of happenings on earth, as he charges Timothy to be obedient in the presence of the elect angels (1 Tim 5:21). While I'm not a believer in proof texting, I do believe there are ample verses to support the Catholic view that angels and saints are aware of events on earth. You are, of course, free to disagree.

68 posted on 07/03/2012 11:04:39 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot (Obamacare is taxation without representation courtesy of the British subject in the White House.)
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To: RaisingCain

And yet Scripture says: “And Saul answered…” If you do not accept the plain words of Bible that is your problem, not mine.


69 posted on 07/03/2012 11:13:52 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: RaisingCain
As you can see, this only had the effect of driving Saul into utter despair. It made him feel doomed to hell, not once bringing to mind God’s forgiveness if he repented, though forgiveness would not necessarily imply a return of power to the throne. This result (of despair) is probably why you don’t go around speaking with strange spirits in the first place, especially none called from a Demon possessed Witch. They lie, like the witches who entangled Macbeth, speaking lies like truth to ensnare the foolish.

Good point, though I DO think God allowed Samuel to talk to Saul rather than it being a demon posing as Samuel and this is certainly an exception that does not prove the rule. I think it is funny that this Witch of Endor was terrified that Saul came to her, since in I Samuel 28:3 says, " Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land." Saul disguised himself and went to her at night. When he asked her to consult a spirit and call up someone for him, she answered, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?".

So Saul reassures her by telling her she won't be put to death for doing this, but she still didn't know it was the king asking for this. She asked him who he wanted brought up and he said, Samuel. It was when she saw Samuel, that she freaked out and recognized that King Saul was there with her. She starts screaming, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” I get the impression that, like most self-professed mediums, palm readers, etc., that she wasn't used to actually having a real spirit come to her. I think she was shocked that it happened at all.

When Saul believed it was Samuel that the witch was seeing - she described him to Saul, though Saul never actually saw him - and Saul laments that God doesn't hear him anymore, he asks Samuel what he should do about the Philistines. Samuel says, "Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.” (I Samuel 28:16-19)

What happened afterward was exactly as Samuel said it would. In I Samuel 31:1-6, we read:

    Now the Philistines fought against Israel; the Israelites fled before them, and many fell dead on Mount Gilboa. The Philistines were in hot pursuit of Saul and his sons, and they killed his sons Jonathan, Abinadab and Malki-Shua. The fighting grew fierce around Saul, and when the archers overtook him, they wounded him critically. Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and run me through and abuse me.” But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it. When the armor-bearer saw that Saul was dead, he too fell on his sword and died with him. So Saul and his three sons and his armor-bearer and all his men died together that same day.

This is why I don't think it was a demon posing as Samuel. The events DID happen as Samuel said they would and no demon has the power to subvert God's plans. Saul had already messed up so bad before the Lord, that he knew there was no coming back. He blew it! And David was to be the new King over Israel.

70 posted on 07/03/2012 11:16:40 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums; Petrosius

I think it is unwise to underestimate the theatrics of devils, especially since man is prone to emotionalism. That was why I included Clarke’s commentary, which described both a familiar spirit, the sense of the Hebrew word, and an example from the Aeneid of a woman in a divine ecstasy.

Also keep in mind the very first words out of this “Samuel’s” mouth, which was Who has “disquieted” him from his rest. If it was God, or some angel, don’t you think Samuel would have come up with a prepared message that did not give glory to the supposed powers of darkness?

Matthew Henry makes the same point:

“I. The spectre, or apparition, personating Samuel, asks why he is sent for (1Sa_28:15): Why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up? To us this discovers that it was an evil spirit that personated Samuel; for (as bishop Patrick observes) it is not in the power of witches to disturb the rest of good men and to bring them back into the world when they please; nor would the true Samuel have acknowledged such a power in magical arts: but to Saul this was a proper device of Satan’s, to draw veneration from him, to possess him with an opinion of the power of divination, and so to rivet him in the devil’s interests.”


71 posted on 07/03/2012 11:47:48 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: boatbums

I forgot to include this, but I also do not think it was beyond the intellect and knowledge of Satan to comprehend that Saul was in immediate danger of judgment. I’ve read some books and testimony from former Occultists, and while their “familiars” (Spirit guides, who always claim to be some dead person, or a god, or sometimes Jesus, hence “familiar”) often gave fraudulent predictions, at other times they spoke true, though probably the devils were lucky, the prediction wasn’t that incredible, or they put it into motion themselves. We should not underestimate the deceptive power of the devils.


72 posted on 07/03/2012 11:52:28 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: jafojeffsurf; aMorePerfectUnion

Well, no, that’s more of a neoorthodox subjectivist approach to Scripture. Not Sola Scriptura at all. Sola Scriptura doesn’t interfere with the proper function of the teaching ministry and authority of the church. It does assert that Scripture alone is sufficient to serve as the rule of Christian faith, that whatever is not verifiable from Scripture, while it may be useful and interesting, is not binding on the believer’s conscience. It is essentially identical to the position taken by Athanatius, who used the Scriptures as the supreme authority in his lonely battle against the Arian heresy, to which even the Bishop of Rome had briefly succumbed.


73 posted on 07/04/2012 12:46:41 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Salvation
I'm going to make one last comment against my better judgment :-) The author of the article doesn't touch upon what I misunderstood and often misrepresented about Catholics and Mary when I was a protestant. As Catholics, we have a liturgical, sacrificial system of worship much like the Jews of the Old Testament. For us, Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, and it is natural and Biblical for us to view her this way when the Old Testament is read as a type of the New (Mary being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit as the Old Testament ark was overshadowed by the glory of God). When Catholics don't establish the fundamentals of Mary as Ark of the New covenant, they invite misunderstanding IMHO.

I'll just quickly mention some parallels that former Protestant pastor and Biblical scholar Scott Hahn points out between the first chapter of Luke and the 6th chapter of 2nd Samuel, where Luke calls up imagery from David's moving of the Ark and Mary's journey to Elizabeth.

Both "arose and went" (2 Sm 6:2, Lk 1:39) into the same hill country. Both Elizabeth and David feel unworthy (2 Sm 6:9, Lk 1:43) and ask a similar question. The unborn John leaps (Lk 1:41,44) and David leaps and dances (2 Sm 6:16). Both Mary and the Ark stay for 3 months (Lk 1:56, 2 Sm 6:11). In Lk 1:42, Luke uses the same verb for Elizabeth's exclamation as the Old Testament verb used by the levites for chants of praise to God, which is significant because Elizabeth is of Levitical descent (Lk 1:5). The verb is not used elsewhere in the New Testament and is used in the Old Testament only in describing events related to the Ark of the Covenant. Now protestants reading this may say I'm grasping at straws. When I was protestant, I might have agreed with them. But in the Catholic method of reading scripture, these are not mere trivialities.

74 posted on 07/04/2012 1:35:42 AM PDT by PeevedPatriot
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To: Mmogamer
I’ve often wondered how you could pray to someone who has died, how could they hear you in Heaven? I would think only God could possibly hear all the prayers.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

75 posted on 07/04/2012 3:58:46 AM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga; Mmogamer

They can hear or do anything through God’s grace.


76 posted on 07/04/2012 4:00:38 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: daniel1212
I just have to point out your error: as Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which easily infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture);

Luk 1:42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! Luk 1:43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Elizabeth clearly refers to Mary as the Mother of her Lord.

You do beleive that Jesus is God right?

77 posted on 07/04/2012 4:05:49 AM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I’m not aware of any Scriptures that say the dead hear the pleas of the living... or any command that we should seek their assistance.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Now you can say with full confidence that you are familiar with at least one verse.

78 posted on 07/04/2012 4:09:49 AM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: Cronos

So many of these Protestants keep referring to themselves as “Bible Christians” yet when you, Petronious, Salvation, others and myself point out very clear texts they jump through all sorts of hoops to deny the plain text.


79 posted on 07/04/2012 4:19:58 AM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga

Most of the non-catholic folks debating on the RF are not Protestants. There are a few, but they got scandalised by the heterodox folks putting themselves under the umbrella of “Protestant”. You have Modalists, Arians, Jehovah’s witnesses, Unitarians, Messianic Jews and even one Moslem who thinks he iscool yammering on.


80 posted on 07/04/2012 4:41:37 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: verga

“Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Now you can say with full confidence that you are familiar with at least one verse.”

Well, no I cannot, since the prayers were to God and not to saints. I suppose you could argue that the elders smelled the prayers of the saints...

Try again.

I will assume that you must also believe ALL Christians are saints, based on this verse? Which they are.


81 posted on 07/04/2012 7:26:08 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Let me explain this to you (interpret scripture for you) The elders received the prayers and presented them to God.
For what ever reason(s) not all the prayers went directly to God they went to the elders.
<>P>As far as ALL Christians being saints I would say many have the potential to be. Some as you know are Christian in name only.
82 posted on 07/04/2012 7:38:32 AM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: PeevedPatriot

Let’s run through your verses, since not even one teaches us to pray to departed Christians - or that the can hear our prayers:

Rev. 5:8 - prayers to God are offered as incense. It does not say any of those prayers were offered or heard by the 24 Elders.

Rev 8:3 - ditto- angels are fulfilling a priestly role - it does not say the prayers in the form of incense were prayed to angel or that angels hear our prayers.

Rev 6:10 - martyred Christians cry out to God for justice - no indication is given that they watch what happens on earth, or pray for others. In fact, they are crying out for God to carry out judgement.

Luke 15:7, 10 - ah yes, rejoicing in heaven over a sinner who rejoices! Beautiful. Yet no mention is made of Christians in heaven. Nor is this indicative that anyone prayed to a departed Christian or that their prayers could be heard.

I Timothy 5:21- again, no evidence that angels are to be prayed to, or more importantly here, that any departed Christian is to be prayed to or can even hear your prayers.

We do know that God hears our prayers and that we can enter before His throne in boldness to petition Him.


83 posted on 07/04/2012 7:53:16 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: Springfield Reformer

Good explanation in a succinct way.


84 posted on 07/04/2012 7:54:56 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: verga

“Let me explain this to you (interpret scripture for you) The elders received the prayers and presented them to God.”

This is an assumption from silence- since the text doesn’t say that. Arguments from silence are never used as a basis of doctrine - or any assumption could become a doctrine.


85 posted on 07/04/2012 8:00:28 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: Salvation

BFL


86 posted on 07/04/2012 8:14:39 AM PDT by Skooz (Gabba Gabba we accept you we accept you one of us Gabba Gabba we accept you we accept you one of us)
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To: boatbums

Education of the masses, of course.


87 posted on 07/04/2012 10:02:17 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PeevedPatriot

Great post.


88 posted on 07/04/2012 10:08:55 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: verga

And since Jesus is God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, then Mary is absolutely, the Mother of God!

God bless!


89 posted on 07/04/2012 10:12:50 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

I believe John represented the faithful remnant of the Church and Jesus was giving Mary to the faithful remnant of His Church to be our mother.

John was the only apostle who remained completely faithful to Jesus to the end, just as the Catholic Church is the only Church which adheres to ALL Christ taught us. John heard Jesus say things no other disciple heard; the Catholic Church still hears the words Christ uttered that no other church will recognize or remember.

We were given Mary’s love, our Lord’s only earthly possession, just as John, the only true Follower was given His mother. Christ loved Mary and John and gave them to each other. He loved His new Church and He entrusted love of her to us.


90 posted on 07/04/2012 11:57:14 AM PDT by Melian ("Where will wants not, a way opens.")
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I didn't say those verses teach us to pray to saints or angels. I was responding to your comment that you weren't "aware of any Scriptures that say the dead hear the pleas of the living". I gave you some and you chose to interpret them differently than many others more learned than I have interpreted them. You are free to do so :)

Here's another passage I find very interesting. In Luke 16 Jesus gives us the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. After both have died, the wealthy man asks Abraham to send Lazarus with a bit of cool water, and his request is denied. Then he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them. And again the request is denied.

Does Jesus command us to pray to saints in that parable? No, not from my vantage point. But does he indicate that intercession by heavenly beings is possible? Yes, it seems to me that he does. You, of course, are free to disagree :)

In closing, I'd like to reference one of my all-time favorite verses, Hebrews 12:22-24: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel."

I love that verse! For me it summarizes what we as Catholics believe takes place at every Mass when we join the Church in heaven to praise and adore our triune God. Mass is truly a meeting of heaven and earth. Now I understand you likely don't agree with that, but I hope that helps you understand that we Catholics don't view our deceased fellow Christians as dead but MORE fully alive in Christ in heaven than they were on earth.

To Salvation, thank you for the kind email but I am not permitted to respond due to being a noob. May the Peace of Christ be with you :)

91 posted on 07/04/2012 1:01:49 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot
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To: PeevedPatriot

“I hope that helps you understand that we Catholics don’t view our deceased fellow Christians as dead but MORE fully alive in Christ in heaven than they were on earth.”

I hope you realize that all Christians believe Christians who have passed away here are alive in heaven. :-)

I believe it too - but also that they have no “inside straight with God” that you yourself as a believer have to approach God’s throne in boldness because of Christ.

I find it amazing that God’s inspired and Holy Word never commands Christians to pray to departed Christians, nor encourages us to pray to departed Christians - nor angels. If this was important at all - or was a possible source of aid - God would have done so. He doesn’t.

Instead, we are commanded to pray ourselves and assured He will hear and answer. That is a blessing.

blessings to you.


92 posted on 07/04/2012 2:10:52 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
This is an assumption from silence- since the text doesn’t say that. Arguments from silence are never used as a basis of doctrine - or any assumption could become a doctrine.

Seriously, that is your position. Let's look at the text in context:

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense,

Golden bowls full of incense being held NOT by God but by the elders who are presenting them TO God. Clearly God does not have them since there would be no need to give them to God.

Now let's see what could those bowls possibly contain? Hmmmm let's see what could they possibly be?

which are the prayers of the saints.

Oh that's right they are the prayers of the faithful (saints). So to recap the 24 elders are presenting prayers to God from the faithful. They are acting as wait for it......mediators.

93 posted on 07/04/2012 5:02:50 PM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I believe it too - but also that they have no “inside straight with God” that you yourself as a believer have to approach God’s throne in boldness because of Christ.

Now I think I understand you from another angle. No wonder it makes no sense to you that I would ask someone in heaven to offer up a prayer on my behalf. I believe that those in heaven have the veil lifted, can see more clearly, and can approach God in ways that I cannot do here on earth.

I also believe as you do that I still have to approach God "in boldness." But sometimes I want reinforcement and ask others to assist me with their prayers, those who I believe are now in God's presence in a way I cannot be while on earth.

I find it amazing that God’s inspired and Holy Word never commands Christians to pray to departed Christians, nor encourages us to pray to departed Christians - nor angels. If this was important at all - or was a possible source of aid - God would have done so. He doesn’t.

The Lord commanded us to pray to "our" father not "my" father, and so I am comfortable with a communal aspect of prayer, both with my fellow earthly pilgrims and those who've traveled into eternity ahead of me.

You believe that God's instructions/commands must be contained in scripture. I believe that scripture, oral tradition, and the church's magisterium all support each other in putting forth God's instructions. I know we differ on that. So I'll leave you with one last verse.

In 1 Thes 2:13, Paul writes, "And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers." (Underline emphasis mine, of course.) As 1 Thes is viewed by many as the first of Paul's letters and perhaps the oldest book in the NT, I understand Paul to mean that his orally transmitted teaching, including that given before he wrote his first letter, is the word of God. Please understand that I don't include this verse to be argumentative, but to show that Catholics do have scriptural basis to accept oral tradition as the word of God.

Blessings on this Independence Day to you too! And thanks for the civil dialogue :)

94 posted on 07/04/2012 5:46:56 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot
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To: verga

verga,
First, I am really happy for you to believe whatever you wish. I am not trying to argue to change your mind.

Having said that, I will discuss the passage with you.

... God knows everything, being omniscient. All Christians believe this. God hears and knows every prayer of every person and has no personal need for an angel or elder to reveal the prayer to Him.
... There is nothing in the passage to indicate anyone prayed to the 24 elders.
... We do not even know their specific identities.
... The incense is the prayers of the saints - prayers of Christians. As it turns out, departed Christians who were martyred. For that, you must read further - from Rev. 5:8 to Rev. 8:3-4.
... Because of this, we do not know that this ever happens to any specific prayers before or after this occasion.
... Nothing in the passage says or indicates people should pray to any departed Christian who is now in heaven nor that any departed Christian can hear them.
... The angels are presenting prayers as incense. Nothing is said about them interceding for Christians on earth.
... Nothing is said that indicates where they got the incense.
... Do not miss that these “prayers” are from those who are dead - martyred -

vs. 6:10 and following “And when the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their witness.”

“They called loudly to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge the people who belong to this world for what they have done to us? When will you avenge our blood against these people?” Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of the servants of Jesus had been martyred.

The angels offer the incense to God in Rev. 8:3-4. When the smoke of the prayers for justice reach God’s nostrils, He begins to carry out judgement on the earth. This occurs in the future during the end times, when God pours out His judgement on the earth and on those that do not love Him. God answers their prayers for justice in the following 7 Trumpet Judgements upon the earth.

For completeness, I should also note that angels _were_ described as the bearer of prayers to God in inter-biblical Jewish literature (cf. Tobid 12:15; III Baruch 11)... though never in the Hebrew scriptures. The idea of incense representing prayers is used several times in Scripture (cf. 8:3–4; Ps. 141:2; Luke 1:10). Even in these examples, there is no command to pray to anyone but God - not departed saints, nor angels.

... Even if you were to separate this passage from its context by saying that the prayers in Rev. 5:8 are different than the prayers of the martyred saints that are offered to God in Rev. 8:3-4, you will be left with prayers in 5:8 that are never offered to God.
... You also are left with no explanation for how the angels got the prayers, if it was a one time event, or what they did with them, and without anything in scripture that tells us to pray to angels or says angels can hear us.

=> What we can learn is that the prayers of the saints are precious to God, filling golden bowls as fragrant incense before Him.

I’ll close on that bright note, again saying, I do not intend to change your view. It is enough to know you find grace, comfort and strength in Christ.

Blessings to you.


95 posted on 07/04/2012 6:21:45 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: PeevedPatriot

“No wonder it makes no sense to you that I would ask someone in heaven to offer up a prayer on my behalf. I believe that those in heaven have the veil lifted, can see more clearly, and can approach God in ways that I cannot do here on earth.”

Since Scripture never says they can hear you, yes, it makes no sense, other than you want to believe it.

In 1 Thes 2:13, Paul writes, “And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.”

Paul preached the Gospel message to the Thessalonians and they received it for what it was - the Word of God. It then bore fruit in their lives, confirming that they indeed received it and it was true. This is not a blanket statement for oral tradition.

blessings to you.


96 posted on 07/04/2012 6:27:24 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: PeevedPatriot

“And thanks for the civil dialogue :) “

Back at you. It is nice to talk without the assumption of hostility.


97 posted on 07/04/2012 6:29:01 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: verga

That is a good observation on your part, and yes, Jesus is God based upon the substantial weight of Scriptural evidence, being ontologically the Son of God. But the issue is that of the careful use of language in ascribing titles in Scripture to God and man, with the objections to ascriptions to Mary including some which may be technically allowed, but are objectionable (as the link explained) as being unnecessary and inferring more than is written (1Cor. 4:6) as part of an exaltation of Mary which does just that.

Like as Ratzinger says “Co-redemptrix” departs “too great an extent from the language of Scripture and the Fathers” and gives rise to misunderstandings, so my objection here is that while “mother of God” may be technically allowed in the sense that she was the vessel through whom the body God had prepared (Heb. 10:5) came, and that she cared for the incarnated God to whom she owed her own existence, yet she is never actually called that, let alone that being a title, and it comes too close to inferring an ontological oneness with God.

As for Mary being called the “mother of my Lord,” whether Elisabeth was recognizing His Deity, or referring to Him in the Jewish Messianic sense as a ruler/deliverer from God, yet this is not needed for “mother of God” to be allowed in the aforementioned restricted sense. But again, the objection is to its warrant as part of a hyper exaltation of Mary not seen in Scripture.

In addition, even the distinguishing use of “Lord” and “God” attests to the careful use of titles, as without negating His Deity, the Holy Spirit typically makes a positional/ functional distinction between God and the Lord Jesus. For the “Lord” aspect mainly describes the Divine Christ's role as the administrator and judge of all, for while He is Divine, and one with the Father as being God, yet “God has made that same Jesus...both Lord and Christ,” reigning over all until He has put all enemies under his feet, and then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (Acts 2:34-36; 1Cor. 15:25,28)

And as it is also technically true that Jesus was the son of David, that would make his wife and by extension Mary's mother, etc. one the grandmothers of God. But such formal titles are too prone to be misleading and are unnecessary, unless your intent is to exalt a person with as much attention and supererogatory of praise as possible, based upon extrapolations of some text (much in distinction to Paul, whose sufferings and labor of love the Holy Spirit abundant documents). And i am sure the humble and holy Mary of Scripture would refuse such inordinate devotion, versus the degree of attention and honor Scripture plainly gives her, and affirm, "I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away. " (Job 32:22)

98 posted on 07/04/2012 7:47:46 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
That is a good observation on your part, and yes, Jesus is God based upon the substantial weight of Scriptural evidence, being ontologically the Son of God. But the issue is that of the careful use of language in ascribing titles in Scripture to God and man, with the objections to ascriptions to Mary including some which may be technically allowed, but are objectionable (as the link explained) as being unnecessary and inferring more than is written (1Cor. 4:6) as part of an exaltation of Mary which does just that.

The problem with you understanding is that scripture itself disagrees with you. Thomas in addressing Jesus in the upper room: Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus was recognized as God just as John the Baptist recognized him in utero and why Elizabeth was able to address Mary as the Mother of God. all this was accomplished through the Holy Spirit.

99 posted on 07/04/2012 8:09:41 PM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga

Perfect Union’s point is worth expanding upon. Note the next scripture:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We are made KINGS, overcomers of the world and greatly preferred by God, and PRIESTS, a Holy Order, washed in His blood (and not of ourselves), with direct access to God’s throne. There is, therefore, no need for any extra mediator between us and Christ. Christ is the sole mediator between us and God. We are the Saints, and we are equal to any Saint in heaven, with all the same rights and privileges.


100 posted on 07/04/2012 11:03:53 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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