Posted on 05/31/2013 2:44:05 PM PDT by NYer
Do our Catholic children and most adults know what these images teach?
All of us know one of the elephants in the room of the Catholic Church. Our religious education programs are not handing on the essence of our Catholic Faith, our parents are befuddled about their role in handing on the faith and the materials we use are vapid or if good do not make an impression on young minds. We are afraid of asking for memorization and thus most don't remember anything they've learned about God and Church other than some niceties and feel good emotions.
I teach each class of our grades 1-6 (we don't have 7th or 8th) each Thursday, rotating classes from week to week. For the last two years I have used Baltimore Catechism #1 as my text book. It is wonderful to use with children and it is so simple yet has so much content. If Catholics, all Catholics, simply studied Baltimore Catechism #1, we would have very knowledgeable Catholics.
These past two years I've used Baltimore Catechism #2 with our adult religious program which we call Coffee and Conversation following our 9:30 AM Sunday Mass, which coincides with our CCD program which we call PREP (Parish Religious Education Program).
This #2 book has more content and is for middle school, but upper elementary school children must have been more capable of more serious content back when this book was formulated and used through the mid 1960's because it is a great book to use with adults and not childish at all. We all use this same book as a supplemental book for the RCIA because it is so clear, nobly simple and chocked full of content!
Yes, there are some adjustments that need to be made to some chapters, but not that many, in light of Vatican II and the new emphasis we have on certain aspects of Church that are not present in the Baltimore Catechism. But these are really minor.
What is more important though is that when the Baltimore Catechism was used through the mid 1960's it was basically the only book that was used for children in elementary and junior high school. It was used across the board in the USA thus uniting all Catholics in learning the same content. There was not, in other words, a cottage industry of competing publishing houses selling new books and different content each year.
The same thing has occurred with liturgical music, a cottage industry of big bucks has developed around the sale of new hymnals, missalettes and new music put on the open market for parishes to purchase. It is a money making scheme.
Why do our bishop allow this to happen in both liturgical music and parish catechesis? The business of selling stuff to parishes and making mega bucks off of it is a scandal that has not be addressed.
In the meantime, our liturgies suffer and become fragmented because every parish uses a different resource for liturgical music and the same is true of religious formation, everyone uses something different of differing quality or no quality at all.
Isn't it time to wake up and move forward with tried and true practices that were tossed out in favor of a consumerist's approach to our faith that has weakened our liturgies, our parishes and our individual Catholics?
I’m serious if I drift off the reservation, please pull me back. :)
So can you return to my question?
“LOL! Your few paragraphs, plucked out of the entire life’s work of a Doctor of the Catholic Church”
Here is what the good Doctor concluded from his life’s work of study: “Why dost thou ready thine teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already.”
No matter how often you assert that it is out of context or in error, it simply is not persuasive since you consistently fail to even attempt at reconciling it with your views. Quoting one sentence over and over again as if it is a response, when Augustine declares later that that sentence is figurative, does not help your cause.
No assertion that St. Augustine was somehow a proto-Protestant or a Crypto-Calvinist will be taken as anything other than a wishful hallucination.
“No assertion that St. Augustine was blah blah blah”
“Why dost thou ready thine teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already.” (Augustine)
“Thank you for reaffirming my point of you using a few lines taken out of context”
But I thought you said it was a few paragraphs of out of context quotes:
“LOL! Your few paragraphs,”
So is it lines, or paragraphs? And a “few” would suggest at least 3. But, I’m pretty sure I provided a lot more than that.
Thanks for reaffirming my view that you just want to insult and belittle your opponents instead of addressing the facts as they actually stand.
Not only that ,Augustine wrote the following later on from where GPH lifted it from Augustine’s writing on the Gospel of John
From + Augustine-Gospel Of John
“God gives bread. But what bread? Manna, perhaps? No, but the bread which manna signified, namely, the Lord Jesus Himself. My Father giveth you the true bread.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.xxvi.html
There is no doubt Augustine was talking about Eucharist since he wrote plenty about the Real Presence
Give it up, Greetings_Puny_Humans and quote your own father John Calvin- we won’t need to twist what he says since Calvin convicts himself on un- Christian gnosticism often enough!
“There is no doubt Augustine was talking about Eucharist since he wrote plenty about the Real Presence”
No, he was referring to Jesus Christ. Here’s the whole paragraph:
” “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, not Moses gave you bread from heaven, but my Father gave you bread from heaven. For the true bread is He that cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world.” The true bread then is He that giveth life to the world; and the same is the meat of which I have spoken a little before,—“Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life.” Therefore, both that manna signified this meat, and all those signs were signs of me. Ye have longed for signs of me; do ye despise Him that was signified? Not Moses then gave bread from heaven: God gives bread. But what bread? Manna, perhaps? No, but the bread which manna signified, namely, the Lord Jesus Himself. My Father giveth you the true bread. “For the bread of God is He that cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. Then said they unto Him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.” Like that Samaritan woman, to whom it was said, “Whoso drinketh of this water shall never thirst.” She, immediately understanding it in reference to the body, and wishing to be rid of want, said, “Give me, O Lord, of this water;” in the same manner also these said, “O Lord, give us this bread;” which may refresh us, and yet not fail.”
Notice how Augustine connects it with the “living water” from John 4 that Christ promises that a man must drink for eternal life. Yet, Augustine notes that “she immediately [understood] it in reference to the body,” rather than through spiritual drinking of living water through faith. Augustine continues:
““They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” For He had said to them, “Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life.” “What shall we do?” they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already. (Augustine, Tractate 25)
Augustine asserts that to eat and drink Jesus Christ is done through faith.
Thus, if you want this to refer to the Eucharist, I am totally in favor of you doing so, since it ruins your theology.
“Give it up, Greetings_Puny_Humans and quote your own father John Calvin- we won’t need to twist what he says since Calvin convicts himself on un- Christian gnosticism often enough!”
LOL
You don’t seem to grasp how things were interpreted during the time period and how they flowed into the beliefs.
Until you can grasp this it’s pointless to waste my time with people blinded by rabid anti Catholicism.
I will pray for you at Adoration this week fro removal of the blindfold
It completely depends on your screed du jour whether you mischaracterize a line, a few lines, a paragraph, a few paragraphs or a few Early Church Fathers.
The attempt to use a small portion of the works of St. Augustine as a "proof text" is as intellectually dishonest and similar attempts to cobble together entire Protestant doctrines on the whole cloth of an out of context Scriptural proof text.
Its funny how fast you are to throw St. Augustine and the other ECFs under the bus as a kook when any of their actual teachings are explored. On second thought it is not funny, it is pitiful.
“You don’t seem to grasp how things were interpreted during the time period”
So, using your Ultra-Smart Catholic reinterpreter, how about you “reinterpret” for me how this is compatible with the Roman Catholic view of John 6, line by line if you can:
“They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” For He had said to them, “Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life.” “What shall we do?” they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already. (Augustine, Tractate 25)
In particular, you’re going to have to find a way to reinterpret “This is then to eat the meat” into “This is not how you eat the meat, that has to be done on Sunday and officiated by a Catholic Priest.” And again, “Why does thou ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already” into “Prepare thine teeth and stomach. Believe, and on Sunday you will then eat the body of Christ.”
Good luck on that.
“I will pray for you at Adoration this week fro removal of the blindfold”
LOL, I don’t think God is going to put the blindfold on based on your vain prayers during your idol worship.
“Its funny how fast you are to throw St. Augustine and the other ECFs under the bus as a kook when any of their actual teachings are explored.”
To be honest, most of the time you Catholics throw Augustine under the bus when his actual teachings are explored. You’re one of the rare types that likes to sit there and hold on to a vain argument till the bitter end.
The irony is that you do not appear to understand the difference between the concept of substance and the property that St. Augustine was trying to teach with respect to the Eucharist. Perhaps if you had an actual understanding of his writings as a body of work, you wouldn't be forming your opinions based upon the few snippets you have found on dishonest anti-Catholic websites and then trying to defend them with other snippets gleaned from a speed reading exercise.
Easy! Jesus does not parish. He gives us Himself in The Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist
Blessed Augustine understood this too
Don't bother posting me until you can do so in a kind manner!
“you have found on dishonest anti-Catholic websites”
Actually, I got this from reading Augustine’s works. I didn’t get it from a “dishonest anti-Catholic website.” Unless Augustine himself is dishonest. You keep making assertions, but you’ve punted on direct challenges to address the words of Augustine multiple times. You’re just talking to talk, and it’s tiresome.
“Easy! Jesus does not parish. He gives us Himself in The Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist”
Oops, no, you still didn’t address anything Augustine actually said. If Jesus gives Himself in the Eucharist, how can Augustine assert that the command “Believe on Him whom the Father has sent” is to “labor for that meat which perishes not.”
“Don’t bother posting me until you can do so in a kind manner!”
Don’t bother posting to me until you can accurately quote Augustine and make logical conclusions based on what he wrote, and not what you wish he wrote!
Here is something I think might help you..
Through the power of Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I come against every source of sin in my life. I ask you Lord Jesus to send forth an assignment of warring angels to strike down and destroy every demonic entity that has been influencing my sinful behaviors of envy, criticism, impatience, resentment, pride, rebellion, stubbornness, unforgiveness, gossip, disobedience, strife, violence, divorce, accusation, anger, manipulation, jealousy, greed, laziness, revenge, coveting, possessiveness, control, retaliation, selfishness, deceitfulness, deception, dishonesty, unbelief, seduction, lust, pornography, masturbation, idolatry and witchcraft.
May your warring angels strike down and destroy every demonic influence that has contributed to my physical and psychological infirmities of nerve disorder, lung disorder, brain disorder or dysfunction, AIDS, cancer, hypochondria, hyperactivity, depression, schizophrenia, fatigue, anorexia, bulimia, addictions, gluttony, perfectionism, alcoholism, self-abuse, sexual addictions, sexual perversions, attempted suicide, incest, pedophilia, lesbianism, homosexuality, adultery, homophobia, confusion, ignorance, procrastination, self-hatred, isolation, loneliness, ostracism, paranoia, nervousness, passivity, indecision, doubt, oppression, rejection, poor self-image, anxiety, shame, timidity and fear.
I arise today through the power of the Lord Jesus Christ and ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit’s gifts of peace, patience, love, joy, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, humility, forgiveness, goodness, fortitude, discipline, truth, relinquishment, good self-image, prosperity, charity, obedience, a sound mind, order, fulfillment in Christ, acceptance of self, acceptance of others, trust, freedom from addictions, freedom of having-to-control, freedom from shame, wholeness, wellness, health, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and the light and life of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
WHY ARE OUR CATHOLIC LAITY SO ILLITERATE...
I haven't seen any posters here claim to not be part of the LAITY, so expect what you have been given as SOP of the Catholic laity.
I wish a Catholic Priest (or some other Authority, like a pope, or hay maybe the retired pope that quit. He's not real busy these days...) would post on threads on the Religion Forum.
The Mormons sent some of their top leaders to debate Christians here some time back.
Or I would settle even for a couple of the members of the Magicterium.
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