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Dave Hunt .. 1926 - 2013
The Berean Call ^ | April 6, 2013 | knarf

Posted on 04/06/2013 9:21:17 AM PDT by knarf

Dave will be greatly missed


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: christian
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To: Syncro

You apparently know even less about the doctrines Hunt attacked than he did.

Nothing Jesus said in any way goes against the idea of Purgatory. “It is finished” refers to His act of sacrifice not how His act of sacrifice would effect us.

And no Catholic is ignoring what Peter said in 1 Peter 3:18. If you knew what Purgatory is you would know it is not about punishment for sins in the sacrificial sense - Jesus took care of that - it is merely purging for our attachment to sin so that we can enter Heaven perfectly cleansed as required by Rev. 21:27. Ever notice how many Protestants ignore what Peter said three verses later in 1 Peter 3:21?

“Rest in Peace, Dave Hunt and thank you for all you did to correct errors in many areas.”

The ultimate irony is, if he is going to Heaven, he’ll probably be suffering in Purgatory quite a bit.


51 posted on 04/06/2013 3:14:05 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: roamer_1
I guess I better go look up Dave Hunt's work. Your seemingly knee-jerk hatred and disregard for common courtesy on a RIP thread has piqued my interest. Thanks for that much, anyway.

The Berean Call, which Mr. Hunt and Mr. McMahon founded, is an excellent resource for truthful, Biblical discernment teaching.

52 posted on 04/06/2013 3:14:46 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: Revolting cat!
I am not a follower

Thanks for the confirmation.

That's why I posted this to you :

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Follow him. He is ready for you to go from "an observer" to a follower.

53 posted on 04/06/2013 3:54:28 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: knarf

Dave was a good friend of a good friend of mine. I met him several times and helped with the logistics work for one of his debates against a Catholic Apologist.


54 posted on 04/06/2013 3:56:46 PM PDT by cyclotic (In a society of wolves, you do not fight back by creating more sheep-Dan Bongino)
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To: cyclotic

I would love to watch that debate. Is it on the Internet, available to watch? I wish I could have met Mr. Hunt.


55 posted on 04/06/2013 4:05:43 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: vladimir998
You apparently know even less about the doctrines Hunt attacked exposed than he did.

I Corrected your statement.

That's why I quoted DIRECTLY from Catholic dogma.

Nothing Jesus said in any way goes against the idea of Purgatory

Sorry, Jesus died for our sins, and cleansed us from them.

He died on the cross with ALL of our sins upon Him, making purgatory unnecessary and in fact denies the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross.

Here is the quote FROM CATHOLIC teachings, I will "bold" the parts you seemed not to see:

The latter council described purgatory as a place where the souls of the dead make expiation "in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments." According to Vatican II, "in purgatory the souls of those ‘who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions’ are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt." The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes purgatory as place of "cleansing fire."[1031]
Look it up. If you disagree with it, good.

(purgatory) is merely purging for our attachment to sin so that we can enter Heaven perfectly cleansed

Jesus already did that.

Should I repeat it or can you read what Jesus did on the cross that I wrote above?

"The ultimate irony is, if he is going to Heaven, he’ll probably be suffering in Purgatory quite a bit.
LOL, Christians don't go to purgatory upon death, they go right to be with Jesus. (Dave Hunt did a great job exposing the fallacy of purgatory)

I can give you the scriptures to confirm if you don't know them.

56 posted on 04/06/2013 4:10:07 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: WXRGina

The audio tapes were available for years through Berean Call. It was in Warren, MI about 10 years ago.

I actually missed most of the debate. I was managing the stage crew and all the other logistics.


57 posted on 04/06/2013 4:12:24 PM PDT by cyclotic (In a society of wolves, you do not fight back by creating more sheep-Dan Bongino)
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To: WXRGina

Thanks!

Jesus trumps all.


58 posted on 04/06/2013 4:21:46 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: cyclotic

I’ll dig through their site to see if those are still available.

That must have been some kind of production to have a stage crew and a bunch of logistics to manage!


59 posted on 04/06/2013 4:22:53 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: Syncro
Jesus trumps all.

Yep! And, one Fine and Terrible Day, everyone will know it.

60 posted on 04/06/2013 4:24:42 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: WXRGina
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.--Revelation 22:20
Come quickly. Please
61 posted on 04/06/2013 4:31:04 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: Syncro

“But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next.” — Jesus

“But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15


62 posted on 04/06/2013 4:33:58 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: WXRGina

Not really. Couple thousand spectators. Had a bunch of volunteers who helped with crowd movement and taking an offering to pay for the venue. I can’t remember what we did for sound and lighting but that wasn’t my area. We rented a high school auditoreum


63 posted on 04/06/2013 4:35:05 PM PDT by cyclotic (In a society of wolves, you do not fight back by creating more sheep-Dan Bongino)
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To: Syncro

AMEN!


64 posted on 04/06/2013 4:37:27 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: cyclotic

I’ll bet it was a nice experience.


65 posted on 04/06/2013 4:38:30 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Well I don't think pushing purgatory---denying the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for the cleansing of ALL of our sins---is speaking against the Holy Spirit but maybe it is.

Beware to those that deny Christ and His "it is finished" sacrifice which makes Christians "white as snow"

“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow--Isaiah 1:18
Are you attempting to tie your "through fire" scripture quote with purgatory?
66 posted on 04/06/2013 5:00:43 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: Syncro

“But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next.” —Jesus

This statement demonstrates, without doubt, the possibility of the forgiveness of some sins in the next world.

The passage from Corinthians fleshes out this process a bit more.


67 posted on 04/06/2013 5:09:39 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: Syncro

You wrote:

“I Corrected your statement.”

No you didn’t.

“That’s why I quoted DIRECTLY from Catholic dogma.”

The problem is not what you quoted, but what you claim it means. I got it right. You didn’t.

“Sorry, Jesus died for our sins, and cleansed us from them.”

And Purgatory doesn’t negate that. What powers Purgatory is Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. There is no other origin of grace. That’s the whole point.

“He died on the cross with ALL of our sins upon Him, making purgatory unnecessary and in fact denies the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross.”

False. Purgatory can only exist BECAUSE of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. It doesn’t deny but actually wholeheartedly affirms it.

“Here is the quote FROM CATHOLIC teachings, I will “bold” the parts you seemed not to see:”

I did see the parts in bold the first time. The problem is not my eyesight but your interpretation. I got it right. You didn’t. That won’t change.

If we actually look at the document you’re quoting from we’ll see that you’re honesty is the same as Hunt’s.

Here’s the first sentence:

“The latter council described purgatory as a place where the souls of the dead make expiation “in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments.””

The claim made that “The latter council described purgatory as a place where the souls of the dead make expiation...” is false. The Council did not describe Purgator that way. The quote is actually lifted from a document on indulgences written two years after the Second Vatican Council ended. Hunt never cared about being accurate or precise. He was a bigot. That’s why on page 474 of his anti-Catholic book, A Woman Rides the Beast, (yes, I’ve read it and own a copy) he says (just look for footnote 1) that the quote is from Vatican II even though it is not. Again, facts don’t actually matter to bigots.

Here’s the actual passage from the original document:

2. The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God’s holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. (3) Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments. (4) This is why the faithful have always been convinced that the paths of evil are strewn with many stumbling blocks. They bring to those who follow them adversities, bitterness and harm. (5).

Now back to the quote you posted:

“According to Vatican II, “in purgatory the souls of those ‘who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions’ are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt.””

Well, again, there’s the problem of the quote not actually being from Vatican II. Vatican II ended in 1965. The quote is - apparently according to other sources - from 1967. Then again, Hunt always did this quoting within a quot thing and was so dishonest in his efforts that it is difficult to source what he claims anyway. See Flannery, Vol. 1 page 64 if you don’t believe me.

“The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes purgatory as place of “cleansing fire.”[1031]

Here Hunt get the Catechism number right, but leaves out the full quote because it says:

“1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

“As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.”

“Look it up.”

Did. Saw once again that Hunt is. . . er, WAS dishonest. Now he’s just dead.

“If you disagree with it, good.”

I disagree with Hunt’s dishonesty - his taking things out of context and his dishonest interpretation.

“Jesus already did that.”

No. What Jesus did was win forgiveness for us. Jesus did not purge your sinfulness on the Cross. He won forgiveness for us. We must still go to Him to have that forgiveness applied to us. This is why Protestants believe in “altar calls” to come to Jesus and ask for forgiveness. Have you never read Colossians 2:13-15 and 1 Cor. 15:1-4 or Hebrews 5:9 ? Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins, but we must respond to His call to have that forgiveness applied to us and even maintained.

“Should I repeat it or can you read what Jesus did on the cross that I wrote above?”

Oh, I can read just fine. And that’s why I know the truth. You apparently don’t know the truth.

“LOL, Christians don’t go to purgatory upon death, they go right to be with Jesus.”

No. Most who go to Heaven will go through Purgatory first - because they’ll need to (Rev.21:27).

“(Dave Hunt did a great job exposing the fallacy of purgatory)”

No, his excellence seems to be in making a mockery of himself, showing himself to be a sciolist.

“I can give you the scriptures to confirm if you don’t know them.”

I know them - and I know the truth. It is clear you either don’t know them or don’t understand them.


68 posted on 04/06/2013 5:20:25 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: DannyTN

Sir, I am not going to get into a long, drawn-out debate with you or anyone else about this doctrine. I will say this much: I read Scripture, I do keep searching and, based on my studies and meditations, this doctrine does NOT line up with Scripture, period. I understand what you’re trying to tell but I’ve heard all the arguments for this doctrine and, based on my CONTINUED studies in the Scriptures, they are not persuasive.

But, I appreciate your concern though. Thank you.


69 posted on 04/06/2013 5:39:43 PM PDT by Sister_T
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To: usmc19651990.

Did my post suggest otherwise? I believe I was very clear: I learned A LOT from Dave Hunt and I have no ill will towards the man. How does one have ill will towards one of their first teachers of the faith? I greatly respected Dave Hunt and read many of his books. I simply disagreed with his teachings on Once Saved Always Saved and, as I pointed out to someone else on this topic, I am not going to be drawn into a debate about that.


70 posted on 04/06/2013 5:42:58 PM PDT by Sister_T
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
“But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next.” —Jesus

I don't know what translation you are using, but here are three quotes referencing what you are speaking of:

"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." [Mt. 12:32]

"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin." [Mk. 3:29]

"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." [Lk. 12:10]
No one who commits this grievous sin will enter heaven.

And it WILL not be purged it the un-Biblical purgatory of Catholicism.

71 posted on 04/06/2013 5:43:53 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: vladimir998

I did no interpretations, nor did I quote from Dave Hunt at all.

I quoted from Catholic doctrine.

If you don’t accept it, fine it’s from your tradition.

I have no idea what Hunt quoted, like I said I quoted from official Catholic doctrine, with reference.

I took nothing out of context, and you keep beating up on Hunt, and then me for using his material. I didn’t. I used Catholic material.

I won’t waste my time on the rest of your jibber jabber (thanks Penny) as it would be just spinning wheels.

I get it you hate Hunt, and seem to like mentioning that he is dead.

Nice.

The point is that Jesus took our sins on the cross with Him, and He took ALL the punishment for them.

Purgatory denies that, not affirms His sacrifice.

Contrary to your beliefs, purgatory can NOT exist precisely BECAUSE of Christ’s sacrifice.

It’s nice to know that Jesus taking our sins settled it once and for all.

It seems you will continue to believe in the teachings of the belief system you are committed to, and maybe because of that God will allow you some punishment so you can feel better about what you believe.

I doubt it though, He loves you too much to have you endure what he already endured for you.


72 posted on 04/06/2013 5:59:32 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: Syncro

King James version.

http://bible.cc/matthew/12-32.htm


73 posted on 04/06/2013 6:05:20 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: Syncro

—— No one who commits this grievous sin will enter heaven-——

Read my posts again.

I’m not arguing that point.

The purpose of the quote was to show Jesus speaking of the possibility of the forgiveness of some sins in “the world to come.”


74 posted on 04/06/2013 6:08:42 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

World, age etc: 1000 year rein.


75 posted on 04/06/2013 6:13:30 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: Syncro

You wrote:

“I did no interpretations, nor did I quote from Dave Hunt at all.”

So you quoted someone else without attribution? Typical.

“I quoted from Catholic doctrine.”

No, it looks like you quoted James McCarthy: http://www.btwol.com/06_Articles/List_of_articles/Purgatory.htm verbatim!!!

“If you don’t accept it, fine it’s from your tradition.”

No, McCarthy is one of yours, not ours.

“I have no idea what Hunt quoted, like I said I quoted from official Catholic doctrine, with reference.”

Again, you quoted McCarthy VERBATIM.

“I took nothing out of context, and you keep beating up on Hunt, and then me for using his material. I didn’t. I used Catholic material.”

No, you used McCarthy. The quote is EXACTLY the same - VERBATIM. So, he took the original texts out of context and you didn’t know it because you’re never read them.

“I won’t waste my time on the rest of your jibber jabber (thanks Penny) as it would be just spinning wheels.”

Like claiming you quoted Catholic sources when really you just quoted McCarthy. Here again is the link: http://www.btwol.com/06_Articles/List_of_articles/Purgatory.htm

It’s amazing how intellectually dishonest anti-Catholics are.

“I get it you hate Hunt, and seem to like mentioning that he is dead.”

I don’t hate him. I do hate his sinfully dishonest ways. I mentioned he was dead, That’s what the thread IS about isn’t it?

“Nice. The point is that Jesus took our sins on the cross with Him, and He took ALL the punishment for them.”

If that were true as you are casting it then there would be no suffering in this life. Have you ever suffered? Ever gotten sick? Clearly Christ took our ULTIMATE penalty of sin. But if there was no other punishment then you would never get sick, old or die.

“Purgatory denies that, not affirms His sacrifice.”

No. It is the exact opposite. Purgatory can only exist because of His sacrifice.

“Contrary to your beliefs, purgatory can NOT exist precisely BECAUSE of Christ’s sacrifice.”

No, if that were true then no cleansing at all could exist but clearly it does.

“It’s nice to know that Jesus taking our sins settled it once and for all.”

It settled the issue of redemption, but not everyone will be saved. The view you are putting forward logically demands that all men will be saved no matter what they do or believe - even if they deny Christ - and yet at the same time you would strenuously deny that exact point. That is the illogic of Protestantism.

“It seems you will continue to believe in the teachings of the belief system you are committed to, and maybe because of that God will allow you some punishment so you can feel better about what you believe.”

No, what will happen is that I will continue to believe in teh gospel as taught by God, His word and the Church (notice how you ran away from dealing with the verses I posted to you?).

“I doubt it though, He loves you too much to have you endure what he already endured for you.”

I don’t have to endure what He endured. I must only endure what I must. Sometimes that includes enduring the ignorance of fools too.


76 posted on 04/06/2013 6:25:22 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: WXRGina
I met Dave Hunt at Criswells Church,...I think it was First Baptist at Dallas. He was a speaker at a seminar on the New Age Movement and Cults. I met him in 1977 along with Constance Cumbee (Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow). Dave was one of the kindest people I have ever met. He dedicated his life to Biblical truth. He traveled the world over studying the cults. He introduced me to the pervasiveness of the New Age movement and its occult origins. He never swerved from teaching and adhearing to the literacy of the Bible. I initially was introduced to his books in "The Cult Explosion", "The Seduction of Christianity", and "Beyond Seduction", as well as many other of his books. He often quoted that of the great Apostle Paul who the Berean, "searched the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught was so." He felt the cry across Europe, 'sola scriptura' had flickered nearly out. He often quoted Hugh Latimer, who was burned for his faith, saying to Master Ridley, "...be of good cheer, Master Ridley, for this day we shall light such a candle that it may never go out." It was said that Latimer, upon being put to the fire, extended his right hand (his writing hand), put it in the fire first, because he had written initially his recantation of his faith, which he very quickly recended. Dave thought this adherence to scripture was being lost. Yes, he found error in Catholic doctirine, but also in the more agressively exposed the Prosperity movement of the Protestants. He named names, only after he tried to go to them privately. When he could not get an audience he wrote of his concerns, but he did it in Christian love. I never heard vile from him. I think he, along with Oliver B.Greene of Greenville, South Carolina, made a greater impact on my life than any other preacher/teacher.

I have no doubt that Dave has met his Lord, and heard, "Well done, my good and faithful servant."

77 posted on 04/06/2013 6:33:00 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter (')
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To: vladimir998; All
His lousy scholarship concerned his shoddy understanding of history, scripture, philosophy, and science.

Oh, you mean he didn't believe the first eleven chapters of Genesis are mythology. Thanks for clearing that up.

You know, I'm not Protestant and certainly would have little in common with Dave Hunt (who would of necessity believed that I am headed for hell), but the typical shameful behavior of Catholic FReepers is once again on display for all to see.

Between the Catholic liberals and Catholic FReepers, who would want to be part of such a religion?

78 posted on 04/06/2013 6:37:03 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

ZC,

I bet you can relate any thing and any discussion to the first 11 chapters of Genesis. And that’s fine. Hunt is still dead. And you are still wrong about many things.


79 posted on 04/06/2013 6:43:29 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
You are right, it was from McCarthy, big deal.

Here, read it from the horses mouth.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/romancat.html

Just because someone you don't like quotes it, doesn't make it untrue.

Catholics argue like Mormons, denying their own teachings.

If you want, when you die you can go directly into the arms of Jesus.

I don’t have to endure what He endured. I must only endure what I must.

Christians don't have to endure anything at death.

New sins can be INSTANTLY forgiven by going to Jesus in prayer and repentance. If you wish to hold on to sins (endure) until you can confess formally to a man in holy garments, that is your choice.

If you wish to go through purgatory, maybe that is possible if you want it bad enough.

My best to you.

80 posted on 04/06/2013 6:50:48 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
...the typical shameful behavior of Catholic FReepers is once again on display for all to see.

Between the Catholic liberals and Catholic FReepers, who would want to be part of such a religion?

Isn't that so shameful?

And your answer is that Hunt is still dead.

Catholicism doesn't seem to do a very good job of teaching charity, manners, love, or respect for the dead.

81 posted on 04/06/2013 6:55:23 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: vladimir998

The Protestant anti-Catholics seem incapable of distinguishing between the Sacrifice on the Cross and the application of that grace to our individual souls.

It is not finished or we would be perfect now. I am not, but i do expect to be made worthy to standin God’s Presence. We shall bechanged.

In Isaiah, the prophet has his mouth purified with coals. Do the math.


82 posted on 04/06/2013 7:04:45 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: vladimir998
(notice how you ran away from dealing with the verses I posted to you?)

I did notice you gave references, but did not quote the Scriptures.

I'm not going to do your work for you, if you wish a response to scripture, post the scripture and the chapter and verse, not just one or the other.

I'm sure I can help you out with the Holy Spirit's take on them.

83 posted on 04/06/2013 7:07:05 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: Texas Songwriter

How blessed you were to meet him in this life, Texas Songwriter. Thank you for sharing this story. I know Mr. Hunt was a Godly treasure on Earth. He is indeed resting in Jesus right now, and he will rise up to his eternal reward on that last Day when Jesus calls.


84 posted on 04/06/2013 7:10:30 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: Syncro

You wrote:

“You are right, it was from McCarthy, big deal.”

The deal is that you didn’t bother to get it right. It wasn’t Church teaching. It was McCarthy.

“Here, read it from the horses mouth.”

It isn’t from Trent. Sheesh!

“Just because someone you don’t like quotes it, doesn’t make it untrue.”

It was not a quote, it was not a quote from Trent, it wasn’t from Vatican II. Beginning to get the picture?

“Catholics argue like Mormons, denying their own teachings.”

I have never denied any Catholic teaching. I deny your interpretation - the one you deny giving. Apparently you’re the one denying things like a Mormon.

“If you want, when you die you can go directly into the arms of Jesus.”

I do want that, and I pursue that, but rather imperfectly like most mortals. And in the end, it will be Jesus who will decide if I need purgation or not.

“Christians don’t have to endure anything at death.”

That’s not what some other Protestants believe. Ever read CS Lewis’ Screwtape Letters? Lewis, a Protestant, very clearly believed in Purgatory. Lewis wrote about a “process by which the work of redemption continues, and first perhaps begins to be noticeable after death”.

“New sins can be INSTANTLY forgiven by going to Jesus in prayer and repentance.”

Here again we see you clearly do not understand Christian theology. Christ already forgave all sins. Remember, “It is finished”. The issue is whether or not that forgiveness, which has already happened, has been applied to us yet. That’s what we ask for when we come to Jesus.

“If you wish to hold on to sins (endure) until you can confess formally to a man in holy garments, that is your choice.”

The “man in holy garments” merely does what St. Paul did in 2 Corinthians 2:10 as old Bibles word it: “To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the PERSON OF CHRIST”.

“If you wish to go through purgatory, maybe that is possible if you want it bad enough.”

Well, that’s a bizarre comment. You actually believe a person can create a state of purgation after death which you had previously denied existed merely because he wants “it bad enough”? Either Purgatory exists or it doesn’t - and it does. Here we see the usual relativism of Protestantism.

“My best to you.”

And the best to you - and that includes Purgatory if you need it. Cleansing with grace is a gift from God.


85 posted on 04/06/2013 7:27:17 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: knarf
This clip is a portion of the very good video "Israel, Islam and Armageddon" produced by Dave Hunt.

link here
86 posted on 04/06/2013 7:27:44 PM PDT by tang-soo (Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks - Read Daniel Chapter 9)
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To: Syncro

You wrote:

“I did notice you gave references, but did not quote the Scriptures.”

Does that change the truth of scripture? You do realize your excuse makes you look rather small, right?

“I’m not going to do your work for you, if you wish a response to scripture, post the scripture and the chapter and verse, not just one or the other.”

Okay, I will continue to just post verse numbers for you then. Suits me fine to let people see how you refuse to respond.

“I’m sure I can help you out with the Holy Spirit’s take on them.”

I’m sure you can’t since you’ve gotten so many things wrong so far. The Holy Spirit doesn’t misinterpret scripture. You do.


87 posted on 04/06/2013 7:31:22 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: SoothingDave

You wrote:

“It is not finished or we would be perfect now.”

I know! It’s amazing isn’t it? They just don’t seem to realize it.


88 posted on 04/06/2013 7:34:56 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

The stone has been thrown into the pond, but the ripples have not hit every shore. Yet. We exist in time. God does not.

Yes, very basic stuff.


89 posted on 04/06/2013 7:38:54 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: vladimir998

ping


90 posted on 04/06/2013 8:21:44 PM PDT by logitech (It is time.)
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To: Syncro
Syncro, I admire your attempts to point out the clear truth of God's Word to people who have faith, not in His Word, but in man-made traditions and a false gospel, which is no Gospel at all. As you know, these people will twist Scripture, when they even cite it, to fit what "Rome" says, instead of what the Lord of all creation says.

There comes a point when we are expending our honest efforts futilely on people who cannot see or hear God's Word, as you well know.

God bless you, FRiend. Stand firm until the end.

91 posted on 04/06/2013 9:10:26 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: vladimir998
Now you are just being silly and evasive.

If you can't find it in the link I gave you (Council of Trent: Catechism for Parish Priests) then OK. It's in there, from Catholic tradition.

You wanted a better source, I gave it to you.

You wrote:

“I did notice you gave references, but did not quote the Scriptures.”

Does that change the truth of scripture? You do realize your excuse makes you look rather small, right?

Getting a bit personal, aren't you?

LOL, you posted NO truth of scripture, just numbers. I'm not going to look them up as I said, if you want to get a point across with scripture, do it with scripture, not just references.

Sorry, the quotes you will find in Catholic doctrine are NOT my interpretation, just words quoted which you don't wish to look at in Catholic context.

I gave you the link, I could copy and paste the words for you but you deny they exist apparently because they were quoted by someone you don't like.

Most of your post makes no sense re what I said, it seems to have been twisted quite a bit in order to put words in my mouth. It just goes around and around in an attempt to prove purgatory.

I'm sorry to get you so angry.

The issue is whether or not that forgiveness, which has already happened, has been applied to us yet. That’s what we ask for when we come to Jesus.
Well are you ready to come to Jesus?

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you--Matt 7:7

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will eat with him, and he with me.--Rev 3:20

Jesus will take you just as you are.

You can be cleansed by the grace of God.

Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.--Matt 5:48.

92 posted on 04/06/2013 9:12:05 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: Syncro

You’re the one who said you were quoting official Catholic documents when you were not. When called on it, you say, like Hilary Clinton “big deal.” “What difference does it make?”

It’s called “intellectual honesty.”

Until you admit your error, no one can take you seriously. You serve as a microcosm of your late hero’s similar intellectual honesty.


93 posted on 04/06/2013 9:20:19 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave

I thought I was.

I cleared that up.

The message is still the same from Trent, Vatican I and Vatican II.

Punishment in purgatory.

I certainly hope you are familiar with that teaching!

Jesus took it all when he went to the cross.

I disagree with you and Maccabee.

I suggest you don’t make people, mere men, into heroes.

My hero is Jesus.

Man, the hate on this thread for a Christian that just passed away is astounding.


94 posted on 04/06/2013 9:31:16 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: WXRGina
Thank you WXRGina.

Son of man, you dwell in the midst of a rebellious house, who have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.--Ezekiel 12:2

Having eyes, see you not? and having ears, hear you not?...--Mark 8:18

Thanks for Galatians 1, how fitting. Paul is amazing.
95 posted on 04/06/2013 9:39:06 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: Syncro

I don’t think of it as punishment as much as being a bath of fire. It’s necessary. And it will happen.

Do you think you will enter God’s Presence in the exact same state you are in now?

You said that Jesus accepts you as you are. I agree with that, that we are loved as we are. But I also believe that Jesus will change me. He will purify me.

It won’t be pretty or easy.

But I will be purified at some point before I enter Heaven.

Do you disagree with that?


96 posted on 04/06/2013 9:41:48 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


97 posted on 04/06/2013 9:47:46 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: SoothingDave
OK, bath of fire, that is stated in a Catholic dissertation on purgatory.

When we die, we give up the physical body and then reside in a spiritual body.

Take what I say as you will, my words are based on my study of the Bible.

You said that Jesus accepts you as you are. I agree with that, that we are loved as we are. But I also believe that Jesus will change me. He will purify me.
Yes, he loves us just as we are, warts and all.

But He loves us too much to leave us that way.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments, and do them." (Ezekiel 36:26-27)
IMO, this is what happens when a person becomes a Christian. I know it happened to me.

I waited a long time and was very sincere when I finally realized that Jesus has the "formulae" for salvation and everlasting life.

I repented of my sins and gave my life over to Him.

He DID change out my heart. He did "purify" me. He took all of my sins and I was forgiven and cleansed, washed in the Blood of Jesus so to speak.

I was a new person, the old "man" was gone.

Romans 6:6--Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that we should no longer serve sin.

Then the process went on, and a lot of other things happened and it was fantastic. But that's another story...

I believe when we die we go to a spiritual "world" with God.

At that time we enter into a life without time, because God lives outside of time and I believe that is where he has us go.

So it's my understanding that there could be no "time" to spend in purgatory because time will not exist.

I don't need explained to me how purgatory works, I'm fine not knowing...

Do you think you will enter God’s Presence in the exact same state you are in now?

I don't think any Christian could answer that with an unqualified "yes" and so my answer is no.

I'm not sure how the transformation works, but I do know that God's ways are not our ways, and no matter how much we think we have it figured out, I really doubt it.

But I know that God does things in a "twinkling of an eye" and so I think that He has a way to work out our situation when we pass over to spend eternity in His presence.

Of course we have to be purified to enter into the presence of God, because He cannot look upon sin, which is why He sent His Son, Jesus.

I think the "pretty or easy" part will depend on what our walk with God is like at the moment we die.

(I don't expect you or others I have bumped heads with a bit on this thread to agree with all I have said.)

I appreciate the comments to me, and have actually gone a bit too far IMO as this thread isn't about me, you, other posters or divergence beliefs.

It's about mourning a Christian man that I have known about for years (along with the rest of the crew at The Berean Call) who passed away.

RIP Mr. Hunt.

98 posted on 04/06/2013 10:53:16 PM PDT by Syncro ("So?" -Andrew Breitbart [1969-2012] RIP King of The New Media)
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To: Syncro
I think the "pretty or easy" part will depend on what our walk with God is like at the moment we die.

I agree. Catholic thought agrees.

How about that?

I agree that someone's funeral thread is a bad time for any of this. But here we are, so I think I will take a mutual win at this point.

The main thing as this point is that you said you are "purified," while I believe that this process takes all of my life and some more.

So, at this point, and in the week of Easter, Good day.

Jesus Christ is Risen Today, Alleluia
Our triumphant Holy Day, Alleluia
Who did once upon the Cross, Alleluia
Suffer to redeem our loss, Alleluia

99 posted on 04/06/2013 11:05:25 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: vladimir998
My wife is Filipina and came from as strong a Catholic nation as any could be ... and they don't even KNOW about purgatory.

Are there different kinds of Catholic?

100 posted on 04/07/2013 2:04:04 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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