Skip to comments.Why Did the Jews Reject Christianity?
Posted on 08/12/2012 9:20:00 PM PDT by Phinneous
A Jewish class on why Jews do not accept Christianity. I post for Jews to self-educate and for Christians to understand the Jewish point of view--not that it matters (that they do.)
I understand and I will comply. May I just say that it is one thing to have an “open” or “town square” style of debate, but another to have people posting that my religion is wrong, my understanding of my religion is wrong, my rejection of their savior is wrong with the unavoidable consequence that I am doomed to eternal damnation?
Let me offer an example of the distinction as I understand it: I may argue with you about the meaning of certain texts or about the correct understanding of religious doctrines, but I may not (or should not) argue that the fact that you maintain your faith is an error or argue that your faith is the wrong faith.
In other words, shouldn’t there be a rule against proselytizing on these threads?
Good morning... Post 98.
Hehe... Trying to keep it simple. Less confusion that way. :)
You’ve been on FR a long time. Do you really not know what kind of place it is? You never browsed the Religion Forum before?
OK. The rules are the rules.
Actually, in over a decade, I haven’t perused this forum on FR either because I simply do not have an interest in it. I don’t have this topic list on my sidebar and got pinged here.
I can’t say I’ve “browsed” the religion forum before, but I have engaged many times on threads of this nature and I have been equally outspoken about what I think is very wrong: proselytizing types of posts, criticism of a person’s faith or beliefs and condemnations. No one ever told me in all that time that it was wrong for me to protest against those posters or to tell them where they can shove it. Now that I know, I feel liberated. Now I can express my own candid views of the falsehood of other faiths as long as I do it politely. /s
Paul here is emphasizing that the earthly Jerusalem is in slavery...i.e. the law is insufficient and brings only slavery. The heavenly Jerusalem for which one must have faith is the one to be believed in. The heavenly Jerusalem is the real fulfillment of Isaac birthed from Sarah...the child of promise.
Physical Jerusalem will continue to be trodden down until the end because it is an earthly city just as all the others. Many believe that when Jesus talks of the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled (that era being the expansion from the Old Covenant under the Jews to the New Covenant to the rest of mankind) is the time of the end.
Exactly. No temple.
And last time I checked, my feet were firmly planted in the US, not Israel.
I see what you did there :D
The same reason chrstians reject islam, and sikhism, and bahai, and mormonism, and . . .
When your people cannot defend themselves, christians often step in. Please don't paint us all with the same brush. Have a good day.
Long time no hear! hope you are doing well my friend!
Just want to add something to what you say right here:
Prayer, Repentance, Charity, Fasting all atone for sin. Plenty of scriptures available to show that. I believe that as well, however: It is hard to know the *Sincerity* of anyone by outside appearance works and deeds...
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mark 7:22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
IMO that is what makes every person *Soiled* and unclean in the face of ALmighty GOD....
Men can fool other MEN but never GOD....He sees us for who we truly are....
GOD Bless you and Shalom!
The Religion Forum has alot of debate on right and wrong doctrines from
I don’t believe anyone means any person any religious harm, people are just passionate about what they believe...
We are Free People unlike the Arab World, so it is GOOD IMHO that we can discuss and debate topics that are about the CREATOR for we are all created in his image....
Thin Skinned people are Liberals not COnservatives...:)
“The Messiah is cut off,”
As mentioned previously, this is a bad thing...there have been many bad messiahs...and there is no “THE” messiah in Daniel. Just messiah...that is a tampering of the Hebrew. As a matter of fact, in all of Tanakh (OT) there is not one THE (def article) in front of messiah.
You didnt really answer B and C.
“Isa 53:1-12 He is offered as a sin offering “
The servant of Isaiah is identified multiple times in Isaiah 40 through 54. It is Israel, Jeshrun, Jacob and Zion. All are poetic prophetic collective nouns for for Jewish people corporately. Not once does Isaiah ever use or describe the servant as “messiah”. Not once. The prophet Isaiah constantly switches from a “singular” sevant...Jacob...and plural servants. for example.
Is 43:10 (Israel) You are My witnesses,(plural) declares the Lord,
And My servant (singular) whom I have chosen,
The sin offering in Isaiah is an Asham or guilt offering. This does not help the christian argument, it makes it fall.
An Asham only atones for a limited type of sin. It is NOT a chatat. And per Lev 5:11, even FLOUR atones...not a sacrificed animal. Also, the animal had to be killed on the altar, blood sprinkled on the sides of the altar, the animals fat and ofal burned. Jsus suffocated on a Roman torture device, his throat not slit, no blood sprinkled on the altar, his fat and ofal not burned.
Is 53 does not change the fact that G-d (Deut 12, Jer 19) says he HATES human sacrifice and it never entered His mind.
G-d tells us never to engage in it. That is what the pagans do, so dont act like them. So, the church expects us to believe that G-d then acts like a pagan, and kills off his own human mortal son? G-d breaks His own Torah? G-d forbid!
“The Hebrew word translated to virgin is Almah,”
No. The Hebrew word for virgin is betulah. Almah means young woman. It says nothing about her state of sexual purity. Betulah does. Isaiah himself uses the word betulah in later passages, so clearly, if he wants to make it virgin, he knows which hebrew word to use.
Also, G-d is not going to take a mans wife and through a spirit agent, knock her up, giving the impression to all of a fornicator and adulterer.
Also, The whole point of Isaiah 7:14 is to give KING AHAZ a sign. It was not a virgin birth that was a sign to him, but the AGE of the child. By the time the child grew to know right from wrong, the two Kings who sought to destroy Israel would be killed. That was fulfilled in fact at that time. A virgin birth 700 year in the future in of NO value to Ahaz. And the implication would also be that there was 2 virgin births. Which of course is wrong.
13:They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
David frequently uses language that shows him “surrounded” by enemies...like bees..like water...like dogs...and this is the point of Ps 22. It is about David...feeling threatened...not about a future event.
I am very familiar with teh K’ari and K’aru debate. It is not K’aru. In all other places where K’ari is found, the christian bible gets it right. “Like a lion” it is only here that they wrongly make it Pierced.
I know it does no good to argue points with someone that hasn't been visited by the Holy Spirit. That was the point of my post. The Holy Spirit is your teacher and advocate when He abides in you. The Jews have longed for a new Temple ever since the old one was destroyed, but they don't realize it's not needed anymore. It is just needed for the last days to take place and the Jews to make their next mistake and follow a false messiah. The chosen people were chosen to reveal Christ through their culture, traditions, and Laws.
We are taught that man is evil and can never atone for his own sin. Blood sacrifice is a temporary fix and that isn't even possible without a Temple. A Messianic Jew is simply called a "Believer", as he/she believes the OT and the NT are harmonious, not contradictory. If you look at the Jewish Feast days, they are commanded by God in Scripture, but why, and why on specific days? Jesus fulfilled all Feast days perfectly as the purpose for the Days were spelled out a thousand years before. The Passover Lamb was killed the exact hour Jesus took His last breath on the cross. He was "Unleavened Bread" and the First Fruit of the Dead. He will call us to the Marriage Feast on Rosh Hashanah. We are told this period marks the beginning of troubles on Earth and the time will be shortened to 7 years from ten years or no one would survive to Yom Kippur, Judgement Day. To follow Jewish tradition, it would have been 10 years. Then Tabernacles comes when Jesus come to Earth to rule and reign for 1000 years. The Jews celebrate Jesus. they just can't put the days and the Book together. Just because Christians have different sects and many make mistakes, doesn't mean they are all wrong. If you ask a Catholic if they worship Mary or worship the cross, they should say no,( I know what it looks like sometimes), they worship Jesus that was on the cross. A Protestant will tell you that is why they have an empty cross in their church or maybe even no cross at all. The Catholics remind themselves of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the Prots worship the risen Savior. I've never heard anyone say you should worship the cross or Mary. ( I know many Catholics that would dispute that.) This Jewish teacher is mistakenly saying Christians are told to worship foreign gods or idols, but that is a wrong premise. Jesus is, or should be the center of our worship and we are taught that He is God, a God with 3 parts. In Genesis, God refers to Himself as "Us" and "Our",.... plurals. The Spirit of God "brooded" over the waters to create the Earth. In John, we are taught that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jesus explained that He was the Living Word when He was here.
I don't expect to convert you or anybody else, but let's just say, the Bible is clear and complete for me and others sometime look for some way to argue. I watched the video clip and it just looked like the guy was reaching for an excuse to justify his non belief. That's fine, that's what all non believers do. When and if you are ever visited by the Holy Spirit, you will be "Born Again" and things become clearer,......different than before. A dead person doesn't know they are dead. When you become "alive", then you know you have been dead all your life. You can go out to the center of a highway and scream at a squashed armadillo and tell him a truck is coming. He will just continue to lie there staring up at the buzzards circling, as he can't see or hear you and is unable to move even if he could hear you. Those are the "miracles" Jesus performed in His ministry. He healed the blind, deaf, and crippled from their afflictions, and suddenly, they were whole. If Jesus wanted to He could have raised all the dead, cured all the blind, deaf, and crippled, with just a Word, but He only healed a few. He was merely showing us our infirmities and that we needed a Savior, a Physician, to bring us back to life to God. We died in the Garden to God. God said we would die if we ate of that one tree and we did it anyway. Adam lived on for several hundred years and one might say God lied about the dying part, but we did die to God, we were no longer Spiritually alive to Him. He has replaced our dead Spirit with His own so we can "Tabernacle" with him. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him.
God makes the "rules", not some Jewish guy on the internet. We do not worship crosses or Mary. Jesus isn't a foreign God nor is He an Idol. Everything was created for Him and by Him and He wrote the Bible through the prophets to reveal Himself to His people.
This is why Jews are sticklers to Torah. You won’t get on a Torah-true Jew’s nerves asking about how their sins are forgiven—I understand where your comment comes from but it lacks understanding of Judaism, Jewish law, and philosophy. Just like we know Christians lose mountains of meaning by using translations. (someone already responded to how a Jew’s sins are forgiven...)
But in a broader sense, the purpose of the class I posted, was for Jews to learn why JC is no Jewish prophet. Since I’m sure the comments came a flyin’ before anyone listened—the answer is that all the miracles in the world mean nothing (except an ability to perform miracles) if the performer posits changing the Torah —adding or subtracting.
By the way, Jews save lives on the Sabbath-— I don’t know any Christian source beyond a passing interest in Revelations (around the time Damien Omen and other great horror movies came out). It’s not canonized for Jews and is never a proof for a Jew.
2 million Jews saw and heard, en mass, G-d at Mt. Sinai. No prophet of Jews would ever alter that (it’s in the class.)
HOWEVER— the good news is (in the forum’s new spirit of proselytizing;-) that G-d gave 7 commandments, objective commandments, to every non-Jew (christian, Budhist, Muslim et al). So I hereby re-rosthelytize to Jews to listen and then find your local Orthodox rabbi to attend a Torah class, and to non-Jews to learn about the 7 mitzvos (commandments) G-d expects of them (and tell a friend)— http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/Universal-Morality.htm
You are mistaken. God did not kill Jesus.
Sinful mankind did that.
God only made the provision and Jesus was willing because there was no other bridge between our world and the righteousness of Heaven.
HI Tarah! Good to see you. I took a break :o).
Jeremiahs words are true for the UNrepentant person. But G-d knows our heart and compares the condition of our heart to our actions.
Ps 51:16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
The Nenevites prayed, fasted and repented. G-d knew they were sincere and forgave them. No blood. No sacrifice. No Jsus.
Shalom shalom Tarah!
David was speaking about himself in this psalm: Psalms 2:7 I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son [ בְּנִי (bNI)]; this day have I begotten you." The New Testament "quotes" this verse as if God were speaking to Jesus (Acts 13:33), which is the likely motivation for the KJV translators to have changed "son" to "Son" at this verse. King David is the "son" here, a figurative characterization similar to the way God referred to Solomon as His "son".
Why did Israel reject Christ?
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
(29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(30) For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
(31) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
(32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(33) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
(34) For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
(35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
(36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
I don’t know what you’re getting at. Jews reject JC because he purports to change the Torah. Is your post the non-Jew version of why Jews rejected?
blasater1960 already went over a significant chunk of conflicts you describe in an earlier post in this thread.
According to our covenant with G-d, He would never take a human form. We can pretty much stop there.
"Kiss the son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way for his wrath can flare up in a moment."
This kind of attitude is far different from the humility David reflected in other psalms where he glorified God and not himself.
"the rulers gather together against the Lord and against his anointed one"
Again, David didn't usually set himself up in such an exclusive way with God as though it were he and God in partnership.
Quite a different spirit from the rest of the psalsms.
“I was taught there was no remissions of sin without the shedding of blood”
Nope! Hebrews 9 is incorrectly quoting Leviticus 17.
“After Jesus, there was no more need for shedding blood for the remission of sin.”
Then why are sacrifices returning? Ezek 44.
“Abraham said God would provide the Ram for sacrifice......., and He did.”
We are not told that this is a sin sacrifice. When G-d stops Abraham...that is G-d telling Abraham...NO human sacrfice. Also, Dt 12, Jer 19.
“Any Jew that believed God would provide this “Ram” would receive Salvation without having to sacrifice animals.”
It never says that anywhere in the Torah, Prophets or writings.
We dont accept the transfiguration. If Elijah was standing there. How could John the Baptist be Elijah like Jsus claimed?
Your anti-christ is supposed to claim to be “God” right? We already rejected the man from Nazareth for making that claim. We are not about to accept anyone else who also makes that claim.
From what I have read in the NT and through history, the holy spirit is not effective. Shortly after the big release of the HS at pentecost, Paul has to write letters because they ALREADY had begun back sliding and getting into sin. Why? If the HS is indwelling in them? The church in the crusades, inquistion, pogroms, and the holocaust slaughtered the Jewish people. How could that happen if the HS leads the christian into truth?
Gotta run for now.
“This type of self-aggrandizement would be unusual for David.
“Kiss the son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way for his wrath can flare up in a moment.””
It doesnt say Kiss the son in Hebrew. That is another change the church made. Here, read this through.
The capital is because the christian interpretors were understanding that David could not intend "son" as directed to himself for the reasons I designated above.
They didn't believe that David would presume himself to be considered God's son in the pagan fashion.
“You are mistaken. God did not kill Jesus.”
Of course “God” killed him. In the Garden Jsus tried to get out of it. But Jsus has NO FREE WILL. He couldnt have siad “no...not going through with it.” And besides...you teach that Jsus is “God” So, technically you have “God” killing himself.
Maybe a better discussion would be why do we Jews feel it necessary to create such things to explain why we DON’T believe something in another religion.
But to make things perfectly clear, it is not that I temper recruiting or don’t feel like it, but that simply Jews do not recruit converts period. :)
No, it was our sin that killed him.
And lest you believe that you or I would not have killed him had we been there...even if you or I were the only person on Earth with Jesus we would have killed him just as Cain killed Abel.
In ourselves, we cannot abide with perfect righteousness.
Jesus choice always was to submit to the Father i.e. always to do what is righteous. He was tempted in all ways but always chose the right.
“to explain why we DONT believe something in another religion.”
I’m am not entirely sure if this is what you mean..but..for me it all distills down to Dt 13 and 4.
Paraphrasing...If anyone comes to you and tries to alter your worship, to something, ANYTHING, different from what your Fathers learned at Sinai...REJECT it.
It really is that simple. Did our Fathers at Sinai know of a Triune god? no. Did they know of a hybrid godman son of god? No. Were they told that the Law would stop one day? No. On the contrary.
So thats it then. No Jsus for us. PERIOD.
Yes, Deut 13 and 14 but I was taught the mere act of putting something together formally explaining why we reject it is actually a form of recognition.
Nice job distilling the class (shiur) I posted. :)
“He was tempted in all ways but always chose the right. “
G-d can not be tempted. And Jsus could not have sinned if he wanted to. As a hybrid godman, his humanity could never has sinned while intertwinned with “God” in his body. Again...he had no free will. Therefore, he was nothing like us.
Nice job distilling the class (shiur) I posted. :)
Really? I’m ashamed to say I didnt look at it. :oO I wasnt sure where you were coming from at the time! I just jumped into the postings! I’ll have to go back a read it now...sorry
Jesus was tested in all things as we are but never fell. That is how he is like us...tested.
But unlike us He is God...He never fell.
His choice as the perfect man (unlike Adam) was to submit to the Father.
Thanks blasater for your response on the last question!
Just another question, I would like to hear your reply on...
When the Angels appeared to Abraham, they were in the form of a human being, they even had the ability to eat food, so in essence G-d has allowed some kind of divine intervention that can transition a spiritual entity to come fourth in a physical entity...In fact those Angels when they went to Sodom were to blind the people in Sodom with obviously super-natural abilities....
So my question to you is do you believe G-d has the Power to transition his divine likeness into a Perfect Human Being? or does he only have the Power to transition Angels into human form from your perspective?
One more thing: Do you think the writings of Enoch are valid? I have been reading the writings in Enoch where the Angel U’riel teachig Enoch regarding the Universe/Heavenly realm...
“Is the Dome an abomination? A temple of satanallah, on the temple mount?
Does islam cause desolation? Look at how it ravages nations.
The abomination that causes desolation stands in mockery today.”
~ ~ ~
It isn’t a mystery, the two are written together, the “abomination of desolation” and the “continual sacrifice.”
Satan mimics the Holy SACRIFICE of the Mass with Black Masses. Satanists steal consecrated Hosts to desecrate them. The “abomination of desolation” takes place when the anti-Christ attempts to abolish the Eucharist.
If you say no, God is going to show the world in the soon Awakening (Rev 6:15-17), the 2nd Pentecost. Scripture and Prophecy states it, God wants us all to believe the same...get ready.
- - -
GOD SPEAKS WILL YOU LISTEN
A soul who does not partake of my Eucharist remains a spiritual baby. Just as a human baby must eat solid food to grow to adulthood, so spiritually you must receive my graces through the sacraments to mature to spiritual adulthood. The body must be fed to grow. Likewise, the soul must be fed to grow and mature. Satan knows this truth. This is why he has deceived many of my people with false interpretations of my scriptures.
Many teach the physical nation of Israel is the fulfillment of my scripture. Many teach the anti-Christ will resume the Jewish sacrifice in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem to constitute the abomination of desolation. This is a false teaching, not from God, but from human understanding. My son, in the book of Daniel, the persecution by the Jews under Antiochus can be considered a partial fulfillment of the abomination of desolation. But the complete fulfillment has not yet taken place. At my death, the veil in the temple was rent in two and the old sacrificial covenant was replaced by my new covenant. My sacrifice on the cross was the final sacrifice for my peoples sin. I am the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. I am the seed of Abraham, the son of David, in whom all the nations of the earth are blessed. My nation of Israel is my church, not the modern nation of Israel. My people are now all those who become part of my church through sanctifying grace. The complete fulfillment of the prophecy from Daniel of the abomination of desolation will occur: when the continual sacrifice of the mass is abolished by the false prophet and the anti-Christ.
Acceptance of the protestant doctrine of the mass by anti-pope will be the fulfillment of the prophecy. The temple of God is my Holy Roman Catholic Church. My faithful remnant will be persecuted worldwide with the mass taking place underground. These conditions will be similar to the early persecutions by the Romans. The Roman persecutions were a foreshadowing of the persecution and time of the anti-Christ. Remember all this will be allowed and take place according to the will of my Father in heaven. Scripture must and will be fulfilled.
page 98 ~
Chasidim perform Jewish outreach to bring secular Jews back into the fold, so to speak. So maybe I should be a bit more clear that we do not recruit outside of our faith.
Jews for Jesus are Christians, like Messainic Jews or whatever flavor of the day movement is to recruit Jews to abandon Judiasm and adopt Christianity.
I do not think Jewish outreach applies to Atheists that happen to have been born to Jewish parents...
If you don’t believe in G-d, you are not going to convince them that there is, because it is *Faith* that enables you to believe in the first place....
“Jews for Jesus are Christians, like MESSIANIC JEWS or whatever flavor of the day movement is to recruit Jews to abandon Judiasm and adopt Christianity.”
~ ~ ~
Messianic Judaism is a modern Protestant sect begun by a
Baptist minister trying to convert Jews to Protestantism.
It amounts to using a few Old Testament terms and preaching
the “altar call which is Faith Alone”, “Bible Alone”, etc.
There are actually splits off already from Messianic Judaism, sound familiar?
Hrm, I will take a shot.
Angels are metaphysical beings, not man.
Book of Enoch is not part of Tanakh and contains a lot of conflicts with it.
“distilling the class (shiur) I posted. :)”
Oh, I just listened to it. That was good. He brings up a lot of good points. I liked his point that (paraphasing again) Just the fact that there is a NT and the Tanakh is relegated to “OT” status....invalidates the message of Yeshu. For Torah says over and over...it is forever, to be unchanged. Throughout your generations.