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What Do Americans Really Think About the Bible?
barna.org ^ | March 27, 2013 | barna.org

Posted on 04/02/2013 8:21:11 AM PDT by daniel1212

...The Bible’s Place in Society
If the Bible has such resonance with television viewers, then it stands to reason the awareness of the Christian Scriptures is high in America. And indeed, nearly nine out of ten (88%) Americans actually own a Bible. Despite such a high number, that’s declined since 1993, though only slightly, when 92% of Americans owned a Bible. On average, American Bible owners have 3.5 Bibles in their home, and one-quarter of Bible owners (24%) have six or more.

In terms of demographic breakdowns, about eight out of ten (79%) Mosaics (people aged 18-28) own a Bible, compared with nearly all (95%) Elders (who are ages 65-plus). And while it might not be surprising that religiously devoted Christians own Bibles, the study finds that six out of ten Americans (59%) who have no faith or who identify as atheists own a Bible. Despite many aspects of society that are secularizing, penetration of Scripture remains high in 2013.

Add to that, eight out of ten (80%) Americans identify the Bible as sacred literature, without any prompting from interviewers. That proportion has also dipped from 2011, when 85% of respondents affirmed this perspective of the Bible. Americans’ overall belief in Scripture’s sacredness may also explain why almost two-thirds (61%) of American adults also say they wish they read the Bible more.

Compared to the large number of people believing the Bible to be sacred, fewer than one out of ten Americans (8%) said they thought the Koran was sacred, and only half that many (4%) identified the Torah as holy literature. Perhaps connected to the swelling ranks of the religiously unaffiliated, one out of eight adults (12%) do not regard any book to be sacred text. This percentage has nearly doubled in two years, when the proportion was 7%.

Does Society Need the Bible?
So, how does the broad base of the Bible’s awareness play out on the national stage of public opinion? For many, the moral stature of the country as well as political realities are determined based upon Bible engagement. Just over three-quarters (77%) believe “the values and morals of America are declining.” And when asked what is to blame for this “decline,” one-third of Americans (32%) attribute that shift to a lack of Bible reading. This is a greater percentage of people than point to the “negative influence of media” (29%) or “corruption from corporate greed” (25%). Similarly, nearly six out of ten adults (56%) believe the Bible has too little influence in American society—that’s more than four times the percentage of people who think the Bible has too much influence (13%).

However, the number of American adults who are friendly–or, those who believe the Bible to be inspired and infallible but don’t read the Bible as often—has gone down (from 45% to 39%). Those who are neutral—the people who rarely read the Bible and believe the Bible to be inspired but containing errors—numbered 25% of American adults in 2011, and is about the same in 2013 (23%). The biggest jump of any group are those American adults who are antagonistic to the Bible, meaning they believe the Bible to just be a book of stories and teachings written by men, and they rarely or never read the Bible. That group stood at one in ten adults (10%) in 2011. In 2013, their ranks have grown to 17% of all U.S. adults.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: americans; bible
See full article here

Other relevant stats:


1 posted on 04/02/2013 8:21:11 AM PDT by daniel1212
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To: daniel1212

As with most folks, I drifted far far away from my religious upbringing, but with maturity, have returned.

Whether or not you believe the stories, reading the bible reveals a rich history of peoples attempting to discern and do good.

Reading the NYT reveals a sordid history of ill-educated clowns incapable of providing moral guidance to a rabbit or running a kool-aid stand.


2 posted on 04/02/2013 8:31:58 AM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: daniel1212

I don’t put a lot of stock into what Barna has to say, but if the stats are even remotely close, it’s very revealing.


3 posted on 04/02/2013 8:32:12 AM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: daniel1212
Likely to be slammed here, but the problem is not the Bible in and of itself. It is those who persist in defining it as God and then shelving it when it finished reading. The Bible is Sacred, but then so is the person reading it. Is not the very Spirit of Jesus in each person?

Jhn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created male and female created he them.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. Every living person was given the light.

Jhn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood [fn] it.

Luk 11:35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness.

Therefore, by the very words of Christ himself, the Spirit of God is clearly not only in the Bible.

I incidentally watched the entire “The Bible” series on the History Channel. Sure, it did not follow the storyline contained in the Bible word for word, but the MESSAGE WAS NOT LOST. Which in my opinion was more important.

4 posted on 04/02/2013 8:43:17 AM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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To: daniel1212
...only half that many (4%) identified the Torah as holy literature...

Oops... Given that the Torah (whether you define it as the Pentateuch, first 5 books of the Bible; or as the entire Old Testament, the Tenakh) is part of the Bible - which 80% reported as believing to be sacred - I don't quite understand this response ("4% identified the Torah as holy literature")...

5 posted on 04/02/2013 8:43:53 AM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: daniel1212

Yesterday on Rush, we heard some alarming statistics on children being born out of wedlock or otherwise fatherless in the US. This will be a harbinger of things to come. There’s no escaping it. What are men to do about it? Find a girl, settle down...live happily ever-after or die trying? Not anymore...Not with this “War on Women” going on out there./s


6 posted on 04/02/2013 8:47:47 AM PDT by equaviator
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To: El Cid
This is typical of Barna.

Most Americans do not know that the Torah is the first five books of the Bible.

All this poll tells us is that 4% knew what the word "Torah" means.

It does not truly reflect a substantive view of the Torah.

Barna special sauce.

7 posted on 04/02/2013 8:54:30 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: daniel1212

Not surprised about the small number of Catholics as Biblical Literalists. Catholocism is not a Biblically Literal religion. In fact, one of the more famous statements (and of course, controversial) by John Cardinal Newman is “Biblical literalism is the mother of all heresy.” It is not how we roll. We have four interpretations of Scripture: Historical, Analogical, Ethical, and Anagogical. Literal would get in the way of that.


8 posted on 04/02/2013 9:20:29 AM PDT by Seraphicaviary (St. Michael is gearing up. The angels are on the ready line.)
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To: daniel1212

Read this for an example of the appalling ignorance of basic Bible in Big Media:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/clay-waters/2013/04/01/ny-times-mortifying-easter-error-resurrection-heaven-jesus-three-days-a#ixzz2PGPUbCXM


9 posted on 04/02/2013 9:29:23 AM PDT by DManA
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To: El Cid

“Given that the Torah (whether you define it as the Pentateuch, first 5 books of the Bible; or as the entire Old Testament, the Tenakh) is part of the Bible - which 80% reported as believing to be sacred - I don’t quite understand this response (”4% identified the Torah as holy literature”)”

These 4% like the IDEA of considering the Bible sacred, but never took the time to learn even the most rudimentary basics.

I teach Bible Classes to incarcerated juvenile girls. They often start their sentences with “ibeleivethebibleanallthatbut” and then they proceed to tell me why it’s teachings are never going to change them. Many people think saying they believe God or the Bible is some kind of magic to get them into heaven. But their lives clearly show they trust nothing about our God or His Word.


10 posted on 04/02/2013 9:37:16 AM PDT by keats5 (Not all of us are hypnotized.)
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To: fwdude
Well, if you like "revealing stats," see here
11 posted on 04/02/2013 9:37:59 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Da Coyote

Good thing you weren’t raised as a Muslim or even worse, a Mormon...


12 posted on 04/02/2013 9:49:08 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: BornToBeAmerican
"Is not the very Spirit of Jesus in each person?"

No. The Holy Spirit is only in those who have been born again and are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Yes, we are created in God's image but that does not mean we are all indwelt with the Holy Spirit. None of the verses you cite referes to the Holy Spirit which is the third person of the Godhood.

13 posted on 04/02/2013 9:51:17 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: BornToBeAmerican

The Holy Spirit only indwells those who are His — not everyone.


14 posted on 04/02/2013 9:51:53 AM PDT by JLLH
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To: circlecity

You beat me to it!


15 posted on 04/02/2013 9:53:29 AM PDT by JLLH
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To: daniel1212

Ancient words ever true...
Changing me and changing you.


16 posted on 04/02/2013 10:30:57 AM PDT by fatboy (This protestant will have no part in the ecumenical movement)
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To: daniel1212

The article states.........”The biggest jump of any group are those American adults who are ‘antagonistic’ to the Bible,.... meaning they believe the Bible to just be a book of stories and teachings written by men, and they rarely or never read the Bible..... That group stood at one in ten adults (10%) in 2011.... In 2013, their ranks have grown to 17% of all U.S. adults.”.....

Hello Daniell....the article references “adults”....I would be interested in the youth of today...which could quite easily surpass 20% and far more, I think.


17 posted on 04/02/2013 10:32:57 AM PDT by caww
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To: daniel1212

I read the Bible at least once a day.


18 posted on 04/02/2013 10:37:00 AM PDT by Truth2012
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To: daniel1212

I imagine a few, I won’t call them problems, but more additions, to the Bible. And it won’t be solved with “rewriting the Bible” to produce a universal book, but working “outside the Bible”, to produce other resources for Christians.

The most important part of this could be called “The Bible, part II”, which begins with the schism of Christians and Jews, and follows *both* of them beyond those times.

I say this because their histories after that point, come in “fits and starts”, both at intervals producing brilliant ideas, and having major setbacks.

For instance, an entire “book” of this Bible II, could contain the creation of the “Mishnah”, the first written compendium of Judaism’s Oral Law, about 200 AD; and another “book” a synopsis of the First Council of Nicaea, the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom, about 350 AD.

There is some extremely important ideas coming from both groups that would deeply enrich Christian understanding of their faith, and the acceptance of Judaism as a “sister faith”, instead of a rival.

As it continues, it would mention the Jewish diaspora, the divisions within Christianity, and most importantly, the great ideas of faith and understanding that give depth and purpose to the modern world.

It should also not shy away from its failures and abuses, while not reveling in them.

In conclusion, the last Jewish “book” should be with the Holocaust and the creation of Israel. Perhaps the last Christian “book” would be the triumph of faith over socialist-communism, with the fall of the Soviet Union and its return to Christianity.

Time has separated all of us from the world of the Bible, and for many, the word as it is is not enough to make the connection. For years there have been efforts to change the word, to make it accessible, but they have failed. So what is needed is to make the connections, to close the gap of time.


19 posted on 04/02/2013 11:00:53 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Best WoT news at rantburg.com)
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To: daniel1212

.

“72% of Catholics said that the will of the American people should have more influence than the Bible on US law”

Good grief. Catholics are the problem in this country, apparently. Perhaps someone should ask if they have more faith in Jesus or the government.


20 posted on 04/02/2013 11:01:33 AM PDT by txrefugee
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To: caww

I also saw that as alarming, and among college age it is higher.


21 posted on 04/02/2013 11:34:21 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Truth2012

God bless


22 posted on 04/02/2013 11:34:43 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Seraphicaviary

But note that Catholics that are Biblical literalists (11.8%) hold more conservative political views than the Catholic population in general does. The Biblical literalist Catholic is as politically conservative as the Biblical literalist who is Evangelical (47.8%) or Mainline Protestant. (11.2%)


23 posted on 04/02/2013 11:36:37 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: equaviator
67% of Republicans are married, and 57% are married with children. Compare this to 45%/38% for Democrats. Democrats are also almost twice as likely to cohabit [live in sin] (9% vs. 4%). 2010, Pew Research Center; http://theosophical.wordpress.com/2011/01/13/americans%E2%80%99-changing-views-of-marriage-and-family/#more-2540

44% of Americans admit that they have cohabited at some point in their lives (men = 46%; women = 41%). Those aged 30-49 were most likely to have cohabited (57%). 44% of 18-29 year olds have as well, followed by 42% of 50-64 year olds, and 18% of 65+. By race, blacks are most likely to have cohabited (47%), followed by white (44%) and Hispanic (39% – which includes any non-white and non-black person). ^

63% of cohabiters had children before moving in together, and 25% of married couples had children before getting married. ^

Only 34% of adults age 18-29 think cohabiting parents is bad for society, compared to 58% of the oldest adults. ^

68% of adults believed premarital sex was wrong in 1968, compared to only 32% who said the same in 2009. ^

Children born out of wedlock has increased from 5% in 1960 to 28% in 1990 to 41% in 2008. 72% of black women giving birth were unmarried in 2008, compared to 53% of Hispanics and 29% of whites. ^

5% of divorced parents have sole-custody of the children (the number of women who have sole custody is double that of men), 35% share custody, and 18% have no custody at all. ^

Women constitute 77% of the total number of unmarried parents living with children. ^

52% of black children, 27% of Hispanic children, and 18% of white children are being raised in single-parent homes. 19% of black adults are living in households with a child but no spouse. ^

83% of unmarried adults who want to get married also want to have kids. 31% who do not want to get married want to have kids anyway (30% do not want kids and 38% aren’t sure). ^

In 1980 only 10% of women age 40-44 were childless. By 2008 that number increased to 18% (white women most likely to be childless)

Between 1960 and 1990, the percentage of children living apart from their biological fathers more than doubled, from 17 percent to 36 percent. http://mensightmagazine.com/Articles/Popenoe/nofathers.htm

Children who are raised without their fathers account for 63 percent of youth suicides, 71 percent of pregnant teenagers, 90 percent of homeless and runaway children, 85 percent of behavioral disorders exhibited by children, and 71 percent of high school dropouts, in the United States. House Concurrent Resolution 147; [2001?]. https://fatherhood.safeserver.com/legislative.htm.

A child born to a single mother is twice as likely to drop out of high school, twice as likely to have a child before age twenty, and one and a half times as likely to be out of school and out of work in his/her late teens and early twenties. U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Reports, (estimated) Executive Summary:Status of Children in America http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/children/children.html

The general health problems of children from broken homes increase by 20 to 30%, even when adjusting for demographic factors (economic status, etc.). Studies cited in "Twice as strong," The Christian American, March/April 1996, p. 28 http://www.leaderu.com/marco/marriage/gaymarriage5.html#ref221

70% of children in state reform institutions grew up in single-parent or no-parent homes. "Be glad for the undoing of no-faults," Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph, February 15, 1996, p. B-5. http://www.leaderu.com/marco/marriage/gaymarriage5.html#ref224

Read more: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html#Disclaimer#ixzz2PKgvt8Op

24 posted on 04/02/2013 11:42:43 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

Unfortunately the school systems have taken over our children even before they hit first grade...so by the time they are in college...the “standard” is set...anything goes in the areas of sexual “freedoms”,....and the educational system will teach them how.


25 posted on 04/02/2013 11:42:57 AM PDT by caww
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To: daniel1212

Children who are raised ‘without their fathers’ account for:

63 percent of youth suicides.
71 percent of pregnant teenagers.
90 percent of homeless and runaway children.
85 percent of behavioral disorders exhibited by children. 71 percent of high school dropouts, in the United States.

Sad state of affairs when Fathers leave their post.


26 posted on 04/02/2013 11:47:58 AM PDT by caww
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To: DManA

I saw that. All the news that it see fit to print is not according to God’s “newspaper.’


27 posted on 04/02/2013 11:52:21 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: txrefugee

For Catholics, the supreme authority is not Scripture but their magisterium, and on difficult moral questions, 22% of weekly Catholics say they are are more likely to follow the teachings of the Pope, while 66% (and 78% of all U.S. Catholics) say their conscience; 74% believe it iis possible to disagree with the pope on issues like birth control, abortion or divorce and still be a good Catholic.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/03/05/us/catholics-poll-graphic.html?ref=us#


28 posted on 04/02/2013 11:58:19 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: JLLH

Read the words........

Jhn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created male and female created he them.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. Every living person was given the light.

Jhn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood [fn] it.

Luk 11:35 See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness.

Just because the light of the Spirit is not seen, does not mean that it is not there. It is just not understood.

What do you think being born again means. All truth comes from within, not without. This is where the light of truth has forever been.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. Every living person was given the light

What is not to understand?


29 posted on 04/02/2013 12:17:35 PM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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To: circlecity; BornToBeAmerican

Maybe Genesis 1:26-28 and Genesis 5:3 should be read here. Adam was created in the LIKENESS OF GOD(1:26-28); men are BEGOTTEN in ADAM’S LIKENESS (5:3). God’s likeness was perfect; Adam’s likeness was imperfect and depraved with the law of sin and death working in and bringing it to ruin (Job 14:4; 25:4; Ps.14:3;51:5;, Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15:39; and Eph. 2:2-3. Which is what most of the Bible is about. Death did not come by personal sin, as it did in the case of Adam. Death passed upon ALL MEN because of Adam’s sin. (Gen. 2:17). We are born in sin, not sinless. Because we are begotten in Adam’s likeness.


30 posted on 04/02/2013 12:41:01 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: BornToBeAmerican

I think you need to check out Romans. Specifically: Romans 3:1-28 for starters. NOWHERE does it say that God’s Holy Spirit indwells unbelievers. He does not. He indwells the believer ONLY. I think you are getting the concept of man’s being made in the image of God confused with some kind of idea of natural holiness that man possesses. As the above verses (among many many others in Scripture) point out, mankind is naturally wicked. He is NOT “holy” in any sense of the word. Hence, mankind’s need for a Savior who is. Any “good” mankind thinks he’s doing apart from Christ is “as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6). Christ’s promise of His Spirit is to the believer only (See Luke 24 for the account of Christ’s resurrection and this promise.)


31 posted on 04/02/2013 2:35:54 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: BornToBeAmerican

By the way, the fact that mankind was given the truth only means he’s accountable for not believing on Christ for the forgiveness of sins. As for the idea that mankind has some type of inner cleanliness — Christ debunks that in Matthew 15:18-20:
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.” From the inner core of mankind he is sinful from birth. There is no “inner goodness”, “inner truth”, or “inner light”. There is only darkness apart from Christ.

Also see Jeremiah 17:9 - “For the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can conceive it?” Certainly no indicator of any inner goodness or light!


32 posted on 04/02/2013 2:45:17 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: JLLH

So sad to see that you deny the light of truth, the foundation that only Christ could have laid.

1Cr 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Do you deny that the light of truth (spirit) which was laid by Christ himself does not exist. Perhaps you might consider that the Counselor that Jesus promised helps bringing the light to light so that it no longer shines in darkness. Hence being born again.

If this is not the case, then how is it that the truth/light shines in total darkness?


33 posted on 04/02/2013 2:54:32 PM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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To: BornToBeAmerican

When one believes on Christ for the pardon of all of his/her sins, THEN one is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Not before. Else there is no need for Christ’s sacrifice if we are already “holy”. I do not deny Christ’s holiness, but yes, absolutely I do refute the unBiblical stance that mankind is holy apart from Christ. Scripture does not teach that.


34 posted on 04/02/2013 3:02:32 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: JLLH
I hope this is not just big paragraph. I promise it was not when posted. This getting interesting, I hope you will learn something from this. 2Cr 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ. Whose light? Gods own light Shine from where? Their hearts What happened? Made the light shine out of the darkness But do not be shocked that all do not shine in Spirit Jhn 12:40. "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." Could this be so? Could God be responsible for some not being able to see the truth? Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [fn] Seems like God will justify those he wants..... Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Seems like there is nothing we eve do........ Rom 9:17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [fn] Rom 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. The cold hard truth is here, if someone does not have the truth, it is because it has never been revealed to them. The light continues to shine in darkness. Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" Good question..... Rom 9:20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " [fn] Ahhh, where is the trust? Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? The simple thing is if one chooses to mock another for not "having" the truth, is this one really mocking God. It would seem so. All we can do to help is to pray for them and love them in any capacity that we can.
35 posted on 04/02/2013 3:16:45 PM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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To: JLLH

Did I ever say anyone who lives in Scriptural darkness is Holy. If I did, then I apologize, it was not my intent. This does not change that light of truth was not present. It just was not understood and shone in darkness.


36 posted on 04/02/2013 3:19:49 PM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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To: daniel1212

Technical difficulties currently being experienced are not the fault of your receiver. Please stand by...


37 posted on 04/02/2013 3:46:56 PM PDT by equaviator
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To: BornToBeAmerican

The implication of believing everyone has the Holy Spirit living in them is a denial of Scripture which states clearly that mankind is inherently sinful. Which is it for it cannot be both? Either man is inherently wicked, as Scripture states, or inherently “good” because he is indwelt automatically at birth with the Holy Spirit. Besides being a contradiction to Scripture, this latter is a spiritual impossibility because we know from Scripture that demon possession is real. A body cannot be both indwelt with the Holy Spirit and with a demon. It is a spiritual impossibility. One can have either — but not both. You keep citing Scriptures about “light” and “God’s light” and, forgive me, but it does sound as though you are equating that with a New Age type “God lives in all of us; we are all Heaven-bound” universalism. Scripture not only does NOT teach this but it teaches the exact opposite. NO WHERE in Scripture does Christ speak of giving the Holy Spirit to anyone except in the context of being one of HIS. The whole world does not get the Holy Spirit by some sort of “default”. We know this from the fact that Christ reiterates over and over and over again that “narrow is the way” to Him. The Holy Spirit is the mark of the believer — not some special “light” given to everyone. It’s the mark God places on those who know Him. It happens upon regeneration of the Hell-bound sinner (which describes all of us upon birth).


38 posted on 04/03/2013 10:37:22 AM PDT by JLLH
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To: JLLH

First premise, I do not believe that any person that God created perfectly can in anyway shape or form, be 100% evil, no matter what they do or say.

Second, you obviously have no concept of light shining in darkness. I have given you Scriptual proof, and paraphrasing for your benefit: if then your light shines in darkness, how great then is the DARKNESS?

Third, no one can come to the Father unless called. Nothing, anyone can do or say can by pass or circumvent this requirement.

Fourth and finally, you may choose to see evil and look down on it you like. Truly, I am perfectly fine with this. I have absolutely nothing but love for you. Because, this is what has been given to do. I trust God in everything and I choose to see goodness in all that I can. So, yes I do believe that there is something inheriently good in everyone, even if that good light shines in total darkness. I do believe that love has a greater capacity to heal than evil has to destroy. Just look what God did through love.


39 posted on 04/03/2013 3:22:57 PM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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To: JLLH

just for good measure, did I not say that the Holy Spirit brings the light that shines in darkness to light? Did not Paul state clearly that He, God caused through Spirit, the light of all truth to shine in and through them.

So you are so quick to want to categorize me and label with some label in order to what? Make you feel better or me? Does this labeling, sanctify Christ and glorify him? Rather, than worrying and concerning yourself about me, should you not by the grace of God, be more concerned with your own heart. Because, as Jesus said, actions speak louder than belief. Ie. The Good Samaritan. I said, I would be slammed on my first post. Doesn’t take much does it?

Of course, the road to truth and salvation is narrow, and it is a lot like the treasure in the field that Jesus spoke about. Do not concern yourself with a speck in my eye when you may have a log in your own. This is of course not saying that you have, but saying, always be more concerned about your own spiritual well being than of others.

And don’t ever forget Love, for darkness has no abode with the light of love.


40 posted on 04/03/2013 4:15:32 PM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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To: BornToBeAmerican

First premise, I do not believe that any person that God created perfectly can in anyway shape or form, be 100% evil, no matter what they do or say.

Then you are denying Scripture because it declares the opposite many times over: “There is not one who does good; no not one.” Many other verses confirming this have been quoted here as well. So your problem isn’t with me, it’s with Scripture. Again, you are interpreting “light” to equate it with the Holy Spirit when Scripture does NOT teach that unbelievers have the Holy Spirit. They simply do not. That’s clear from Scripture. Those who have a “light to so shine before men” are the believers. Context is crucial when reading Scripture. To whom are the verses addressed? It’s quite clear that it’s not to the general public — especially since throughout Scripture it’s made very plain that the unbelieving public have no light to “so shine”. Indeed, Christians are told to let THEIR light shine — since they are the ones who have the light — on the darkness of the world: i.e. the unbelievers. We are also called to be “salt”. That’s not a general command to everyone, but only to believers. What salt does the unbeliever possess? None. Does the unbeliever possess God in the form of the Holy Spirit? No. Scripture is very clear on this point. You are, of course, perfectly at liberty to deny Scripture and believe what you want to believe, but it’s an untenable and un-authoritative position since Scripture, God’s Word, teaches otherwise. I will pray that the Lord opens the Truth of His Word to you but I will remain with His Word.


41 posted on 04/03/2013 4:20:25 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: BornToBeAmerican

So you equate someone disagreeing with you on the authority of God’s Word as “being slammed”? Doesn’t take much to feel like a victim, does it? That’s being a bit extreme. I take issue with your conflation of “light” with the “Holy Spirit” as I would anyone’s misrepresentation of the Word. If that offends you, then please be more cautious with your use of God’s Word, because believers will take issue with it being used in a fashion inconsistent with what is said. The stakes are simply too high to allow “universalism” (under any name it’s all the same) to be represented as Scriptural. It simply is not.

As for “labeling” you, I did no such thing, but to be perfectly frank— if your position is that everyone has the Holy Spirit, then you are preaching a different Gospel and that cannot go unanswered. It does not make me “feel” one way or the other, but yes, I will refute heresy when it appears here or elsewhere because God’s Word is not to be taken lightly and as a believer I take it very very seriously. Misrepresenting His Word (regardless of the label one puts on it) does not glorify Christ. Hence the need to be very very careful with what one says and examine Scripture carefully because it never contradicts itself.


42 posted on 04/03/2013 4:29:25 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: JLLH

As always, you have misquoted me and seek to blame me saying things I did not. I said you cannot offend me. You didn’t. Okay. All is well.

Likewise, I did not say that everyone has the Holy Spirit. I said and I gave Scriptural proof that everyone has the foundation thatJesus Christ himself laid. the light of which is in all men. All build on this foundation. Please read the words.

Once again, I will say to you, of what use is a light that shines in darkness? Does Scripture not state that if spiritual light shines in darkness, how great then is the light?

The Holy Spirit was sent to remind and to teach everything that Jesus taught. likewise, the Holy Spirit, brings to light the light which is the foundation of all men. How else can the light that shines in darkness begin to shine in light and truth, if not for the Holy Spirit?

Truly, read the words, read them and mediate on them. Pray for understanding. All you are refuting is your own words, because I have said nothing that I have not given full Scriptural proof. Are you so uncomfortable in your own belief that the only way you can shore it up is to misrepresent?

Refute all you like, spend your life looking down on others who do not share your views. I am perfectly fine with this, if this is who you are then God has made you this way for a reason. The reason though is not for me to know or surmise, rather it is to always search for common ground and that ground always is love and where there is love, there is light, the foundation of Christ himself.

I will agree with you 100% Scripture cannot contradict itself. I know this and can reconcile the entire Scriptures from beginning to end. The end does not end with Revelation, that my friend is only the beginning of the end.

From the Darby bible: John 12:32. and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.


43 posted on 04/04/2013 6:11:37 AM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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To: JLLH

How great then is the light should have been how great then is the DARKNESS.

SORRY about that


44 posted on 04/04/2013 6:12:58 AM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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To: BornToBeAmerican

OK. One last post and then I’m done because we do not appear to be using the same terminology with the same meaning behind it. You claimed in your very first post that everyone has the spirit of Jesus (aka - the Holy Spirit since Jesus IS God and obviously part of the Trinity). Now you are claiming you did NOT say that everyone has the Holy Spirit. Clearly you are saying one or the other. FYI - I have misquoted nothing, but you are changing your tune from one to the other — which I strongly suspect is because you are confusing much of the terminology and perhaps it’s not clear even in your own mind. No idea. In any event, you claim I have “slammed” you, “looked down on you” and are now playing the victim card. I’m frankly not interested in continuing this charade since you are not seriously engaged. You know nothing about me and presume quite a bit when you claim what I’m feeling, doing, and need to do before God. You might want to return to Scripture and look again at the verses and WHO the ADDRESSEE is. Yes, Christ sent the Holy Spirit — but not for everyone. For His Followers. Ergo, not everyone has Jesus living in them. The “light” to which you keep referring — when addressed to the UNBELIEVER — refers to what God has given mankind through His creation. People should be able to look around and see that a Creator designed what they see. They have the Scriptures, they have creation, they have been shown enough. The Holy Spirit draws those who will be His unto Himself, but please don’t mistake that everyone “has” Jesus “living in them” because they do not and Scriptures do not teach that, regardless of the interpretation and spin you are putting on them. That would be a contradiction in terms. Others here have said the same thing I am saying but for whatever reason you have chosen to believe I am the only one who has done so. Whatever. I’m done here. This is completely unproductive because your motivation does not appear to be legitimate. I will pray the Lord opens your eyes.


45 posted on 04/04/2013 12:21:42 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: BornToBeAmerican

BTW, one cannot “have Jesus” and still be hell-bound. Hence, the charge of “universalism”. If everyone “has Jesus living in them” as you have claimed in your very first post, they are all Heaven-bound, which we know is not true from Scripture. Only the believers have Christ. This IS Scriptural. Somewhere along the line you have confused the term “light” with “Jesus” or the “Holy Spirit” and are in error. Scripture does not teach that everyone has Jesus. Scripture teaches that all NEED Jesus for salvation. If they already have Him, what need to go any further? Everyone’s already saved! (This view is a type of “universalism”, by the way, and is completely anathema to the Scriptural view.)

I have shown you in Scriptures where mankind is completely inherently sinful. You have chosen to believe otherwise - which you have stated in one of your posts —which is your “right”, but do not expect those who rest on the authority of God’s Word to agree with you on it because that notion is not Scriptural.


46 posted on 04/04/2013 12:34:35 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: JLLH

One last post from me on this too. No hard feelings ok.

Of course God is Spirit, and nothing is more Holy than He. Christ is also Spirit, who by scripture we learn that he laid the foundation that EVERYONE builds on. (See to it you build well) we are warned.

Lastly, the Holy Spirit by the definition of Jesus is a Counsolor or as sometimes refered a Comforter. It is this aspect of the Holy Spirit that brings one to the Light of all truth.

Deny the Scriptures at your own peril.

If I have offended you then please forgive me, it was not my intention. If you feel I was crying wolf, then likewise I apologize. The only person that can upset me, anger or frustrate me, is me, myself and I.

You are not responsible for anything I say or feel, okay.

I pray that you can find it in your heart to look to examine your own faith and belief system.

For I have shown you where damned or not damned, Christ will indeed draw all to him.

Let’s look at I Tim. 4:9-10 in any context you wish:

“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

Specially those that believe, which means of course the ‘all’ means those that DO NOT.

A faithful and true saying, believe what you will. I trust in The Lord my God and Father whose words I just quoted.


47 posted on 04/04/2013 1:13:51 PM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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To: BornToBeAmerican

This.....

which means of course the ‘all’ means those that DO NOT

Should have been

which means of course the ‘all’ INCLUDES those that DO NOT.

My apologies


48 posted on 04/04/2013 1:17:36 PM PDT by BornToBeAmerican (Don't forget love)
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