Skip to comments.Why Did the Jews Reject Christianity?
Posted on 08/12/2012 9:20:00 PM PDT by Phinneous
A Jewish class on why Jews do not accept Christianity. I post for Jews to self-educate and for Christians to understand the Jewish point of view--not that it matters (that they do.)
“Every sacrifice in the old testament is a limited atonement, insomuch that they must be performed over and over again.”
Exactly...so show me ONE verse in Tanakh that changes that to a “one size fits all forever” sacrifice. Not there..is it.
” Just so you know, before about 1050 the ancient Jewish commentators generally applied Isaiah 53 to the Messiah”
Heard it all before...not true. Not even close.
“does not say that the servant is strapped to an altar and sacrificed “
Exactly....then he obviously isnt “the slain lamb that takes away the sin of the world” then is he. And Isaiah NEVER uses the word messiah either...does he. Just an oversight?
Here is the correct view of Dan 9
Thank you. I will continue reading. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.
“Exactly...so show me ONE verse in Tanakh that changes that to a one size fits all forever sacrifice. Not there..is it.”
Almost the entire chapter 9 of Daniel, which states that at the end of the 70 weeks “reconciliation” would be made, an end to sin, a sealing (fulfilling) of prophecy, etc etc would be done. And it ends with the destruction of the Jewish temple. That can only mean the Temple standing wouldn’t be necessary for the reconciliation.
Sure thing..no problem!
The existence of spiritual life in any one believer disproves your point.
“Almost the entire chapter 9 of Daniel,”
You’re kidding right? No where does it say that messiah will kill himself to put an end to sin. This is the hight of circular reasoning and eisegesis.
If your eisegesis were true...Christians would not sin...well we know that isnt true. For most of the last 2000 years, a rather bloody bunch. And again, your counting of the 70 weeks is wayyyy off. It is bad math. Look, Daniel was a Jew, I would advise listening to the Jewish Rabbi’s exposit this Jewish text and not attempt to shoe-horn the man from Nazareth into Daniel. It doesnt work. He doesnt fit.
“The existence of spiritual life in any one believer disproves your point.”
What about spiritual Mormons? Buddists? Muslims? Acting spiritually, while better than not, obviously, is no indicator of truth.
Proper view of Isaiah 53.
Just remember that this is (at least unofficially) a Christian site where Judaism is only tolerated because of political concerns. Assume the moderators share the same distaste for Jews and Judaism as the typical poster.
Sometimes it is more thought-provoking just to explain Hebrew words or usage, or just to correct facts or mistaken views about what Jews believe.
Non-Jews do need to hear the Sheva Mitzvot B’nei Noach from Jews, and do need to know that “the righteous of all the nations have a share in the world to come.”
The Jewish Home? You’ve sat in with Rabbi Elirok?
“You don’t see...?” Nope. How could I explain to you that Judaism now is exactly as it should be (without a temple mind you?) Judaism exists to bring G-d “down” to earth. A Jew’s commandment, like the twice-daily required recitation of the “Hear Israel, the L-rd is our G-d, the L-rd is one” prayer you reference, is a commandment given to Jews by G-d and it’s purpose is to infuse holiness into the world. If G-d removes our temple (and by the way will rebuild it Himself...no demolition required in case anyone has funny ideas) then the way we go about our mission is modified and we carry on with our sad echo of pre-1st century ways. I could calmly scream from the rooftops that Judaism and its monotheism is so different than other religions, our philosophy is so all-encompassing (there is no other way to explain 2,000,000 people being given a Torah and a mission) and that our faith is not even like yours...we don’t technically speaking, believe in these things, we KNOW them precisely because of an un-broken tradition from Sinai.
Part of the class, and the thing to which Christians and Moslems (and Mormons for that matter) must answer to—listen to the class I posted— is that ONE MAN made claims that sparked a following. Do you believe him? Well, sure, he did a miracle! But the Torah warns about it 1300 years before that we should only believe a potential prophet who doesn’t change Torah.... so no dude, every Jew in this thread has been saying-— no JC for Jews.
BUT, and let’s stir the pot for the evangelicals.... as long as Mitt follows the seven laws: http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/Universal-Morality.htm, then he’s every bit the “ritgheous gentile” that any stock Christian could be. (if only, and here is the real spoiler, if only the first of those seven laws didn’t negate a trinity completely.)
Non-Jews have to prove (to themselves, not to Jews) that one “prophet” was god/special/a leader, or that one arab came out of a cave and had a revelation for a new religion, Allah, etc, and still, if they truly studies (go find an Orthodox Jew...he won’t bite) the basis of their religions, the Torah, they would realize they are obligated by seven commandments from G-d, and to go master that before any NT or Koran.
In the Hebrew, is says AND she (his mother) WILL CALL HIS NAME (Shemo) Immanuel.
See it clearly says, that is what his name (shemo שְׁמֹו) will be...not that people will call him that.
re: “Hi. Nope. Listen to the class or read a summary: Any would-be prophet or miracle worker (even one who rises from the dead...and by the way, all non-Jews, note well- ALMOST ALL of the rabbis of the Mishnaic and Talmudic era (1st-7th centuries) could raise the dead”
Ok, so if Jesus’s miracles and raising the dead, and, that he himself being raised from the dead is no big deal - even in the first century because every rabbi worth his salt could do so, then why crucify him? Why all the hoopla against him by the Sanhedrin then? Why were so many following him among the populace if what Jesus did was no big deal and an everyday occurance among all the rabbis of that time?
He claimed to be Messiah and equal with God - wasn’t it for blasphemy that the Sanhedrin convicted him to death? It would be blasphemy if Jesus was a fraud, but, if Jesus was who he claimed to be. . .?
Just to also be clear, I have no animosity either toward the Jewish people. I am appalled and heart-broken at the atrocities done in Jesus’s name against the Jewish people over the centuries. I totally support Israel’s right to exist and to defend themselves with whatever means they feel necessary.
As to the Law and the writings of the Prophets, I have the utmost respect and believe, as a Christian, that all of G-d’s Word is still in effect. I do not believe that it is possible to attain righteousness toward salvation (remove the guilt of our sin) by following the Law, because we all sin, we all fall at some point to measure up to G-d’s completely holy and righteous standard.
As to your disagreement with me as to why the Jewish people as whole reject Christianity, I must respond back that my remarks came from Jewish people (my wife’s father was Jewish and many of her relatives are, of course, Jewish) I have spoken with in the past.
I’ve never heard any of them say that their problem with Jesus as Messiah was because he was just “no big deal” in regard to the miracles. Usually they just denied that the New Testament had any historical validity and that whatever it said about Jesus doing miracles was just made-up. Then, in addition to that came the persecutions from “Christians”. That was why I said what I said.
The problem is you don’t know who the righteous of all the nations are..
have a share in the world to come.
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
Psalm 14:1 For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
Psalm 53:1 For the director of music. According to mahalath. A maskil of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.
Psalm 143:2 Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.
“Proper view of Isaiah 53.
From the Chaldee paraphrase of the Bible by Jonathan Ben Uziel, lived 30 years before the time of Christ. He identifies the servant as the Messiah. “Behold, my servant the Messiah shall prosper.” You can find this in his commentary on Isaiah 52 (just tpe LII) and you can read LIII as well for Isaiah 53.
Here from the Babylonian Talmud, applying Isaiah 53 to the Messiah:
“Rab said: The world was created only on David’s account .24 Samuel said: On Moses account;25 R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah’s] name? The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come.26 The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever:27 e’er the sun was, his name is Yinnon.28 The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give you Haninah.29 Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem [’the comforter’], that would relieve my soul. The Rabbis said: His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.31”
There is more, if you want them.
“Just remember that this is (at least unofficially) a Christian site where Judaism is only tolerated because of political concerns. Assume the moderators share the same distaste for Jews and Judaism as the typical poster.”
Filthy lies. You will not find more devoted defenders of Israel than the people on this website. You are merely indulging in victimhood in order to justify your lack of belief and your vanity. And yet, it was a Jewish poster who setup this thread. You’re as bad as the liberals who cry racism.
You are so right...The defenders of Israel are on this site...I have not been here that much over the last year, and I cannot tell you on other sites how many people Hate Israel, the Jews and could care less what happens to them..
I post on those sites to people that need to hear the Gospel and the rabid posters on those sites usually are from Europe who have embraced secularism and liberalism.
jjotto that was pretty shameful of you....
Not very righteous my friend....
Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deuteronomy 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose.
9 And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment.
10 And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee.
11 According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that doeth presumptuously, in not hearkening unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die; and thou shalt exterminate the evil from Israel.
Rusty, “L’chaim” (take a drink! thanks for the support)
You have a lot of “Why’s.” In response to yours or another post I lay the challenge to study the basis of Judaism before inferring what Jews should do/believe. (Another link: http://www.noahide.org/)
The stories about JC’s persecution from the sanhedrin, etc are in your books, not Jews’, so I can’t help you.
There is a lot of misinformed information from modern Jews, a lot of it emotionally vice factually-based. (your father in law’s inputs)
“Ive never heard any of them say that their problem with Jesus as Messiah was because he was just no big deal in regard to the miracles. Usually they just denied that the New Testament had any historical validity and that whatever it said about Jesus doing miracles was just made-up. Then, in addition to that came the persecutions from Christians. “
Cool what we learn on these forums, ey? Yup, we reject for altogether different and fascinating reasons :) But not just “no big deal” rather (listen to the class I posted) a big deal that was foretold and rejected entirely 1300 years before he came along.
“Youre kidding right? No where does it say that messiah will kill himself to put an end to sin. This is the hight of circular reasoning and eisegesis.”
I like how you have not apologized for the line after line of correction I’ve had to give you throughout this thread. You just move on to something else each time. But to answer you, the scripture does not say he will “kill himself.” It says he will be “cut off.” This suggests through violent means. And after that destruction falls on Israel. Isaiah repeats the same thing. It is God who strickens Him, it is God who punishes Him, though He is utterly innocent.
“f your eisegesis were true...Christians would not sin...well we know that isnt true. For most of the last 2000 years, a rather bloody bunch.”
I guess I can say the same of the non-Christian Jews. A rather unfaithful bunch for over 2,000 years. Nevertheless, a Christian is born again and has a new nature. We no longer live, but Christ lives in us. We take on the righteousness of Christ and not our own. Sure, we are individually flawed, but in the sight of God “it is finished.”
You still haven’t explained the meaning of Daniel 9, but have only ridiculed anything that supports the plain meaning of the text.
They are living a soulish life, attempting to counterfeit the spiritual life. The closest they come is by encountering spirits by witchcraft and demonic influence, but not through faith in what God provides.
The Christian life is not merely some comparative religious construct. It is a very real life discernible from physical and soulish living. It doesn’t come by anybody changing their mind or perspective, but only comes from the creation of the human spirit in the believer by only God Himself.
I appreciate what you are saying and I think I was coming to that understanding with this thread. I’ve been on FR for 8 years and I’ve had plenty of these types of discussions. In most cases, I had the sense that people were just making sincere exploration to understand each other better. Sure, there have been the die-hard evangelists and a few fire-breathers. I just never knew it was the website policy to allow the aggressive proselytizing and condemnation of Judaism that I’ve seen on this thread.
I sort of came here because in many ways its a great website for conservatives and also, to let the conservative world know there are Jews out here who aren’t knee jerk liberals, who, like me despise liberalism. I hope to be able to keep doing that. But I’m going to answer people point blank. If they want to tell me that I’m following the wrong religion, or my understanding of the Torah is misguided or insist that I accept their views on the Messiah, I’m going to tell them the truth. Let the chips fall where they may.
“From the Chaldee paraphrase of the Bible by Jonathan Ben Uziel,”
Hahahaha...oh I always love it when Christians run to the Targums or Talmud for support. You have no idea what you are even quoting do you...
This is Midrash...which has NOTHING to do with the P’shat or the literal meaning of the text. Christians always blunder into this mistake. A) They have no idea what the difference between Midrash and Peshat is, and B) They make the two equivalent. Well, here is the deal. Peshat is Primary...Midrash (commentary or homiletics) NEVER overturn Peshat or the plain meaning of the text.
Again, I have seen it all before...no need to post more Christian cherry picked out of context midrashim that you have no idea what it means anyway.
The Jewish Home? Youve sat in with Rabbi Elirok?
No, Uri Yosef is a friend of mine though.
“I like how you have not apologized for the line after line of correction Ive had to give you throughout this thread”
Again, you are kidding right? You have corrected nothing. Nice try...lol
I’m exploring my die-hard-evangelist of Sheva Mitzvos B’nei Noach. I’ve posted some shiurim but decided to stir the pot with this one. Ostensibly to draw out Jews into discussion, but wink-wink, I knew it would be a barn-buster.
What better place to tell non-Jews about G-d’s demands of them than a place for thoughtful Christians?
However I haven’t seen too much “condemnation of Judaism.” It could be inferred if a Jew were uncomfortable with his own knowledge of Judaism—but in general, non-Jews ignore what the Torah says, to wit: the class I posted.
That’s what happens when leaders and others are too much into the written word and not the spirit. T Hey miss the very thing that they think they are longing for! Actually many of the Jews of that day did indeed accept Jesus. All of the original disciples were Jews! It was only most of the leadership that rejected him.
By the way, in Jewish belief, there are perfectly righteous in every generation (tzadikim.) They do not sin in though, speech, or action. Their every waking (and even sleeping by tradition) moment is deeply attached to G-d and what He wants them to do in His world (Torah study and performance of mitzvos.) These men and women are not mythical—they are not super-human. They are godly (not G-d) humans. And our charge as Jews is to try to think, speak, and act like them.
We fail a lot but, G-d likes a struggle.
But righteous do exist. (in opposition to your quote from Romans)
Re “world to come,” those non-Jews who keep the seven commandments have a portion in the world to come. Take a look at the information and take a look at a perfectly righteous man (lower right of the page.) It’s good just to see the face of one to make it a tangible experience.
“You still havent explained the meaning of Daniel 9, but have only ridiculed anything that supports the plain meaning of the text.”
Yes, I did....reposting for you...Daniel 9 just doesnt make your case like you think.
And here is more:
“Hahahaha...oh I always love it when Christians run to the Targums or Talmud for support. You have no idea what you are even quoting do you...”
I specifically called it a paraphrase, so I’m not sure what it is you are hallucinating about. You directed me to the “true understanding of Isaiah 53” from Jewish sources, presumably because you cannot explain them yourself. So I showed you previous Jewish understanding of Isaiah 53 and the servant. I even gave you links so you could look at the full context and the source. And I can produce more.
You still haven’t addressed much of anything I’ve said, except for going on wild goose chases of random things here or there.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
“Yes, I did....reposting for you...Daniel 9 just doesnt make your case like you think.”
Would you be so kind as to excerpt the relevant section that explains Daniel 9:24, or can you summarize it at least? I’d much rather deal with you or with what you think is important than to dig through and take the time to answer random links step by step by step.
If I did that, I definitely didn’t mean to. I’ll watch it.
The problem is no one keeps those 7 Commandments not a one....
How can you be righteous and have no *Faith*??
He must be a spotless victim, without sin, to do this, as it is written, “For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21).
Even Atheists do good deeds....
What good is your good deeds to G-d if you have no faith?
And the first answer is going to be, “why is the Name written just like that? If it were the Name, it would appear like yud-yud or something”. The second would be “aleph-lamed translates to a dozen things, including a half dozen prepositions. Did you just buy your first milon, boy?”. Another person would say, “One way to refer to G-d is to call him Almighty (and we call people that very rarely, if at all), but of course you know that”. Then it would turn into a tea and pancakes session. Half an hour later it would go back into topic, but only to discuss the count and position of every aleph-lamed relative to appearances of aleph-something-lamed. At least that’s usually how it goes.
“The Jewish authorities ought to learn Hebrew.”
Given that all of them learn hebrew since, like, five years old or something, I have doubts about that going to be a convincing argument.
“Given that all of them learn hebrew since, like, five years old or something, I have doubts about that going to be a convincing argument.”
Seems they forget it often when the topic comes to anything mildly connected to Jesus Christ.
Still, probably nobody (and specially not Jews, let alone Israeli Jews that speak it since ever) is going to believe *your* hebrew is better than the Torah scholars’. Unless you’re kind of like a prodigy language whiz, and even then just maybe.
The question is “Why Did the Jews Reject Christianity?”, after all. That’s just not an argument Jews will take.
Let them make a decision based on the evidence and not on the strength of unexamined authority. And it was a Jewish poster who made the thread.
“Let them make a decision...”
Now that you mention that, they do. The decision is to reject Christianity. And that’s why we’re having this thread right now. The thing to explore is the “Why?”.
Marie, my heart goes out to you for all you went through (and continue to go through).
In tough times, I have a tendency to gravitate to writings of faith in the vein of this free one: http://www.torah.org/features/spirfocus/suffering.html
Of course, tons of prayer, family & friends, ratcheting up mitzvot, rabbi, trying to eat well and exercise... everything that emotionally drains, stuff my self up with other mind and body things.
And only G-d knows why these things happen to good people.
The prophecy said she will call His name Immanuel, not name Him Immanuel.
BUT, and lets stir the pot for the evangelicals.... as long as Mitt follows the seven laws: http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62221/jewish/Universal-Morality.htm, then hes every bit the ritgheous gentile that any stock Christian could be. (if only, and here is the real spoiler, if only the first of those seven laws didnt negate a trinity completely.)
Non-Jews have to prove (to themselves, not to Jews) that one prophet was god/special/a leader, or that one arab came out of a cave and had a revelation for a new religion, Allah, etc, and still, if they truly studies (go find an Orthodox Jew...he wont bite) the basis of their religions, the Torah, they would realize they are obligated by seven commandments from G-d, and to go master that before any NT or Koran.
Whoever thought that up at Chabad is a genius!
I learned more from you on how to refute these false Messiah claims in the past two days that totally puts my previous stock answers to absolute shame.
Thank you for this mitzvah.
Meant the marketing campaign for the Noahide commandments, not the commandments themselves... oy vey, need to ease up on the post button when it is late at nigh!
re: “Rusty, Lchaim (take a drink! thanks for the support)”
Thank you and I say, “L’chaim” to you as well, Phinneous.