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What Are Angels
Chabad.org ^ | 6/24/08 | Baruch Davidson

Posted on 08/14/2012 7:14:46 PM PDT by Phinneous

The Jewish belief in angels goes as far back as the Book of Genesis, where we read about angels calling out to Abraham at the binding of Isaac, angels appearing in Jacob's dream, Jacob fighting with an angel, and many more accounts of angelic activity.

(Excerpt) Read more at chabad.org ...


TOPICS: Judaism; Religion & Culture; Religion & Science; Theology
KEYWORDS: angel; rambam; torah
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To: Joe 6-pack

Ah, my goodness. I didn’t know I’d be seeing this sweet ol’ angel on my break. Always loving, ever watchful...


51 posted on 08/15/2012 2:17:52 PM PDT by floralamiss
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To: boatbums

Great question. It’s a lot different than in Christianity.
I can look up if there is a connection between the two (Lucifer/Satan) but Satan is a nominal from the Hebrew verb meaning “to turn away [from a path]” So in Judaism “the Satan” is an influence to turn away from what G-d wants us to do (ask your local Orthodox rabbi what you should “do” if you’re Jewish, or, see my previous posts on noahide.org)

Here is an analogy, I believe from the Zohar (one of the Kabbalistic or “mystical” books of Judaism) about the Satan. First we understand the Satan to be a creation of G-d’s, like everything in existence. So there is no grand adversarial conflict...G-d wins. But the Satan, being of G-d, has to be explained somehow—how can there be an evil influence in the world if the influencer comes from G-d? So he is likened to a prostitute that a king commissions to “tempt my son to stray.” (in order to test the prince) She knows the king, knows the prince—doesn’t want him to stray, but has to accept her mission. But she can’t go through with it so she sub-contracts to a friend of hers who knows of the king and vaguely that he has a son, etc...and the last (the 4th—since there are four ‘worlds’ in the created state—go ask your local Orthodox kabbalist) in this sub-contracting daisy chain never heard of the king or his son—she just takes the job and intends to do it.

If your eyes haven’t glazed over, I will say that Jews believe we have an animalistic ‘soul’ (really an enlivening force—like the energy between a living being and that which is missing in a corpse with all of its faculties) and there is a G-dly soul, a part of G-d within each person. The Satan usually tries to appeal to our base, animalistic desires (worse than an animal, who eats or ruts until it needs to no more-—we have a tendancy to overdo it just for the sake of pleasure) and even worse—can appeal to our intellectual faculties, telling us how great we are, how holy, how much more refined than so-and-so... the Satan is called the wise and foolish king... he knows exactly how to temp someone. So there are philosophies in Judaism of denying one’s self pleasure (or more than is needed for consumption/procreation, etc.

Anyway....I hope that was mildly interesting...even if (ahem) the thread has strayed from the Jewish conceptualization of angels. C’mon you hard-core evangelicals!!! I’ll have to keep posting stuff...

Phinneous


52 posted on 08/15/2012 6:40:43 PM PDT by Phinneous
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To: NCLaw441
God knows all that CAN be known. He does not know that which cannot be known. He is omniscient.

I stopped struggling with the concept of God's omniscience when I realized that understanding such a concept was impossible for finite beings to understand. I heard a phrase that stuck with me and may help. It's:

    Time is an island in the sea of God's eternity.

An eternal "being" would not be bound by time because He is outside of time and, in fact, God created time in the first place. So, though God already knows the end from the beginning - He "sees" all time simultaneously - He does not move everyone around like marionettes on a playhouse stage. Somehow - and this is the part that I don't think we can "get" - He knew everything before there was even anything. People ask all the time, if God knew how it all would turn out, why did he STILL go through with it? And the answer is partly found in Ephesians 2:7, "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." It pleased God to STILL go through with it and ALL things work to HIS glory.

As to God only knowing what "can" be known, I disagree, I think His omniscience even goes as far as also knowing all the "what ifs" and I think when we face Christ at the judgment seat, we will also be shown those "what ifs". In spite of our free will choices, God's will WILL still be done on earth as it is in heaven. That part is the mystery that, among other things, we can only accept by faith. One day, however, it will make sense - when we have the mind of Christ - and we will "know even as we are known".

53 posted on 08/15/2012 8:02:58 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: stuartcr
As God is omniscient, and cannot be wrong, doesn’t that mean that what He knows will happen, must happen?

I don't think it is a matter of God's omniscience being "wrong", but that He has already seen what will be - He is outside of time. Scripture says He knows the end from the beginning and, before there was anything, He knew everything that would be. We can't get our minds around that kind of knowledge, nor what it would be like to know all the what if's as well as the what will be's even the what CAN be. Everything He knows will happen WILL happen because He is already there. When people hear God knows what will happen and that all things work together to accomplish His will, they conclude that it means God makes all things happen according to His plan and, by default, toss out our understanding of free will. But, I don't think we should do that.

Think about a game of chess. I used to play it as a teenager and even one time beat my teacher, but I never got to the point of being anywhere near a novice much less an expert at it. Those that are experts, use intelligent "strategy" - they think ahead based on their opponent's moves and responses to their moves. The greatest players could have the game won after the first two moves! They could "see" it all as it unfolded. So, if God already "saw" the whole game from beginning to end, then already knowing how it would end allows Him to work it all out to BE his will. Knowing everything that will happen also means knowing all that MUST happen because it, in truth, already HAS happened. Like I said, it's one of those mysteries that, one day, we will also know - but not with the minds we have now.

54 posted on 08/15/2012 8:43:43 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Phinneous
Great question. It’s a lot different than in Christianity. I can look up if there is a connection between the two (Lucifer/Satan) but Satan is a nominal from the Hebrew verb meaning “to turn away [from a path]” So in Judaism “the Satan” is an influence to turn away from what G-d wants us to do (ask your local Orthodox rabbi what you should “do” if you’re Jewish, or, see my previous posts on noahide.org)

Thanks for taking the time to answer me. When you say you believe the Satan is a "nominal", an "influence" that turns us away from God's will for us, are you saying that Satan is an angel in the sense of the context of this thread? In Genesis 3 is where we are first introduced to an evil personage that seeks to tempt our first parents to disobey God's command. He is presented as a serpent and then later is called "Satan", the deceiver, that God would put at enmity with Eve's descendants:

    And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

There are other passages that tie Satan to the "anointed cherub" (Ezekiel 28) - the angel that stood over the throne of God:

    13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

So there is a narrative about this "special" angel who, through pride, rebelled against God and drew a third of the angels to rebel with him. Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and to the earth by the faithful angels of God.

So, on the subject of angels, does Judaism teach that there is a real spirit being, an evil angel, called Satan (as well as other things) and that he is at enmity with God and His creation? I agree that, as a created being, he has NO chance of besting Almighty God and, at times, God has even used Satan to accomplish God's will (i.e.; Job, Joseph). Just curious if Judaism understands angels in the same way as Christians do. Much of what we know about angels comes from the Old Testament, too. Thanks again.

55 posted on 08/15/2012 9:47:12 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Phinneous

If you don’t mind me posting to you, I have an observation I would like to share with you regarding one of your posts..

It is in regards to *Faith* you say within Judaism faith is not needed, because what you have is what you know...The truth of GOD.. I suppose you are conveying that school of thought from the belief in (Torah*) okay that I get that, however you were not born with that *Knowing* it was learned either taught to you by your parents, rabbi or holy books, so if you accepted that was it not by faith that you came to believe what you know???

Abraham, Moses even the Apostle Paul knew what they knew however when GOD called them out, they came to a total different understanding of what there role and relationship to GOD would be going forward....

I believe GOD calls people out wether Jew or Gentile and the ones who respond to the *Call* by Faith learn the truth which you call *Knowing*

An Atheist has no faith, so how could GOD ever call them out?

As one scripture in the Bible I think applies to the world is:

*Many are called but few are chosen*

Just wasn’t sure what you meant when you said you did not need faith...


56 posted on 08/15/2012 9:47:43 PM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: boatbums
Hang on there. God DOES know the end from the beginning, does he not? Before he even created the world, he already knew all those who would come to Him as well as all those who would reject him - this is because God is omniscient which means having complete, infinite or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things. However, this is not the same thing as saying God predestines who will or who won't be saved. Why God chose to do it all anyway is a mystery that I don't think our finite minds are all that capable of grasping. It doesn't change, however, that God certainly DOES know the "number". If he didn't, then he would be just as subject to time as we are and he would not be eternal or infinite. He would not be the I AM - the self-existant one and he would not be the only, true Almighty GOD.

Do you really believe that when the devil was placed over the 'mercy seat' as described in Ezekiel 28 before he rebelled that God knew he was going to rebel. That is not omniscient if the sole purpose was to 'create' something full well knowing it would turn evil just so it would be destroyed. Love is not an emotion that can be ordered, bought, sold, or commanded. AND the purpose of this flesh age was to give all souls the opportunity to pass through this flesh journey as the first requirement to 'see' the kingdom of God. John 3.

AND according to Paul some were chosen/elected before the foundation of this flesh age. AND by Paul's own life story he was NOT allow to follow his free will of ending Christianity.... Stephen was stoned because of describing the Christian 'history'!!!

57 posted on 08/15/2012 10:49:06 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: stuartcr
God knows the minute of each persons death, but He doesn’t know who will find Him? Isn’t God all-knowing?

Pure perfect love is what the Heavenly Father requires. Pure perfect love cannot be ordered, bought, sold, guilt, just look at liberals. Those that stood against the devil when he decided he was god and rebelled are the chosen/elect that Paul describes in Ephesians 1:4. They have already demonstrated that pure perfect love of the Heavenly Father. Yet they have to still come through this flesh journey because they have duties to fulfill. How many stood against the devil, before the foundation of this flesh age, I have no clue, nor do I worry about it.

There is only one unforgivable sin and only those of the very elect can commit that sin. AND until that appointed time arrives I do not believe any can claim they are of the very elect. No one knows with certainty if their flesh will be alive when that appointed time comes.

Some are given the 'spirit of slumber' Romans 11 whole chapter explains much that was already foretold by the holy prophets... those holy prophets would be the elect, that had already demonstrated their perfect love, and it was foreknown they could be counted upon to follow instructions.

People with 'freewill' unless they personally seek the Heavenly Father's attention are not going to get a visit like Paul did on his way to Damascus... That is not to say IF their ways interfere with THE Plan they won't be moved/pushed out of the WAY.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God.... The Heavenly Father always gave a 'warning' of what to expect and even still the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants on this earth are ignorant. BUT they are the children of God and only He knows their heart/mind. God is the judge, and He judges based upon the whole picture not what some flesh supreme being sets as precedence.

Perhaps ‘freewill’ is really just a belief? After all, even though what is believed to be ‘freewill’ is exercised continuesly, how would anyone prove that that exercise of ‘freewill’ wasn’t just part of God’s plan or destiny, and had to happen that way?

People believe many things, but if it is not of God or from God it is basically a vanity. We have the instruction manual and sometimes it cuts us all right to the bone. Some of Paul's writings leave me lower than low knowing that of myself and by myself I am/have been a miserable failure.... These flesh bodies have always given the soul a big hurdle to overcome. I take it day by day, knowing when that last soul left in heaven is conceived this flesh age is about to wrap up and then the real teaching of the WORD will begin.

58 posted on 08/15/2012 11:30:40 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: boatbums

I agree with what I think is your bottom line on the subject— we cannot understand everything about God, but perhaps one day it will all be revealed. I don’t dwell on these things because there is enough to dwell on daily.

I do believe that all of creation was made for God’s glory, not ours. Too many of us, too often, want to fashion God after OUR image. I hear comments such as: “I could never believe in a God who... (let’s bad things happen in some way or another)” God is who God is, not who we believe Him to be. In the Sunday School class I teach, I liken it to our roles as parents. We have children as much for us as we do for them. We want them to love us, but it something we cannot, nor should we want to, force them to do. An unsolicited statement of love from your child is among the greatest gifts one can receive. I can’t help but think God is the same way. He wants us to love Him, but won’t force the issue. And when we can express our love for God in the darkest times (see Job, for example), that is a great gift we can give to Him.

It is not about us.


59 posted on 08/16/2012 5:16:53 AM PDT by NCLaw441
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To: TaraP

If I said “not needed” I was a little too cheeky, however it is true that we ‘know’ our Torah and its observance to be true—we don’t rely on faith that it is true.

BUT, since one doesn’t hear G-d literally, like those at Sinai, or the prophets, or our sages (literally until the 18th century*) who had divine inspiration (a form of prophecy,) we do have a concept of faith in that which we can derive intellectually but not experience sensually. An analogy is having someone tell you all about what makes a 50,000 lb airplane fly, but not believing it until you see it with your own eyes.

So sorry to have let you ponder for a day or two a thought that Jews don’t have faith. It is an essential part of Judaism.

*The first rabbi of the Lubavitch chassidic dynasty (Rabbi Shneur Zalman ZT’L) said that our commentators up to the 18th century, had “ruach hakodesh” (heh, holy spirit...if you pardon the exact translation similarities to a non-Jewish concept) which they used to write their commentany on Torah and Jewish law.


60 posted on 08/16/2012 7:22:29 AM PDT by Phinneous
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To: Phinneous

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it...Just to expand on what you said, which I am not sure, if I totally follow you but would you say that Judaism is first based on intellect knowing the truth of Torah first, being part of a cultural community as being born into *Judaism* and then experiencing GOD by doing good deeds which I believe you call a mitzvah?

Something we are seeing today, is so many of the seas fish dying, and birds dying in mid-air and the scripture of Hosea
4 comes to mind...

“There is no faithfulness, no love,
no acknowledgment of God in the land.
2 There is only cursing,[a] lying and murder,
stealing and adultery;
they break all bounds,
and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
3 Because of this the land dries up,
and all who live in it waste away;
the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea are swept away.

My understanding of this scripture, is that it is the lack of *Faith* in GOD which causes this to happen and I am not sure if the lack of human intellect in GOD can cause this?


61 posted on 08/16/2012 10:37:10 AM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: Just mythoughts; stuartcr
scr>Doesn’t God already know who and when, someone is going to have faith and find Him?

NO God does NOT know the number, IF He did there would be NO reason to have this flesh age.

How does that square with Isaiah 46:10 ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
62 posted on 08/16/2012 10:46:28 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: MHGinTN; NCLaw441
God has told us His name is I Am

I'm afraid that is based on a very superficial reading
of an English translation that masks the NAME of G-d :
YHvH yod, hey, vav, hey

Gen 49:18 "For Your salvation I wait, YHvH.
לישועתך קויתי יהוה

YHvH appears over 7000 times
in the Holy WORD of G-d
as His NAME.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
63 posted on 08/16/2012 10:57:50 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012

What do you make of Rabbi Kaduri’s pronouncement before his death?


64 posted on 08/16/2012 12:14:34 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: MHGinTN
What do you make of Rabbi Kaduri’s pronouncement before his death?

I think he was on to something.

The blindness will end when
all the gentiles be come in.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
65 posted on 08/16/2012 2:12:59 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: boatbums

I agree that we need to believe we have free will, otherwise, this planet would be a real mess.


66 posted on 08/16/2012 4:45:01 PM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: stuartcr

Do you believe God has free will? ... He tells us He made us in His image ...


67 posted on 08/16/2012 4:57:01 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: NCLaw441
“The nature of God and His ability to transcend time and space are also elements of faith.”

Yes, IIRC, quantum mechanic theory has shown that time can go both directions at that level of the physical, we are limited in our realm by 2nd law of thermodynamics to one direction of time. But G-d would not be, so being outside the physical limitations of size and dimensions, G-d can experience all time simultaneously.

68 posted on 08/16/2012 5:44:44 PM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: Just mythoughts
Do you really believe that when the devil was placed over the 'mercy seat' as described in Ezekiel 28 before he rebelled that God knew he was going to rebel. That is not omniscient if the sole purpose was to 'create' something full well knowing it would turn evil just so it would be destroyed. Love is not an emotion that can be ordered, bought, sold, or commanded. AND the purpose of this flesh age was to give all souls the opportunity to pass through this flesh journey as the first requirement to 'see' the kingdom of God. John 3.

Do I believe God already knew that Satan would rebel? How could He not? Do you actually think God could be surprised by anything that happens? Does He then have to go to Plan B or C or D...? If all of life and time was unknowable and just random happening as it is happening, then how could God prove Himself to the Israelites by prophecy? God told them that the chief way they could know who was and was not a prophet of the Lord would be by what they said would happen, actually did happen exactly like they said it would. Now, how could God tell anyone things that would happen IN THE FUTURE unless He already knew? As He told them, no false god or idol could do that and ONLY the true God has that genuine attribute.

As I said, this is something that our mere, finite human minds do not have the capacity to comprehend. Scripture is rampant with words that speak to Almighty God's infinite and unsearchable wisdom and knowledge. That He knows the end from the beginning demonstrates that He is outside of what we call time. He is not bound by it, constrained by it, hindered by it. When you say, "Love is not an emotion that can be ordered, bought, sold, or commanded", I agree and I do not see the connection between God's omniscience and His "ordering" of love. We love Him because He FIRST loved us. We cannot limit by our own limited thinking why or how God does what God does. All we can know is what He tells us in His word and by the confirmation of His word within our hearts that His Spirit illuminates.

AND according to Paul some were chosen/elected before the foundation of this flesh age. AND by Paul's own life story he was NOT allow to follow his free will of ending Christianity.... Stephen was stoned because of describing the Christian 'history'!!!

Paul wrote in Ephesians chapter 1:

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

But is he really saying that, "some were chosen/elected before the foundation of this flesh age", or is he saying that God predetermined that those who would come to saving faith would be "holy and without blame" and "adopted" into the family of God and conformed to the image of Christ? I read this and other verses not so much that God has already predetermined who would or would not be saved - as if no one has a choice - but that He KNOWS all that would and has determined that all that do ARE set apart in Christ to the praise of His glory. Again, God is outside of time and that is the ONLY way that He could know us before the foundation of the earth, know all our days before there was a one of them and work ALL things to the good and His glory. When you say Paul was not "allowed" to follow his anti-Christian ways, I disagree. Of course Paul had the choice just like Mary had a choice in bearing the Savior, just as we all have the choice to choose God or reject Him. Paul was God's chosen, "he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15). But if Paul refused, he would NOT have been God's chosen one - he was not FORCED to be what God planned for him to be.

I think the problem is that we try to understand things we don't have the ability to understand and those things we accept by faith because God SAID it.

69 posted on 08/16/2012 5:46:05 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Phinneous
G-d is probably enjoying this thread.

5.56mm

70 posted on 08/16/2012 6:05:16 PM PDT by M Kehoe
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To: UriÂ’el-2012
How does that square with Isaiah 46:10 ?

This is what verse 10 says..Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure:'

My comment was NO God does NOT know the number, IF He did there would be NO reason to have this flesh age. As per Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 the only named entity to have been judged to death is the devil. There is a numbered fallen angles that were first recorded attempting to mess up the linage to Christ described in Genesis 6. And while they are not named there is a number given in Revelation that as Christ said would one last time allowed to do their thing before the second return of Christ. Matthew 24.

Ezekiel writes in the last few chapters much detail as to what will take place before 'judgment day'. AND as is Written in John 3:16 - 21.

I do not find Isaiah 46:10 in any opposition or contrary to what I said. I do find it interesting there are three time signatures noted 'end' from 'beginning' and from 'ancient times'.

71 posted on 08/16/2012 9:21:27 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: boatbums
Do I believe God already knew that Satan would rebel? How could He not? Do you actually think God could be surprised by anything that happens? Does He then have to go to Plan B or C or D...? If all of life and time was unknowable and just random happening as it is happening, then how could God prove Himself to the Israelites by prophecy? God told them that the chief way they could know who was and was not a prophet of the Lord would be by what they said would happen, actually did happen exactly like they said it would. Now, how could God tell anyone things that would happen IN THE FUTURE unless He already knew? As He told them, no false god or idol could do that and ONLY the true God has that genuine attribute. As I said, this is something that our mere, finite human minds do not have the capacity to comprehend. Scripture is rampant with words that speak to Almighty God's infinite and unsearchable wisdom and knowledge. That He knows the end from the beginning demonstrates that He is outside of what we call time. He is not bound by it, constrained by it, hindered by it. When you say, "Love is not an emotion that can be ordered, bought, sold, or commanded", I agree and I do not see the connection between God's omniscience and His "ordering" of love. We love Him because He FIRST loved us. We cannot limit by our own limited thinking why or how God does what God does. All we can know is what He tells us in His word and by the confirmation of His word within our hearts that His Spirit illuminates.

Not everyone that God created loved - loves Him, else we would NOT have had to have this flesh age. Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

I am guessing that Christians believe that Christ existed before He came to this flesh age as a babe? Seems like a natural 'guess', and as stated here that the 'children' us existed prior to our conception. AND that is what Paul is referencing when the words 'foundation of this world', is giving a time signature, because the words are actually a verb meaning the casting down - overthrow. AND Genesis 1:2 describes what happened to this earth in that rebellion or casting down - overthrow, before this flesh age began.

We Christians know with certainty one thing, who is the victor when this 'mess' all gets sorted out. But as any loving Father/Mother have for their own flesh children it would take irrefutable proof to 'destroy' a child. Likewise, the Creator requires His own proof without question to destroy those that have no natural love for and of Him....

To say He already knows, who has that 'love' and who does not without total and complete understanding of WHO He literally is, says that God deliberately created 'evil', and I do not for one minute believe that is our Heavenly Father.

To me it is quite obvious that given the scenario of the Garden of Eden, there was Plan B.

Paul wrote in Ephesians chapter 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. But is he really saying that, "some were chosen/elected before the foundation of this flesh age", or is he saying that God predetermined that those who would come to saving faith would be "holy and without blame" and "adopted" into the family of God and conformed to the image of Christ? I read this and other verses not so much that God has already predetermined who would or would not be saved - as if no one has a choice - but that He KNOWS all that would and has determined that all that do ARE set apart in Christ to the praise of His glory. Again, God is outside of time and that is the ONLY way that He could know us before the foundation of the earth, know all our days before there was a one of them and work ALL things to the good and His glory. When you say Paul was not "allowed" to follow his anti-Christian ways, I disagree. Of course Paul had the choice just like Mary had a choice in bearing the Savior, just as we all have the choice to choose God or reject Him. Paul was God's chosen, "he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15). But if Paul refused, he would NOT have been God's chosen one - he was not FORCED to be what God planned for him to be. I think the problem is that we try to understand things we don't have the ability to understand and those things we accept by faith because God SAID it.

The words 'foundation of this world' is a verb that means casting down - overthrow. Paul says before the casting down - overthrow some stayed loyal to the Heavenly Father. That is what makes them 'chosen/elected' to carry forth God's plan through this flesh age. And we can know some of them by who were chosen to put down the WORD of God.

I keep hearing/reading some write/say that God is outside of time, which makes NO sense to me. Because of what Peter wrote in IIPeter 3, whole chapter. Peter wrote IIPeter 3:5 For 'this' they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (This is not talking about Noah's flood but referencing Genesis 1:2.)

6 Whereby the world that then *was* perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth which are *now*, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 BUT, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,

that one day is with the LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This is not outside of time it is the ultimate perfect time setter and keeper.

72 posted on 08/16/2012 10:07:45 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: Phinneous
"What Are Angels"

Generally children 12 and under.

73 posted on 08/16/2012 10:11:32 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: Just mythoughts
Not everyone that God created loved - loves Him, else we would NOT have had to have this flesh age. Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Well, obviously not everyone God created will love Him - I never said any differently. As to us having to have "this flesh age", I can only say two things:

1) This flesh age is the time of man existing upon earth starting with Adam and Eve and ending at the Great White Throne Judgment after which God creates a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness (Revelation 21).

2) What is the name of the religion you follow? or is it part of just your thoughts?

I am guessing that Christians believe that Christ existed before He came to this flesh age as a babe? Seems like a natural 'guess', and as stated here that the 'children' us existed prior to our conception.

Yes, Christians DO believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is from everlasting to everlasting. He always was and always will be as the second person of the Trinity. He became a man - took on the form of a man - at the incarnation. It is spoken of in Hebrews 2 as well as several other passages. But, NO, I do not agree that "us" existed before conception nor from eternity simply because we are NOT God. We are created beings and that means we had a time where we began. The Son of God did not have a beginning. We are most certainly different. Jesus "shared" in our humanity so that his sinless life could be made a propitiation for our sins. By His death, he has redeemed us from an eternal death - separation from God for eternity.

AND that is what Paul is referencing when the words 'foundation of this world', is giving a time signature, because the words are actually a verb meaning the casting down - overthrow. AND Genesis 1:2 describes what happened to this earth in that rebellion or casting down - overthrow, before this flesh age began.

When Paul spoke of God choosing us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) it is NOT speaking about some preexistence of our souls but of God's foreknowledge and His foreordaining of what we were to become "holy and without blame before him in love". What you are saying sounds a little like the Mormon doctrine of preexisting souls that take on human form from "Father God" - who is populating the earth and who, at one time was also a man and is now exalted. Are you a Mormon?

We Christians know with certainty one thing, who is the victor when this 'mess' all gets sorted out. But as any loving Father/Mother have for their own flesh children it would take irrefutable proof to 'destroy' a child. Likewise, the Creator requires His own proof without question to destroy those that have no natural love for and of Him....

God knows the heart of every person, no outward proof need convince Him who are or are not His children. We are born again into the family of God when we accept the gift of eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ.

To say He already knows, who has that 'love' and who does not without total and complete understanding of WHO He literally is, says that God deliberately created 'evil', and I do not for one minute believe that is our Heavenly Father.

To say He already knows is stating the truth of what God, himself, has affirmed by His word. As for God creating evil, I would say he created the possibility for mankind and angels to chose evil. Giving of a free will allows that some will choose to reject the good. But we also know that "what is meant for evil, God meant for good", so nothing can supersede God's perfect will. I don't claim to understand how that happens, I just believe that is what God has said.

To me it is quite obvious that given the scenario of the Garden of Eden, there was Plan B.

I disagree. There is no need for a Plan B if you work all things according to your perfect will.

You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “You did not make me”? Can the pot say to the potter, “You know nothing”? (Isaiah 29:16)

“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’? Woe to the one who says to a father, ‘What have you begotten?’ or to a mother, ‘What have you brought to birth?’ (Isaiah 45:9-10)

74 posted on 08/16/2012 11:24:23 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
Well, obviously not everyone God created will love Him - I never said any differently. As to us having to have "this flesh age", I can only say two things: 1) This flesh age is the time of man existing upon earth starting with Adam and Eve and ending at the Great White Throne Judgment after which God creates a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness (Revelation 21). 2) What is the name of the religion you follow? or is it part of just your thoughts?

When were all souls . sons of God created? Moses in writing down the Genesis creation account for the Heavenly Father said NOT one Word about the when of the creation of the souls. Yes the soul existed as per the Adam was not alive until the 'breath of life' means soul was breathed into his nostrils.

But yet planted right there in the Scripture is stated that in the midst of the Garden was the 'tree of life' and the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil'. So the 'devil' who this tree of the knowledge of good and evil symbolizes existed before the formation of the Adam's flesh body.

I am Christian. Christ said take ye heed I have foretold you all things.... before one WORD of the so called NewTestament was ever placed on animal skins or plant fibers.

IT was a very tough discovery to find out that there is no mention of an apple orchard that Eve served up that sinful apple to her husband that I was taught in my childhood. So as I 'read' the WORD, I began to make a check list of all the lies, untruths, and deceptions I kept coming across that has infiltrated most of modern 'divisions' in Christianity.

Oh, lest I sound 'vain', I have discovered that I maybe have one thread of the whole cloth that is contained within God's HOLY WORD. So I don't have a particular denomination I am attached. AND God did give me a brain and He does expect it to be used.

Yes, Christians DO believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is from everlasting to everlasting. He always was and always will be as the second person of the Trinity. He became a man - took on the form of a man - at the incarnation. It is spoken of in Hebrews 2 as well as several other passages. But, NO, I do not agree that "us" existed before conception nor from eternity simply because we are NOT God. We are created beings and that means we had a time where we began. The Son of God did not have a beginning. We are most certainly different. Jesus "shared" in our humanity so that his sinless life could be made a propitiation for our sins. By His death, he has redeemed us from an eternal death - separation from God for eternity.

So is there a 'soul' manufacturing plant in heaven that every time an egg is fertilized God plugs in a freshly created soul?

Paul repeats for Christians what God had to say about Jacob and Esau. Jacob I loved and Esau I hated... Paul say that Esau was hated even before he was born having done good or bad.... paraphrasing of course, but IF required I will provide the Scripture from the so called old and new if necessary. Jeremiah was told that God knew him before he was ever placed in his mother's womb... Impossible to know something that did not already exist. Now if God knew Jeremiah before he was placed in his mother's womb, God also know every other soul He created.

This flesh age really does have so many blinded and held down by gravity.

When Paul spoke of God choosing us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) it is NOT speaking about some preexistence of our souls but of God's foreknowledge and His foreordaining of what we were to become "holy and without blame before him in love". What you are saying sounds a little like the Mormon doctrine of preexisting souls that take on human form from "Father God" - who is populating the earth and who, at one time was also a man and is now exalted. Are you a Mormon?

No I am not a Mormon. I am not interested in what a new age prophet wrote, IT takes all my available time to search and study those holy prophets that Christ and Paul continually quoted. How many times in the 'NEW' is the phrase 'foundation of the world' used? And by WHOM? It is a time signature of a specific event, and sometimes in the form of a verb, other times as a noun. Ephesians 1:4... Paul uses it specifically as a verb. Check it out, see what Strong's says.

I disagree. There is no need for a Plan B if you work all things according to your perfect will. You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “You did not make me”? Can the pot say to the potter, “You know nothing”? (Isaiah 29:16) “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’? Woe to the one who says to a father, ‘What have you begotten?’ or to a mother, ‘What have you brought to birth?’ (Isaiah 45:9-10)

I am NOT arguing with the Potter.

75 posted on 08/17/2012 12:08:19 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: MHGinTN

No


76 posted on 08/17/2012 9:24:30 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: MHGinTN

No


77 posted on 08/17/2012 9:24:46 AM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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To: stuartcr

Do you believe love can be compelled?


78 posted on 08/17/2012 10:29:28 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Just mythoughts
Just a few thoughts on your reply:

When were all souls . sons of God created? Moses in writing down the Genesis creation account for the Heavenly Father said NOT one Word about the when of the creation of the souls. Yes the soul existed as per the Adam was not alive until the 'breath of life' means soul was breathed into his nostrils.

Let's be sure that we are talking about the same things here. The "souls" of mankind are different than the angels. The angels have ALL been created already and no more are being made. Long ago, they made a choice for Almighty God or rebellion with the angel now called Satan. The third of the angels that rebelled were cast out of heaven by the two-thirds remaining led by Michael, the archangel. The "fallen" angels were cast to earth - so some form of an "earth" already existed, right? There is conjecture about what Genesis 1:2, "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.", means. It is this state where God "begins" creation of the world we know. That is a WHOLE 'nuther thread by itself, but may explain how the earth is so old and what part dinosaurs played and when.

The Scriptures speak of the term "sons of God" and it is used both for angels as well as people. But, as for the sons of God being preexistent souls "waiting" for bodies to indwell on earth, that is NOT something taught in Scripture but IS an idea Joseph Smith came up with which is why I ask if you were a Mormon. Glad to hear you are not snagged in that cult. As to when the soul of a human being begins, we go back to the first man, Adam. God, we read in Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." So, it seems clear to me that until God breathed the breath of life into the lifeless body of Adam, he was NOT a living soul. It is only AFTER God does this that Adam BECAME a living soul. The Hebrew word for "breathed" is naphach and actually just means: to blow. So God blew into Adam's nostrils the "breath of life". The "breath" is a feminine noun in Hebrew, nĕshamah and means "breath" or "spirit". He breathed the breath of LIFE, where life is chay, a word meaning "living, lively, active" "a living thing". Without the "breath of life" ALL living things cease to BE living things, agreed? And man became a living "soul". This word in Hebrew, nephesh, is interesting because it means:

    1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man

    b) living being

    c) living being (with life in the blood)

    d) the man himself, self, person or individual

    e) seat of the appetites

    f) seat of emotions and passions P> g) activity of mind

    h) activity of the will

    i) activity of the character

So, basically, everything that makes a person ALIVE is what a living soul means. As to all these pre-existent disembodied souls floating around in heaven waiting to be placed in a human body, that is again NOT something Scripture teaches anywhere. Human life only begins when the human life begins - at fertilization of the sperm and egg. A new, never before existing, totally unique human life begins. Personally, I believe that is when the soul is also created. Something that never before came to be has come to be. There is no "'soul' manufacturing plant in heaven", only a creator God that breaths the breath of life and creates a living soul.

But yet planted right there in the Scripture is stated that in the midst of the Garden was the 'tree of life' and the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil'. So the 'devil' who this tree of the knowledge of good and evil symbolizes existed before the formation of the Adam's flesh body.

Not sure where you are getting the idea that the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" symbolizes the Devil, but it is NOT saying that. It was AFTER God formed Adam, that He planted a garden. Genesis 2:8,9 says:

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And in Genesis 2:15-17, we learn:

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Both of trees were planted in the garden and it was ONLY the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam was forbidden to eat. ALL the other ones he could eat of. The devil existed before this garden did and before Adam was created. We only know that AFTER Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden tree, that the "death" God warned them about was a physical as well as spiritual death. At that very moment, their physical bodies started to age and deteriorate. They were cast out of the garden lest they eat of the Tree of Life, remember, and an angel was set guard over it. They could not eat from this tree because:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22-24).

We don't hear about this Tree of Life until Revelation (the last book of the Bible) speaks about it. This tree is in the midst of the new Jerusalem during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ on earth. It is used for keeping those alive for the thousand years in their human bodies that come to worship Christ. In Revelation 2:7, is the first mention:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Then again in Revelation 22:2 and verse 14-

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Hope that clears it up for you about those two special trees. As to why people came up with the idea of the fruit being an "apple", we can only guess they made a guess. Certainly, apples are perfectly fine to eat and are not called a sin. It doesn't matter what kind of fruit it was, does it? Sure, there are more important things people make up about the Bible, that's why it is important to do what you are doing - study the Word of God, pray for the Holy Spirit to open your heart and mind to understand. It doesn't hurt at all to find a good Bible-teaching church where you can fellowship with others and learn in an environment where you are cared about and loved. There have been many faithful and God-loving Christians that have gone before us who have devoted their lives to learning the Scriptures and there are many great books out there that can assist you in your journey to knowledge. I will pray for you to find that faith home.

79 posted on 08/17/2012 9:59:26 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: MHGinTN

No


80 posted on 08/18/2012 7:03:38 PM PDT by stuartcr ("When silence speaks, it speaks only to those that have already decided what they want to hear.")
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