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11 Reasons the Authority of Christianity Is Centered on St. Peter and Rome
stpeterslist ^ | December 19, 2012

Posted on 01/06/2013 3:56:49 PM PST by NYer

Bl. John Henry Newman said it best: “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” History paints an overwhelming picture of St. Peter’s apostolic ministry in Rome and this is confirmed by a multitude of different sources within the Early Church. Catholic Encyclopedia states, “In opposition to this distinct and unanimous testimony of early Christendom, some few Protestant historians have attempted in recent times to set aside the residence and death of Peter at Rome as legendary. These attempts have resulted in complete failure.” Protestantism as a whole seeks to divorce Christianity from history by rending Gospel message out of its historical context as captured by our Early Church Fathers. One such target of these heresies is to devalue St. Peter and to twist the authority of Rome into a historical mishap within Christianity. To wit, the belief has as its end the ultimate end of all Catholic and Protestant dialogue – who has authority in Christianity?

 

Why is it important to defend the tradition of St. Peter and Rome?
The importance of establishing St. Peter’s ministry in Rome may be boiled down to authority and more specifically the historic existence and continuance of the Office of Vicar held by St. Peter. To understand why St. Peter was important and what authority was given to him by Christ SPL has composed two lists – 10 Biblical Reasons Christ Founded the Papacy and 13 Reasons St. Peter Was the Prince of the Apostles.

The rest of the list is cited from the Catholic Encyclopedia on St. Peter and represents only a small fraction of the evidence set therein.

 

The Apostolic Primacy of St. Peter and Rome

It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom. As to the duration of his Apostolic activity in the Roman capital, the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter.

St. Peter’s residence and death in Rome are established beyond contention as historical facts by a series of distinct testimonies extending from the end of the first to the end of the second centuries, and issuing from several lands.

 

1. The Gospel of St. John

That the manner, and therefore the place of his death, must have been known in widely extended Christian circles at the end of the first century is clear from the remark introduced into the Gospel of St. John concerning Christ’s prophecy that Peter was bound to Him and would be led whither he would not — “And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God” (John 21:18-19, see above). Such a remark presupposes in the readers of the Fourth Gospel a knowledge of the death of Peter.

 

2. Salutations, from Babylon

St. Peter’s First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: “The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark” (5:13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Revelation 17:5; 18:10; “Oracula Sibyl.”, V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).

 

3. Gospel of St. Mark

From Bishop Papias of Hierapolis and Clement of Alexandria, who both appeal to the testimony of the old presbyters (i.e., the disciples of the Apostles), we learn that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome at the request of the Roman Christians, who desired a written memorial of the doctrine preached to them by St. Peter and his disciples (Eusebius, Church History II.15, 3.40, 6.14); this is confirmed by Irenaeus (Against Heresies 3.1). In connection with this information concerning the Gospel of St. Mark, Eusebius, relying perhaps on an earlier source, says that Peter described Rome figuratively as Babylon in his First Epistle.

 

4. Testimony of Pope St. Clement I

Another testimony concerning the martyrdom of Peter and Paul is supplied by Clement of Rome in his Epistle to the Corinthians (written about A.D. 95-97), wherein he says (chapter 5):

“Through zeal and cunning the greatest and most righteous supports [of the Church] have suffered persecution and been warred to death. Let us place before our eyes the good Apostles — St. Peter, who in consequence of unjust zeal, suffered not one or two, but numerous miseries, and, having thus given testimony (martyresas), has entered the merited place of glory”.

He then mentions Paul and a number of elect, who were assembled with the others and suffered martyrdom “among us” (en hemin, i.e., among the Romans, the meaning that the expression also bears in chapter 4). He is speaking undoubtedly, as the whole passage proves, of the Neronian persecution, and thus refers the martyrdom of Peter and Paul to that epoch.

 

5. Testimony of St. Ignatius of Antioch

In his letter written at the beginning of the second century (before 117), while being brought to Rome for martyrdom, the venerable Bishop Ignatius of Antioch endeavours by every means to restrain the Roman Christians from striving for his pardon, remarking: “I issue you no commands, like Peter and Paul: they were Apostles, while I am but a captive” (Epistle to the Romans 4). The meaning of this remark must be that the two Apostles laboured personally in Rome, and with Apostolic authority preached the Gospel there.

 

6. Taught in the Same Place in Italy

Bishop Dionysius of Corinth, in his letter to the Roman Church in the time of Pope Soter (165-74), says:

“You have therefore by your urgent exhortation bound close together the sowing of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth. For both planted the seed of the Gospel also in Corinth, and together instructed us, just as they likewise taught in the same place in Italy and at the same time suffered martyrdom” (in Eusebius, Church History II.25).

 

 

7. Rome: Founded by Sts. Peter and Paul

Irenaeus of Lyons, a native of Asia Minor and a disciple of Polycarp of Smyrna (a disciple of St. John), passed a considerable time in Rome shortly after the middle of the second century, and then proceeded to Lyons, where he became bishop in 177; he described the Roman Church as the most prominent and chief preserver of the Apostolic tradition, as “the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul” (Against Heresies 3.3; cf. 3.1). He thus makes use of the universally known and recognized fact of the Apostolic activity of Peter and Paul in Rome, to find therein a proof from tradition against the heretics.

 

8. St. Peter Announced the Word of God in Rome

In his “Hypotyposes” (Eusebius, Church History IV.14), Clement of Alexandria, teacher in the catechetical school of that city from about 190, says on the strength of the tradition of the presbyters: “After Peter had announced the Word of God in Rome and preached the Gospel in the spirit of God, the multitude of hearers requested Mark, who had long accompanied Peter on all his journeys, to write down what the Apostles had preached to them” (see above).

 

9. Rome: Where Authority is Ever Within Reach

Like Irenaeus, Tertullian appeals, in his writings against heretics, to the proof afforded by the Apostolic labours of Peter and Paul in Rome of the truth of ecclesiastical tradition. In De Præscriptione 36, he says:

“If thou art near Italy, thou hast Rome where authority is ever within reach. How fortunate is this Church for which the Apostles have poured out their whole teaching with their blood, where Peter has emulated the Passion of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John.”

In Scorpiace 15, he also speaks of Peter’s crucifixion. “The budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross”. As an illustration that it was immaterial with what water baptism is administered, he states in his book (On Baptism 5) that there is “no difference between that with which John baptized in the Jordan and that with which Peter baptized in the Tiber”; and against Marcion he appeals to the testimony of the Roman Christians, “to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood” (Against Marcion 4.5).

 

10. Come to the Vatican and See for Yourself

The Roman, Caius, who lived in Rome in the time of Pope Zephyrinus (198-217), wrote in his “Dialogue with Proclus” (in Eusebius, Church History II.25) directed against the Montanists: “But I can show the trophies of the Apostles. If you care to go to the Vatican or to the road to Ostia, thou shalt find the trophies of those who have founded this Church”.

By the trophies (tropaia) Eusebius understands the graves of the Apostles, but his view is opposed by modern investigators who believe that the place of execution is meant. For our purpose it is immaterial which opinion is correct, as the testimony retains its full value in either case. At any rate the place of execution and burial of both were close together; St. Peter, who was executed on the Vatican, received also his burial there. Eusebius also refers to “the inscription of the names of Peter and Paul, which have been preserved to the present day on the burial-places there” (i.e. at Rome).

 

11. Ancient Epigraphic Memorial

There thus existed in Rome an ancient epigraphic memorial commemorating the death of the Apostles. The obscure notice in the Muratorian Fragment (“Lucas optime theofile conprindit quia sub praesentia eius singula gerebantur sicuti et semote passionem petri evidenter declarat”, ed. Preuschen, Tübingen, 1910, p. 29) also presupposes an ancient definite tradition concerning Peter’s death in Rome.

The apocryphal Acts of St. Peter and the Acts of Sts. Peter and Paul likewise belong to the series of testimonies of the death of the two Apostles in Rome.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS: churchhistory
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To: CynicalBear
"Who told you that?"

Jesus

2,151 posted on 01/18/2013 8:49:21 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Syncro
how many times are you going to repost that inane "Catholic church brought you the Bible and is the only true church AND that God chose the Catholic church to carry His message to the world???"

Yeah, but that is both true AND meaningful

2,152 posted on 01/18/2013 8:49:43 PM PST by terycarl
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To: CynicalBear

Well, it’s certainly tradition and in the RCC mind it may be sacred, but it is not by any means true because it’s contradicted by the clear teaching of Scripture.

So the appeal to *Sacred Tradition* may make people feel all warm and fuzzy, but is nothing of substance.


2,153 posted on 01/18/2013 8:50:48 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Natural Law
>>Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition cannot contradict one another.<<

Now that there is funny I don’t care who ya are.

2,154 posted on 01/18/2013 8:52:46 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: SteelTrap
"If the pope must confess to a jesuit (the black pope) who does the black pope confess to?"

Any ordained priest can hear a confession.

2,155 posted on 01/18/2013 8:53:00 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: metmom
Oh, Elsie, about that *inane* list of bad popes. Perhaps we need to add all those priests their church has been having trouble with as well.

don't go there because the number of "troublesome" Protestant ministers, school teachers, scout leaders et al...greatly outnumber the number of Catholic clergy...not even close, all catagories....

2,156 posted on 01/18/2013 8:55:01 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl; Elsie
266 Popes in her history, and in all that time, with all those men, none has ever erred in a matter of faith and morals

It's moral to have sex outside of marriage if you are a pope?

It's moral to love to hear the screams of pain from Christians being tortured?

It's moral for a pope to have sex with another man's wife and murder people?

It's moral to get a nun preganent and have her get an abortion if you are a pope?

It's ok for a pope to assure Catholics that it is ok to pray to Mary? And even do it as an example?

It's ok for a pope to tell Catholics that Mary can bring them salvation? And that salvation is of Mary?

I'm sure there is a trick definition of "faith and moral" that makes all of that OK.

2,157 posted on 01/18/2013 8:55:36 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: CynicalBear

Jesus told you that none of the Popes ever erred in a matter of faith and morals? Seriously? I suppose you have the gold leafed plates to prove that or something?


2,158 posted on 01/18/2013 8:56:22 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom
Oh, Elsie, about that *inane* list of bad popes. Perhaps we need to add all those priests their church has been having trouble with as well.

don't go there because the number of "troublesome" Protestant ministers, school teachers, scout leaders et al...greatly outnumber the number of Catholic clergy...not even close, all catagories....

2,159 posted on 01/18/2013 8:56:59 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl; Syncro
Yeah, but that is both true AND meaningful

It is not true and it is meaningless.

The messenger is irrelevant. It's the message that counts. Salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Acts 16:29-31 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:9-13 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

2,160 posted on 01/18/2013 8:57:20 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Natural Law

Ty for the reply. Let me get this straight - the pope can ONLY confess to the supreme general of the jesuits but the supreme general of the jesuits can confess to anyone who is ordained?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolfo_Nicol%C3%A1s


2,161 posted on 01/18/2013 8:57:49 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: Natural Law

I apologize for the personal nature of my post to you.

I will have it removed by the mods and re-write it so that is not of a personal nature.


2,162 posted on 01/18/2013 8:59:45 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: Syncro
The Church doesn't teach that popes aren't impeccable, but infallible when they invoke their authority in teaching regarding faith and morals.

Yes, popes are sinnners. OTOH, the first 30 or so were martyred for the faith. And many others were/are saints, as well.

2,163 posted on 01/18/2013 8:59:54 PM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: metmom
>> So the appeal to *Sacred Tradition* may make people feel all warm and fuzzy, but is nothing of substance.<<

And it’s “Sacred Tradition” per the RCC who after all is infallible when making decision of “faith and morals”. It had to be moral to kill all those “heretics” in such horrendous ways. That was moral per the RCC evidently.

2,164 posted on 01/18/2013 9:00:24 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: terycarl
don't go there because the number of "troublesome" Protestant ministers, school teachers, scout leaders et al...greatly outnumber the number of Catholic clergy...not even close, all catagories....

Compare each individual category. It's easy to make Catholic clergy look less bad when compared to the whole rest of the world, but it's intellectually dishonest to not compare like categories.

The biggest abomination of the whole Catholic clergy fiasco is that those are the men who are allegedly representing Christ to their parishioners.

2,165 posted on 01/18/2013 9:02:58 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: smvoice; Syncro
My very simple question is how could Peter “make” each and every Christian a holy and royal priest when he loosed himself and the 11 from the so-called “great commission” and gave to Paul the right hand of fellowship and agreed to keep the 12’s Kingdom mission to the Jews while Paul went to the Gentiles. (Galatians, Chapter 2). Seems the RCC should have PAUL as their first “pope”, if they are following Scripture...but I digress.

I don't believe Peter was "making" every Christian a priest in the same sense that the Jewish priesthood operated. Rather, he as well as Paul spoke about the new type of temple (that not made with hands) and of which all Christians are living stones that make up this body of Christ and the sacrifices we all offer are those of ourselves - the sacrifice of praise and of our own bodies - offered to God for His use. This section from Barnes' Notes on the Bible, explains it well, I think:

Ye also, as lively stones - Greek, "living stones." The word should have been so rendered. The word lively with us now has a different meaning from living, and denotes "active, quick, sprightly." The Greek word is the same as that used in the previous verse, and rendered living. The meaning is, that the materials of which the temple here referred to was composed, were living materials throughout. The foundation is a living foundation, and all the superstructure is compassed of living materials. The purpose of the apostle here is to compare the church to a beautiful temple - such as the temple in Jerusalem, and to show that it is complete in all its parts, as that was. It has within itself what corresponds with everything that was valuable in that. It is a beautiful structure like that; and as in that there was a priesthood, and there were real and acceptable sacrifices offered, so it is in the Christian church.

The Jews prided themselves much on their temple. It was a most costly and splendid edifice. It was the place where God was worshipped, and where he was supposed to dwell. It had an imposing service, and there was acceptable worship rendered there. As a new dispensation was introduced; as the tendency of the Christian system was to draw off the worshippers from that temple, and to teach them that God could be worshipped as acceptably elsewhere as at Jerusalem, John 4:21-23 as Christianity did not inculcate the necessity of rearing splendid temples for the worship of God; and as in fact the temple at Jerusalem was about to be destroyed forever, it was important to show that in the Christian church there might be found all that was truly beautiful and valuable in the temple at Jerusalem; that it had what corresponded to what was in fact most precious there, and that there was still a most magnificent and beautiful temple on the earth.

Hence, the sacred writers labor to show that all was found in the church that had made the temple at Jerusalem so glorious, and that the great design contemplated by the erection of that splendid edifice - the maintenance of the worship of God - was now accomplished in a more glorious manner than even in the services of that house. For there was a temple, made up of living materials, which was still the special dwelling-place of God on the earth. In that I temple there was a holy priesthood - for every Christian was a priest. In that temple there were sacrifices offered, as acceptable to God as in the former - for they were spiritual sacrifices, offered continually. These thoughts were often dwelt upon by the apostle Paul, and are here illustrated by Peter, evidently with the same design, to impart consolation to those who had never been permitted to worship at the temple in Jerusalem, and to comfort those Jews, now converted to Christianity, who saw that that splendid and glorious edifice was about to be destroyed. The special abode of God on the earth was now removed from that temple to the Christian church. The first aspect in which this is illustrated here is, that the temple of God was made up of "living stones;" that is, that the materials were not inanimate stones but endued with life, and so much more valuable than those employed in the temple at Jerusalem, as the soul is more precious than any materials of stone. There were living beings which composed that temple, constituting a more beautiful structure, and a more appropriate dwelling-place for God, than any edifice could be made of stone, however costly or valuable.

A spiritual house - A spiritual temple, not made of perishable materials, like that at Jerusalem net composed of matter, as that was, but made up of redeemed souls - a temple more appropriate to be the residence of one who is a pure spirit. Compare the Ephesians 2:19-22 notes, and 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 notes.

An holy priesthood - In the temple at Jerusalem, the priesthood appointed to minister there, and to offer sacrifices, constituted an essential part of the arrangement. It was important, therefore, to show that this was not overlooked in the spiritual temple that God was raising. Accordingly, the apostle says that this is amply provided for, by constituting "the whole body of Christians" to be in fact a priesthood. Everyone is engaged in offering acceptable sacrifice to God. The business is not entrusted to a particular class to be known as priests; there is not a particular portion to whom the name is to be especially given; but every Christian is in fact a priest, and is engaged in offering an acceptable sacrifice to God. See Romans 1:6; "And hath made us: kings and priests unto God." The Great High Priest in this service is the Lord Jesus Christ, (see the Epistle to the Hebrews, passim) but besides him there is no one who sustains this office, except as it is borne by all the Christian members.

There are ministers, elders, pastors, evangelists in the church; but there is no one who is a priest, except in the general sense that all are priests - because the great sacrifice has been offered, and there is no expiation now to be made. The name priest, therefore should never be conferred on a minister of the gospel. It is never so given in the New Testament, and there was a reason why it should not be. The proper idea of a priest is one who offers sacrifice; but the ministers of the New Testament have no sacrifices to offer - the one great and perfect oblation for the sins of the world having been made by the Redeemer on the cross. To him, and him alone, under the New Testament dispensation, should the name priest be given, as it is uniformly in the New Testament, except in the general sense in which it is given to all Christians. In the Roman Catholic communion it is consistent to give the name "priest" to a minister of the gospel, but it is wrong to do it.

It is consistent, because they claim that a true sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ is offered in the mass. It is wrong, because that doctrine is wholly contrary to the New Testament, and is derogatory to the one perfect Oblation which has been once made for the sins of the world, and in conferring upon just one class of people a degree of importance and of power to which they have no claim, and which is so liable to abuse. But in a Protestant church it is neither consistent nor right to give the name "priest" to a minister of religion. The only sense in which the term can now be used in the Christian church is a sense in which it is applicable to all Christians alike - that they "offer the sacrifice of prayer and praise."

To offer up spiritual sacrifices - Not bloody offerings, the blood of lambs and bullocks, but those which are the offerings of the heart - the sacrifices of prayer and praise. Since there is a priest, there is also involved the notion of a sacrifice; but that which is offered is such as all Christians offer to God, proceeding from the heart, and breathed forth from the lips, and in a holy life. It is called sacrifice, not because it makes an explation for sin, but because it is of the nature of worship. Compare the notes at Hebrews 13:15; Hebrews 10:14.

Acceptable to God by Jesus Christ - Compare the notes at Romans 12:1. Through the merits of the great sacrifice made by the Redeemer on the cross. Our prayers and praises are in themselves so imperfect, and proceed from such polluted lips and hearts, that they can be acceptable only through him as our intercessor before the throne of God. Compare the notes at Hebrews 9:24-25; Hebrews 10:19-22.

2,166 posted on 01/18/2013 9:05:19 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
>>but infallible when they invoke their authority in teaching regarding faith and morals.<<

Like it or not when someone is in a leadership position what they do IS teaching “regarding faith and morals”.

2,167 posted on 01/18/2013 9:05:48 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Natural Law

It appears that you don’t understand born again even though you can write it in Greek.

No one can be born again from baptism unless other factors are present.

If one has their infant baptized, then tells the child when 12 or so that they have eternal life (they are born again), that will lead them on the path to hell.

Catholics need to understand the importance of a personal relationship with Jesus.

It’s very simple to pray a prayer and become born again, and it is NECESSARY to do in order to be saved, even if one is baptized as an infant


2,168 posted on 01/18/2013 9:11:52 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: Syncro
"I apologize for the personal nature of my post to you."

An apology is not necessary. I understand the passions these issues stir in all of us. I did not take it personally.

For the record I am not angered or irritated by error or differences in opinion or interpretation. Sharp elbows are the norm. What I do not tolerate is attempts to deceive because I know who the Father of Lies is.

Peace be with you

2,169 posted on 01/18/2013 9:12:14 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

I’m getting reacquainted with scriptures so this topic truly intrigues me. I remind myself my believing brethren on the “other side” are not wrong. They are simply yet to be delivered.

Man has but one Saviour. Jesus Christ. We don’t need a middle man to talk to him.


2,170 posted on 01/18/2013 9:12:55 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: Syncro
He used the Catholic church to bring you Christianity No he didn't. Christianity was brought to me DIRECTLY from Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

now please....get real...you didn't learn of Christianity by a direct revelation from God....you were raised in a Christian home, by Christian parents who learned Christianity from a pastor or priest or whatever........but all that information came through the Catholic church....there was no one else in the world to bring it to you.

2,171 posted on 01/18/2013 9:13:27 PM PST by terycarl
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To: Natural Law

LOL funny!


2,172 posted on 01/18/2013 9:14:31 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: terycarl

In your dreams.


2,173 posted on 01/18/2013 9:15:13 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: terycarl
don't go there because the number of "troublesome" Protestant ministers, school teachers, scout leaders et al...greatly outnumber the number of Catholic clergy...not even close, all catagories....

Compare each individual category. It's easy to make Catholic clergy look less bad when compared to the whole rest of the world, but it's intellectually dishonest to not compare like categories.

The biggest abomination of the whole Catholic clergy fiasco is that those are the men who are allegedly representing Christ to their parishioners and that they're still permitted to hear confessions, participate in mass, provide legitimate sacraments, etc. as if none of that happened or is important, or heinous sin, as it is.

How reprehensible that they should continue in a priestly role supposedly representing the people to God and representing God to the people.

God doesn't think very highly of those who take His name in vain.

1 Samuel 2:22-25 22 Now Eli was very old, and he kept hearing all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who were serving at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 23 And he said to them, “Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all these people. 24 No, my sons; it is no good report that I hear the people of the Lord spreading abroad.

25 If someone sins against a man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the Lord to put them to death.

1 Samuel 3:11-14 11 Then the Lord said to Samuel, “Behold, I am about to do a thing in Israel at which the two ears of everyone who hears it will tingle. 12 On that day I will fulfill against Eli all that I have spoken concerning his house, from beginning to end. 13 And I declare to him that I am about to punish his house forever, for the iniquity that he knew, because his sons were blaspheming God, and he did not restrain them. 14 Therefore I swear to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”

And that was for sin of laying with women, not homosexual pedophilia. How a Catholic priest whose hands have molested little boys in sin that is an abomination to God can lift them up and consecrate the eucharist as if those hands were pure and undefiled and then serve that same host to his parishioners, is beyond me.

I can't help but wonder what the reaction would be if those parishioners knew what those hands had been doing the week before.

And all we get in regard to it is *Nobody is perfect* and *Others do it too*.

It makes me want to lose my lunch.

2,174 posted on 01/18/2013 9:15:42 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: SteelTrap
"Let me get this straight...."

I'm not sure where you got this. The Pope's confession can be heard by any ordained priest or bishop.

2,175 posted on 01/18/2013 9:16:09 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Syncro
You posted that as if they were my words. I am a Christian, NOT a Catholic! Those were your words, not mine. **only Catholics existed as Christians then** Be more careful with what you attribute to me. Christian posters, don't be decieved by this leftist tactic

I have no idea as to what this post means!!!

2,176 posted on 01/18/2013 9:17:21 PM PST by terycarl
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
And many others were/are saints, as well.

Well that is nice.

So then you have no problem with unrepentant popes doing all those terrible things?

Just because "faith and morals" doesn't mean that popes have to be moral?

Oh and btw, all born again Christians are saints.

There are many scriptures explaining that, and none that speak of a particular order of people that are saints to be venerated above the rest.

If I'm wrong, please show me the scriptures.

2,177 posted on 01/18/2013 9:21:40 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: Syncro
"It's moral...."

Of course it is not moral, but Popes, like all humans, are not impeccable. But like treasure in earthen vessels, the Pope's proclamations on issues of morals and faith are guided by the promised Paraclete.

Peace be with you

2,178 posted on 01/18/2013 9:22:17 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law

Cool - ty. Is it still possible for people to pay for their way out of sin? IOW is the practice of “indulgences” true today?


2,179 posted on 01/18/2013 9:23:20 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: metmom
in the year 256...if you were a Christian and not a Catholic, what were you??? Saved.

good luck with that...without the church you wouldn't know who Jesus was, you wouldn't understand His comands, you would be totally ignorant of what Christianity was......

from who, if not the Catholic church, would you have learned anything..........there was no one else professing the message.....no one.

2,180 posted on 01/18/2013 9:28:38 PM PST by terycarl
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To: SteelTrap
"Is it still possible for people to pay for their way out of sin?"

It never was. Some abuses did take place, but those were contrary to Church teaching. One thing that is often misunderstood is the concept of restitution and corporeal acts of mercy as penance. Too often these have been mischaracterized as "buying your way into heaven" by the Reformation.

Peace be with you

2,181 posted on 01/18/2013 9:30:37 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law
Of course it is not moral, but Popes, like all humans, are not impeccable. But like treasure in earthen vessels, the Pope's proclamations on issues of morals and faith are guided by the promised Paraclete.

So the Holy Spirit is not grieved or quenched by the sin in their lives?

Interesting.

That means all the rest of us are all right then, too.

So why does it rankle Catholics that we are sure of our salvation, again?

2,182 posted on 01/18/2013 9:32:45 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Natural Law
"I apologize for the personal nature of my post to you."

An apology is not necessary.

Although I apologized to you, my apology was also directed at the rules for this forum.

So it was necessary as I take responsibility for my actions.

I did not attempt to deceive you.

In fact, I try not to post to others with out of context quotes that change the meaning of what that poster was actually saying.

Although I occasionally do it back to those that use that tactic, just to even things out and as an attempt to keep the dialogue meaningful and honest.

: > )

2,183 posted on 01/18/2013 9:33:17 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: Syncro
the Catholic church...only that church is in truth, without error, or possibllity of error.... So it was not an error for Popes to cut off fingers, have sex with nuns, have a pope the son of a pope, loving the screams of those being tortured? Yea, no error there. No possibility of error there. Those and many other ERRORS are actually the reasons the LDS are able to harvest so many confused souls from Catholicism. Catholic church, be ashamed!!!

you mentioned a few bad people in the oldest organization in the history of the world.....you mentioned no errors on the part of the church in matters of faith or morals....what's your point....there have been BAD people in the church.......and Now there is a place where that fits, not posted to a poster for not making an error.

2,184 posted on 01/18/2013 9:34:58 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl
good luck with that...without the church Holy Spirit you wouldn't know who Jesus was, you wouldn't understand His comands, you would be totally ignorant of what Christianity was......

Fixed it for ya.

God doesn't need the Catholic church. Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit to do that job.

2,185 posted on 01/18/2013 9:34:58 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Syncro
"I did not attempt to deceive you."

I know and appreciate that. Thank you

2,186 posted on 01/18/2013 9:39:31 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Syncro
"I did not attempt to deceive you."

I know and appreciate that. Thank you

2,187 posted on 01/18/2013 9:39:53 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: terycarl

I think the real question is - what if the leaders of the catholic church are not really Christian? If they are apostate and servants of satan? How would we even know? The Bible warns us of false prophets.

I’m not talking about your local people, The guys they report to 3 levels up, that is who I’m worried about.

This is a question being asked in protestant circles today. Mainly due to the push for denominational alignment via the “One Church” movement that is basically a recognition of some pope guy as the world spokesman for Christians. We non-papist are not on board with that. Not even a little.


2,188 posted on 01/18/2013 9:44:52 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: SteelTrap
"If they are apostate and servants of satan?

"By their fruit you will recognize them."- Matthew 7:16

2,189 posted on 01/18/2013 9:49:11 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law; daniel1212
More bibliolatry. The Church accepts the author of Scripture and the Sacred Tradition as the authority (note the word root) The Cardinal Manning citation is EXACTLY like the True Spouse of Christ citation above, partial, out of context, intended to mislead, and something that has been hashed out in this forum many times in the past. Do you all share some tickler file that triggers the reposting of the same old garbage when enough time has passed for the dust to settle?I know you fancy yourself quite the scholar, but this kind of sloppy or intentionally deceptive work would not get a passing grade in any class I have taken or taught. Let's go to instant replay and see what Cardinal manning actually said. Thew BOLD is the parts you left out. It paints a completely different picture from you you are implying.

I'll take the scholarly work of Daniel1212 over the repetitive fluff and propaganda that the children of Rome constantly intone. I'm sure he, as well as myself, couldn't care less what "grade" you might award to our efforts.

I read your "full" context of the Manning quote, and its not saying anything different than what Daniel quoted it as saying. It boiled down to the Catholic Church presuming it alone IS the voice of God. If holding to the Divinely-inspired Scriptures as THE authority ordained by God is "Bibliolatry", then what your church demands is Churchiolatry. I'll take sola Scriptura over sola Ecclesia ANY day! If even Jesus said, "It is written...", to dispute against Satan, rather than, "I say..." or, "The church says..", then I will follow HIS example. You are certainly free to follow whatever idols you want, just please refrain yourself from accusing Christians, that see Jesus as their example, of worshiping the Bible. It is unfortunate some are unable to tell the difference.

2,190 posted on 01/18/2013 9:49:37 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: metmom
And covering up for priests who molested little boys. Heretic, dontcha know, NOBODY is perfect. Oh, wait a minute, they claim they are

you seem unable to understand the concept of individuals being evil, and institutions erring.....think real hard now.....if you, as a Democrat do something stupid, does that reflect on the Democrat party????.........oh wait, that was redundant....sorry

2,191 posted on 01/18/2013 9:50:53 PM PST by terycarl
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To: metmom
God doesn't need the Catholic church. Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit to do that job.

"...and if he won't listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector." --Jesus

2,192 posted on 01/18/2013 9:51:24 PM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: SteelTrap

I think the real question is - what if the leaders of the catholic church are not really Christian? If they are apostate and servants of satan? How would we even know? The Bible warns us of false prophets.

That question applies to protestants too - not catholic bashing here. Benny Hinn who is a fairly well known fakester from the evangelical angle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6SvSjaU62M


2,193 posted on 01/18/2013 9:54:05 PM PST by SteelTrap
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To: metmom
How can you be sure? Were you there watching them 24/7?

no one can prove a negative, and you certainly cannot prove your positive

2,194 posted on 01/18/2013 9:55:33 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl
you didn't learn of Christianity by a direct revelation from God

That is not what I said. I said "Christianity was brought to me DIRECTLY from Jesus through the Holy Spirit."

And it was. Are you calling me a liar?

you were raised in a Christian home, by Christian parents who learned Christianity from a pastor or priest or whatever

You know nothing about me, how dare you make stuff up and post it as if it is a fact!

That is mindreading and personal, both not allowed in the Religion Forum

but all that information came through the Catholic church

No it didn't. For the last time can you stop posting that false and erroneous balderdash?

there was no one else in the world to bring it to you.

No one that Catholics eyes can see apparently.

Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.--Ezekiel 12:2

But Jesus answered, "I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!"--Luke 19:40

You CANNOT quench the Spirt no matter how hard you try.

BTW, I do not hit the abuse button to alert the mods of rule breaking.

2,195 posted on 01/18/2013 10:05:02 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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To: metmom
which flavor of the 20+ some Catholic rites is the correct one? If they haven't divorced themselves from the true church, then they are still true. The Orthodox or Eastern rites, for example , are although schismatic, that is not in complete agreement as to the hierarchy of the church, are nonetheless in agreement as to dogma...we're all together, just have some family issues!!!!
2,196 posted on 01/18/2013 10:05:34 PM PST by terycarl
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To: Natural Law

Yeah thats why I’m talking to you guys. I know what the Bible says in that verse. Recently I found out “my” Bible is different that “your” Bible. Never knew! Now I realize you are are a adherent to a belief system that is foreign to me. As I am to you apparently. Just trying to understand why this stuff matters. I’ve never been told I was going to hell because I wasn’t catholic. At least not until lately. Now I’m paying attention. In a big way.


2,197 posted on 01/18/2013 10:06:53 PM PST by SteelTrap
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Comment #2,198 Removed by Moderator

To: Natural Law; metmom
"Well then, by Catholic reasoning, since I also have the Holy Spirit in me, then *I* can forgive or retain sins."

Nope, not now, not never! You haven't been ordained by the laying on of the hands and do not have the right plumbing for that to ever happen.

Here is another example of Catholicism creating their own doctrine outside of what Scripture says. When Jesus gave his commission and the Holy Spirit with the message of the forgiveness of sins through the gospel (note this was BEFORE Pentecost) he had appeared to the "disciples" who had gathered in the upper room. He addressed these same disciples which INCLUDED Mary Magdelene as well as Jesus' mother, Mary:

John 20:19-20 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

So, this idea that women were not included in the "great commission" is a false one which resulted from a faulty reading and understanding of Scripture and, over time, the doctrines of Catholic Church superceding the Word of God.

2,199 posted on 01/18/2013 10:12:36 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: terycarl
Obviously.

And apparantly you don't know how to format a post so it is clear who said what.

I suggest posters let their minds catch up with their fingers before they type.

And read each post twice before responding.

If you want to understand what I posted to you, go back and read it slowly a couple of times.

I don't like “quotes” attributed to me that I didn't say.

2,200 posted on 01/18/2013 10:13:36 PM PST by Syncro ("So?" - -Andrew Breitbart --The King of All Media RIP Feb 1, 1969 – Mar 1, 2012)
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