Posted on 03/10/2013 11:58:35 AM PDT by patlin
I said I like it best for its ease of understanding but I never said it was not without fault because it is, just as every English version of Scripture contains to a degree some fault, because they have all had the hands of biased men in their translation. And that is where the ‘helper’ of John 14-17 comes in!
“How can one call out a false prophet without pointing our his heresy?”
How about you follow the procedure give by Jesus in Matthew 18, and go quietly to him to explain to him your problem with his teaching. If he doesn’t listen, go with some of your brethren to establish at the mouth of several witnesses that he is recalcitrant. If that doesn’t work bring him before the entire church (but, of course, you consider the entire church heretical).
The fact is, your statement above is begging the question, since you assume Sunday is a heretical day for worship and rest, and therefore Hoggard is a false prophet. It is not established by anyone except a few that Sunday is indeed heretical.
I find Hoggard obnoxious for throwing muck at the Sabbath Keepers and I find you obnoxious for throwing capitalized muck the other direction.
Peter defined heresy in 2 Peter 2:1, where the word “even...” can mean, “that is to say...”. It had nothing to do with special days or observances, but with the 100% efficacy of Jesus Christ’s work in earth and in heaven.
I suspect you see yourself 100% dependent on Christ’s work on your behalf, right? And you are talking about the Christ of the Bible, not some gnostic fabrication, right? Then how can I condemn you for heresy. We can discuss differences about how we worship the only Lord who saves us. We can discuss the role of works and perhaps even differ on them. We can discuss a lot of things.
But it is an arrogance of power to thunder condemnation on others who share the same precious faith. It will have consequences. I suspect that you may not believe that.
I also do not believe the Words of Jesus to be ‘Talmud’ as He is the Word of God and only spoke the Word of the God the Father. And I also do not equate Paul’s teachings or for that matter, any of the others to be Talmud as they never taught anything but the pure Word of God as exemplified to them by the Word of God that put on flesh.
“We” don’t have the words of Jesus.. We have what some tell us are the words of Jesus..
MAybe he said them in the context presented and maybe he didn’t..
Those words are what they are.. a “listeners” account to the words of Jesus account of them.. not the actual words..
Maybe in context maybe not.. some words may have been missed or even omitted..
Not that anything negative happened to the words.. but that was always possible.. Jesus didn’t recommend reading anyway(according to lore).. since most couldn’t read..
Jesus said got to the Holy Spirit.. and left the Holy Spirit in charge of this planet..
Actually the Jews forbade writing down the “words” of God.. for many centuries.. The knowledge was told in storys and memorized.. Thats what BarMitzvah was for and about.. before it degraded..
People do not need the Holy SPirit anymore, they have the Bible.. as replacement idol.. After all if you have the Bible what do you need the Holy Spirit for.. to ask him questions, you think, you already know?.. Or to gossip about some intellectual minutia?.. or to legitimize some rite or ceremony?..
Christians of today are not much different than the average Jew of the past or currently.. Pagan God-Lore worshippers..
Which I suppose is the way it should be, here on this planet, to make that choice..
They don’t know the Holy Spirit any more than they know the history of Barry HAlf-White the President.. and could care less.. The HS is like the Easter Bunny.. mentioned with a raised eyebrow..
This thread basically revolves around Hoggard cursing the Adventists and patlin cursing Hoggard.
Thank God you need not be smart for salvation...
Otherwise most Mormons, Adventists, Catholics, and Protestants would be out of luck.. maybe even some Baptists will make “it”..
Some kids are very smart but others are easier to get along with..
The mentally challenged are usually quite joyful..
I’ve never heard of him either.
I don’t know. Ask the Holy Spirit; He said it in the Bible (Isaiah 64:4-9). - WE can THINK we’re pretty “good”, and be all wet.
Why are you dragging the King James Version into it?
Institute for Scripture Research? Founded by 8 guys in South Africa.
What great credentials........
Why does it scream "cult"?
It’s in the article at the bottom.
All that to say, “Mike Hoggard is not a Sabbatarian.”
If you’re advocating getting yourself under the Mosaic Law; good luck . . but, be prepared to keep it ALL . . every jot, every tittle, every dietary requirement, everything . . because if you break one jot, or one tittle; or ever have broken one jot or one tittle, you are then guilty of breaking the WHOLE LAW - as bad as any adulterer, pornographer or politician. God’s GRACE, through the blood of Christ is the ONLY way, the only door.
And I thought my lack of understanding was some type of early onset senility.
And yet Jesus read from the Scripures in the synagouge.
You assume I didn't do that. You assume WRONG!!!
you assume Sunday is a heretical day
I don't assume anything, Scripture clearly teaches that Sunday is NOT the day God commanded and it is NOT the day that was the custom of Jesus to follow. At least the early Roman church fathers were honest enough to admit they changed the day and at least Roman Catholicism is to this day honest enough to admit that Sunday is the “mark” of her authority. If only Christians who follow Roman doctrines such as calendars and appointed holy days could humble themselves to see this truth.
Heresy is anything that is NOT of God. Jesus only taught that which was of God, nothing more and nothing less. The only bible they had during the time of Jesus was that which is left of Matthew, so wouldn't it behoove us to actually know it so to walk it as Jesus walked it and commanded us to do likewise?
The part of the ‘Book that is left of Matthew is not Jewish as the “hoggard false prophets’ claim it is, everything left of Matthew is 100% pure God and His Word who put on flesh and became our Messiah and it is,
“profitable for teaching, for reproof, for setting straight, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of Elohim might be fitted, equipped for every good work.”
There is a very enlightening passage in Isaiah that the “church” tends to overlook when they spew their diatribes about how the ‘Jews” are blind. Well, how about the blindness that was placed upon the other half of Israel who was sent packing and became like the nations, the house of Ephraim? What does it say about those int he nations who look and act like gentiles but in His mercy He will again begin to gather them out of the nations and be a ‘light’ to the nations for Him once again? What about those gentile Israelites?
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel,
And this is directly what Paul was speaking of in,
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And what is Paul also alluding to here in regards to us only knowing in part?
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
The Living Oracles that were first given at Mt Sinai, to the original congregation of God that Messiah came to restore.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the congregation in the wilderness with the messenger which spoke to him in Mt Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the living oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
They went to serve God as they pleased, disregarding the Word of God that had spoken to them to obey the commands of the Father. There was no new ‘church’ formed, there is merely the old that is being rebuilt and renewed for His 2nd coming. The entire world has been invited to join the congregation of God through the blood of the Lamb, the ENTIRE WORLD, just as it has been from the beginning. Nothing new, just simple truth that the church fails to see because of her blindness due to her disobedience.
And with that said, we LOVE the people, but we hate the false doctrine so in love we speak the truth to expose the lies of the false doctrine. That is what John teaches us that brotherly love is, it is tough love, but it is His true love.
I have five words for you:
Christian Emergency Medical Care Providers
Explain to them that they cannot work on the day you think is inappropriate. They choose their own Sabbath, their own day for worship.
I've got another one for you:
Preachers
Are you saying they cannot work on the Sabbath?
That is wholly untrue. The years may have been changed, the months may have been changed, but the days remain, and a week is still a week... The seventh day is the Sabbath of YHWH. What you know as Saturday.
First of all, the commandment to keep the Sabbath originates in Eden, not in Moses. The Israelis were likewise given (reminded of) the Sabbath prior to the giving of the Law (see manna).
The sabbath day has been recorded by the Jews all the way back to Yeshua's time - And Yeshua made no correction... He, and all his apostles and disciples kept the weekly Sabbath and all of YHWH's Holy Days. Any argument prior to His time is made moot by His example, and confirmed by His disciples.
If you honor Sunday as the sabbath, you bow to Rome, not YHWH, as the Roman church freely admits. It is the basis of her power made real, as she declares.
There was no mention of Abraham and the earlier Patriarchs keeping a special day called the Sabbath...none that I saw in the Bible.
How then can Abraham have kept YHWH's commandments and statutes (Gen 26:5)?
How is it that Noah knew what 'clean' animals were?
Folks forget that the Order of Melchizedek precedes Arron, and Abraham.
And it is the fact that the writings of the Brit remain pure and true to the Tanakh that separates the Brit from the Talmud.
Strawman argument Alert! Warning, Warning, Warning!!!
Luk 14:1 Now it happened, as He went into the house of one of the rulers of the Pharisees to eat bread on the Sabbath, that they watched Him closely. 2 And behold, there was a certain man before Him who had dropsy. 3 And Jesus, answering, spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” 4 But they kept silent. And He took him and healed him, and let him go. 5 Then He answered them, saying, “Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?”
And yet Jesus read from the Scriptures in the synagogue.
If Jesus had to “read” then he was not “GOD”.. and not omniscient..
course a real “God” could do most anything, even read..
This argument is dumb.
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