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11 Reasons the Authority of Christianity Is Centered on St. Peter and Rome
stpeterslist ^ | December 19, 2012

Posted on 01/06/2013 3:56:49 PM PST by NYer

Bl. John Henry Newman said it best: “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” History paints an overwhelming picture of St. Peter’s apostolic ministry in Rome and this is confirmed by a multitude of different sources within the Early Church. Catholic Encyclopedia states, “In opposition to this distinct and unanimous testimony of early Christendom, some few Protestant historians have attempted in recent times to set aside the residence and death of Peter at Rome as legendary. These attempts have resulted in complete failure.” Protestantism as a whole seeks to divorce Christianity from history by rending Gospel message out of its historical context as captured by our Early Church Fathers. One such target of these heresies is to devalue St. Peter and to twist the authority of Rome into a historical mishap within Christianity. To wit, the belief has as its end the ultimate end of all Catholic and Protestant dialogue – who has authority in Christianity?

 

Why is it important to defend the tradition of St. Peter and Rome?
The importance of establishing St. Peter’s ministry in Rome may be boiled down to authority and more specifically the historic existence and continuance of the Office of Vicar held by St. Peter. To understand why St. Peter was important and what authority was given to him by Christ SPL has composed two lists – 10 Biblical Reasons Christ Founded the Papacy and 13 Reasons St. Peter Was the Prince of the Apostles.

The rest of the list is cited from the Catholic Encyclopedia on St. Peter and represents only a small fraction of the evidence set therein.

 

The Apostolic Primacy of St. Peter and Rome

It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom. As to the duration of his Apostolic activity in the Roman capital, the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter.

St. Peter’s residence and death in Rome are established beyond contention as historical facts by a series of distinct testimonies extending from the end of the first to the end of the second centuries, and issuing from several lands.

 

1. The Gospel of St. John

That the manner, and therefore the place of his death, must have been known in widely extended Christian circles at the end of the first century is clear from the remark introduced into the Gospel of St. John concerning Christ’s prophecy that Peter was bound to Him and would be led whither he would not — “And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God” (John 21:18-19, see above). Such a remark presupposes in the readers of the Fourth Gospel a knowledge of the death of Peter.

 

2. Salutations, from Babylon

St. Peter’s First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: “The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark” (5:13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Revelation 17:5; 18:10; “Oracula Sibyl.”, V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).

 

3. Gospel of St. Mark

From Bishop Papias of Hierapolis and Clement of Alexandria, who both appeal to the testimony of the old presbyters (i.e., the disciples of the Apostles), we learn that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome at the request of the Roman Christians, who desired a written memorial of the doctrine preached to them by St. Peter and his disciples (Eusebius, Church History II.15, 3.40, 6.14); this is confirmed by Irenaeus (Against Heresies 3.1). In connection with this information concerning the Gospel of St. Mark, Eusebius, relying perhaps on an earlier source, says that Peter described Rome figuratively as Babylon in his First Epistle.

 

4. Testimony of Pope St. Clement I

Another testimony concerning the martyrdom of Peter and Paul is supplied by Clement of Rome in his Epistle to the Corinthians (written about A.D. 95-97), wherein he says (chapter 5):

“Through zeal and cunning the greatest and most righteous supports [of the Church] have suffered persecution and been warred to death. Let us place before our eyes the good Apostles — St. Peter, who in consequence of unjust zeal, suffered not one or two, but numerous miseries, and, having thus given testimony (martyresas), has entered the merited place of glory”.

He then mentions Paul and a number of elect, who were assembled with the others and suffered martyrdom “among us” (en hemin, i.e., among the Romans, the meaning that the expression also bears in chapter 4). He is speaking undoubtedly, as the whole passage proves, of the Neronian persecution, and thus refers the martyrdom of Peter and Paul to that epoch.

 

5. Testimony of St. Ignatius of Antioch

In his letter written at the beginning of the second century (before 117), while being brought to Rome for martyrdom, the venerable Bishop Ignatius of Antioch endeavours by every means to restrain the Roman Christians from striving for his pardon, remarking: “I issue you no commands, like Peter and Paul: they were Apostles, while I am but a captive” (Epistle to the Romans 4). The meaning of this remark must be that the two Apostles laboured personally in Rome, and with Apostolic authority preached the Gospel there.

 

6. Taught in the Same Place in Italy

Bishop Dionysius of Corinth, in his letter to the Roman Church in the time of Pope Soter (165-74), says:

“You have therefore by your urgent exhortation bound close together the sowing of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth. For both planted the seed of the Gospel also in Corinth, and together instructed us, just as they likewise taught in the same place in Italy and at the same time suffered martyrdom” (in Eusebius, Church History II.25).

 

 

7. Rome: Founded by Sts. Peter and Paul

Irenaeus of Lyons, a native of Asia Minor and a disciple of Polycarp of Smyrna (a disciple of St. John), passed a considerable time in Rome shortly after the middle of the second century, and then proceeded to Lyons, where he became bishop in 177; he described the Roman Church as the most prominent and chief preserver of the Apostolic tradition, as “the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul” (Against Heresies 3.3; cf. 3.1). He thus makes use of the universally known and recognized fact of the Apostolic activity of Peter and Paul in Rome, to find therein a proof from tradition against the heretics.

 

8. St. Peter Announced the Word of God in Rome

In his “Hypotyposes” (Eusebius, Church History IV.14), Clement of Alexandria, teacher in the catechetical school of that city from about 190, says on the strength of the tradition of the presbyters: “After Peter had announced the Word of God in Rome and preached the Gospel in the spirit of God, the multitude of hearers requested Mark, who had long accompanied Peter on all his journeys, to write down what the Apostles had preached to them” (see above).

 

9. Rome: Where Authority is Ever Within Reach

Like Irenaeus, Tertullian appeals, in his writings against heretics, to the proof afforded by the Apostolic labours of Peter and Paul in Rome of the truth of ecclesiastical tradition. In De Præscriptione 36, he says:

“If thou art near Italy, thou hast Rome where authority is ever within reach. How fortunate is this Church for which the Apostles have poured out their whole teaching with their blood, where Peter has emulated the Passion of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John.”

In Scorpiace 15, he also speaks of Peter’s crucifixion. “The budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross”. As an illustration that it was immaterial with what water baptism is administered, he states in his book (On Baptism 5) that there is “no difference between that with which John baptized in the Jordan and that with which Peter baptized in the Tiber”; and against Marcion he appeals to the testimony of the Roman Christians, “to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood” (Against Marcion 4.5).

 

10. Come to the Vatican and See for Yourself

The Roman, Caius, who lived in Rome in the time of Pope Zephyrinus (198-217), wrote in his “Dialogue with Proclus” (in Eusebius, Church History II.25) directed against the Montanists: “But I can show the trophies of the Apostles. If you care to go to the Vatican or to the road to Ostia, thou shalt find the trophies of those who have founded this Church”.

By the trophies (tropaia) Eusebius understands the graves of the Apostles, but his view is opposed by modern investigators who believe that the place of execution is meant. For our purpose it is immaterial which opinion is correct, as the testimony retains its full value in either case. At any rate the place of execution and burial of both were close together; St. Peter, who was executed on the Vatican, received also his burial there. Eusebius also refers to “the inscription of the names of Peter and Paul, which have been preserved to the present day on the burial-places there” (i.e. at Rome).

 

11. Ancient Epigraphic Memorial

There thus existed in Rome an ancient epigraphic memorial commemorating the death of the Apostles. The obscure notice in the Muratorian Fragment (“Lucas optime theofile conprindit quia sub praesentia eius singula gerebantur sicuti et semote passionem petri evidenter declarat”, ed. Preuschen, Tübingen, 1910, p. 29) also presupposes an ancient definite tradition concerning Peter’s death in Rome.

The apocryphal Acts of St. Peter and the Acts of Sts. Peter and Paul likewise belong to the series of testimonies of the death of the two Apostles in Rome.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS: churchhistory
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To: metmom
>>How can you be sure? Were you there watching them 24/7?<<

To Catholics the RCC said so, they believe it, that settles it.

2,101 posted on 01/18/2013 7:49:40 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Ann Archy

The competing versions of bibles we have today have basically two points of origination:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNv-zzpIwBs&feature=youtube_gdata


2,102 posted on 01/18/2013 7:49:54 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: CynicalBear
Paul said to even check what he taught with scripture but the RCC says check with them before reading scripture.

Kind of right, but not 100%...Christ established a church for that very purpose, otherwise it would not be necessary at all. The very existance of 20,000 "Denomiations" of protestantism prove that fact. Christ established 1 church, Catholicism, and gave her the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, she did just fine for over 1,600 years until along came Martin and the gang to set things straight...no, do it this way....no do it that way....no this is truth, ....no that is truth.....no, being Catholic is too hard, we like to sleep in on Sunday,....no, going to confession is a pain and embarrasing, ....no, music is not allowed in church...., no, statues are icons and someone probably prays to them, ....no you have to dunk someone under water to baptize them,....no, it's just bread and wine, not the body and blood of Jesus (even though He said it was)...it goes on and on...when a group of dissidents leaves any organization, they come up with a zillion reasons to justify, in their minds, why they did so....sad

2,103 posted on 01/18/2013 7:53:12 PM PST by terycarl
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To: metmom
"How can you be sure?"

Why can't you extend your argument from absence rationalization about Mary's sex life to her assumption? Both have equal Scriptural support. Could it be that one fits your anti-Catholic shtick and one doesn't?

2,104 posted on 01/18/2013 7:55:39 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: terycarl
how many times are you going to repost that inane “bad Popes list”????

Just about every time something bad is posted about Protestants; why?

Does it bother you that CATHOLICism produced such men?

2,105 posted on 01/18/2013 7:58:04 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
I say something in jest and suddenly ir becomes dogma....

Nope; you said something in ERROR and you were corrected.

You do not LIKE to be corrected.

2,106 posted on 01/18/2013 8:00:28 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Natural Law

Honest question: If the pope must confess to a jesuit (the black pope) who does the black pope confess to?


2,107 posted on 01/18/2013 8:00:41 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: terycarl
Elijah foretold Jesus, he did not introduce Him.

I guess there may be others that DID NOT look up the verse; too, so here it is: 18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

2,108 posted on 01/18/2013 8:02:22 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl; CynicalBear
The very existance of 20,000 "Denomiations" of protestantism prove that fact

So which flavor of the 20+ some Catholic rites is the correct one?

It doesn't matter if there is 20 or 20,000. The fact that there are more than one shows that the Catholic church is in no different position than the *Protestants* they condemn.

2,109 posted on 01/18/2013 8:02:49 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: daniel1212; metmom
That is neither repentance or an apology.

You DO know with whom you are dealing; right?

2,110 posted on 01/18/2013 8:03:47 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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Comment #2,111 Removed by Moderator

To: terycarl
...only that church is in truth, without error, or possibllity of error....



2,112 posted on 01/18/2013 8:05:25 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
...only that church is in truth, without error, or possibllity of error....





Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]

Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.

Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy

Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy

Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]

Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]

Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]

Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes

2,113 posted on 01/18/2013 8:06:16 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
>>she did just fine for over 1,600 years<<

Did just fine you say? The RCC incorporated Pagan rituals, ceremonies, and symbols. Incorporated the “queen of heaven” from pagan religions. The RCC killed people they called “heretics” in some of the most horrendous ways. The RCC made up things like a sinless Mary, the assumption of Mary, and “Christianized” the many gods of the pagans and called them “Saints”. You call that “did just fine”? I think not so much.

Interesting that in your little diatribe you don’t mention anything of salvation through Christ alone but focus only on institutions of man’s making. I find that very telling. It’s typical of those who follow religions based on “new revelation” or “extra Biblical” teaching.

One thing Catholics always seem to forget is that now where has it been stated that I can tell that any of those other “denominations” don’t also have their error. It’s simply that none of those other “religions” tie salvation to anything other than Christ that I can tell. The RCC, Muslims, and Mormons on the other hand tie salvation to belonging to that organization.

2,114 posted on 01/18/2013 8:09:05 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Natural Law
Attributing motives to another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

2,115 posted on 01/18/2013 8:09:21 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: NYer

Honest question: If the pope must confess to a jesuit (the black pope) who does the black pope confess to?


2,116 posted on 01/18/2013 8:09:53 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: Natural Law
Both have equal Scriptural support.

No; Bob; they don't.

2,117 posted on 01/18/2013 8:10:26 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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Comment #2,118 Removed by Moderator

To: Syncro
"Still don't understand the concept of born again Christians?"

Catholics are "born from above" (gennatha anothen) at baptism. Catholics also experience regeneration, which matches the Evangelical definition (Titus 3:5) and conversion.

Peace be with you

2,119 posted on 01/18/2013 8:10:53 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law
>>Both have equal Scriptural support.<<

Really!!!!! Could you show where in scripture the assumption of Mary is tought?

2,120 posted on 01/18/2013 8:11:03 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: terycarl; CynicalBear; boatbums; smvoice; Syncro; Elsie; presently no screen name; daniel1212
Kind of right, but not 100%...Christ established a church for that very purpose, otherwise it would not be necessary at all. The very existance of 20,000 "Denomiations" of protestantism prove that fact. Christ established 1 church, Catholicism, and gave her the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, she did just fine for over 1,600 years until along came Martin and the gang to set things straight...no, do it this way....no do it that way....no this is truth, ....no that is truth.....no, being Catholic is too hard, we like to sleep in on Sunday,....no, going to confession is a pain and embarrasing, ....no, music is not allowed in church...., no, statues are icons and someone probably prays to them, ....no you have to dunk someone under water to baptize them,....no, it's just bread and wine, not the body and blood of Jesus (even though He said it was)...it goes on and on...when a group of dissidents leaves any organization, they come up with a zillion reasons to justify, in their minds, why they did so....sad

The one unifying factor is that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, not of works so that no one can boast.

Virtually all the rest falls into the *disputable matters* category, areas where differences of opinion are allowed that do not affect ones salvation.

Romans 14:1-23 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died.

16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

I know that the concept of disputable matters is foreign to the Catholic mind as absolute conformance to Catholic doctrine is demanded on pain of losing one's salvation, as attested to numerous decrees etc from popes and councils through the ages, but God allows for leeway in many areas.

2,121 posted on 01/18/2013 8:11:47 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Natural Law
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

2,122 posted on 01/18/2013 8:12:09 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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Comment #2,123 Removed by Moderator

To: terycarl

OOOhh. Getting personal are we?


2,124 posted on 01/18/2013 8:13:21 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Natural Law
Why can't you extend your argument from absence rationalization about Mary's sex life to her assumption? Both have equal Scriptural support.

You are correct that they have equal support from Scripture. *None* is after all equal to *none*.

2,125 posted on 01/18/2013 8:13:36 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Elsie

You’re priceless.....


2,126 posted on 01/18/2013 8:14:29 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Religion Moderator

I’ve been away - FR has a Religious Moderator? No kidding?


2,127 posted on 01/18/2013 8:15:04 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: Elsie
Mary was sinless... Mary is in Heaven now... Mary can deliver our prayers to Jesus... HE will do what his Mother (pbuh) will tell Him to do... Oh just SHUT up!

wow...other than the last statement, which I don't think he made, all are absolutely correct, and if he shut up, you'd never learn the truth.

2,128 posted on 01/18/2013 8:19:23 PM PST by terycarl
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To: CynicalBear
"Really!!!!!"

Really, neither have Scriptural support. The difference is that I accept Sacred Tradition.

2,129 posted on 01/18/2013 8:21:36 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: SteelTrap
I’ve been away - FR has a Religious Moderator? No kidding?

For years. Been out of the loop for a while, eh?

2,130 posted on 01/18/2013 8:23:00 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: SteelTrap

Jesuit cathechism:
q: If the Holy Scriptures command one thing and the pope another contrary to it”
A: The Holy scripture must be thrown aside

Ref: Ron Livesey
1998 Understanding the New World Order: World Government and World Religion

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-New-World-Order-Government/dp/0947852263

Page 104


2,131 posted on 01/18/2013 8:26:04 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: Natural Law; CynicalBear
Really, neither have Scriptural support. The difference is that I accept Sacred Tradition.

And you're certainly free to do so. No non-Catholic church is going to be torturing you, confiscating your property, or burning you at the stake for believing that.

However, since by your own admission, neither have any Scriptural support, anything any Catholic passes it off as truth, it will be challenged and shown to have NO Scriptural support.

So thanks for that admission and strengthening our position.

2,132 posted on 01/18/2013 8:26:15 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
I have heard Catholics argue that Mary could not have had sex with Joseph because she was sinless.

I have heard protestants say, and actually do, that remarriage after divorce was perfectly OK...

the only way a Catholic should have ever said that about Joseph and Mary would concern pre-marital sex ( the conception of Jesus)...of course even that doesn't seem to matter anymore.....

2,133 posted on 01/18/2013 8:28:31 PM PST by terycarl
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To: SteelTrap

Yes and for a long time. I’ve been an FR Religion Moderator for seven years.


2,134 posted on 01/18/2013 8:28:31 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: terycarl
He uses others to do His will, and He used the Catholic church to bring you Christianity and the Bible....say thanks, Catholics!!

God's Word is His Will. He used Moses, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and PAUL. So I say thanks to the Jews as they did HIS will as they heard and obey Him. That's what made them useable.

2,135 posted on 01/18/2013 8:32:26 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: terycarl
I have heard protestants say, and actually do, that remarriage after divorce was perfectly OK...

Red herring.

But if you want to go there, can you say *annulment* aka Catholic church sanctioned divorce?

2,136 posted on 01/18/2013 8:32:50 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
"So thanks for that admission and strengthening our position."

It doesn't strenthen your position. We have two unscriptural positions, one supported by 2,000 years of Sacred Tradition and one opposed by 2,000 years of Sacred Tradition. That is very telling.

2,137 posted on 01/18/2013 8:33:41 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: terycarl; metmom
>> I have heard protestants say, and actually do, that remarriage after divorce was perfectly OK...<<

They should have gotten an annulment. That would have made it OK.

2,138 posted on 01/18/2013 8:35:21 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: terycarl

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


2,139 posted on 01/18/2013 8:36:08 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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Comment #2,140 Removed by Moderator

To: metmom
It's not inane. It's very relevant. Too bad. They're your guys. You own them. ,p> they're only relevant once....if you duplicate your post, you are wasteing time, the Catholic church...and the world for that matter has had 266 Popes in her history, and in all that time, with all those men, none has ever erred in a matter of faith and morals, not a bad record I'd say.
2,141 posted on 01/18/2013 8:38:20 PM PST by terycarl
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To: metmom
"But if you want to go there, can you say *annulment* aka Catholic church sanctioned divorce?"

Where did you study Canon Law?

2,142 posted on 01/18/2013 8:39:28 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: CynicalBear

I noticed that too.


2,143 posted on 01/18/2013 8:39:35 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: metmom
In their dreams......

I have no idea of what that means

2,144 posted on 01/18/2013 8:41:28 PM PST by terycarl
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To: Natural Law
>>The difference is that I accept Sacred Tradition.<<

When it’s contrary to what scripture teaches there is no “Sacred Tradition”. It’s incorporating pagan rituals, practices, and symbols. The RCC calling them "Christianized" notwithstanding.

2,145 posted on 01/18/2013 8:41:45 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Syncro
"You can NOT be born again from baptism unless other factors are present."

Please don't presume to tell me what I do and do not understand. As I pointed out in my posting Catholics are born "from above" and experience regeneration and conversion.

Peace be with you

2,146 posted on 01/18/2013 8:45:06 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: terycarl; metmom
>>none has ever erred in a matter of faith and morals<<

Who told you that?

2,147 posted on 01/18/2013 8:45:26 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: terycarl

It means that Catholics only wish it was the *true* denomination or *true* church.

the Biblical church is the body of Christ, comprised of all true believers in Him, no matter what local assembly or denomination they choose to affiliate with or attend for worship.

The church by Scriptural definition is an organism, not an organization.


2,148 posted on 01/18/2013 8:47:48 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear
"When it’s contrary to what scripture teaches there is no “Sacred Tradition”."

Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition cannot contradict one another. When you perceive that they do it is your interpretation or perception of one or both that is in error.

Peace be with you

2,149 posted on 01/18/2013 8:47:57 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: terycarl; Natural Law

Honest question: If the pope must confess to a jesuit (the black pope) who does the black pope confess to?


2,150 posted on 01/18/2013 8:48:39 PM PST by SteelTrap
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