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White Horse Prophecy [Mitt's Loss brings obvious conclusion that Mormon leaders falsely prophesied]
MessagetoEagle.com ^ | Nov. 8, 2012 | Dustin Naef

Posted on 11/10/2012 7:59:09 AM PST by Colofornian

MessageToEagle.com - Normally, as a matter of personal preference I don’t get into politics, but when we have a presidential campaign that begins to cross over into the strange twilight zone of religious weirdness that centers on the one person who’s going to control the most powerful government and army on the face of the earth, well, it brings up some unusual scenarios to wonder about.

It is being reported in the media today that former presidential candidate Mitt Romney only wrote a victory speech for Election Day; presumably a harried, last minute scramble to revise his speech was being suggested as the reason behind the Romney-Ryan campaigns’ sluggish reluctance to concede their party’s unthinkable defeat.

Electoral Votes:

Barack Obama: 303 Mitt Romney: 206

Curiously, one has to wonder whether it was Romney’s obsession with polls and tracking data that lead to this overextension of hubris; his unshakable faith that he would be the next president of the United States—or could it have been Romney’s Mormon faith itself that lead him to believe victory was all but assured by some divine mandate?

Ascending to the office of the presidency has always been a coveted part of the mission of the Mormon Church, which began with its founder Joseph Smith, who as a young man experienced a close encounter with a being from another planet named Moroni, who descended from the heavens and instructed Smith to found a new religion (as seen on History Channel’s Ancient Aliens, S3E01)—today, in Ufology, such a happenstance would likely be classified as a contactee CE5 level event.

“I saw a pillar of light . . . which descended gradually until it fell upon me” – Joseph Smith.

In 1844 Joseph Smith, an apparent UFO contactee and the founder of the Mormon Church, brazenly launched his own political campaign for President of the United States. His stated goal was to overthrow the U.S. Constitution, and bring about a Mormon theocracy to the Nation.

Smith’s candidacy was always long shot, but that didn’t stop him from rallying his people to help clinch his destiny to be an independent commander in chief of the “army of God”.

Smith prophesied that if the U.S. Congress did not bow to his demands that “they shall be broken up as a government and God shall damn them.” He foresaw the emergence of “the one Mighty and Strong”—a leader who would “set in order the house of God”.

Smith’s call for a “theodemocracy where God and his people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteous matters” evidently did not sit well with the majority of voters in the United States, and brought down a lot of bad press and hostility upon the Mormons. Smith’s presidential campaign was cut short while he was sitting in jail facing charges of treason and inciting a riot; an angry mob broke into the jailhouse and brought him to justice by shooting him to death.

Out of this early chapter of U.S. history developed what has became known in the Mormon Church as the “White Horse Prophecy”—a controversial prediction that someday a great Mormon leader, who, at a time when the U.S. Constitution “hangs like a thread as fine as a silk fiber”, would be elected President.

I know a little bit about Mormonism and their beliefs. I grew up and lived in Salt Lake City most all my life, I sat through many days of LDS seminary at public schools, and I also attended a private Mormon school as a teenager.

My family has roots in the Mormon pioneer heritage and early history. My ancestors, the Neff’s, came to the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, from Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. My great-great-great-grandfather John Neff, Sr. settled Neff’s canyon in East Millcreek, Utah. He was also a close friend of Brigham Young and accompanied him into Northern Utah to proselyte amongst the Native Americans there. His daughter, Mary Ann Neff, married the notorious Mormon gunslinger and Utah folkhero Orrin Porter Rockwell.

Orrin Porter Rockwell was one scary-looking son of a bitch . . .

Rockwell served as a loyal henchman to Church founders Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young—and was affectionately nick-named ‘Ol’ Port’ the ‘Destroying Angel of Mormondom’.

In his despicable and sordid history, Ol’ Port was intimately connected to political assassinations, revenge-killings, and gruesome Indian massacres. He’s praised for having avenged the Prophet Joseph Smith’s murder by shooting one of the conspirators with his musket while riding astride a horse.

There have been a few failed attempts in various movies and books to elevate the psychopath to the status of a gritty American hero of the old west —fortunately, none of them have really stuck.

A few of the many curious tenants of Mormonism I heard growing up in Salt Lake City were as follows . . .

*Cain, the killer of his brother Abel, is alive and wanders the earth, wearing no clothing but being covered by hair, and that LDS Church apostle David W. Patten encountered him once; and that reported sightings of Bigfoot can be explained by this story.

*Blacks were neutral in the War in Heaven, and that is why they were not allowed to hold the Mormon priesthood before 1978.

*Albert Einstein supposedly once said that LDS Church apostle James E. Talmage was the smartest man he had ever met.

*The Second Coming was imminent, and when I was age 25 I would be living in the “Last Days” (I’m in my 40’s now).

And here’s where Mitt Romney’s presidential candidacy enters the picture—

I remember my 7th grade LDS seminary teacher sermonizing about the “signs” of the ‘Last Days’.

One of his favorite ‘signs’ that he liked to talk about was that a great Mormon leader would be elected President of the United States, and this would be a major indication that the Last Days were imminent, e.g. the White Horse Prophecy.

Some say that the White Horse Prophecy was written by Joseph Smith himself, while others dispute that claim. According to the Salt Lake City Tribune:

The disputed prophecy was recorded in a diary entry of a Mormon who had heard the tale from two men who were with Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, Ill. when he supposedly declared the prophecy. “You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed,” the diary entry quotes Smith as saying. “It will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber.”

Not only will the Mormons save the Constitution, under the prediction, but the prophecy goes further, insinuating that Mormons will control the government.

“Power will be given to the White Horse to rebuke the nations afar off, and you obey it, for the laws go forth from Zion,” the prophecy says.

Publicly, the Mormon Church doesn’t officially endorse the ‘White Horse Prophecy’ as doctrine, and will deny anything to do with it (just as Romney has whenever it’s been brought up)—however, there’s a telling piece of Mormon dogma that people may find disturbing. It was set in place by Joseph Smith himself, and is referred to as “lying for the Lord.”

As an act of self preservation or to protect the Mormon Church, it is doctrinally permissive to lie about your beliefs or intentions. In other words the ends justify the means. Smith did it with regard to his polygamous lifestyle. Brigham Young did it when he claimed that only Paiute Indians were responsible for the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Over and over again, Mitt Romney marginalized his devout Mormon background, and downplayed its significance throughout his entire campaign. But in the 1970’s the ‘Cougar Club’ at Brigham Young University declared their admiration of Mitt and predicted that he’d be the president of the United States one day. According to an article on Salon.com:

…the Cougar Club — the all male, all white social club at Brigham Young University in Salt Lake City (blacks were excluded from full membership in the Mormon church until 1978) — was humming with talk that its president, Mitt Romney, would become the first Mormon president of the United States. “If not Mitt, then who?” was the ubiquitous slogan within the elite organization. The pious world of BYU was expected to spawn the man who would lead the Mormons into the White House and fulfill the prophecies of the church’s founder, Joseph Smith Jr., which Romney has avidly sought to realize.

With all this in mind, it’s hard not to look back and wonder . . .

Could Mitt Romney have been intending to run the United States as a Mormon theocratic state, as fortold by his Church’s prophet Joseph Smith?

Would a President Romney have executed the will of the people of the United States, and answered to the people—or would he only answer to God via the hierarchy of the Mormon Church?

What if a “revelation” or “vision” was received by the current President of the LDS Church (or Prophet), and passed on to ‘President Romney’ as a directive from God?–would Romney have executed that directive, even if it had gone against the will of the U.S. people, or the World?

Thankfully, this is probably one mystery we’ll never know the answer to . . .

Written by Dustin Naef - MessageToEagle.com Contributor

About the author: Dustin Naef has been a student of ancient mysteries and the paranormal for as long as he can remember. He has worked in screenwriting, graphic design and illustration, produced and designed video best-selling games, and is currently involved in the production of a film documentary and book about the mysteries surrounding Mount Shasta, California.

If you wish to follow Dustin Naef: Dustin's website: http://www.dustinnaef.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dustinnaef.mountshasta https://www.facebook.com/MountShastaFilm


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Eastern Religions; Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: byu; falseprophecy; idiotsdidntvote4mitt; lds; ldschurch; mormons; romney2012; romneyandgod; whitehorseprophecy
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To: Colofornian

One of his favorite ‘signs’ that he liked to talk about was that a great Mormon leader would be elected President of the United States, and this would be a major indication that the Last Days were imminent, e.g. the White Horse Prophecy.
_______________________________________

were doomed then...

Obama is a Mormon...


51 posted on 11/10/2012 10:26:18 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: svcw
Completely debunked. But I’m sure those of you who bring up statements out of context to try to make Mitt fit that bill already know this but refuse to post these along with the snips of the actual statements about the Constitution hanging by a thread, which will happen.

Here are at least 3, one going back to an official statement clear back in 1918.

In General Conference, October 1918, Joseph F. Smith made the following comments:

The ridiculous story about the “red horse,” and “the black horse,” and “the white horse,” and a lot of trash that has been circulated about and printed and sent around as a great revelation given by the Prophet Joseph Smith, is a matter that was gotten up, I understand, some ten years after the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by two of our brethren who put together some broken sentences from the Prophet that they may have heard from time to time, and formulated this so-called revelation out of it, and it was never spoken by the prophet in the manner in which they have put it forth. It is simply false; that is all there is to it.

Elder Bruce R McConkie also commented on the so called “prophecy”:

From time to time, accounts of various supposed visions, revelations, and prophecies are spread forth by and among the Latter-day Saints, who should know better than to believe or spread such false information. One of these false and deceptive documents that has cropped up again and again for over a century is the so-called White Horse Prophecy. This supposed prophecy purports to be a long and detailed account by the Prophet Joseph Smith concerning the wars, turmoils, and difficulties which should exist in the last days.

In 2010 the Church released a statement on the “‘White Horse Prophecy:

“The so-called ‘White Horse Prophecy’ is based on accounts that have not been substantiated by historical research and is not embraced as Church doctrine.”

--------------------

Again, it has been said by LDS Leadership repeatedly that the Constitution will “NOT BE SAVED IN WASHINGTON”.

If you all choose to ignore such statements to fit your agenda, that’s up to you. You will interpret however you see fit. I’ve said my peace. Out.

52 posted on 11/10/2012 10:27:27 AM PST by Ripliancum (Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you. -Eph. 4:31)
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To: blueunicorn6
You are welcome. I grew up around Mormons, so I know what you’re writing about.

Well, if you grew up 'round Mormons, then you know had Romney won, the reverse would have happened: Lds would have already been bringing up this prophecy to others.

To paraphrase one ex-Mormon as he put it after the election, "This would have sucked if I'd had to listen to this every day for the next four years."

53 posted on 11/10/2012 10:34:13 AM PST by Colofornian (Some say "we're not voting 4 'pastor-in-chief'" --as if "gods-in-embryo" were divine only on Sundays)
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To: polkajello

yes but first you have to cut the Freemasonry signs off the “breasts” and knees and bury them reverently in the dirt...


54 posted on 11/10/2012 10:34:13 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Ripliancum

Did you actually read my post? My mormon family believes in the WHP, they go back to Smith and Young - they believe it and believe that Mitt Romney was the answer.
I do not care what the PR spin is, they believe it their friends believe it, that is the reality not the PR


55 posted on 11/10/2012 10:39:43 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Ripliancum

And as Ezra Taft Benson, President of the LDS Church explained so very clearly, the Constitution WON”T BE SAVED IN WASHINGTON.
_________________________________________

ETB was senile and bedridden the last few years of his life...

Other Mormon leaders made the decisions and signed his name to documents...


56 posted on 11/10/2012 10:42:00 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Errant; Colofornian

I think Glenn Beck does think he is the fulfillment of the prophecy (just like Mitt and probably Reid), but while the LDS went whole hog to back Mitt, Beck and Reid won’t get as much support simply because they are converts while Mitt is “Mormon royalty” - pioneer stock who had an uncle who was next in line to be prophet when he died.

Mormons have this hierarchy based upon how ‘valiant’ you were as a spirit child in the ‘war in heaven’.

LDS Prophet = Very Very Valiant
LDS Pioneer/descendents = Very Valiant
Child of Converts born ‘in the covenant’ = valiant
convert = less valiant (and that kinda depends on the age you converted, if young enough to be married in temple and go on mission more valiant than later converts)
Blacks = fence sitters


57 posted on 11/10/2012 10:44:12 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Are you serious?

Have you no shame in making such statements? This is why I don't engage you, because of your tactics. Do not expect another post from me to you.

Ezra Taft Benson, speaking in his own words: THE CONSTITUTION WILL NOT BE SAVED IN WASHINGTON.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxu-zw004jc

58 posted on 11/10/2012 10:45:46 AM PST by Ripliancum (Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you. -Eph. 4:31)
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To: Ripliancum; svcw; All
Here are at least 3, one going back to an official statement clear back in 1918. In General Conference, October 1918, Joseph F. Smith made the following comments:

ALL: Ripliancum, a Mormon apologist, cites one Lds "prophet" at a general conference (1918). My posts #3 & #4 -- coupled with post #1 -- references four Lds "prophets" making statements spanning over 50 years! (1912-->1963)

In fact, Rip cites Joseph F. Smith's 1918 statement...but note Joseph F. Smith was on both sides of the fence on this one...'Cause at the October 1912 General Conference, Joseph F. Smith said:

“Joseph Smith... predicted that the time would come, ‘when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints above all other people in the world would come to the rescue.” - Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1912, p. 11

And: "Now, these are the commandments of God, the principles contained in these commandments of the great Eternal are the principles that underly the Constitution of our country and all just laws. Joseph Smith, the prophet, was inspired to affirm and ratify this truth, and he further predicted that the time would come, when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints above all other people in the world would come to the rescue of that great and glorious palladium of our liberty.” - Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1912, p. 11

Joseph F. Smith may have indeed "changed his mind" about all that...or, perhaps since he was only a month away from both his 80th birthday and his death -- and was about to begin having Halloween nightmares about seeing dead people walk around his place later that month in October of 1918...perhaps he wasn't as "lucid" as earlier in his life.

59 posted on 11/10/2012 10:47:40 AM PST by Colofornian (Some say "we're not voting 4 'pastor-in-chief'" --as if "gods-in-embryo" were divine only on Sundays)
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To: Hardraade; Colofornian

Beliefs in UFOs and paranormal are normal for Mormons, since their God was really an alien who lives near a planet called Kolob and the early leaders taught the sun and moon were populated by aliens dressed as Quakers.

Also, visits from ghosts and spirits is a huge part of their genealogy and temple rites and history/theology.

For an ex-mormon who has been taught from birth these things and that the Bible isn’t trustworthy or God is just a man, it makes sense that the author would go this direction.


60 posted on 11/10/2012 10:48:59 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; Tennessee Nana

Nana, could you post that pic of Mitt and Monson about the ‘connections’? I loved that one.


61 posted on 11/10/2012 10:49:55 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Colofornian

And not a single one of your references validate the WHite Horse Prophecy, but only the truth that it stole from, that the Constitution will indeed hang by a thread and be saved by members of the church among others.

No where do you state in your snippets that the WHP is true, nor that Mitt is the one.

Interpret as you wish, the truth is out.


62 posted on 11/10/2012 10:52:13 AM PST by Ripliancum (Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you. -Eph. 4:31)
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To: Ripliancum

Nice try. You guys tried to tie Mitt to the so called “prophesy” that never was.

- - - - - -
FAIL Rip. The prophecy is engraved in the LDS owned/run museum at the Liberty Jail (where it was given). The leaders have consistently taught it in General Conference.

Give it up, like it or not, the prophecy existed and is false.


63 posted on 11/10/2012 10:54:16 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: justa-hairyape; Colofornian

Romney underestimated the depth of evil that he was up against.

- - - - —
I think it was more that he really believed his god would make this happen and he didn’t have to try. He thought he was fulfilling prophecy and expected it to be handed to him. The arrogance of Mormons NEVER ceases to astound me.


64 posted on 11/10/2012 10:56:23 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: JoeFromSidney

Sounds an awful lot like the Muslim doctrine of taqiyya. It’s OK to lie to infidels to protect the Muslim faith.

- - - - -
That is exactly what it is and it is pervasive.

When I was training to be an LDS missionary, I was given a list of LDS doctrines/beliefs NOT to teach or to outright lie about if it was brought up.

When asked why if we (as Mormons) had the only truth (as they teach) we couldn’t’ be honest. My instructor said “If we were honest, no one would join”.


65 posted on 11/10/2012 10:59:07 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Ripliancum

ETB was senile and bedridden the last few years of his life...

Other Mormon leaders made the decisions and signed his name to documents...


66 posted on 11/10/2012 11:01:55 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian
In contrast, God's truth is "the concept of free and full forgiveness through Christ" rather than the "earned forgiveness taught in Mormonism."

Yes, that is true Colofornian, however, what also comes with that forgiveness is a new birth, a change of heart where "All things become new, old things pass away" and where God replaces our dirty rags of self-righteousness with a gleaming white robe of his Righteousness.

To often the falsehood is preached that God forgives us but we keep sinning.

Christ came to give us freedom and victory over our sin, otherwise, we are stuck in the Old Testament with it's continual need of sacrifices for our sins.
67 posted on 11/10/2012 11:02:20 AM PST by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency.)
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To: PMAS; aimhigh; AmericanArchConservative; aMorePerfectUnion; R; annieokie; AnTiw1; BearRepublic81; ..
Romans 13:1-7 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

I will render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's but I WILL NOT compromise one iota on the truth of God's word nor in matters of morals or integrity.

Christians throughout history have fared worse under worse circumstances than we're facing now but have kept their eyes on the prize.

Ironically, as I'm typing, the hymn, *It is Well with My Soul* is playing.

I almost died from an infection just over a month ago and I fear neither what man can do to me or death.

In Christ we are more than conquerors.

Our mission, or mandate now as I see it, is to win as many into the kingdom before God brings down the curtain.

68 posted on 11/10/2012 11:05:45 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name; Tau Food; Colofornian; greyfoxx39

Thank you guys. For many of us, both ex-mormon and/or in ministry to the LDS, part of our calling is to warn others about what the LDS church really teaches.

For me, it is personal. As a teenager, all I knew about the LDS church was what my best friend told (lied) me. My ignorance and nominal Christianity (I wasn’t born again) coupled with the beautiful lies the missionaries told me led me to join. After I joined, I started to find out what they really believed and I bought it. Leaving was long and painful but God used Mormonism to break me to the point I accepted Christ.

I don’t want others fooled the way I was.


69 posted on 11/10/2012 11:05:51 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Ripliancum; reaganaut; All
No where do you state in your snippets that the WHP is true...

Thanks for your response, Rip.

On the first point, I guess I gotta ask you: If there wasn't some attempted acknowledgment of speaking forth some future event, why did official Lds general conference speakers bring it up
-- by my count at least 22 times (21 of which were positive...almost of a "forecast" nature)...
...over the course of 50 years? (October 1912-->April 1963)

If Lds consistently held their general conferences thru ALL the war years, then that's 104 conferences! For the White Horse Prophecy to get a positive mention in 21 out of 104 consecutive general conferences, that's a "batting average" of over .200 (over 20%).

...nor that Mitt is the one...

Well, that's easy to say now.

That's not what the white Cougar Club was saying in the 1970s...

From the article: ...in the 1970’s the ‘Cougar Club’ at Brigham Young University declared their admiration of Mitt and predicted that he’d be the president of the United States one day. According to an article on Salon.com: …the Cougar Club — the all male, all white social club at Brigham Young University in Salt Lake City (blacks were excluded from full membership in the Mormon church until 1978) — was humming with talk that its president, Mitt Romney, would become the first Mormon president of the United States. “If not Mitt, then who?” was the ubiquitous slogan within the elite organization. The pious world of BYU was expected to spawn the man who would lead the Mormons into the White House and fulfill the prophecies of the church’s founder, Joseph Smith Jr., which Romney has avidly sought to realize.

Ya gotta understand, too, that these Cougar Club members were taking their cue from Mitt's father, who ran for POTUS in 1968. In 1967, George Romney said:

“Anyone can look at the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith... Brigham Young and others.... I have always felt that they meant that sometime the question of whether we are going to proceed on the basis of the Constitution would arise and at this point government leaders who were Mormons would be involved in answering that question.”- George Romney, interview in “A Man’s Religion and American Politics: An Interview with Governor Romney,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1967, v. 2, p. 25

Now, certainly George Romney broadened it beyond one person...and said "leaders" plural...but we all know Mitt Romney would have put a Mormon or two in his Cabinet had he been elected.

But I'll ask you what the Cougar Club members asked each other in the 1970s: "If not Mitt, then who?"

70 posted on 11/10/2012 11:08:14 AM PST by Colofornian (Some say "we're not voting 4 'pastor-in-chief'" --as if "gods-in-embryo" were divine only on Sundays)
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To: righttackle44

I think you may be right.


71 posted on 11/10/2012 11:10:04 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: metmom

I agree, I’m having my sons read “The Harbinger” one of the best books I have ever read and it explains a lot of things going on right now, plus it is a good way to get people to start thinking more about God.


72 posted on 11/10/2012 11:13:21 AM PST by PMAS (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing)
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To: reaganaut
I am the ONLY man on earth that can hear GOD’s voice


73 posted on 11/10/2012 11:16:41 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian

Because you’re confusing the White Horse Prophecy with what was actually said in all those addresses over the years.

To know the difference is the key.

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.


74 posted on 11/10/2012 11:18:39 AM PST by Ripliancum (Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you. -Eph. 4:31)
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To: Colofornian

The White Horse Prophecy will be fulfilled and the United States will collapse within the next four years.


75 posted on 11/10/2012 11:19:36 AM PST by satan (Plumbing new depths of worthlessness on a daily basis.)
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To: Ripliancum; svcw; Colofornian

Rip you keep quoting ONE leader when we can quote DOZENS of others (including prophets) that say the opposite. Want quotes?

The WHP was big talk when I was at BYU (and Benson was prophet) and every LDS I know thought Mitt was the fulfillment of it. The masses believe it.

Although you may be right that it won’t be saved in Washington, since according to the LDS, the Mormon theocracy would rule from Independence, Missouri.

BTW, you still haven’t explained if it was ‘debunked’ why the LDS church still has the prophecy engraved on the wall at their Liberty Jail museum (that they built, own and run).


76 posted on 11/10/2012 11:26:30 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Tennessee Nana

THANK YOU! I’m gonna steal this for future use. ;)


77 posted on 11/10/2012 11:28:58 AM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Tennessee Nana
ETB was senile and bedridden the last few years of his life...

From Steve Benson:

Other Mormon leaders made the decisions and signed his name to documents...


"By 1993, my grandfather was on his last mental and physical legs, being in full decline on both counts.

He exhibited only brief moments of awareness of his surroundings and was unable to carry on meaningful conversations, including with members of his own family.

I personally witnessed his condition deteroriate to this state over the course of several years.

By 1993, he had had a suffered from series of significant health setbacks, including blood clots on the brain, a stroke and a heart attack, all of which had been downplayed to one degree or another by the Church.

My grandfather eventually died in May 1994, barely a year after the conference to which you refer.

By September 1993, even Apostles Oaks and Maxwell were personally (but only privately) confirming the reality of ETB's increasingly debilitated state.

In a visit that month with my wife, Mary Ann, and I in Maxwell's Church Administration Building office, Oaks admitted that my grandfather's health was declining steadily (a fact that we both, as well as our children, already knew from personal visits with him in the confines of his apartment overlooking Temple Square).

Oaks said the Quorum of the Twelve rotated in pairs each week to visit my grandfather at the apartment, with the purpose of only to check in on how he was doing, not to engage in adminstrative action or to discuss major issues, since my grandfather was incapable of doing any such thing.


Maxwell said that when Church members asked him how the prophet was doing, he would reply only that "he is not in pain."

Either Maxwell or Oaks (I would have to go back and check my notes from the visit) also told us that major administrative decisions were not being made, given the inability of my grandfather to be involved in the process.

I asked Oaks why he didn't come out and set the record straight on my grandfather's health, especially since the Church Public Relations Department, headed by Don LeFevre at the time, was issuing press releases significantly misrepresenting my grandfather's actual mental and physical condition.

Oaks responded by waving dismissively in the direction of the the Church Office Building (which we could see through the windows of Maxwell's office) and saying, "I don't know what goes on over there in the high rise."

I then asked Maxwell why he didn't speak up on the actual state of my grandfather's health.

Maxwell replied by saying he already had several responsibilities and "didn't need any more."

Oaks then urged me to deal with the issue of my grandfather's health through "back channels," rather than in the public square (a sure-fire remedy for deep-sixing the whole thing).

I chose not to follow that advice.

A few weeks later, during 1993 October Conference, I encountered Don LeFevre of the Church PR Department and asked him why he was releasing statements about the health of my grandfather that were clearly not true.

LeFevre told me, "All my statements have been approved by my superiors."

I responded, "Don, that doesn't make them true."

LeFevre simply replied, "Steve, this is a difficult job."

It is a matter of public record (thanks to the reporting of the Salt Lake Tribune) that--in direct contravention of established protocol for the transfer of power in the event that the Church president should die OR become incapacitated--Hinckely and Monson had the power of attorney over LDS corporate affairs shifted to them in the Church's incorporation documents a few years before my grandfather's death (see Talmadge's treatment of Church governance procedures in Articles of Faith).

Instead of having the First Presidency dissolved and an acting president installed to administer the affairs of the Church in a situation when the sitting president was unable to perform his duties, Hinckely and Monson had legal authority to run the Mormon empire transferred directly to them by the highly unusual method of employing my grandfather's autopen signature machine on Church incorporation documents (see an account of this episode in Quinn's Extensions of Power).

It's rotten, folks--to the core."

From ETB's grandson, Steve Benson

78 posted on 11/10/2012 11:42:51 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (We told you Mitt wouldn't win.)
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To: Colofornian
One of his favorite ‘signs’ that he liked to talk about was that a great Mormon leader would ALMOSTbe elected President of the United States, and this would be a major indication that the Last Days were imminent

Written like this I can believe it.

79 posted on 11/10/2012 11:49:25 AM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture tm)
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To: greyfoxx39

Oops...


80 posted on 11/10/2012 12:02:27 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: metmom

Satan is the god of this world, for now. He empowers his followers.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+13:38&version=KJV

Matthew 13:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


81 posted on 11/10/2012 12:06:03 PM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Colofornian

Yes, but it’s hard to inform someone who is mad.


82 posted on 11/10/2012 12:06:35 PM PST by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: steve86

Except to the Mormons whether they want to admit it or not Barak Obama is a Mormon...

In June 2008 and a couple of times after Stanley Ann Dunham, happy atheist, and the mother of Barak Hussein Obama AKA etc, was deaddunked AKA ncro baptism AKA baptism of the dead in a Mormon temple or 2 or 3...in proxy

This made the dead mother of then Democrat candidate for the office of president of the United States a MORMON...

Then the freshly minted or tinted or wet Mormon was temple married to her dead lover and the biological father of Barak Obama, thus eliminating his previously illegitimate status and making him ‘worthy’ for the priesthood of the Mormon male dominion...

After Stanley Ann Obama nee Dunham (due to her temple wedding) received all the possible Earthly lineup of endowments and anointings and 2nd anointings in Mormindoms secret sacred closet, she was then ready for the final cue and able now to bestow honors upon her bereft son Barak..

She was ‘sealed’ to bot h Barak and his sister thus making them both temple Mormons and passing on ALL the endowments and anointings and honors she had recieved...

As there is NO doctrine in all of Mormondom to reverse or cause the dead dunkee or the sealed family members to loose the effects of the temple rituals

Barak Hussein Obama was elected president in Nov 2008 as a temple Mormon

and will always remain one...

NOW

You have your Mormon in the White House...

Let the horse races begin...


83 posted on 11/10/2012 12:10:03 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: greyfoxx39

I had picked up the impression that they were putting on an additional 8,000 missionaries, did I get that wrong?


84 posted on 11/10/2012 12:12:02 PM PST by ansel12
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To: Ripliancum; Colofornian

Because you’re confusing the White Horse Prophecy with what was actually said in all those addresses over the years.

- - - - - -

Oh I understand apparently better than you, Rip.

Typical Mormon ploy, if you don’t agree you don’t understand the ‘higher’ doctrines of Mormonism. Wrong, we understand completely, and I remember discussing it at BYU and in my wards. The masses believe in the prophecy, but downplay it publicly just like they downplay the belief that the US will become a Mormon theocracy during the Millennium to outsiders.

I will give Rip this one thing. I believe Smith gave the prophecy about his own 1844 run for POTUS that originally it was a short term prophecy, and when that wasn’t fulfilled, rather than let the masses at the time believe that Smith gave a false prophecy the leadership began to speak of it as a future event. That doesn’t change that for the last 140+ years it has been taught and believed by Latter day saints and most LDS I know supported Mitt because they thought he was the fulfillment of it.

For the lurkers who want to decide for themselves and actually research it, here are some great, well documented historical pieces and quotes about the WHP....

These are from Mormon friendly pages (although the editor was threatened with excommunication for not supporting Mitt Romney)...

http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/whitehorseprophecy.htm

http://www.mormonthink.com/mittromney.htm

http://mormonthink.com/politics.htm

http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/whitehorse.htm

This is from a ministry who counters Mormonism, but is still extremely accurate and well sourced. Most professional historians familiar with Mormonism agree that this is a reliable source.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/whitehorseprophecy.htm


85 posted on 11/10/2012 12:12:46 PM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: greyfoxx39

Thanks GF

Ive read Steve’s info several times but when Ive posted his name here Ive been told he never tells the truth because he is an ‘apostate’

who would know best what was going on with ETB than his own close family ???


86 posted on 11/10/2012 12:14:15 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: ansel12

They lowered the age to 18 for the boys...

and 19 for the girls...

there was a reason or 2 ...

possible draft, keeping them busy and marriagable etc..


87 posted on 11/10/2012 12:16:31 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: reaganaut

youre most welcome..

I got it from elsewhere myself

:)


88 posted on 11/10/2012 12:18:01 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Well, that’s pretty interesting.


89 posted on 11/10/2012 12:21:07 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: ansel12; greyfoxx39

I had picked up the impression that they were putting on an additional 8,000 missionaries, did I get that wrong?

- - - - - -
At General Conference this last October (2012), the LDS church officially lowered the age for missionaries to 18 (from 19) for men and to 19 (from 21) for women. The number of additional missionaries varies but 8k isn’t unreasonable. There are several reasons for this...

First, probably expecting a Mitt win and to use it to further Mormonism.

Second, the number of missionaries has been steadily declining over the last decade

Third, Women are taught that it is better to get married than go on a mission (when I was LDS you only went on a mission to make you more ‘marriageable’ if you were a woman and it was basically an admission that at age 21 you were an old maid). This solves that problem.

Fourth, many LDS are chosing to go to state or secular schools rather than BYU and after a year or two ‘in the world’ are less likely to want to go on a mission and are more likely to leave.

Fifth, the rate of returned missionaries leaving is pretty high (about 50% for men). I think SLC expects that if they get them younger, they are less likely to ‘think’ on their mission.

Six, it is harder to leave once you have been through the LDS temple and a mission call is usually the first time you go through the Endowment, so by lowering the age the leadership expects less people to leave or go ‘inactive’.

Even the LDS leadership admits people are leaving in droves and while they do not release number of those leaving if you crunch the numbers they lose OFFICIALLY (resignation,excommunication and death) about 200,000 per year and that is not counting those who just leave and don’t take their names off church records (these people are still counted in the numbers until they are 110).

When I was in grad school we had a support group of ex-LDS and of the 2 dozen who showed up every week, I was the ONLY one who went through the name removal process and no one had been excommunicated. Extrapolating that out and even allowing for the small sample, the LDS activity (tithing paying and attending) is WAY down.

Also, someone told me recently that they are not excommunicating nearly as much as they used to or for the things they used to (homosexuality, and fornication and adultery) which also reinforces the fact that they are losing people.


90 posted on 11/10/2012 12:30:14 PM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Ripliancum
Those who love freedom, as was attested to by the change in FR over the last few months will ignore your tripe,

What change was made at FR, that suddenly switched it into a freedom loving site?

91 posted on 11/10/2012 12:30:34 PM PST by ansel12 (Todd Akin was NOT the tea party candidate, Sarah Steelman was, Brunner had tea party support also.)
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To: Ripliancum; reaganaut; All
Because you’re confusing the White Horse Prophecy with what was actually said in all those addresses over the years. To know the difference is the key.

Well, the Q here is: Are you engaging in historical parsing that the listeners at these General Conferences were not engaging in?

Did they think that these discussions were extensions of Smith's 'White Horse' prophecy, or, as you now claim, something altogether different?

Do you somehow know more, Rip, than then-BYU president Dr. Ernest Wilkinson?

“In my commencement address I gave the language and sources of the prophetic utterance made by the Prophet Joseph that the Constitution of the United States would hang by a single thread, but be saved by the elders of Israel. I hope you will read those sources so you will be well-informed as to this prophecy and be prepared to do your part in its fulfillment.” - Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, April 21, 1966, p. 7

What about Ezra Taft Benson's numerous references including one as recenlty published by the Lds church in 1988:

“Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time ‘this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’... [Then] the Elders of Israel [i.e., LDS leaders], widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.” - Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 1988, p. 619

Brigham Young clearly repeatedly taught clear elements of this "prophecy" as well:

“Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, ‘The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’ It will be so.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 15, July 4, 1854

“[W]hen the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the ‘Mormon’ Elders to save it from utter destruction.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 182, February 18, 1855

“How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 12, p. 204

“Our government, the best government in the world, is crumbling to pieces. Those who have it in their hands are the ones who are destroying it. How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 12, p. 204, April 8, 1868

*******************************

Rip, ALL: What, then is a way to "test" Rip's claim -- that the White Horse prophecy is somehow distinct from the string of similar references during Lds general conferences?

Well, let's start with the prophecy itself, found in a diary entry citing Smith himself: "You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed," the diary entry quotes Smith as saying. "It will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber." Not only will the Mormons save the Constitution, under the prediction, but the prophecy goes further, insinuating that Mormons will control the government. "Power will be given to the White Horse to rebuke the nations afar off, and you obey it, for the laws go forth from Zion," the prophecy says.

So, then, let's break it down? What are the "key" elements of the prophecy:
#1 The U.S. Constitution to be "almost destroyed."
#2 "It [the Constitution] will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber."
#3 The White Horse receives power to rebuke the nations
#4 The Law goes forth from "Zion" -- which Lds said is the Mormon church

BYU Studies (The Historians Corner) have also done us a "favor" in finding a similar Joseph Smith "prophecy" reference...cited mispellings & all:

“We shall build the Zion of the Lord in peace untill the servants of that Lord shall begin to lay the foundation of a great and high watch Tower and then shall they begin to say within themselves, what need hath my Lord of this tower seeing this is a time of peace &c. Then the Enemy shall come as a thief in the night and scatter the servants abroad. When the seed of these 12 Olive trees are scattered abroad they will wake up the Nations of the whole Earth. Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff up[on] which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction.” (The Historians Corner, BYU Studies, Vol. 19, No. 3, p. 391-392)

The key overlap parts there is that
#1 The constitution is on the "brink of ruin" and the "verge of destruction"
#2 [No reference this time to "hang" or "fiber"]
#3 The nations are indeed involved again -- to be awakened...
#4 Instead of a "White Horse" reference or "Zion" reference, "this people" [meaning Mormons] "will be the Staff up[on] which the Nation shall lean..."

In case any doubt that later Lds "prophets" reinforced certain interpretations, here's what to-be Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith said at a General Conference in 1950:
The statement has been made that the Prophet said the time would come when this Constitution would hang as by a thread, and this is true. There has been some confusion, however, as to just what he said following this. I think that Elder Orson Hyde has given us A CORRECT INTERPRETATION WHEREIN HE SAYS that the Prophet said the Constitution would be in danger. Said Orson Hyde: I believe he said something like this — that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he: ‘If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.’ I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it. (Journal of Discourses, 6:152.) Now I tell you it is time the people of the United States were waking up with the understanding that if they don’t save the Constitution from the dangers that threaten it, we will have a change of government.” - Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, April 1950, p. 159

So...of the General Conference references, how many of these elements are contain references to
...the U.S. Constitution,
...hanging by a fiber,
or "‘this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction…'" (Lds "prophet" Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1961, p. 70)
or "He also indicated the important part that this people should yet play in standing for the principles embodied in these sacred documents—the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.” (Benson, Conference Report, April 1948, p. 85)

92 posted on 11/10/2012 12:30:43 PM PST by Colofornian (Some say "we're not voting 4 'pastor-in-chief'" --as if "gods-in-embryo" were divine only on Sundays)
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To: greyfoxx39

My position stands. The so-called book of Mormon is false gospel, ie, fiction. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity or the Word of God.

Look up false prophets in KJV.

Must be a flaw (among many flaws) in my up-bringing.


93 posted on 11/10/2012 12:32:00 PM PST by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: Tennessee Nana; greyfoxx39

From this apostate...I knew and worked for Reed Benson (ETBs son) and one day saw him in his office crying. When I asked him what was wrong, he told me that his dad didn’t even know him anymore and this was right after the LDS leadership lied from the pulpit during General Conference about how well ETB was doing. When I saw Steve’s letter the first time I knew he was telling the truth because his uncle (still faithful) said the same thing to me about a year before.

And the LDS have to say all apostates are lying because they don’t want to deal with the fact we tell the truth.


94 posted on 11/10/2012 12:37:46 PM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Jim Robinson; greyfoxx39; Nana; aMorePerfectUnion; Godzilla; fishtank; bonfire; metmom; ...

Thank you JR for standing for the truth. Most of us understand that your endorsement/support (grudgingly I might add) of Romney, was NOT in any way support of Mormonism or its doctrines.

However, I think that some LDS on here think that it was and expected that they could return to proselytizing Mormonism without any Christians being allowed to counter it.

God Bless you, sir.


95 posted on 11/10/2012 12:54:16 PM PST by reaganaut (Kyrie eleison...Christe eleison...Kyrie eleison)
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To: Jim Robinson

Thank you Jim...

I have the highest respect for you and FR

God bless you and have a Happy Veterans Day..

Tennessee Nana


96 posted on 11/10/2012 1:14:32 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Jim Robinson

Correct. Joseph Smith was a con man who fooled a lot of people.

Not all of those people are bad of course, some are just misguided. I know, as I’m friends with some ex- and some current.

Obama is a pied-piper of evil, promoting it on a daily basis and destroying any moral fiber left in America, if he can.

This was obvious when I picked up a copy of one of his books in 2008 at a local bookstore.

To wit, he said his family rejected a “religion that consigned 4/5 of the world’s population to Hell” (paraphrased, maybe it was 3/4). Regardless, Obama rejects the uniqueness of the Gospel versus world religions and therefore is no more “christian” than a tree.

For he either does not comprehend the Gospel, or flat out rejects it. Indeed, this is reflected almost daily in his infanticide and gay agendas.

And for that reason and dozens of others, I was totally ABO.


97 posted on 11/10/2012 1:17:25 PM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: presently no screen name

“How many excuse will we hear about on how Obama won?”

Ha! I was told on another thread by a FReeper who’s OK with gay marriage and abortion that it was “religious zealots like me”.

ROTFLOL

Apparently he thinks that if the conservatives just become the Democratic party we can “win”. May as well be a member of the Politburo and the Communist Party.

Incredible.


98 posted on 11/10/2012 1:24:53 PM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Jim Robinson; Ripliancum; Colofornian; Elsie; svcw; Zakeet; Tennessee Nana; aMorePerfectUnion; ...
My position stands. The so-called book of Mormon is false gospel, ie, fiction. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity or the Word of God.
Look up false prophets in KJV.
Must be a flaw (among many flaws) in my up-bringing.

Thanks for the reply, Jim. God doesn't see it as a flaw, but as wisdom.

99 posted on 11/10/2012 1:41:01 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (We told you Mitt wouldn't win.)
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To: Colofornian

Romney is now part of history. The Mormon factor is irrelevant at this point. Obama is our president for the next four years. We have to accept it. I ran into a woman at the community pool this morning when I took my 3 yr old grandson for a class. We chatted about Hurricane Sandy and then she used the words ‘those Republicans’ in reference to to her own sister disagreeing with her on storm cleanup.

My problem is I’m surrounded by dems here in PA, not Mormons.


100 posted on 11/10/2012 1:46:33 PM PST by Dr. Scarpetta
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