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11 Reasons the Authority of Christianity Is Centered on St. Peter and Rome
stpeterslist ^ | December 19, 2012

Posted on 01/06/2013 3:56:49 PM PST by NYer

Bl. John Henry Newman said it best: “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” History paints an overwhelming picture of St. Peter’s apostolic ministry in Rome and this is confirmed by a multitude of different sources within the Early Church. Catholic Encyclopedia states, “In opposition to this distinct and unanimous testimony of early Christendom, some few Protestant historians have attempted in recent times to set aside the residence and death of Peter at Rome as legendary. These attempts have resulted in complete failure.” Protestantism as a whole seeks to divorce Christianity from history by rending Gospel message out of its historical context as captured by our Early Church Fathers. One such target of these heresies is to devalue St. Peter and to twist the authority of Rome into a historical mishap within Christianity. To wit, the belief has as its end the ultimate end of all Catholic and Protestant dialogue – who has authority in Christianity?

 

Why is it important to defend the tradition of St. Peter and Rome?
The importance of establishing St. Peter’s ministry in Rome may be boiled down to authority and more specifically the historic existence and continuance of the Office of Vicar held by St. Peter. To understand why St. Peter was important and what authority was given to him by Christ SPL has composed two lists – 10 Biblical Reasons Christ Founded the Papacy and 13 Reasons St. Peter Was the Prince of the Apostles.

The rest of the list is cited from the Catholic Encyclopedia on St. Peter and represents only a small fraction of the evidence set therein.

 

The Apostolic Primacy of St. Peter and Rome

It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom. As to the duration of his Apostolic activity in the Roman capital, the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter.

St. Peter’s residence and death in Rome are established beyond contention as historical facts by a series of distinct testimonies extending from the end of the first to the end of the second centuries, and issuing from several lands.

 

1. The Gospel of St. John

That the manner, and therefore the place of his death, must have been known in widely extended Christian circles at the end of the first century is clear from the remark introduced into the Gospel of St. John concerning Christ’s prophecy that Peter was bound to Him and would be led whither he would not — “And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God” (John 21:18-19, see above). Such a remark presupposes in the readers of the Fourth Gospel a knowledge of the death of Peter.

 

2. Salutations, from Babylon

St. Peter’s First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: “The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark” (5:13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Revelation 17:5; 18:10; “Oracula Sibyl.”, V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).

 

3. Gospel of St. Mark

From Bishop Papias of Hierapolis and Clement of Alexandria, who both appeal to the testimony of the old presbyters (i.e., the disciples of the Apostles), we learn that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome at the request of the Roman Christians, who desired a written memorial of the doctrine preached to them by St. Peter and his disciples (Eusebius, Church History II.15, 3.40, 6.14); this is confirmed by Irenaeus (Against Heresies 3.1). In connection with this information concerning the Gospel of St. Mark, Eusebius, relying perhaps on an earlier source, says that Peter described Rome figuratively as Babylon in his First Epistle.

 

4. Testimony of Pope St. Clement I

Another testimony concerning the martyrdom of Peter and Paul is supplied by Clement of Rome in his Epistle to the Corinthians (written about A.D. 95-97), wherein he says (chapter 5):

“Through zeal and cunning the greatest and most righteous supports [of the Church] have suffered persecution and been warred to death. Let us place before our eyes the good Apostles — St. Peter, who in consequence of unjust zeal, suffered not one or two, but numerous miseries, and, having thus given testimony (martyresas), has entered the merited place of glory”.

He then mentions Paul and a number of elect, who were assembled with the others and suffered martyrdom “among us” (en hemin, i.e., among the Romans, the meaning that the expression also bears in chapter 4). He is speaking undoubtedly, as the whole passage proves, of the Neronian persecution, and thus refers the martyrdom of Peter and Paul to that epoch.

 

5. Testimony of St. Ignatius of Antioch

In his letter written at the beginning of the second century (before 117), while being brought to Rome for martyrdom, the venerable Bishop Ignatius of Antioch endeavours by every means to restrain the Roman Christians from striving for his pardon, remarking: “I issue you no commands, like Peter and Paul: they were Apostles, while I am but a captive” (Epistle to the Romans 4). The meaning of this remark must be that the two Apostles laboured personally in Rome, and with Apostolic authority preached the Gospel there.

 

6. Taught in the Same Place in Italy

Bishop Dionysius of Corinth, in his letter to the Roman Church in the time of Pope Soter (165-74), says:

“You have therefore by your urgent exhortation bound close together the sowing of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth. For both planted the seed of the Gospel also in Corinth, and together instructed us, just as they likewise taught in the same place in Italy and at the same time suffered martyrdom” (in Eusebius, Church History II.25).

 

 

7. Rome: Founded by Sts. Peter and Paul

Irenaeus of Lyons, a native of Asia Minor and a disciple of Polycarp of Smyrna (a disciple of St. John), passed a considerable time in Rome shortly after the middle of the second century, and then proceeded to Lyons, where he became bishop in 177; he described the Roman Church as the most prominent and chief preserver of the Apostolic tradition, as “the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul” (Against Heresies 3.3; cf. 3.1). He thus makes use of the universally known and recognized fact of the Apostolic activity of Peter and Paul in Rome, to find therein a proof from tradition against the heretics.

 

8. St. Peter Announced the Word of God in Rome

In his “Hypotyposes” (Eusebius, Church History IV.14), Clement of Alexandria, teacher in the catechetical school of that city from about 190, says on the strength of the tradition of the presbyters: “After Peter had announced the Word of God in Rome and preached the Gospel in the spirit of God, the multitude of hearers requested Mark, who had long accompanied Peter on all his journeys, to write down what the Apostles had preached to them” (see above).

 

9. Rome: Where Authority is Ever Within Reach

Like Irenaeus, Tertullian appeals, in his writings against heretics, to the proof afforded by the Apostolic labours of Peter and Paul in Rome of the truth of ecclesiastical tradition. In De Præscriptione 36, he says:

“If thou art near Italy, thou hast Rome where authority is ever within reach. How fortunate is this Church for which the Apostles have poured out their whole teaching with their blood, where Peter has emulated the Passion of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John.”

In Scorpiace 15, he also speaks of Peter’s crucifixion. “The budding faith Nero first made bloody in Rome. There Peter was girded by another, since he was bound to the cross”. As an illustration that it was immaterial with what water baptism is administered, he states in his book (On Baptism 5) that there is “no difference between that with which John baptized in the Jordan and that with which Peter baptized in the Tiber”; and against Marcion he appeals to the testimony of the Roman Christians, “to whom Peter and Paul have bequeathed the Gospel sealed with their blood” (Against Marcion 4.5).

 

10. Come to the Vatican and See for Yourself

The Roman, Caius, who lived in Rome in the time of Pope Zephyrinus (198-217), wrote in his “Dialogue with Proclus” (in Eusebius, Church History II.25) directed against the Montanists: “But I can show the trophies of the Apostles. If you care to go to the Vatican or to the road to Ostia, thou shalt find the trophies of those who have founded this Church”.

By the trophies (tropaia) Eusebius understands the graves of the Apostles, but his view is opposed by modern investigators who believe that the place of execution is meant. For our purpose it is immaterial which opinion is correct, as the testimony retains its full value in either case. At any rate the place of execution and burial of both were close together; St. Peter, who was executed on the Vatican, received also his burial there. Eusebius also refers to “the inscription of the names of Peter and Paul, which have been preserved to the present day on the burial-places there” (i.e. at Rome).

 

11. Ancient Epigraphic Memorial

There thus existed in Rome an ancient epigraphic memorial commemorating the death of the Apostles. The obscure notice in the Muratorian Fragment (“Lucas optime theofile conprindit quia sub praesentia eius singula gerebantur sicuti et semote passionem petri evidenter declarat”, ed. Preuschen, Tübingen, 1910, p. 29) also presupposes an ancient definite tradition concerning Peter’s death in Rome.

The apocryphal Acts of St. Peter and the Acts of Sts. Peter and Paul likewise belong to the series of testimonies of the death of the two Apostles in Rome.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS: churchhistory
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To: CynicalBear; terycarl
Should we also say that by becoming Catholic a person can live like they want just like the Kennedy’s?

Teddy did get a Catholic funeral.

Where do we see priests refusing communion to Catholic politicians who are democrat and support abortion and gay marriage?

501 posted on 01/08/2013 6:34:28 PM PST by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear

COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D

Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195, citing S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents [illustrative of the history, doctrine and rites, of the ancient Albigenses & Waldenses], London, Rivington, 1832, pp. 192-194.

The Council of Tarragona of 1234, in its second canon:

“No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned lest, be he a cleric or a layman, he be suspected until he is cleared of all suspicion.” (-D. Lortsch, Historie de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.)

************************************************************

Imagine that........


502 posted on 01/08/2013 6:40:14 PM PST by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Iscool
"I don't buy into your self perceived wisdom...Why, a man would be a fool to trust his eternal salvation to another man who claims to be Jesus...I could post scripture all day long refuting your human philosophy... "

In my post which you are referring to, I did not express any "philosophy" at all, nor did I express any kind of "self perceived wisdom".

I merely stated some simple facts, and asked you some simple questions. They can all be boiled down to their simplist forms, which I will repeat here.

The factual statements: God deliberately chose imperfect, weak, frail human beings as His instruments of communication to write every single Book in the Bible for Him (both in the "Old Testament" and in the "New Testament"). Not one single Book in the Bible was ever written where God did not specifically make use of an imperfect, weak, frail human being who God had specifically chosen for that communication task to write that Book.

Neither of those statements is a "philosophy" -- they are simply statements of fact. They are either true, or they are not true.

My question to you was/is, do you believe those statements are true, or do you believe they are not true?

My point is also a statement of fact that is either true, or not true, and simply says that God often chooses to delegate various tasks (which He can easily do on His own if He wills it) to imperfect, weak, frail human beings to perform. Do you deny that?

503 posted on 01/08/2013 6:43:46 PM PST by Heart-Rest ("The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: Heart-Rest
I do not believe that the RCC interpretation of those verses is correct and justifies the priesthood, especially in light of the fact that we are promised that we can pray to God, the Father, Himself and HE will answer and forgive our sins.

Unless you think Jesus was wrong or lying here.

Luke 11:1-4 Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them, “When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread, 4 and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.”

Jesus HIMSELF taught us to go to the Father for forgiveness.

504 posted on 01/08/2013 6:49:48 PM PST by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
Luke 11:1-4 Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them, “When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread, 4 and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.”

Jesus HIMSELF taught us to go to the Father for forgiveness.

Yes, He most certainly did, and He also told us in the verse just before the one you emphasized -- "...forgive us our sins..." -- to also ask Our Father to "Give us each day our daily bread", but He was NOT telling us to never go shopping for our food, or to never make use of grocers (or some other human beings) to get our daily bread (or to avoid human spiritual teachers for spiritual bread).

Do you just wait indefinitely for God to hand you your daily bread directly each day, or do you sometimes go out shopping for groceries through various other human beings?

505 posted on 01/08/2013 7:05:56 PM PST by Heart-Rest ("The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: Heart-Rest

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “


506 posted on 01/08/2013 7:09:29 PM PST by narses
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To: terycarl; metmom; boatbums; Iscool
Wait, I thought you said “The Church kept scripture out of the hands of noone....”.

Then I showed you this proving they did just that.

“Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

Which specifically refers to ”the Old or New Testament”. Now you come up with “there were many false “scripture” interpretations around at the time.”? Are you kidding me? Canon 14 specifically states that ”We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament”. Then it goes on to say we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books”.. Canon 14 is not restricting copies or translations that were “false interpretations”. It denied them having “the books of the Old or New Testament” period. Something you denied and are now trying to somehow bamboozle us into believing something different than truth. It ain’t working with those of us who do know truth.

507 posted on 01/08/2013 7:10:06 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom
“Where do we see priests refusing communion to Catholic politicians who are democrat and support abortion and gay marriage?<<

We don’t, we see hypocrites.

508 posted on 01/08/2013 7:11:55 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: narses; Heart-Rest
>>‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’<<

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

509 posted on 01/08/2013 7:15:27 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Heart-Rest
Do you just wait indefinitely for God to hand you your daily bread directly each day, or do you sometimes go out shopping for groceries through various other human beings?

Not if someone promises it to me as a gift, delivered daily.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

510 posted on 01/08/2013 7:38:51 PM PST by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear
>>‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’<< Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

So, do you believe that the New Testament "Books" of the Bible were written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

If all of those other believers back them who "received the Holy Spirit" received exactly the same things from the Holy Spirit, are all their writings also inspired just like the writings that were included in the Bible, and should we seek all those other writings from all those other believers out, and add them to the Bible now?

Or, do you think that only some who received the Holy Spirit back then were actually chosen by God to write Sacred Scripture, and others who received the Holy Spirit were selectively singled out by God for other specific functions, such as ministerial priestly duties, or healing, and so forth?

511 posted on 01/08/2013 7:40:32 PM PST by Heart-Rest ("The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: metmom
You can't say "I'm born again" and then lead whatever kind of lifestyle that you choose. Who said that?? Give me the link to one post here on FR where anyone has ever said that or made that claim. That is nothing more than a strawman that Catholics keep erecting and beating up on about non-Catholics.

\there are people on this and other threads who insist that you are automatically saved if you are born again....you are not. The only ones who seem to think that anyone believes it are the Catholics

512 posted on 01/08/2013 7:45:39 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl
there were many false “scripture” interpretations around at the time. The church knew that people could not afford the true hand written copies from the monastaries, hence, for their own protection, and to prevent heresies from spreading, they regulated reading material to the masses.

But I thought you just said that the RCC didn't keep the Bible from the people.

for their own protection

riiiiiggghhhttt...

God keep us from those who would protect us from ourselves......

513 posted on 01/08/2013 7:51:30 PM PST by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Elsie
Luke shows up in MY bible AFTER Matthew...

Unfortunately for you, that does not make it any less true.

YOU:

    And you IGNORE the scripture (#180) I posted that PROVES He didn't [name Simon "Peter"]?

LUKE:
    Simon, whom He also named Peter...

Who should we believe? The gospel according to you or to Luke?

I'll stick with the truth in Luke. Half baked ideas are better left in the cooker.

514 posted on 01/08/2013 7:52:25 PM PST by Al Hitan (Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.)
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To: metmom
The Catholic church did NOT write the OT, the Jewish Scripture, and the NT was written before the recorded history of the Catholic church. This laying claim retroactively to being responsible for the existence of the Bible is simply a power grab to try to control Scripture, and non-Catholics who adhere to it.

please wake up....for the first 1,600 years of church history there were Catholics...they were the church, they edited, transcribed, saved, loved and copied, by hand, the bible....there was no one else to do it. They are solely responsible for the bibles existance...if not them, then who.....think of how long 1,600 years is....from the year 413A.D. until now. That is a long time to be in charge of anything and remember, there was no one else doing it....only the Cathilics.

515 posted on 01/08/2013 7:54:09 PM PST by terycarl
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To: Heart-Rest
What silliness. You obviously forget that Christ also told the disciples that the Holy Spirit would bring to their remembrance all that He taught them.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So you see. The apostles were the ones who would write down what Christ taught them. Christ didn’t teach all those others personally did He.

516 posted on 01/08/2013 7:54:23 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom
Amen! That is beautiful!

(None of that conflicts with Catholic doctrine.)

(Do you see anything in there that restricts how you confess your sins, or who you get your daily bread from, such as human grocers, or somehow restricts you from getting spiritual food and light through intermediate human sources, such as the human writers of the Gospels, or from human preachers, for example?    I don't.)

I have to go now, but I'll try to check back tomorrow for your reply.

May God bless you abundantly.

517 posted on 01/08/2013 7:54:23 PM PST by Heart-Rest ("The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: terycarl
there are people on this and other threads who insist that you are automatically saved if you are born again....you are not.

Well, if you are born spiritually, which is what being born again is, you have spiritual life, so yeah, you ARE saved. Jesus taught as much in John 3 where He tells us we must be born again.

It we're not saved when we're born again, what's the point of he second birth? To go to hell anyway?

518 posted on 01/08/2013 7:54:51 PM PST by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: terycarl
please wake up....for the first 1,600 years of church history there were Catholics...they were the church, they edited, transcribed, saved, loved and copied, by hand, the bible....there was no one else to do it.

That cannot possibly be true, that there was no one else to do it. There was simply no one else they would allow to do it since they kept it out of the hands of the people.

They are solely responsible for the bibles existance...if not them, then who.....

Who? For real?

How about *God*.

Where would God be without the Catholic church to take care of things for Him.

/roll eyes....

519 posted on 01/08/2013 7:58:00 PM PST by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Elsie

Um, no. He’s not the Pope Benedict XVI, with whom we’ve been blessed, at this point in time.


520 posted on 01/08/2013 7:58:37 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: Heart-Rest

I have a full dance card tomorrow and was just going to hit the sack.

No guarantees as to when I’ll get to it but I will.


521 posted on 01/08/2013 8:00:07 PM PST by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
there were many false “scripture” interpretations around at the time. The church knew that people could not afford the true hand written copies from the monastaries, hence, for their own protection, and to prevent heresies from spreading, they regulated reading material to the masses. But I thought you just said that the RCC didn't keep the Bible from the people. for their own protection

read my post very carefully....I stated that there were many false interpretations of scripture to be had and the church was trying to prevent her people from being subjected to false teachings. It wasn't until the printing press was invented that the average citizen could afford a book of any kind. The real bible has always been available to Catholics and the Catholic Mass is the most biblical church service that you could ever attend....by far.

522 posted on 01/08/2013 8:07:16 PM PST by terycarl
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To: metmom
there were many false “scripture” interpretations around at the time. The church knew that people could not afford the true hand written copies from the monastaries, hence, for their own protection, and to prevent heresies from spreading, they regulated reading material to the masses. But I thought you just said that the RCC didn't keep the Bible from the people. for their own protection

read my post very carefully....I stated that there were many false interpretations of scripture to be had and the church was trying to prevent her people from being subjected to false teachings. It wasn't until the printing press was invented that the average citizen could afford a book of any kind. The real bible has always been available to Catholics and the Catholic Mass is the most biblical church service that you could ever attend....by far.

523 posted on 01/08/2013 8:08:58 PM PST by terycarl
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To: CynicalBear
"Christ didn’t teach all those others personally did He. "

Did Christ teach Saul/Paul personally, other than knocking him down with a bright light, and asking Saul why he was persecuting Him?

(I have to leave now, but I'll try to check back tomorrow for your civil and astute response.)

524 posted on 01/08/2013 8:12:00 PM PST by Heart-Rest ("The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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To: metmom
and copied, by hand, the bible....there was no one else to do it. That cannot possibly be true, that there was no one else to do it. There was simply no one else they would allow to do it since they kept it out of the hands of the people. They are solely responsible for the bibles existance...if not them, then who..... Who? For real? How about *God*. Where would God be without the Catholic church to take care of things for Him.

God???? God has a printing press???/God copies manuscripts BY HAND??? God uses people to accomplish His goals and He used the Catholic church to preserve the bible.It is that simple. Where would God be without the church...well He would still be God, but you would have never heard of Christ, Mary and Joseph, Pilate, the Magi etc. etc. because it was through the Catholic church that this normal, human story was brought to you. You seem to think that this information, as holy as it is, would just somehow be there without someone to do the work to bring it to you. Thank God that the Catholic church was there to do it.

525 posted on 01/08/2013 8:19:54 PM PST by terycarl
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To: terycarl; CynicalBear

>> “ hence, for their own protection, and to prevent heresies from spreading, they regulated reading material to the masses.” <<

.
That is Nicolaitanism, and Yeshua declared that he hated it.

Catholic is “Religion,” and Yeshua is “The Way,” and never will the two meet.


526 posted on 01/08/2013 8:29:30 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: HarleyD

Did Augustine equate free-will with Pelagianism? I thought that the issue between them was on the degree of human depravity? A low opinion of human nature is certainly central to Calvinism. Pelagius had a very different view. He got a warmer reception in the east, because at first sight, it seems close to the eastern notion of synergy. The language that Augustine developed was certainly off-putting to them. But even in his blackest mood, even as his Roman world seems to be disappearing under his feet, Augustine seems less pessimistic than Calvin about the state of human nature. Funny that Pelagius should appear on the scene just as barbarism seems close to overwhelming Roman civilization and thereby darkening Augustine’s mood.


527 posted on 01/08/2013 8:39:38 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

I don’t answer agitprop.


528 posted on 01/08/2013 8:41:13 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Rashputin; Elsie
Until Martin Luther threw out portions of the Old Testament and wanted to throw out Hebrews (which would have sidestepped this and other issues for him), James (which contains direct contradictions of Luther's doctrines), Jude (which warns against Luther's doctrines), and Revelation (which contains epistles from Christ Himself), everyone knew and accepted that perlates were leaders in the church who had been properly ordained by someone with a direct connection back to Christ through ordination traced directly back to Christ just like a legal chain of evidence can trace something back to the point of origin.

You are one to be pointing fingers at people with accusations of "lying" when you were corrected continuously over the FACT that Luther did NOT throw out any books of the Bible - PERIOD! But, here you are once again stating it like it was a known truth and as if no one ever proved you wrong before. What will it take for you to stop posting this nonsense?

529 posted on 01/08/2013 8:44:46 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: CynicalBear
"Then I showed you this proving they did just that."

Except that you exposed just enough of the canon's of these councils to "prove" your point, but not enough to reveal the truth. These councils were called in response to the Cathar and Albigenesian, which were using adulterated vernacular versions of the Bible that produced doctrines that were destructive to society and the individuals. It was these "bibles", not unlike the Watchtower, Book of Mormon or Koran that were banned.

God is served when we who participate in these threads are more concerned with what is true and not in trying to deceive to prove who is true.

Peace be with you

530 posted on 01/08/2013 9:09:15 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: metmom
"But I thought you just said that the RCC didn't keep the Bible from the people."

Are you saying that the vernacular transcripts in support of heresies are "the Bible" or simply trying to fabricate a debate point?

531 posted on 01/08/2013 9:13:24 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: CynicalBear
"You obviously forget that Christ also told the disciples that the Holy Spirit would bring to their remembrance all that He taught them."

What Jesus promised in John 14:26 was a Paraclete. This Paraclete, both the giver and the gift, is what ensures the ongoing inerrancy of His Church.

Peace be with you.

532 posted on 01/08/2013 9:23:06 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: narses; Heart-Rest
“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “(John 20:23)

Whose soever sins ... - See the notes at Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18. It is worthy of remark here that Jesus confers the same power on all the apostles. He gives to no one of them any special authority. If Peter, as the Papists pretend, had been appointed to any special authority, it is wonderful that the Saviour did not here hint at any such pre-eminence. This passage conclusively proves that they were invested with equal power in organizing and governing the church. The authority which he had given Peter to preach the gospel first to the Jews and the Gentiles, does not militate against this. See the notes at Matthew 16:18-19. This authority given them was full proof that they were inspired. The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins that belongs only to God Isaiah 43:23 but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Spirit to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained. This commission is as far as possible from the authority which the Roman Catholic claims of remitting sin and of pronouncing pardon. (Barnes' Notes on the Bible http://bible.cc/john/20-23.htm)

533 posted on 01/08/2013 9:25:21 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
"You are one to be pointing fingers at people with accusations of "lying" when you were corrected continuously over the FACT that Luther did NOT throw out any books of the Bible - PERIOD!"

That position is not supported by historical fact. You may argue that the Canon was flawed, but Luther DID remove entire books from the Bible. Peace be with you

534 posted on 01/08/2013 9:29:08 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: terycarl; metmom
The Formation of the Canon of the New Testament

B.B. Warfield http://www.the-highway.com/ntcanon_Warfield.html

IN ORDER to obtain a correct understanding of what is called the formation of the Canon of the New Testament, it is necessary to begin by fixing very firmly in our minds one fact which is obvious enough when attention is once called to it. That is, that the Christian church did not require to form for itself the idea of a “ canon,” — or, as we should more commonly call it, of a “Bible,” — that is, of a collection of books given of God to be the authoritative rule of faith and practice. It inherited this idea from the Jewish church, along with the thing itself, the Jewish Scriptures, or the “ Canon of the Old Testament.” The church did not grow up by natural law: it was founded. And the authoritative teachers sent forth by Christ to found His church, carried with them, as their most precious possession, a body of divine Scriptures, which they imposed on the church that they founded as its code of law. No reader of the New Testament can need proof of this; on every page of that book is spread the evidence that from the very beginning the Old Testament was as cordially recognized as law by the Christian as by the Jew. The Christian church thus was never without a “Bible” or a “canon.”

But the Old Testament books were not the only ones which the apostles (by Christ’s own appointment the authoritative founders of the church) imposed upon the infant churches, as their authoritative rule of faith and practice. No more authority dwelt in the prophets of the old covenant than in themselves, the apostles, who had been “made sufficient as ministers of a new covenant “; for (as one of themselves argued) “if that which passeth away was with glory, much more that which remaineth is in glory.” Accordingly not only was the gospel they delivered, in their own estimation, itself a divine revelation, but it was also preached “in the Holy Ghost” (I Pet. i. 12); not merely the matter of it, but the very words in which it was clothed were “of the Holy Spirit” (I Cor. ii. 13). Their own commands were, therefore, of divine authority (I Thess. iv. 2), and their writings were the depository of these commands (II Thess. ii. 15). “If any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle,” says Paul to one church (II Thess. iii. 14), “note that man, that ye have no company with him.” To another he makes it the test of a Spirit-led man to recognize that what he was writing to them was “the commandments of the Lord” (I Cor. xiv. 37). Inevitably, such writings, making so awful a claim on their acceptance, were received by the infant churches as of a quality equal to that of the old “Bible “; placed alongside of its older books as an additional part of the one law of God; and read as such in their meetings for worship — a practice which moreover was required by the apostles (I Thess. v. 27; Col. iv. 16; Rev. 1. 3). In the apprehension, therefore, of the earliest churches, the “Scriptures” were not a closed but an increasing “canon.” Such they had been from the beginning, as they gradually grew in number from Moses to Malachi; and such they were to continue as long as there should remain among the churches “men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

We say that this immediate placing of the new books — given the church under the seal of apostolic authority — among the Scriptures already established as such, was inevitable. It is also historically evinced from the very beginning. Thus the apostle Peter, writing in A.D. 68, speaks of Paul’s numerous letters not in contrast with the Scriptures, but as among the Scriptures and in contrast with “the other Scriptures” (II Pet. iii. 16) — that is, of course, those of the Old Testament. In like manner the apostle Paul combines, as if it were the most natural thing in the world, the book of Deuteronomy and the Gospel of Luke under the common head of “Scripture” (I Tim. v. 18): “For the Scripture saith, ‘Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn’ [Deut. xxv. 4]; and, ‘The laborer is worthy of his hire’” (Luke x. 7). The line of such quotations is never broken in Christian literature. Polycarp (c. 12) in A.D. 115 unites the Psalms and Ephesians in exactly similar manner: “In the sacred books, . . . as it is said in these Scriptures, ‘Be ye angry and sin not,’ and ‘Let not the sun go down upon your wrath.’” So, a few years later, the so-called second letter of Clement, after quoting Isaiah, adds (ii. 4): “And another Scripture, however, says, ‘I came not to call the righteous, but sinners’” — quoting from Matthew, a book which Barnabas (circa 97-106 A.D.) had already adduced as Scripture. After this such quotations are common.

What needs emphasis at present about these facts is that they obviously are not evidences of a gradually-heightening estimate of the New Testament books, originally received on a lower level and just beginning to be tentatively accounted Scripture; they are conclusive evidences rather of the estimation of the New Testament books from the very beginning as Scripture, and of their attachment as Scripture to the other Scriptures already in hand. The early Christians did not, then, first form a rival “canon” of “new books” which came only gradually to be accounted as of equal divinity and authority with the “old books”; they received new book after new book from the apostolical circle, as equally” Scripture “ with the old books, and added them one by one to the collection of old books as additional Scriptures, until at length the new books thus added were numerous enough to be looked upon as another section of the Scriptures.

The earliest name given to this new section of Scripture was framed on the model of the name by which what we know as the Old Testament was then known. Just as it was called “The Law and the Prophets and the Psalms” (or “the Hagiographa”), or more briefly “The Law and the Prophets,” or even more briefly still “The Law”; so the enlarged Bible was called “The Law and the Prophets, with the Gospels and the Apostles” (so Clement of Alexandria, “Strom.” vi. 11, 88; Tertullian, “De Præs. Hær.” 36), or most briefly “The Law and the Gospel” (so Claudius Apolinaris, Irenæus); while the new books apart were called “The Gospel and the Apostles,” or most briefly of all” The Gospel.” This earliest name for the new Bible, with all that it involves as to its relation to the old and briefer Bible, is traceable as far back as Ignatius (A.D. 115), who makes use of it repeatedly (e.g., “ad Philad.” 5; “ad Smyrn.” 7). In one passage he gives us a hint of the controversies which the enlarged Bible of the Christians aroused among the Judaizers (“ad Philad.” 6). “When I heard some saying,” he writes, “‘Unless I find it in the Old [Books] I will not believe the Gospel,’ on my saying, ‘It is written,’ they answered, ‘That is the question.’ To me, however, Jesus Christ is the Old [Books]; his cross and death and resurrection, and the faith which is by him, the undefiled Old [Books] — by which I wish, by your prayers, to be justified. The priests indeed are good, but the High Priest better,” etc. Here Ignatius appeals to the “Gospel” as Scripture, and the Judaizers object, receiving from him the answer in effect which Augustine afterward formulated in the well-known saying that the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is first made clear in the New. What we need now to observe, however, is that to Ignatius the New Testament was not a different book from the Old Testament, but part of the one body of Scripture with it; an accretion, so to speak, which had grown upon it.

This is the testimony of all the early witnesses — even those which speak for the distinctively Jewish-Christian church. For example, that curious Jewish-Christian writing, “The Testaments of the XII. Patriarchs” (Benj. 11), tells us, under the cover of an ex post facto prophecy, that the “work and word” of Paul, i.e., confessedly the book of Acts and Paul’s Epistles, “shall be written in the Holy Books,” i.e., as is understood by all, made a part of the existent Bible. So even in the Talmud, in a scene intended to ridicule a “bishop” of the first century, he is represented as finding Galatians by “sinking himself deeper” into the same “Book” which contained the Law of Moses (“Babl. Shabbath,” 116 a and b). The details cannot be entered into here. Let it suffice to say that, from the evidence of the fragments which alone have been preserved to us of the Christian writings of that very early time, it appears that from the beginning of the second century (and that is from the end of the apostolic age) a collection (Ignatius, II Clement) of “New Books” (Ignatius), called the “Gospel and Apostles” (Ignatius, Marcion), was already a part of the “Oracles” of God (Polycarp, Papias, II Clement), or “Scriptures” (I Tim., II Pet., Barn., Polycarp, II Clement), or the” Holy Books “or “Bible” (Testt. XII. Patt.).

The number of books included in this added body of New Books, at the opening of the second century, cannot be satisfactorily determined by the evidence of these fragments alone. The section of it called the “Gospel” included Gospels written by “the apostles and their companions” (Justin), which beyond legitimate question were our four Gospels now received. The section called “the Apostles contained the book of Acts (The Testt. XII. Patt.) and epistles of Paul, John, Peter and James. The evidence from various quarters is indeed enough to show that the collection in general use contained all the books which we at present receive, with the possible exceptions of Jude, II and III John and Philemon. And it is more natural to suppose that failure of very early evidence for these brief booklets is due to their insignificant size rather than to their non-acceptance.

It is to be borne in mind, however, that the extent of the collection may have — and indeed is historically shown actually to have — varied in different localities. The Bible was circulated only in hand-copies, slowly and painfully made; and an incomplete copy, obtained say at Ephesus in A.D. 68, would be likely to remain for many years the Bible of the church to which it was conveyed; and might indeed become the parent of other copies, incomplete like itself, and thus the means of providing a whole district with incomplete Bibles. Thus, when we inquire after the history of the New Testament Canon we need to distinguish such questions as these: (1) When was the New Testament Canon completed? (2) When did any one church acquire a completed Canon? (3) When did the completed canon — the complete Bible — obtain universal circulation and acceptance? (4) On what ground and evidence did the churches with incomplete Bibles accept the remaining books when they were made known to them?

The Canon of the New Testament was completed when the last authoritative book was given to any church by the apostles, and that was when John wrote the Apocalypse, about A.D. 98. Whether the church of Ephesus, however, had a completed Canon when it received the Apocalypse, or not, would depend on whether there was any epistle, say that of Jude, which had not yet reached it with authenticating proof of its apostolicity. There is room for historical investigation here. Certainly the whole Canon was not universally received by the churches till somewhat later. The Latin church of the second and third centuries did not quite know what to do with the Epistle to the Hebrews. The Syrian churches for some centuries may have lacked the lesser of the Catholic Epistles and Revelation. But from the time of Irenæus down, the church at large had the whole Canon as we now possess it. And though a section of the church may not yet have been satisfied of the apostolicity of a certain book or of certain books; and though afterwards doubts may have arisen in sections of the church as to the apostolicity of certain books (as e. g. of Revelation): yet in no case was it more than a respectable minority of the church which was slow in receiving, or which came afterward to doubt, the credentials of any of the books that then as now constituted the Canon of the New Testament accepted by the church at large. And in every case the principle on which a book was accepted, or doubts against it laid aside, was the historical tradition of apostolicity.

Let it, however, be clearly understood that it was not exactly apostolic authorship which in the estimation of the earliest churches, constituted a book a portion of the “canon.” Apostolic authorship was, indeed, early confounded with canonicity. It was doubt as to the apostolic authorship of Hebrews, in the West, and of James and Jude, apparently, which underlay the slowness of the inclusion of these books in the “canon” of certain churches. But from the beginning it was not so. The principle of canonicity was not apostolic authorship, but imposition by the apostles as “law.” Hence Tertullian’s name for the “canon” is “instrumentum”; and he speaks of the Old and New Instrument as we would of the Old and New Testament. That the apostles so imposed the Old Testament on the churches which they founded — as their “Instrument,” or “Law,” or “Canon” — can be denied by none. And in imposing new books on the same churches, by the same apostolical authority, they did not confine themselves to books of their own composition. It is the Gospel according to Luke, a man who was not an apostle, which Paul parallels in I Tim. v. 18 with Deuteronomy as equally “Scripture” with it in the first extant quotation of a New Testament book of as Scripture. The Gospels which constituted the first division of the New Books, — of “The Gospel and the Apostles,” — Justin tells us, were “written by the apostles and their companions.” The authority of the apostles, as by divine appointment founders of the church, was embodied in whatever books they imposed on the church as law, not merely in those they themselves had written.

The early churches, in short, received, as we receive, into their New Testament all the books historically evinced to them as given by the apostles to the churches as their code of law; and we must not mistake the historical evidences of the slow circulation and authentication of these books over the widely-extended church, for evidence of slowness of “canonization” of books by the authority or the taste of the church itself.

535 posted on 01/08/2013 9:40:01 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
"B.B. Warfield"

An appeal to authority is only effective when the authority is universally accepted. Presenting a Protestant academic as an authoritative source in contravention to Catholic teaching and expecting Catholics to accept it is a fools errand.

Peace be with you

536 posted on 01/08/2013 9:48:32 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law
That position is not supported by historical fact. You may argue that the Canon was flawed, but Luther DID remove entire books from the Bible.

You know, I could swear you were a participant on the recent thread where this subject was discussed. But, just in case, here is a link (though there are many more) that proves Luther definitely did NOT remove any books from the Bible that he translated into the German vernacular:

From http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_%20canon.htm#a2:

    An obvious sign that someone has not read anything about Luther and the canon is the assertion, “Luther removed books from the Bible,” or “Luther removed books from the New Testament.” It is a simple historical fact that Luther’s translation of the Bible contained all of its books. Luther began translating the New Testament in 1521, and released a finished version in 1522. He published sections of the Old Testament as he finished them. He finished the entire Bible by 1534. During these years, various incomplete editions were released. Some Protestants might be surprised to learn that Luther also translated the Apocrypha. The editors of Luther’s Works explain, “In keeping with early Christian tradition, Luther also included the Apocrypha of the Old Testament. Sorting them out of the canonical books, he appended them at the end of the Old Testament with the caption, ‘These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.’”[9]

    Even after Luther finished his translation, he never ceased revising it. Phillip Schaff has pointed out, “He never ceased to amend his translation. Besides correcting errors, he improved the uncouth and confused orthography, fixed the inflections, purged the vocabulary of obscure and ignoble words, and made the whole more symmetrical and melodious. He prepared five original editions, or recensions, of his whole Bible, the last in 1545, a year before his death. This is the proper basis of all critical editions.”[10] Great care and work went into Luther’s Bible. This means that every book in the Bible was given great concern and attention. No book of the Bible was left un-translated. As Catholic writer John Todd observed, “The work was done with great method…”[11] Todd then relates this famous description:

    “Dr. M. Luther gathered his own Sanhedrin of the best persons available, which assembled weekly, several hours before supper in the doctor’s cloister, namely D. Johann Burgenhagen, D. Justus Jonas, D. Creuziger, M. Philippum, Mattheum Aurogallum; Magister Georg Roerer, the Korrektor was also present…M. Philipp brought the Greek text with him. D Creuziger a Chaldean Bible in addition to Hebrew. The professors had their rabbinical commentaries. D. Pommer also had the Latin text…The President submitted a text and permitted each to speak in turn and listened to what each had to say about the characteristics of the language or about the expositions of the doctors in earlier times.”[12]

    Thus, Luther’s Bible is not simply the result of Martin Luther: “Especially in his work on the Old Testament, Luther considered himself to be only one of a consortium of scholars at work on the project. He was convinced a translator should not work alone, for as he said, ‘the correct and appropriate words do not always occur to one person alone.’”[13] Rather than Luther expressing authoritarian power over the translation or removing books from the Bible by fiat, the facts of history show Luther involved other capable scholars. They worked throughout their lives to translate every book of the Bible, and even those books which “are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.”

    Those who assert Luther took books out of the Bible sometimes wrongly use this sentiment interchangeably with “Luther removed books from the canon.” For an example of such confusion, see the claims of this Catholic apologist here. If indeed Luther took books out of the Bible, then one expects to open Luther’s Bible and find certain books missing. One does not. Catholic apologists that equivocate in such a way should either define their arguments more carefully, or account for the fact that Luther included all the books in his Bible.

A common complaint many make about these Catholic vs. Protestant threads is that the same issues keep getting rehashed as if nothing is ever resolved one way or another. On points of doctrinal differences, we probably may never fully resolve to everyone's satisfaction. But can we at least cease from the ONE in particular? It is a historical and provable fact that Martin Luther did NOT remove books from the "his version" of the Bible. He did not. He even translated the "Apocryphal" books and included them - something ill informed people may emphatically deny, but they are wrong. Just as the King James Version of Bible included them, so did and does Luther's German translation. Can we at least put THIS argument to bed once and for all?

Speaking of bed....Good night!

537 posted on 01/08/2013 10:45:15 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Natural Law
And here I thought you at least were interested in academic pursuits! Warfield does far more than give his own Protestant bent to the development and acceptance of the New Testament. I doubt you read more than a few lines before you quit and resorted to an impulsive reaction to anything not “Catholic” based. Had you read the article, you would have noted that Warfield quotes numerous early church fathers and he doesn't say anything that can possibly be taken as against current Catholic views on the Bible. Tell me what he said that you consider “contravention to Catholic teaching”. Does he contravent individual Catholics’ false theories of there being no authoritative Scriptures until THE Catholic Church made them that way by proclaiming an "official" canon? Of course! But such a naive idea SHOULD be contravented and I doubt even Catholic theologians would disagree.
538 posted on 01/08/2013 10:55:29 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: editor-surveyor

oh, I’ve read further and your posts are only enlightening in the sense of revealing your utter lack of knowledge and propensity to get befuddled and defensive as in “You’re deluded.”


539 posted on 01/08/2013 11:58:36 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Syncro
"The simplicity of Christianity is really encapsulated in the Nicene Creed"
Pretty much.

Glad to hear it -- though most of the other non-catholic posters here, disagree with it, mostly about the Trinity...

540 posted on 01/08/2013 11:59:35 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Syncro

A person can become a follower of Christ, yes. They should believe that Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God, part of the Godhead, the ONE God, who came to save us. We are saved by His sacrifice, by the grace of God alone.


541 posted on 01/09/2013 12:01:14 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: metmom
daniel, do you have those stats on had about Catholics and priests views on contraception and abortion?

If ya stay with BOYS, then neither of those are a problem...

542 posted on 01/09/2013 12:06:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
Metmom: The simplicity of the gospel can be summed up in a few verses....
Acts 16:30-31 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

and Romans

metmom --> your first error is in calling these the Gospels. While they are inspired, they are the epistles of Paul, not the Gospels. Paul elaborates on the message of the gospel, focusing on one "area" at a time, while the Gospels, the words of Jesus Christ Himself are highly concentrated data

What does Jesus say saves us?


Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) --> note these are HIS own words

Jesus said it is not faith ALONE. We are saved by God's GRACE. Full-stop.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- it's never faith ALONE. Note that

  1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
  2. [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)<,li> [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)

no one is denying that one MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE. As shown above, Jesus Himself said that

He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
[U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3
[H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)

So, do listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject

The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.

543 posted on 01/09/2013 12:07:12 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: metmom
And, note that if you take Acts Acts 16:30-31 you should also refer to
  1. 1 Pet. 3:20-21: " It (Baptism )saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

  2. Note that in Acts 16:31 we are told to believe and you will be saved -- so Faith is definitely one of the things needed, yet as you see above and in my previous post, it is not ONLY faith. Remember -- James says "even the demons believe - and shudder" -- it is not faith ALONE that saves


544 posted on 01/09/2013 12:09:57 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
No "game" - you'd have us believe that when Christ said, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church" the two clauses had nothing to do with each other, so the burden is on you to say why Christ included the first clause.


Matthew 16:13-18

13. When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14. They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."


I see your problem: you must think there is ONLY the one verse that matters.

Taking things out of context has that effect.

It's not that the two CLAUSES are linked, but that two VERSES are.

545 posted on 01/09/2013 12:14:34 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
.....noone denies that!

What is wrong with a SYSTEM that ALLOWS such evil people to lead it?

546 posted on 01/09/2013 12:18:26 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
Why is that?

Had to take some time out for spouse beatings...

547 posted on 01/09/2013 12:19:26 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
there were many false “scripture” interpretations around at the time.

So THAT is where the SINLESSNESS of MAry started!

And her ASSUMPTION as well?

548 posted on 01/09/2013 12:22:00 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
...he be suspected until he is cleared of all suspicion.”

Ah....

Good ol' guilty 'til proven innocent: the basis for Western civilization.

549 posted on 01/09/2013 12:24:27 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: terycarl
\there are people on this and other threads who insist that you are automatically saved if you are born again....you are not.



9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

550 posted on 01/09/2013 12:29:18 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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