Skip to comments.Why Did the Jews Reject Christianity?
Posted on 08/12/2012 9:20:00 PM PDT by Phinneous
A Jewish class on why Jews do not accept Christianity. I post for Jews to self-educate and for Christians to understand the Jewish point of view--not that it matters (that they do.)
1. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.
2. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our G-d He was, He is, and He will be.
3. I believe with perfect faith that G-d does not have a body. physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all.
4. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is first and last.
5. I believe with perfect faith that it is only proper to pray to G-d. One may not pray to anyone or anything else.
6. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.
7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses is absolutely true. He was the chief of all prophets, both before and after Him.
8. I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that we now have is that which was given to Moses.
9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will never be another given by G-d.
10. I believe with perfect faith that G-d knows all of man’s deeds and thoughts. It is thus written (Psalm 33:15), “He has molded every heart together, He understands what each one does.”
11. I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.
12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.
13. I believe with perfect faith that the dead will be brought back to life when G-d wills it to happen.
“So...youll be adding the crusades, the inquisitions, the burning of the Talmud, expulsions from every Christian country, ghettos, pogroms, blood libels, anti-Jewish decrees, such as Jews being barred from professions, businesses, guilds, trade, public office, the wearing of humiliating clothes, hats or symbols, etc., etc., etc. (all by the church) as perversions of Christianity? So, basically, for all its history, right through the Nazis, Christianity has been perverted in one way or another on a mass scale, and often coming right from the Pope.
Please dont tell me about Christianity throughout history. With regards to the Jewish people, it has an overall awful record.”
~ ~ ~
Lumping everything you believe of Christianity into the bad, not true.
Two examples of the good, what of all those Christian buildings with Catholic names on them called hospitals and schools dotted around the world for centuries?
And in Judaism, what of Catholic Schindler? His act of Christian love to save those being tortured and killed in the camps? The Holy Father hid Jewish people in the Vatican to save them.
I challenge you, watch the Eucharistic miracle Youtube,
THINGS TO COME, A Journal of Biblical Literature Vol. I.], JUNE, 1895., [No. 12., pp. 233-236.
The Signs of the Times.
THE JEWISH NATIONAL MOVEMENT.
THE formation of a MACCABEAN SOCIETY is a significant Sign of the Times. It is remarkable that just at this time the Maccabean exploits should be specially called to mind.
* * *
The Jewish World of April 19th, says : "A perusal of the Chovevi Zion Quarterly, and of Colonel Goldsmid's manifesto, the major part of which we publish in another column, will be enough to show that the work of the colonization of Palestine is making real progress, and the reasons why that progress is necessarily slow. Perhaps it is not a matter for regret that we cannot immediately form a semi--independent State in the Holy Land, or anywhere else. Every true Jew must be in sympathy with the aims of the Chovevi Zion, and even with their views of the way in which those aims are to be worked for. Colonel Goldsmid points out, however, that it is not the object of the society to colonize Palestine with the Jews of England, or of any one country, but with Israelites whencesoever they come. Before the realisation of such a scheme can be a blessing to humanity, or even in the true interests of Israel, there must be a closer rapprochement between the Jews of every country ; not only in national and religious feeling, but in the elevation of ideal."
* * *
The following cuttings from Jewish papers are all of them significant evidence as to what is going on around us.
"When Ezra invited the Jews of Babylon to strive for the return to Palestine, the worthy pietists replied that it was an interference with the work of Providence. It may be of advantage to 'A. S. T.' to learn that of those forty-two thousand Sabbath-breakers who came with Ezra from Babylon to Palestine sprang Simon the Just, Judas Maccabæus, Hillel and Johann Ben Zakai, and the Talmud, and all that we hold dear in Judaism ; while the descendants of those worthy pietists who remained in Babylon were lost to Judaism forever. Some cavil at the National Idea because it is not congenial to their fashionable view of patriotism, we beg of them to reflect! When European sentiment will adopt the National Idea, We shall form an Internal question everywhere.
* * *
"Nationalism is a Mosaic institution, solitary, without exception, throughout antiquity. Empire, Catholic, Cosmopolitan, Communistic, never had any idea of nationality. Judaism only preached individual nationality. With the independence of Greece, some think with the Netherland rise, this Jewish aspiration became the battle cry of modern Europe. Belgium, Roumania, Bulgaria, and others have followed with the same claim.
* * *
"A private meeting of 'Daughters of Zion' was held in Sutherland Avenue, W., and a public meeting was decided upon. Several influential ladies are expected to take a leading part in this National Movement. This makes a new epic in Zionism. The honour of taking the initiative falls upon the Misses Isaacs, and they will thus earned the gratitude of all Zionists."
* * *
"We have received a mass of congratulatory letters on our suggestion of erecting a university at Jerusalem, many promising aid as soon as an official announcement is made.
* * *
"It has become customary amongst lovers of Zion in Russia to collect at B'riths or weddings for the farm labourers in Palestine, to aid them in becoming proprietors as colonists. We are asked to state that an attempt has been made here successfully. We shall be pleased to forward any money collected.
* * *
"We are extremists. Agriculture was unknown and forgotten by us, when suddenly it was raised to a lofty pinnacle. All the Zionists gave their hearty support to the agricultural movement, and now nothing else is supported. Agriculture is certainly the basis of the National Movement, but manufacture and commerce have also their claim upon us.
* * *
"All who love Zion raise your voice for unity. We need it now ! The time for earnest work has began ! We have the deed of property on our ancestorial lands, the Anglo-Jewish colony is in course of erection. We want you all----not a soul must be missing ; re-awaken the Tents of Zion, and where there are apparently none seek for the single lover of Zion the place contains, enter into communication with us or with Dr. Hirsch, and some results will be arrived at. Tours of the leaders into the provincial towns are urgently needed ; don't allow the splendid opportunity to pass. It is a day the house of Israel were long waiting for. Tell them in the language it deserves, that Edmund the Rothschild is a chief, an official leader of the National Movement ; joy and gladness will follow the train of this advancement."
We have much more similar material from those years.
I will say this...Until the time that the Messiah comes, the only thing that will bring Love and Peace to this GODLESS earth is Jesus Christ..
Europe has gone secular, embraced Atheism and radical Islam is flourishing...
Iran wants to destroy Israel
The Middle East is erupting into all kinds of Jihads
The Liberals and the Left hate GOD and all religion..
The World is hurting from Animals perishing in the Sky and fish dying in the Oceans to the weather being turned upside down...
However what is not failing is Jesus Christ whose people’s lives are being *Transformed*
The Hopeless in the World are finding HOPE in Jesus Christ and that is all over the Internet...
Those 13 are excellent points..
However I would like to ask you this..
I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him
So why did G-d Punish JOB?
“Evidence? There is no evidence for the word Karath being used for exile”
Sure there is.”cut off 3772”
And the uncircumcised 6189 man child 2145 whose 834 flesh 1320 of his foreskin 6190 is not circumcised 4135 , that soul 5315 shall be cut off3772 from his people 5971; he hath broken 6565 my covenant 1285.
That is physically removed from the people and spiritually removed from G-d. Exiled.
Whosoever 834 376 compoundeth 7543 [any] like it, or whosoever putteth 5414 [any] of it upon a stranger 2114 , shall even be cut3772 off from his people 5971.
This can be a spiritual, physical exile depending on the sin, can be destruction of the body straight away or early death. It can be the removal (excising of a person) from within “am Israel”
So, getting back to Isaiah,....Ezekiel speaks of Israel as “The land of the living” 26:20
So, Isaiah who like Ezekiel, is writing from Exile. Being cut-off from the land of the living, is being excised or removed from, the land of the living, would be front and center in his mind. Notice he doesnt say cut-off from the living. But LAND of the living. Rashi the Jewish sage said:...”he was cut off and exiled from the land of the living that is the land of Israel”...
“I think you should read the the scripture says, and not what you want it to say. Its also interesting that you have not addressed this part of Daniels prophecy:”
What are you talking about? I just showed you definitively that being cut-off is a bad thing...Something that would NEVER be attributable to Jsus if he were messiah ben David. Messiah ben David is NEVER prophecised to be cut-off. And you are wrong. ONLY bad people are cut-off. Period. A prophet who is killed has NOT been cut-off they have been MURDERED...see the difference?
I will respond to the rest of Daniel for you or anything else. I avoid nothing...other than my job at the moment....
I will share this statement:
I for one respect the faith of Judaism and Torah very much.
My prayers for Israel and the Jewish People is that they will remain safe under G-d’s Divine Protection from those who wish her harm...
However I see the Miracle of Jesus Christ daily in the world.
I see the GOOD and the Healing it brings...
I see the Calm that Christ brings in the Storm....
This Video is so moving and telling of what FAITH can do in the EYE of the STORM or in this case a Joplin Tornado.
*SHOCKING*Joplin Tornado: Woman Calls “Jesus” Saved From Death...
Jesus Calms the Storm
35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, Let us go over to the other side. 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, Teacher, dont you care if we drown?
39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, Quiet! Be still! Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
40 He said to his disciples, Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?
41 They were terrified and asked each other, Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!
“otherwise the Angels would be greater than G-d if they could do something G-d cannot do..”
Oh...gotcha..G-d can do anything except break His own Torah (Thus making himself to a liar (G-d forbid)). G-d is who gave the angels this ability, so, G-d is greater. G-d spoke the univrse into existance, thus nothing is greater. so on and so on. Since G-d told us in 4:15 NO FORM...No Form it is! So even G-d can not go back on that and put Himself in a form, lest His word be unreliable and Him a liar (G-d forbid)
Hey, I went to a Catholic school. I have no issues with Catholics.
Same guilt, different flavor.
(humor break was necessary)
But in all seriousness, I am Jewish. I love the spirituality I get from performing Mitzvot and my relationship with G-d.
His mother was supposed to name him “Immanuel”...the Angel in the NT didnt get the message apparently.
The mythical Council of Jamnia was a kneejerk response to the upstart new Christians.
Ok..I see what you are saying....
Yes G-d would never lie, but his power is he can do anything.
So I think we can both agree that G-d can somehow transition a Angelic Entity into a Physical one...
I am not sure if anyone can say how that can be accomplished
so in the case of Jesus Christ, his body was never produced
and since I follow the Shroud of Turin, science has discovered that the the Big Bang that brought the Universe in exsistence is now being considered when examining the Shroud.
So Either it was created as a forgery by medieval sources or the image present on it was imprinted from a burst of light that miraculously occurred during Jesus Christs resurrection.
I think G-d has allowed in his time which is our time to discover some miraculous divine events that the Ancient World could never understand, will that validate for the whole world what happened to Jesus Christ after he was in the tomb? time will tell....
That’s an interesting question. Myself, I must admit I never thought God was punishing Job, but teaching him a lesson.
“if God’s Plan provides a Perfect Sacrifice for all human sin”
That is exactly the problem...not one verse in all of Tanakh(OT) says that there will be a perfect human sacrifice for all human sin...it doesnt exist.
Certainly a lot of perversions in there...yes!
However, Christians did much good during those times. Poland was renowned for her tolerance for centuries which is where 80% of Jews lived for a time. All Christians were not involved in the activities you cite.
right through the Nazis
Actually, even after. Many people who profess to be christians today do heinous things...we can see this with current events...abortion, enslavement under socialism, broken families, not allowing the hard-working to prosper...many people in charge of these programs DO "profess" christianity! But they are a perversion of the religion.
However, there are true christians today and always who have done tremendous good. One example, of course, being the US of A which is still the leader in safeguarding freedom in the world and was founded on Christianity (not the perversion of it) for that purpose.
I hate to say it, but even in Europe where the Church has been darker of late, it is still the place where people are flocking from other countries because they know they will get more freedom there than in other countries dominated by other religions. Thus, even there Christianity still has a positive heritage in some ways.
The hope going forward is that the true essence of Christianity is still abided by. The essential message as described in the Bible carries hope and change (but not the perverted Obama "hope and change" which is a classic case of the twisting of the Gospel message. Obama's christianity if continued would lead us into dark phases again as before in history).
God does not allow us to suffer because He is being mean to us; He allows us to suffer in order that we might admit our ultimate helplessness in this world, recognize our sins, and turn back to Him in true devotion.
But Job remained adamant in his innocence. And throughout all the suffering heaped upon his head, he did not commit sin.
God said in answer to Jobs demand for an explanation of what was happening to him. God made no attempt to defend Himself.
How do we know for sure whether our suffering is the result of our own sin or if it serves some other unfathomable purpose of God?
To anyone but a Christian, the answer to this question remains a mystery. But every Christian has the answer hanging right before him: the divine Mystery of Christ crucified.
In Christ on the cross, we comprehend perfect obedience to Gods deepest motives. On the cross, even innocent suffering glorifies God, for it leads us to persevere in love despite all the opposition the world can inflict on us.
Those are the 13 principles of faith.
As for Job, the answer is pretty simplistic: G-d is just. It is His world, and he doesn’t have to explain His actions.
“then what sacrifice do you have”
Sacrifices are only required when there is a temple. We have today the same exact means of atonement as Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Esther, Mordecai...Prayer, Repentance, Charity, Fasting...and a few others. When the 3rd temple is built, then sacrifices will resume. It’s just that christians have been taught since birth about the blood sacrifice being the ONLY means of atonement. It’s not. In fact many sacrfices had nothing to do with sin at all.
And even then blood was not required...Lev 5:11...Flour atones. Flour.
That is not what you said:
11. I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.
JOB never committed a sin agaisnt G-d.
So G-d did punish a righteous man...It is pretty easy to follow G-d when your life is going along swimingly...
Not so easy, when you lose everything including all your children like JOB did and who was in intense physical pain from illness....
If our FAITH does not sustain us and help us through the Storms of Life then what good is any religion?
Well, third temple means we CAN, but we’re not supposed to have to do much of the atonement ones at that time.
No, not exactly.
Isaiah said that he would be called “Immanuel,” which means God present with us, and he indeed was and is.
“What are you talking about? I just showed you definitively that being cut-off is a bad thing...”
Great, because your actual argument was that only a “bad Messiah” is cut off, and later that Karath only means cut off in exile. I was never arguing that Karath, whether it is used to reference cutting of branches, cutting of fruit, cutting of foreskin, or cutting off of life is non-destructive, except when the word is used in reference to covenants. It has no exclusive meaning of “bad people are only cut off.”
Except in Daniel 9 and Isaiah 53
“ONLY bad people are cut-off. Period. A prophet who is killed has NOT been cut-off they have been MURDERED...see the difference?”
Except Jeremiah used the same word in reference to what his enemies wanted to do with him. Which, demonstrates quite soundly, that you want the word to mean more than it actually does. If only “bad people” are cut off, he would have used a different word that denotes a wrongful death.
Just FYI, the word used for “cut off” in Isaiah is not Karath, it is another word that is translated the same way. It is Gazar, which is translated cut off, cut, divide, decree, snatch, or to be destroyed in the KJV. Gazar is used with all those meanings in different contexts. It is used, for example, in the cutting down of trees with an axe. This suggests not a peaceful “division,” but a violent one. However, after it is used, the scripture specifically talks of him making his grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death. This is after he is afflicted, marred exceedingly, and makes his soul a “sin offering” using the same word also used when discussing animal sacrifice. These are things which corporate Israel, even if you take the “divide from Israel” nuance, has never fulfilled in its entire history and never will, as the last judgment on Jerusalem was a punishment and not a sacrificial “pure” affliction for the sins of the gentiles. In Ezekiel, and in many places actually, it is also used to literally mean “land of the living” (life) from death. For example, it is used here in specific reference to death, and not to exile, though it could mean that also:
Jer 11:19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.
The temple is where He chooses and today that temple is in the human spirit of every believer.
This isn’t a religious debate. It is a report.
This is why a Gentile is able to have fellowship with God Himself.
“His mother was supposed to name him Immanuel...the Angel in the NT didnt get the message apparently.”
Immanuel means God with Us, or With us is God, and the Lord’s name certainly had the name of God, and He certainly claimed to be God in the flesh quite literally. The Old Testament prophecy that Jesus would in fact be God is fulfilled.
Just because you cannot know why doesn’t mean G-d is not just. He knows everything and is omnipotent.
What good is any religion if we do not recognize this?
“Isaiah specifically teaches that this Redeemer would justify many”
Many..not all and Jsus did NOT have prolonged days...did he. he died young. He did not have children...(hebrew word zerah ONLY means PHYSICAL children not spiritual)...he was not killed with the rich and buried with the wicked....was he...no, Jesus was killed with the wicked and buried in a brand spanking new rich mans tomb.
53 :8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
A plague befell THEM...how can Jesus be a them? Plural...the hebrew word there is L’amo....them. In all other places the KJV correctly translates Lamo as them...except here...that is deceitful.
The dramatic effect is in your mind...Just because you want a dramatic effect doesnt mean it is there. Asham is for LIMITED atonement. Sorry, if that is Jsus, that only covers about 6 intention sins...oops!
An end to sin? Yeah, the church has done a great job of that right? Crusades, Inquisition, Pogroms, Catholics slaughtering Protestants and vis-versa. The world has been a blood bath since the time of Jsus. Jews acts as pagans? In addition to your human sacrifice, you have a monthly meal where you pretend to eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead Jew. You eat pig meat and all sorts of filthy creatures. You believe god got a mortal mans wife pregnant?
And as you did not address...Jsus blood was not sprinkled on the altar, his fat and ofal not burned. If, a Jew would have borrowed a roman cross, took it outside the city and nailed up a....lets say...a sheep. would that have been an acceptable sacrifice? of course not.
Several of the OT prophets stated that God would turn away from Israel, and toward another people, to make Israel Jealous, and that Israel would be TEMPORARILY blinded until his work was done with that other people, and that at the time of fullness of the gentiles, all Israel would be saved.
So, if you truly are Israel, and truly believe in and worship God, you have nothing to worry about - you will be saved.
“”Immanuel means God with Us, or With us is God” Yes and that was Isaiah using prophetic language that was fulfilled in THAT day...not 700 years into the future. The sign was for Ahaz...remember...and G-d WAS certainly with them when the two kings who threatened Israel were killed. Isa 8:10. Take counsel and it will be foiled; speak a word and it will not succeed, for God is with us. See the prophetic connection? It has nothing to do with Jsus.”
Jesus Christ is literally God with us. That is why the sign is that of a virgin (almah, young unmarried maiden) giving birth to Immanuel, el’gibbor (the mighty God), the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, as the scriptures as a whole testify.
>> “Christians are the true sons of Abraham” <<
The Bible says “seed of Abraham.” But so are Jews and the house of Ephraim part of the seed of Abraham.
More importantly, no gentile is part of Israel. Israel is Israel. You don’t have any way of knowing who God has chosen, and who he’ll reject, and it is not yet time for those things to be revealed.
35 Then Jesus declared, I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
“It has no exclusive meaning of bad people are only cut off.
I didnt say that it did...and the word is KARET not Karath.
In reference to whether messiah in Dan 9, since that is what we are discussing, not shrubery. A perfect person (Jsus) would NEVER be considered a cut-off person.
And come on....Jeremiahs ENEMIES wanted to cut-off Jeremiah because they wanted to get rid of him. You have to pay attention to WHO is speaking.”and let us cut him off” And what happened to them? G-d took them out! G-d did not not allow Jeremiah to get murdered...did he.
“Jesus Christ is literally God with us.”
Right. Come on...He didnt know the hour of his return...he prayed to himself in the garden? Talked to himself on the cross? He lied to the high priest about teaching nothing in secret? He was wrong about JTB being Elijah..he called a gentile woman and her people dogs...he falsely prophecised his return before they all died... Twice he dissed his own mortal mother...He said equality with G-d was something that could not be grasped...He cursed a fig tree for no reason when it wasnt even the right season...he took a farmer herd of pigs and killed them without compensation...he didnt even bother to write ONE word of his own...when G-d wrote the ten commandments in STONE? Jsus cant even write?
uhhh yeah...this is NOT G-d with us. A false prophet and another failed messiah.
Oh and I checked again...you did not answer these.
B) Not one verse in all of Tanakh (OT) does it say the Law will end and be replaced by a law of christ
C) Not one verse in all of Tanakh does it say that messiah will fulfill the law on our behalf (thus ending the law)
Care to try again?
Because you cannot *Love* G-d with all your heart soul and mind because he just is...
Shortly after the big release of the HS at pentecost, Paul has to write letters because they ALREADY had begun back sliding and getting into sin. Why? If the HS is indwelling in them?
There also dwells within every man the capacity to sin. The Hebrew Bible gives us the laws to recognize our sins. Free will guarantees that a man will inevitably sin. Is it the constant need to cleanse our sins that keeps alive a vigorous relationship with God? Is this the same as the recurring sacrifices and sin offerings amongst the Jewish faithful? What would be the need for constant repetition if the sacrifices actually achieve forgiveness? I am not trying to be confrontational, just trying to understand.
Very true. Touche...
“I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him”
Why did my 9 year old son get Type 1 diabetes? He was innocent. Why do infants get brain cancer? Why was my daughter born with deformed feet? Why were so many lost in the Holocaust? Why do babies starve in Africa?
Why do bad things happen to good people?
I call it G-d’s Will. Everything happens for a reason, even if we don’t understand it.
It’s nothing more than superstition to think that if you live a perfectly good life, bad things will never happen to you.
EVERYONE dies. The most pious, perfect person will die. It’s called ‘life’.
I think that G-d does *generally* reward good behavior with good outcomes. If you manage your money well, you’ll have no debt and be able to more easily handle the storms. You’ll appear ‘blessed’.
In a way, you are.
And if you’re a criminal, you’ll eventually be led to ruin.
But there are no promises.
BTW, this wrong-thinking led me to a serious crisis of faith when my son received his diagnosis. I couldn’t see where he, my husband or I did anything to deserve this hell. I read Job a hundred times, looking for comfort.
Finally, I found peace in prayer. G-d wasn’t punishing anyone. He had a reason and I just couldn’t understand it. My son’s illness was G-d’s Will. G-d’s Will can never be wrong or evil - only good.
Thus, my son’s disease must be good. (In some way.)
There is a passage in the New testament when Jesus said
*It is Finished*
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
The end of SIN through the sacrafice....Isn’t the point that the Levitical Priests never sit down because sin is never abolished?
The constant repetition of the daily and annual sacrifices proved that the Levitical sacrifices could not satisfy the righteousness of God or wouldn’t it be complete at some point?
I agree with you, and I hope your SON will be blessed and healed with the Grace Mercy and healing hands of our Creator..
I see it this way:
Your Parents discipline you for dis-obedience and you can understand that because you understand that your parents love you, and that is why your punished..
Say you do everything perfectly and your parents beat you to a pulp are you going to understand that?
G-d does not promise our life is going to be a walk in the park, bad things will happen, what he does promise is to never leave you alone in the storm... and that is *Faith* without it, no one can understand G-d they will feel like he has beaten them down for no reason.
REPOSTING SO THIS IS MORE LEGIBLE IN TWO DIFFERENT POSTS:
Not everyone is a Christian. Though I’m glad you’ve accepted the fact that He is “baring” their sins.
“and Jsus did NOT have prolonged days...did he. he died young.”
He rose again on the third day, ascended to the right hand of the Father, till all enemies are made His footstool, just as promised.
Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
“He did not have children...(hebrew word zerah ONLY means PHYSICAL children not spiritual)..”
Here is an example where the word zerah is used in the sense of raising up “seed” for someone other than yourself:
Gen 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
Zerah is also used when talking about “the seed of evildoers” or the “seed of” such and such. So the meaning, by use, refers also to the nature of people and not just to physical descendants of someone.
The Bible also says that many nations would be joined to Him, and not just the Jews.
Zec 2:10-11 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. (11) And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
“The dramatic effect is in your mind...Just because you want a dramatic effect doesnt mean it is there. Asham is for LIMITED atonement. Sorry, if that is Jsus, that only covers about 6 intention sins...oops!”
Every sacrifice in the old testament is a “limited atonement,” insomuch that they must be performed over and over again. Nevertheless, the word is used in animal sacrifices for transgressions, and the context makes it clear it is no small matter in Isaiah 53.
Just so you know, before about 1050 the ancient Jewish commentators generally applied Isaiah 53 to the Messiah.
“An end to sin? Yeah, the church has done a great job of that right? “
In the sense that my sins are forgiven perpetually and forever, they are not remembered any more, and I have a new nature that is permanently saved, I find the scripture fits. In the Jewish case though, there is no explanation for those scriptures. They pass over it, or they distort it, but they cannot answer them, since the 70 weeks of Daniel have long come and gone.
“And as you did not address...Jsus blood was not sprinkled on the altar, his fat and ofal not burned. If, a Jew would have borrowed a roman cross, took it outside the city and nailed up a....lets say...a sheep. would that have been an acceptable sacrifice? of course not.”
If it was acceptable to God, it certainly was good enough. Isaiah 53 does not say that the servant is strapped to an altar and sacrificed “asham” which is the same word used for sacrificing animals for atonement. It says he was taken from judgment, delivered from prison to death. Nevertheless, He Himself makes His soul an offering for sin.
“And come on....Jeremiahs ENEMIES wanted to cut-off Jeremiah because they wanted to get rid of him. You have to pay attention to WHO is speaking.and let us cut him off And what happened to them? G-d took them out! G-d did not not allow Jeremiah to get murdered...did he.”
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Jeremiah was himself speaking, and talking about what they wanted to do to him. It is illogical to think that if the word implied inherent evil in the person being cut off, that he would use it on himself even when describing what others wanted to do with him. You also have not answered any of my other objections. The word has no such meaning as you continue to assert over and over again.
“As to why Jews today reject Jesus as Messiah, I think it is partly due to the anti-Jewish persecution perpetrated on the Jews by so-called Christian leaders and governments throughout the past 1500 years. I think there is also this cultural/family/historical Jewish foundational rejection of Christianity that makes it very difficult for Jews to accept Jesus as Messiah - this would, in their minds, deny their heritage and people.”
Hi. Nope. Listen to the class or read a summary: Any would-be prophet or miracle worker (even one who rises from the dead...and by the way, all non-Jews, note well-— ALMOST ALL of the rabbis of the Mishnaic and Talmudic era (1st-7th centuries) could raise the dead-— (see Talmud tractate Avodah Zara, an excerpt: A secret cave led from the palace of Antoninus to the house of Rabbi Yehudah. Daily Antoninus would visit Rabbi Yehudah and study Torah with him, but he wanted this to be secret. He would bring two servants with him, killing one at the entrance to the house of Rabbi Yehudah, and another on return. Antoninus told Rabbi Yehudah that nobody should be present at their meeting, but one day Rabbi Chanina bar Chama was there.
Antoninus was upset, but Rabbi Yehudah told Antoninus, It is not a man, but an angel. To verify this, Antoninus told Rabbi Chanina, “Go and wake my servant, sleeping at the door.” Rabbi Chanina found the servant dead. Not wanting to either come back with the bad news, or to flee, Rabbi Chanina revived the servant. Antoninus said, I know that the least among you can resurrect the dead, but please next time nobody should be with you.
.... Jews don’t care about miracles if the performer of the miracles purports to change the Torah. We are so stubborn now and they were stubborn then when the “least amoung us could resurrect the dead...”
I will tell you this, Christianity is ‘easier’ than the (heavy yoke of the laws of) Judaism (/sarc) so sure, with centuries of exile and horrific persecution one can win a few converts.
Jews ask nothing of non-Jews but to obey the 7 laws that G-d obliges them to follow. You don’t know (most Jews don’t) that in our code of Jewish law it’s an OBLIGATION to promote these laws (http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/Universal-Morality.htm) when one’s life wouldn’t be rubbed out by a Cossack by doing so.
The Jewish version of Hell isn’t fire and brimstone, that is actually lifted from Kabbalistic sources of Jewish ‘purgatory.’ The real Hell is knowing that one had the chance to connect with one’s Creator and failed to do so. There is nothing better than objective commandments. We love it. (we have 613 of them, positive and negative, and their offshoots. You have 7...)
Sorry I chose your post to free-style a little bit. I’ve been popping in and out all day and still see only one response from someone who listened to the class.
Furthermore, lest anyone would think otherwise, Jews don’t hate non-Jews, G-d forbid. We are all created by G-d in his image. And to challenge yourselves with more mistranslations, go read what it means to be (as Ezekiel reports) “...This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. ...” What the heck is the appearance of a likeness of glory? It means nothing in English! And how do you have a form or figure of the formless/figureless G-d? And how do Jews accept this prophecy but not a man-god?! Because we do. You have to learn all our sources and traditions before bringing any other proof. And if you have a few thousand/million converts from the faith... see my point above. It’s hard to be a Jew.
Final point of the rant. “It’s hard to be a Jew” was the mantra of new immigrants to their assimilating children. These children said, “If it’s hard...then I’ll do something easier!” The Chassidic outlook on Judaism, and indeed, every Jew’s outlook, is that it’s GREAT to be a Jew. We don’t only call ourselves chosen...we call ourselves the only son born to parents in their old age. So when our Father in Heaven gives us a Torah and commandments to follow, we love them. In fact, if He says, “dig me a hole then refill it” we dance for joy at having been commanded by our Father and King.
Seriously, I should set up a separate rant. Whoever posted about “Jewish worship through academics” or something like that...would you read my rant-blog if I set it up? ;)
“I am not trying to be confrontational, just trying to understand.”
Awesome..nice change of pace...
You are right...withing each of us in Jewish teaching is the yetzer hara and the yetzer tov. Yetzer hara means , loosely, evil inclination. So, conversely we have a inclination to good, the “tov”. So, the basics of it all would be something like this.
We are constantly “at war” so to speak with our evil inclination...when we serve G-d, through acts of kindness, mercy and so on, we are putting down the yetzer hara and that brings us close to G-d. Not out of burden do we do these commandments, but out of love for G-d. When we sin, we fall but we get back up, repent, turn away from the sin and keep trying. It is a process. My model is King David, read Psalm 119...176 verses...the longest in the bible, the topic? His love of the law. This is how David maintained a relationship with G-d. As, I mentioned earlier...
18. For You do not wish a sacrifice, or I should give it; You do not desire a burnt offering.
19. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; O God, You will not despise a broken and crushed heart.
Notice one thing...in all of the Tanakh (OT) there is not a single case...not one...where David...or Joe..or anyone is shown sinning and then taking an animal off to the temple for a sacrifice. Isnt that odd? If sacrifice is SO central to a relationship with G-d?
But what do we see CONSTANTLY requested of us by G-d? Do and obey...rend your hearts...not your garments...or this.
6. With what shall I come before the Lord, bow before the Most High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves?
7. Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8. He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk discreetly with your God.
So, in other words, do the commandments out of love. And when you do, you will care for your fellow man, love your neighbor as yourself (That is OT!), care for the widow and orphan, treat each other with justice.
The constant need for sacrifices were because the the temple was Holy. And there was a need to keep it that way. That is why nearly all sacrifices were for UNintentional sin...not intentional. Keep in mind G-ds presence was there, so we had to be very careful. And there were sacrifices that didnt have anything to do with sin. This was also a source of food for the poor and the people in general. There was a certain BBQ aspect to some of it. The food did not go to waste.
Also, there are deeper levels of spirituality when you do have to take an animal, it is not easy to do. Animals were costly and if you were attached to them...very difficult.
So, to sum up. G-d gives us means of atonement with and without a temple. Having a temple means greater levels of observance. But we primarily have a relationship with G-d by doing what he asks out of love and when we blow it...we pray..repent..give to charity...fast..and keep moving ahead. The more yetzer tov a person can manage, the more the yetzer hara is minimized and the deeper the relationship with G-d. And there are lots of biblical verses to back all this up also!