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Pope Francis: The List (What Pope Francis Has Done)
Praytellblog ^ | March 30, 2013

Posted on 03/30/2013 2:42:00 PM PDT by NYer

What Pope Francis Has Done

· After his election, he came down from platform to greet the cardinal electors, rather than have them come up to his level to offer obedience.
· He appeared on the loggia without the red cape. (The BBC report, unconfirmed, is that he said to his aide, “No thank you, Monsignore. You put it on instead. Carnival time is over.”)
· In his greeting he referred to himself only as “bishop,” not as "pope."
· He referred to Benedict as “bishop emeritus,” not “pope emeritus.”
· He appeared without the stole, only putting it on to give the blessing. He then took it off in public (!), as if he couldn’t wait to get it off.
· He asked for the people’s blessing before he blessed them.
· He doesn’t wear red shoes.
· Or white stockings.
· Or cuff links.
· He rode the bus back to the residence with the cardinals rather than take the papal limousine.
· When he went to Mary Major to pray, he declined the papal Mercedes and took a Volkswagen Passat.
· On his way back from Mary Major, he stopped at his pre-conclave hotel to get his luggage and pay his own bill.
· Though he has taken possession of the apostolic palace, he continued to receive guests at St. Martha’s House rather than the palace.
· He drank Argentinian tea in public when receiving the Argentinian president – protocol is that popes are seen publicly consuming no food or drink except the Eucharist.
· His first Mass with cardinals was celebrated facing the people. (Pope Benedict started this way, but then did a “reform of the reform” and celebrated at the old high altar in the Sistine Chapel facing away from the congregation. Apparently this has been reversed.)
· He doesn’t chant the prayers, he recites them – but this could be because of an impaired lung or his singing ability.
· The wall of candles between celebrant and congregation, another of Pope Benedict’s “reform of the reform,” was moved away with three candles on each side of the altar.
· At his inauguration Mass, photos show that the candles were originally set up across the front of the altar, but by Mass time they had been moved to the side.
· The crucifix on the altar was a small one at his first Mass.
· He wore his own simple miter from Argentina, not the papal miter.
· He preached from the ambo without miter – rather like a simple parish priest. (The concelebrating cardinals gradually realized what was going on and had to remove the miters they had started to put on after the Gospel reading.)
· He brushed aside the prepared Latin homily and preached in Italian without text.
· In general, less lace.
· His hands are folded during the liturgy, not the pious (some say prissy) way with palms together.
· He didn’t genuflect at the Supper Narrative of the Eucharistic Prayer – is this really because of bad knees?
· He asked the cardinals not to wear their red cardinals’ robes, but black.
· He stood on the floor of the Clementine Hall to greet the cardinals rather than sit on the throne on the platform.
· He called them “brother cardinals” rather than “Lord cardinals.”
· He bent to kiss the ring of a cardinal who kissed his ring.
· At his meeting with over 5,000 journalists, after Archbishop Celli introduced him, he got up to walk over to him (popes don’t do that) and thanked him.
· He didn’t bless the journalists like popes do, since not all of them are Catholic or believers. Instead he prayed for them in silence, then simply said “God bless you.”
· After the meeting with journalists, he waved away the papal limousine and walked to the Vatican residence.
· When he saw the papal apartments he said, “There’s room for 300 people here. I don’t need all this space.” He has yet to move into the apartments, and some wonder whether he will.
· At Mass Sunday at the Vatican parish Sunday morning, he gave the Kiss of Peace to the deacons and Master of Ceremonies, not just the concelebrants. This is breaking the rules – but perhaps also a nice show of support for MC Marini, who must be reeling from all the sudden changes.
· The deacon didn’t kneel before Pope Francis for the blessing before the gospel (as they did for John Paul II and Benedict XVI).
· He doesn’t wear the dalmatic. Pope Benedict revived the practice, not foreseen in the reformed liturgical books, of wearing this deacon’s vestment under his papal vestments.
· He doesn’t distribute Communion as the missal foresees of the celebrant, but is seated while others do so.
· He listened to the words of the Patriarch of Constantinople seated on an armchair rather than the throne that is customarily used in the Clementine Hall. When he thanked Bartholomew I, he called him “my brother Andrew.”
· He has simplified his coat of arms, keeping the miter rather than tiara (as Benedict also did) but removing the pallium from it.
· He is wearing a second-hand pallium.
· He has chosen a simple ring, re-using a ring once made for Paul VI’s secretary.
· Pope Benedict recently began wearing a fanon under the pallium for big feasts, but Francis did not wear it as the inauguration Mass.
· He undid Pope Benedict’s decision that all the cardinals would come up to pay obedience to the Pope at his inauguration, and decided that six representatives would be enough.
· Rather than being seated while they came up to pay him obedience, he stood and greeted them informally.
· Contrary to protocol, he has given a phone call to the Jesuit superior general, the people holding a prayer vigil outside the Buenos Aires cathedral, and the guy in Argentina who sold him his daily paper (to cancel his delivery).
· When he met the Jesuit general, he apologized for not keeping protocol and insisted on being treated like any other Jesuit with the “tu” informal address, rather than “Your Holiness” or “Holy Father.”
· He is not celebrating Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord’s Supper in St. Peter’s Basilica (he hasn’t yet taken possession of his cathedral, John Lateran), but in a juvenile prison.
· He celebrated an unannounced Mass at St. Martha’s with hotel workers, Vatican gardeners, and people who clean St. Peter’s square. He showed up before Mass and sat in the back row to pray a bit.
· In his official photograph, he signs his name simply “Franciscus” without “PP” (“pontifex pontificum”) used by previous popes.




TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Worship
KEYWORDS: bartholomew; orthodox
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1 posted on 03/30/2013 2:42:00 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...
It has not even been a month since his election and the blogosphere has gone wild with interpretations, conjectures, charitable excuses and callous accusations. Two days ago, Fr. John Zuhlsdorf tried to temper traditionalists saying:

I think what Pope Francis is up to is trying to project, re-project, is an image of the Church as compassionate.  He is trying to help people remember (or learn for the first time) that she is actually all about compassion, charity in its truest form.

Fr. Z's message, today, is Thank you, Pope Francis! - In two weeks Pope Francis has done more to promote Summorum Pontificum than Pope Benedict did since the day he promulgated it. (Essentially driving catholics to the TLM).

Meanwhile, George Weigel, one of hte leading authorities on the Catholic Church in the world, puts forward:

Evangelical Catholicism is the form of Catholicism that is being born from a process of deep Catholic reform that began with Pope Leo XIII, that continued in the great Catholic renewal movements of the mid-20th century, and that reached a high point of ecclesiastical drama at Vatican II, which has now been given an authoritative interpretation by John Paul II and Benedict XVI—the Church is to understand itself as a communion (communio) of disciples in mission, formed by friendship with the Lord Jesus Christ and by an ongoing immersion in both Word and Sacrament.

Interestingly enough, Weigel believes that, at this juncture in preparing catechumens, "Every Catholic parish in America should junk its RCIA and adult education programs for a year and adopt [Fr. Robert Barron's] “Catholicism” instead.

One final comment to digest comes from an article I have not posted to the forum.

Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople has told reporters that he sees a possibility for reunion between the Orthodox and Roman churches, even if it “will probably not happen during my life.”

snip

Speaking in Turkey after his return, the Orthodox leader said that he saw a new attitude at the Vatican, which heightened his optimism about the prospects for restoring Christian unity. He said that “there is a possibility for the next generations to see the churches of the East and West.”
Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople foresees reunion of Christian East and West

There have been many theories put forward as to why, at this moment in Catholic Church history, Pope Benedict XVI chose to step down. Prior to the conclave, he extended his fidelity to his successor. It seems to me that if we truly believe that the Holy Spirit is at work in this process, then our fidelity also follows. At the very minimum, we owe Pope Francis the opportunity to define his papacy.

Would appreciate your thoughts. BTW - from what I can see, this blog is far from traditionalist.

A Blessed Easter to all of you!

2 posted on 03/30/2013 2:43:39 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Pinging you, especially to the comments made by Fr. Z.


3 posted on 03/30/2013 2:50:18 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer
Fr. Z's message, today, is Thank you, Pope Francis! - In two weeks Pope Francis has done more to promote Summorum Pontificum than Pope Benedict did since the day he promulgated it. (Essentially driving catholics to the TLM).

If you read his blog post under that title, you'll realize this is at best a back-handed "Thank you." Obviously Fr. Z is flustered and perplexed by the Mandatum madness and is taking pains to paint it in the best of lights.

4 posted on 03/30/2013 2:57:00 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM ("Hey, I'm just being humble. You know, like Pope Francis. Stop being a Pharisee.")
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To: NYer

None of these things in themselves bother me (honestly, I don’t care if the pope is seen eating or drinking regular food and drink in public!). What I worry about is that this pope will be so meek, so humble, so non-traditional in his treatment of the office that he might delight people with his everyday commonness but will actually weaken respect to the office he holds.

We’ll just have to wait and see.


5 posted on 03/30/2013 3:07:50 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; RobbyS; sitetest
If you read his blog post under that title, you'll realize this is at best a back-handed "Thank you."

Yes, I understood that, hence my comment "Essentially driving catholics to the TLM". However, Fr. Z's initial impression is also posted above. Care to comment on this?

I think what Pope Francis is up to is trying to project, re-project, is an image of the Church as compassionate. He is trying to help people remember (or learn for the first time) that she is actually all about compassion, charity in its truest form.

6 posted on 03/30/2013 3:21:43 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: vladimir998

I don’t see him as meek. In fact these are signs, to me, that he might be the man with common sense—and with a spine.

We shall see.


7 posted on 03/30/2013 3:24:01 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?)
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To: NYer

Yes, that’s a good point. (How did the GOP attempt to wrap themselves in compassionate conservatism work out with the MSM? Will it work for PFI?)


8 posted on 03/30/2013 3:27:38 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM ("Hey, I'm just being humble. You know, like Pope Francis. Stop being a Pharisee.")
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To: vladimir998

Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 12:9, “ But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.”

I submit to you this Pope is a man after God’s heart. He is a precious priest of the church. He is deemphasizing himself, papal power so the message of Christ can penetrate, in the spirit & tradition of Paul and Peter. I find him inspiring myself.


9 posted on 03/30/2013 3:30:22 PM PDT by pithyinme (Oh great 4 more years of crap to wade through....)
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To: NYer

I’m sorry so many people, who are probably perfectly nice people, are in such a fuss. It hardly makes for a happy Easter.


10 posted on 03/30/2013 3:36:39 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
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To: All
Picky, picky, picky.

Buncha whiners.

11 posted on 03/30/2013 3:51:56 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: NYer

I’ve been pretty disgusted by all the nitpicking “traditionalist” attacks on the Pope, as well as the arrogant tone of some of the comments. It reminds me of the Jews complaining that Jesus was healing on the Sabbath - they, who couldn’t heal anybody no matter what day of the week it was!

Personally, I think the TLM folks have lost a lot of friends with this, and I even noticed a couple of comments on Fr. Z’s blog from people who said they had been sort of interested in the TLM but after the display of hatred against Pope Francis ... Forget it, they were going back to the Novus Ordo and just trying to improve it.

I don’t think Pope Francis is going to “drive people” to the EF (old rite) but just the reverse, mostly because of the display of uncharitability and pride that has boiled out of that group. Not to mention hysteria: I don’t think the Pope has really done anything very shocking. He is clearly orthodox, very devout, a man of great prayer and charity, intelligent, and aware of the importance of getting the Gospel message through the walls that we have built around it. His masses are correct and reverent. When I saw him in Rome on Palm Sunday I was impressed by his seriousness, although he is also a excellent, affecting preacher and I liked that too.

And I say this as someone who thought BXVI was wonderful. Btw, I wonder how many of the things Francis is doing might actually be with the support of BXVI. I think Benedict really felt trapped by the bureaucracy and remoteness of life in the Vatican and didn’t feel he could accomplish anything more but knew that the world needed the Faith now more than ever. Maybe he told Francis to just go for it!


12 posted on 03/30/2013 3:54:48 PM PDT by livius
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To: Alex Murphy

I’m not a Catholic and I don’t really care what the Pope does but I am rather amused at the silly things that some people find important, things that really have nothing to do with the salvation of sinners.


13 posted on 03/30/2013 4:13:36 PM PDT by Past Your Eyes (Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.)
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To: Tax-chick

I think the new Pope is fantastic, but then I tend to assume that a man almost 4 times my age might, just possibly, be smarter than I am.


14 posted on 03/30/2013 4:13:51 PM PDT by Anoreth (It's not a great party until someone loses rank.)
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To: All
Please keep in mind that he did not renew the contracts for various Vatican positions. He is going to shake things up, but in a quiet manner. People are going to be shaking their heads going; "What the heck just happened?"

I can also see that he is going to be giving the Swiss guards fits as well. They take the job of protecting him very seriously.

15 posted on 03/30/2013 4:18:23 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: Anoreth

I couldn’t be happier. Oh, rats, I was going to tell Father Johannes in Ethiopia how pleased we are with the new Pope, but I forgot. (Probably had to do with Sally hanging over my shoulder.) Well, next time I email him.

Being old doesn’t make a person wise, but it sure seems like Pope Francis has more on the ball than I do. A main reason I joined the Catholic Church was that I learned what Pope John Paul II was doing and teaching, and I said, “Deleted expletive, *forehead smack*, he’s right and I’m wrong.” I think Pope Francis is going to have that effect on a lot of people.


16 posted on 03/30/2013 4:19:37 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
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To: livius
I’ve been pretty disgusted by all the nitpicking “traditionalist” attacks on the Pope, as well as the arrogant tone of some of the comments.

Let's face it most of them won't be happy until the kneelers are removed so we can all have our knees on the concrete, and the entire Mass is in Latin

17 posted on 03/30/2013 4:20:42 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: NYer

Thank you for such a careful list.
I’d like to respectfully suggest my viewpoint...
I do not know if I am correct in this or not, but...

1. I prefer to focus on the MESSAGE Pope Francis is trying to give us, as I believe many of the items you listed may have been intentional to communicate a message to us....
(I believe that some of the other items may have been unintentional, after all he is brand new in the office!!!!)

2. I believe the message has to do with compassion (or, better perhaps, sharing genuine love with our fellow human beings).

3. I believe this is a very important message, central to the Judeo-Christian faith tradition....

4. Along these lines, Jesus (who was an observant Jew his entire earthly life) did level some rather pointed criticisms of those “religious” people (particularly some of those in high ecclesiastical posts) who appeared to emphasize and perhaps measure their righteousness more in terms of their adherence (and display) of proper traditional observances ... to, as I read scripture, the possible detriment of the central message of God’s teaching to the Jewish (and now Christian) people: once again, that of “agape” or compassion or love of our fellow human beings.

5. To the extent that Pope Francis is upsetting the “established order” of received observances or rituals, I would dare venture that this may be intentional .. and that he may consider himself in the tradition of the great Jewish prophets and Jesus himself ... who questioned or reinterpreted several received ritual observances or interpretations of God’s law....as part of his teaching ministry. (Indeed, he did these things at some risk to his person...)

6. At this very early stage in his pontificate, I wish to give Pope Francis the “benefit of the doubt” as he appears to be taking his role as a teacher of the flock, seriously. I respect tradition and also very much respect those that are concerned it be maintained. Tradition definitely has its place (and it itself can teach us, too, if we are open to seeing its messages). At the same time, what Pope Francis is doing appears (to me, so far) to also be quite positive ... so far... let’s give the man a few months anyway to see how he does, ok? At the very least, I would just suggest he hasn’t done anything so extremely grievous yet that anybody has cause to lose much sleep.

Yet, anyway..
Just my thoughts. A prophet is seldom honored much in his own house or land... we know this. The reason is also quite clear, it is because he often feels he has to rock the established boat, tradition, ritual, or power structure a bit... to at least get attention to his message.

So far, this one writer is quite willing to give Pope Francis the benefit of the doubt... and I am looking forward to seeing, hearing more of what he has to share with us. He might be doing something very, very good, and Christian.

We will see.


18 posted on 03/30/2013 4:20:48 PM PDT by faithhopecharity (()
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To: verga
I can also see that he is going to be giving the Swiss guards fits as well. They take the job of protecting him very seriously.

Well, since he's shaking things up and the Swiss Guard takes their job very seriously, I suggest ditching the striped pantaloons. Marching about looking like a Ronald McDonald convention is distinctly unserious, and all that frippery has got to have a negative effect on response speed and mobility.

19 posted on 03/30/2013 4:24:45 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: pithyinme

I’d like to see the next American President do likewise and dismantle the imperial trappings piled on by King Barry.


20 posted on 03/30/2013 4:28:19 PM PDT by Argus
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To: NYer

This list is from praytell for goodness sake. It’s like asking the democrat party chairman what the republicans are concerned about.


21 posted on 03/30/2013 4:38:07 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: livius
Personally, I think the TLM folks have lost a lot of friends with this, and I even noticed a couple of comments on Fr. Z’s blog from people who said they had been sort of interested in the TLM but after the display of hatred against Pope Francis ... Forget it, they were going back to the Novus Ordo and just trying to improve it.

This is my take as well. I have to admit, I was (and remain) leery of a Pope who pays his own hotel bill and cancels his own newspaper subscription - doesn't he have more important things to do? To me such overt signs of regular guy-ness dredge up images of an incompetent Jimmy Carter. However, all this other stuff that RadTrads are getting worked up about don't bother me at all. I pray Pope Francis will be able to be a strong leader and not one who will be giving away the Catholic Panama Canal.

22 posted on 03/30/2013 4:41:38 PM PDT by old and tired
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To: vladimir998

Just don’t forget to pray.


23 posted on 03/30/2013 4:44:03 PM PDT by tiki
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To: RegulatorCountry
Well, since he's shaking things up and the Swiss Guard takes their job very seriously, I suggest ditching the striped pantaloons. Marching about looking like a Ronald McDonald convention is distinctly unserious, and all that frippery has got to have a negative effect on response speed and mobility.

They only wear those for ceremonial duties. the rest of the time they have either a military uniform they wear or they dress like U. S> Secret service agents.

24 posted on 03/30/2013 4:46:46 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: RegulatorCountry

We like the uniforms. So do the Swiss Guards themselves. They only wear those for ceremonies and guard duty at a few places. Otherwise they wear plain clothes and blend it rather well.


25 posted on 03/30/2013 4:51:44 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: RegulatorCountry

I’d like to see you charge into a pike phalanx, no matter how they were dressed ;-).


26 posted on 03/30/2013 5:07:22 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
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To: verga

I’m curious that so many seem to view them rather like Navy SEALs or the Israeli Mossad, an elite force, when the photos I’ve seen are pretty much teenaged boys, no sense of their being hardened or potentially lethal at all, they could be a marching band.

Is there a ceremonial group for the young and a defense group with older guards who have received extensive military training or something?

I’m obviously an outsider but that would unnerve me, seeing as how your Pope Francis appears to have become something of a polarizing figure fairly quickly. I don’t grasp all the uproar, the foot washing is a very appropriate, humbling gesture for a Christian in position of authority to me, so I approve of it. Then, there’s the whole Ann Barnhardt thing, I saw that thread, Catholics calling him satan for not genuflecting.

There’s cause for concern, imho. So, I hope you’re right.


27 posted on 03/30/2013 5:13:03 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Vermont Lt; NYer; Dr. Brian Kopp; vladimir998; Tax-chick; Campion; pithyinme; Alex Murphy; ...
For those who would like to read what Pope Francis has written, plenty of reading material will be available in April: Ignatius Press to Release Four Books by Cardinal Bergoglio (Pope Francis)

All four are available IN SPANISH for ordering now.

The first two will be combined into one volume and will be available IN ENGLISH sometime in April.

Man, Ignatius Press moves fast!!

28 posted on 03/30/2013 5:13:24 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Pray for me, and I shall for you and all your friends, that we may merrily meet in heaven. - T. More)
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To: Tax-chick

Me charging into a pike phalanx is nothing anyone needS to worry about, lol. Someone you might need to worry about isn’t going to do that either, though.


29 posted on 03/30/2013 5:18:27 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

They’re Swiss. They’re tougher than you’re giving them credit for.

Ever look at the Secret Service agents who guard the U.S. President? A lot of them don’t look like much. All of them are willing to take a bullet for the president, however. That’s what counts.


30 posted on 03/30/2013 5:23:50 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

They’re Swiss? What a coincidence, I have some Swiss ancestry too. Not Catholic, though. Moravian, from Canton Basel. Fled persecution, went more or less underground for decades on the estate of a sympathetic Count, eventually forced out there too, fled to Rotterdam, boarded a ship for the colony of Pennsylvania, then walked to North Carolina, arriving in 1753. Still here.


31 posted on 03/30/2013 5:33:39 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

You wrote:

“They’re Swiss? What a coincidence, I have some Swiss ancestry too. Not Catholic, though.”

No, they were Catholic. Then they became something else.

“Moravian, from Canton Basel. Fled persecution, went more or less underground for decades on the estate of a sympathetic Count, eventually forced out there too, fled to Rotterdam, boarded a ship for the colony of Pennsylvania, then walked to North Carolina, arriving in 1753. Still here.”

It’s a shame they never discovered the truth. To suffer for a falsehood like Protestant sectarianism is so unnecessary and wasteful. If the Moravians had anything good, they started to lose it long before the time of Mary Matz.


32 posted on 03/30/2013 5:46:41 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: RegulatorCountry; Anoreth

Petunia’s not going to charge any pikemen; I don’t think that comes up even in Somalia!

As for the Swiss Guards, they’re not the Mossad or the SEALS, but they’re a trained, professional police force and bodyguards. Nobody is untouchable, but they’ll provide all reasonable security.

Pope Benedict was an easy client in recent years, because his health didn’t permit too much movement.


33 posted on 03/30/2013 5:52:56 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Anoreth

How nice. I should put my Spanish to the test. We could get “Puente de los asesinos,” too.


34 posted on 03/30/2013 5:56:14 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
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To: vladimir998

Still the same old Vlad I see, lol. Their persecution wasn’t always at the hands of the Catholic Church but it was invariably at the hands of a State Church. Appreciate that and maybe the claws won’t be coming out quite so often. No church is perfect, not even yours. A religion assuming the trappings and authority of a nation-state does create problems. History shows us this. So does the Bible.


35 posted on 03/30/2013 6:07:38 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

you wrote:

“Their persecution wasn’t always at the hands of the Catholic Church but it was invariably at the hands of a State Church.”

Actually it would invariably be at the hands of the state if anything.

“No church is perfect, not even yours.”

The Church is without spot of wrinkle in all that matters - if you believe Jesus. The people in it? Far less than perfect.


36 posted on 03/30/2013 6:29:21 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
I'd love to debate with you Vlad but this honestly isn't the thread for it.

I've always wondered why a small “sect” like the the Moravians are such an apparent bee in your bonnet, though. Does it have anything to do with their having Eastern Orthodox origins, suppressed by Hapsburg nobles installed by force at the direction of Rome?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravians_(religion)

That's a question for another time and another thread. Quite the inconvenient curiosity, that the first “Protestant” church predated Martin Luther by a considerable amount of time and arose via the Orthodox, isn't it?

37 posted on 03/30/2013 7:06:51 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

You wrote:

“I’d love to debate with you Vlad but this honestly isn’t the thread for it.”

But then you’ll do it anyway, right?

“I’ve always wondered why a small “sect” like the the Moravians are such an apparent bee in your bonnet, though.”

I think you’re imagining things. There are no bees in my bonnet, and no bonnet as a matter of fact.

“Does it have anything to do with their having Eastern Orthodox origins, suppressed by Hapsburg nobles installed by force at the direction of Rome?”

The Moravians have no “Eastern Orthodox origins” - except perhaps in the mad ravings of modern revisionists. The Moravians have origins perhaps in the Hussites - who also have “Eastern Orthodox origins” but only in the minds of raving modern revisionists.

“That’s a question for another time and another thread. Quite the inconvenient curiosity, that the first “Protestant” church predated Martin Luther by a considerable amount of time and arose via the Orthodox, isn’t it?”

No, since it never happened. No Protestant church predates Luther for the following reasons:

1) None of them are “churches”. There are only sects among the Protestants.
2) The two ecclesial bodies, the two sects, among the Protestants today which predate the Protestants in any way are the Hussites and the Waldensians. Both groups went through such massive changes because of Protestant contacts that they have little or nothing to do with their pre-1517 ancestors. The Italian Waldensians, for instance, are Methodists today. The Hussites and their descendents abandoned their belief in Utraquism as a necessity of salvation.
3) Neither group had any connection with Eastern Orthodoxy. Such a connection is a modern invention. Such inventions are common among Protestants who lack any real history predating 1517. Thus, they have created a fraudulent history to salve their consciences. You can see this with Carroll’s Trail of Blood which is a completely ahistorical and unhistorical and imaginative product.


38 posted on 03/30/2013 7:32:53 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
The Italian Waldensians, for instance, are Methodists today

The Waldensians who left their historic home in the Cottian Alps for religious freedom in the late nineteenth century aren't. Their settlement is just up the road from me, about an hour away. Beautiful stone church. They obviously cherish it.

39 posted on 03/30/2013 7:39:11 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

You wrote:

“The Waldensians who left their historic home in the Cottian Alps for religious freedom in the late nineteenth century aren’t.”

But they’re still Protestants nonetheless for they abandoned their own previous beliefs for Protestantism. Just read Euen Cameron’s The Reformation of the Heretics: The Waldenses of the Alps, 1480-1580 (Oxford Historical Monographs) to see what I’m talking about.

“Their settlement is just up the road from me, about an hour away. Beautiful stone church. They obviously cherish it.”

A shame they didn’t cherish more of their own beliefs dating back to the 12th century. Instead they threw them away just like they did orthodoxy.


40 posted on 03/30/2013 7:59:04 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: RegulatorCountry
I’m curious that so many seem to view them rather like Navy SEALs or the Israeli Mossad, an elite force, when the photos I’ve seen are pretty much teenaged boys, no sense of their being hardened or potentially lethal at all, they could be a marching band.

Not sure about Navy SEALS, I am thinking more like Royal Marines or U.S. Marines. I think they appear so young because of their fair complexion. My understanding is hat they re all part of the Swiss Army and are hand picked for the duty.

I’m obviously an outsider but that would unnerve me, seeing as how your Pope Francis appears to have become something of a polarizing figure fairly quickly. I don’t grasp all the uproar, the foot washing is a very appropriate, humbling gesture for a Christian in position of authority to me, so I approve of it. Then, there’s the whole Ann Barnhardt thing, I saw that thread, Catholics calling him satan for not genuflecting.

How much of this is real and how much is media hype about him being polarizing?

I have not seen the thread about Ann Barnhardt or the not genuflecting so I real can't comment.

41 posted on 03/30/2013 7:59:34 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: vladimir998
I'm curious, what is the source contradicting Moravians' own claim of having origins in the Orthodox? The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't contradict them as you have:

HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT UNITAS FRATRUM (1457-1722) The Bohemian Brethren are a link in a chain of sects beginning with Wyclif (1324-84) and coming down to the present day. The ideas of the Englishman found favour with Hus, and Bohemia proved a better soil for their growth than England. Both Wyclif and Hus were moved by a sincere desire to reform the Church of their times; both failed and, without intending it, became the fathers of new heretical bodies - the Lollards and the Hussites. The former were persecuted out of existence in England by Catholic rulers; the latter prospered in Bohemia, thanks to royal and national support. The burning of John Hus at the stake for his stubborn adherence to the condemed doctrines of Wyclif (at Constance, 6 July, 1415) was considered an insult to the faith of the Bohemian nation, which, since its first conversion to Christianity, had never swerved from the truth. The University of Prague came boldly forward to vindicate the man and his doctrines; the party which hitherto had worked at reforming the Church from within now rejected the Church's authority and became the Hussite sect...

42 posted on 03/30/2013 8:18:36 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: verga

A reasonable reply. Thank you.


43 posted on 03/30/2013 8:21:25 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry
A reasonable reply. Thank you.

I did find one thread about Traditionalists and the new Pope. It seems that some is just hype from the media trying to stir trouble, and there are some Radical Traditionalists that are not happy with him. I think this number is very small and I am certain that a certain percentage would be unhappy even if he brought back full scale inquisitions and had the entire Mass said in Latin.

44 posted on 03/30/2013 9:14:57 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: RegulatorCountry

You wrote:

“I’m curious, what is the source contradicting Moravians’ own claim of having origins in the Orthodox?”

First, produce an actual claim from the Moravians that they were never Catholic but were instead Eastern Orthodox. Until you do that I have no reason to believe you can validly claim that they claim that.

“The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn’t contradict them as you have:”

I think you need to read the sources you quote more closely:

“HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT UNITAS FRATRUM (1457-1722)...”

Thus, we see already that the old Catholic Encyclopedia is clearly referencing a group that could only be Catholic if it started in Bohemia in 1457.

“The Bohemian Brethren are a link in a chain of sects beginning with Wyclif (1324-84) and coming down to the present day.”

Wyclif - a Catholic who embraced heresy. Not Eastern Orthodoxy.

“The ideas of the Englishman found favour with Hus, and Bohemia proved a better soil for their growth than England.”

Hus - a Catholic who embraced heresy. Not Eastern Orthodoxy.

Produce a source from the Moravians themselves, preferably from an official Moravian source.


45 posted on 03/30/2013 9:21:33 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: verga

There was a pretty wild one here on FR, there actually were calls for a return to the Inquisition. Maybe it was deleted.


46 posted on 03/30/2013 9:28:42 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: vladimir998
I'll refer you back to the initial link I provided, amply sourced, with the key excerpt being as follows:

The movement that was to become the Moravian Church was started by Jan Hus (English: John Huss) in the late 14th century. Hus objected to some of the practices of the Roman Catholic Church and wanted to return the church in Bohemia and Moravia to what were the practices in these territories when it had been Eastern Orthodox: liturgy in the language of the people (i.e. Czech), having lay people receive communion in both kinds (bread and wine - that is, in Latin, communio sub utraque specie), married priests, and eliminating indulgences and the idea of Purgatory. Evidence of their roots in Eastern Orthodoxy can be seen today in their form of the Nicene Creed, which like Orthodox Churches, does not include the filioque clause. In rejecting indulgences, Jan Hus can be said to have adopted a doctrine of justification by grace through faith alone; in doing so, the Moravians arguably became the first Protestant church.[2][3]

47 posted on 03/30/2013 9:31:46 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: NYer

Pope Francis is a Jesuit. For better or worse, Jesuits operate in a different mode from what is common. I pray that God will grant him the grace to accomplish whatever good he is meant to accomplish. It is too early to get an idea of what is actually going to go on in terms of curial reform.

Ed Peter’s post on fathers made a great deal of sense. http://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/popes-like-dads-dont-have-a-choice-in-the-matter/

In the end, God is in control.


48 posted on 03/30/2013 10:03:06 PM PDT by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: NYer

I’m likin’ this guy more every day! :o)


49 posted on 03/30/2013 10:22:25 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Anoreth

Love the tagline!


50 posted on 03/30/2013 10:25:38 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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